Internet Muppets

In the UK we have a term for people who have little sense of humour or generally p*** people off, they are called "Muppets". Why is it that we seem to attract Muppets to this Forum like droves.

Take for instance last night, I made what I thought was quite a humorous comment about banning Aussies as they were causing problems, back came a muppet who thought I was being serious. Now being from the Antipodies myself the Aussies are great people who generally have a real and quick wit about them, where did we get him from.

My whole beef in this thread is to say to all, lighten up a bit, forums are supposed to be fun, a place where you banter each other and talk about commonalities, at the moment its all about " Muppets " putting pen to paper without thinking through their thoughts.

Now I have just had a thought, just maybe I have a screwed sense of humour, please someone out confirm that maybe is not the case. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I think the Aussie response is due to some run-ins that Wouter has had in the past on the Australian Taipan forum.

It is an open forum. Whoever registers really can post what they want.

And that is exactly the sort of reply I am talking about, blaming Wouter for something that happened years ago, get real, this forum needs to talk about issues like boats, sail design, I'm having a great time in Barrier Reef, that sort of thing, not bitter and twisted issues that should have been dealt with years ago.

I'm fed up with people writing things without thinking what the consequences are ie putting brain in neutral and hiding behind the anonymous face of an internet Forum. Lets cut out the petty rubbish and start talking about real F16 issues.

I'm cynical and suspicious, maybe it just comes with old age. I think the intent of the thread in question is malicious. I've felt for a long time that for most, the F16 is a better platform than the F18, that the 16 will render the 18 obsolete, just as it did at Hobie.

To me, that thread is a hateful, "nip it in the bud" assualt on the F16 class. Happily, it is too little and much too late.

IMO, the intent is dishonest and speaks directly to the character of the writer.

Like I said in another thread, GO back and read the thread in question. Read it properly and you will see who is the antagonist, the one who is writing inflamatory remarks and generally dragging the discussion away from the topic

No. You are not in charge here. Your intentions are transparent. Your efforts are wasted.

You have got to be kidding me!!!

If that is truly the attitude within the class then you are a lost cause.

When F16 yearly production amounts to 10% of the yearly production of F18 I will be amazed. Until then it will remain a figment of your very lurid imagination..

<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Macca imm 10% of F18, it wouldn't surprise me if we are not there already, what are the exact figures of F18 production, at a guess I would be surprised if it were in the 200's pa, correct me if I'm wrong with an exact figure

200??? from one manufacturer? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Let's see...considering the F18's had a good 10 year head start and are built and supported by BOTH of the largest beach cat builders in the world, Hobie and Nacra, as well as several others, I would say the small but growing, F16 class is doing quite well, all with no support from either Hobie or Nacra...

And just like the A cats, Hobie 16's, Waves, etc. the F16 platform is NOT for everyone, "variety is the spice of life".

Personaly, I would not want us all to be limited to a sigle type cat, be it F16 or anything else, so as to which class is bigger or what ever, I really don't care, as long as I enjoy my ride! I like to see all the different types of cats and I enjoy sailing them all, when the conditions are right for that type.

You are wasting your time argueing with anyone who is not a class member and has no intention of becoming one...

No from all manufacturers, its a serious question as I think people may not realise just how few F18's are sold each year.

My intention is to uncloak, not argue. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

This, <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />, is all I have left for the fellow.

Macca,

I have send you a private message offering the truce once more.

I see no point in furthering this situation that is in my eyes only causing you more personal damage.

This may sound weird to some but I learned that when the battle is lost that the losing party must be offered protection from further damage and safe passage out of the situation. That is what I'm offering you.

It is my sincere hope that you take us up on the offer.

Wouter

Strange how in some threads you state that you need top sailors on the F16's to promote them at big events and when you get one you do your level best to piss them off! Let's see the F16 demonstrate it's ability at Eurocat, Texel etc. this year rather than on this forum, surely that's the best way to win friends?
BTW MarkP, how is that flatter and faster mainsail? Hope no one minds that it was changed by a man with a strong link to Nacra!!!!

hey I have been beaten by the best of them.. Bruce "Miss Nylex" Proctor, Jim "home'n'hosed" Dachler, Brian Lewis & Warren Rock.. Does that count?

Ssssssshhhhhhhhh. We've had our fair quota of Bun fights recently lets not start another. I'm hoping to check out my mainsail this Sunday as the previous race was called off due to 30+mph winds. I was also at a function in the Bristol Channel Yacht Club at the time getting very merry on Champagne. If the mainsail isn't as fast as I hope it'll be all your fault as in a previous post you mentioned I was over powered (which I was). I have also ordered a new custom made F16 Spinnaker from Grant Piggott and it will be ready prior to Carnac. The Luff is longer than my present Landy and it will also be a flatter cut than say a T or F18 it will be fairly similar to a Spitfire Spi.
As for making an impression at Carnac that will really depend on the conditions in my case. I reckon I could give most Club F18, Tornado sailors a run for their money when the wind is around 12mph i.e, I'm full out on the trap and their still sitting in. Any more and I hope the alterations to the mainsail will help my progress.
I'm not going to comment about pissing other sailors off!! I have my personal views on that topic and at present they will remain personal. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Don't forget to look at the F18 website, all the Mumbles events are posted on the Calendar so make sure you turn up as revenge is sweet <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hey Mark, I thought Sarah and I were banned!!! I love sailing at the Mumbles so will definately try and get there again this year, hopefully a few of your guys will make it over to our regatta too. Will be interesting to see how the new main works out, hope it is good. We also have a new main after a bit of an incident last nov.....
We'd like to do Carnac as well but I don't think the funds are going to stretch so will probably go to Bala instead. Wouldn't mind a go on your beastie next time I'm over though.........

Bala!!! It's easier to get to Carnac <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> But saying that it'll probably be all I'll be able to afford next year, especially if Clare gets to hear about my recent purchases. As for the "ban" it terminates when you either cross the Severn Bridge or buy me a pint (The pint is the cheapest option) See you soon
Mark

Hi Wayne
From your reply last night to the Aussies ,and the way the thread was being taken by all concerned how else would you expect us to take it .Maybe a simply putting a few "Instant Graemlins" in your posts would help ,We cannot tell that you are laughing on your side of the computer screen
<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Regards Richard

Wayne, I would say the opposite is true. I know one manufacturer has capacity to build on F18 a day and it's currently servicing a waiting list.

The F18 World council has put the annual build at between 600 and 650. Let me know when you hit 10% of that...

Hmm, 600 to 650 pr year. Great for the F18 class!
What I want to know is how the statistics look for the last 7 years. I am certain the numbers are available as measurement certificates costs money and such things should go into the accounting books. Anybody who has the numbers or knows where to find them?

Ey, macca, whats with the derogatory comments to a honest question. You sure deal a rough hand yourself for one complaining about being treated roughly. BTW: Another honest question. How did this sudden urge to stay on the F16 forum come about when you are not interested in the class? What was the turning point making you decide to hang out here? It sure has to be something major with all the heat you have brought down on yourself.

Wouter,

If what you sent me as a PM was a truce, I would hate to see your demand for surrender!

I am happy to keep playing.

How are you going with that answer on 3DL for me?

As Macca indicates in his most recent post; he declines on the truce offer made to him through private channels.

He (or the parties he represents) was offered an ending to the bickering and a serious and respectful discussion offline and through official channels of the issues he raised. This would also include an in depth analysis of his points and the assureance to adress them possibly through class rule changes if such a need is discovered.

Basically he was offered a seat at the table while not being a F16 boat owner or a F16 class member, and he would have had all the time and attention of F16 class members that he could possibly need to argue his case.

Basically the idea was to setup a restricted forum area where all F16 class members and class officials had access to but would be away from the general public as to avoid any grandstanding from by any party. A moderator would be mutually agreed upon and he or she would control the discussion according to standing scientific discourse. The discussion would have been held under the "one warning and then you're out" rule, which really does not favour Wouters side ! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Anyway, it is my opinion that this path would have constituted his very best shot at having his points heard, considering the present state of the public forum and the general opinion.


I'm puzzled as why Macca would pass on that offer if he is really serious about the points he raises.

However, he has made his decision and refuses to accept this offer that he calls a "surrender"

I guess this ends everything.

Wouter

Wouter,

The PM you sent to me was rude to say the least. You really need to work on your communication skills if you are representing the ideas you have outlined in your post above.

I would be more than happy to have a forum whereby genuine ideas and concerns can be voiced and the future path of the class can be mapped. I did think (clearly mistaken) that this forum was such a place... But if the responses thus far to my and others views are a guide to any further discussion I see little point in taking the matter to a new forum.

No, it wasn't.


By the way, the offer can be renewed if you so desire.

Wouter

What's going on.... Macca has only expressed his opinion on what he thinks might be good for our Class!!!! I have listened to it and taken onboard what he is suggesting and I've also listened to opposing views. Why not draw a line in the sand and agree to disagree <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> and lets just carry on discussing the virtues of the Corinthian sport of sailing.

Andrew,
The build of 600-650 per year is a little different to what I was told by Greg Goodall.
While watching the racing at Zandvoort and waiting for his Viper to arrive he told me that F18 had been selling 500-600 per year but he doubts if 200 F18 had been sold globally in the last year.
This makes it look like the bottom has fallen out of the F18 market.
Now I don't know if this statement is right or not but I assumed Greg would know what he was talking about.

Good morning Phill
It's a full moon here and about 0 degrees outside. Just contemplating whether I need another drink before hitting the sack!!! Looks like a cold sail tomorrow 5-6 degrees C and 9-12mph wind. I'm not quite sure if I want the Race Officer and Rescue Boat crew to turn up!!
All the best
Mark

Hi Mark,
Sounds like that drink is a good idea.
Hope to have one or two or....... at Mumbles in August.

Sailing in 5 or 6 deg. Wow that is commitment.

Phill,

I know of one manufacturer that is making a boat a day and currently has a wait list for boats.

now if the other two are even making half that each plus the smaller builders you would be suprised at how many boats are being sold.

There is now serious talk of increasing the number of places available at the Worlds from the current level of 160 boats as the level of interest is higher this year then previously.

I think the bottom is still firmly in place.

What F16 should be doing is looking at why F18 is so popular and trying to utilise these lessons to make F16 a large international class like F18

Though of course correlation does not imply causation.

The F18 World council has stated that the annual build is in excess of 600 boats.

Fact: one builder is making in excess of 200 boats per year.

So going from Phill's statement that there wouldn't be 200 boats sold in the year and your quote that "just because one is doing so doesn't mean the others are doing it too" That must mean that the rest of the builders combined are producing Zero boats.... business must be tough for them hey?

This arguemnt is absurd. To have F16 dispute the size and strength of the benchmark catamamarn class in the world today smacks of jealosy.

I still wouldn't care if the F18 class was producing 100.000 new boats every year.

F16's are not F18's and that is actually by intent !

I also don't really understand Macca's anxiety. If anything F18 class has been selling the same numbers of boats annually for what, 10 years now ? Didn't make much impact on the F16 creation and growth over the last 6 years so why should we suddenly grow to fear it now ?

Come to think of it. It can just as easily be argued that the F18 is actually following in the footsteps of the F16's (as they should !). We had wingmasts before they did, we had fully battened selftacking jibs before they did, we had carbon rudders and boards before they did, we had cascading downhaul systems before they did, we had lightweight booms with mainsheet strap before they did and we have carbon masts before they do.

Actually, when looking at the situation from that perspective the F16 class has skipped an entire arms race that has been raging in the F18 class for a good 10 years.

When including the Taipan class in this comparison, the superiour technology used in the F16's predates the creation of the F18 class by another 10 years ! Viewed that way, the then newly created F18 class, with 180 kg weight, pin head sails, teardrop shaped masts, non-cascading downhaul, etc was nothing more then a giant step backwards.

And now he want us to follow that example, ehhh benchmark ? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


I say that the F16 class scores another point in comparison by doing it right the first time around !

Wouter

Wouter,

That post above perfectly sums up why F16 is doomed to an existence on the fringe of catamaran sailing.

If you were so much smarter than all the other classes to come before you why isn't F16 bigger than the few scattered pockets of activity that currently exist?

I am sorry to lump F16 in with Wouter here but unless someone else in the class assists him with his brain to keyboard linkage I have no alternative.

I personally see no long term security with the F18 class (primary issue being massive weight of the platform). I am not at all surprised that the “big guys” want a heavier F16 so they can build them using existing F18 parts. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Andrew Macpherson, professional sailor with commercial ties to catamaran building companies, you keep being a public nuisance here, so I'll repeat:


Give us facts, not your opinions which by the way goes against what Greg Goodall says. For all we know you might be quoting numbers from 2004 while Greg was talking about 2006. Oh, and we dont question the size and strength of the F18 class, but we are asking what the real numbers are, since you brought it up. Facts are good, you choosing to turn your own question around so it looks like the F16 class question the validity of the F18 class is as absurd as an non-member coming here telling the class it will have to forget about its class rules. It is you stirring the pot here creating these controversies, and you are very good at it.


How about it?


Your behaviour here reflects poorly on those who hire you to sail for them. You are not acting very professional. You have become a new Sam Evans for the F16 class.

Macca I'm not sure who you are, my guess is that you are quite young, probably in your mid 20's, probably pretty good at most things you do, probably quite vocal and think yourself as being fairly important being part of the " professional sailors " league of gentleman.

At your age I guess I was pretty much the same. Now some 30 years on I do have a few regrets, one thing principally cost me a job which would have then made me a millionaire. That one thing was opening my mouth a little too often with a little too much bravado and a little too much I'm an important guy.

Carry on as you are and I would bet you will be unemployable within a few years. Listen to a few of the older wiser sages who have been there and done it ( and there are more than few on this forum ), learn to listen and moderate yourself a little, you will in the long run be much more employable and will be much better liked.

Now I'm not trying to character assasinate you here but by you continuing to post with lots of ifs and maybes, never hard facts eg the precise number your mystery manufacturer makes F18's per year ( and yes one only has to look at that companies balance sheet to verify it ) firmly still puts you in the " Muppet " bracket.

Now Wouter, I've just had a bit of a pop at Macca for continuing this pretty pointless debate, You in my veiw are also a Muppet for not listening what others are saying, back off and limit your postings to statistics and engineering detail, the time you spend on this forum could so easily be spent much more wisely developing the F12 class or even better enjoying a drink and socialising with people.

Wayne, Your insight so far from the truth.

How about you let me handle my employability in the future... I reckon I have it under control.

As I have stated here several times now: I am here as an individual.

Rolf, The F18 world council stated the build numbers in December 2007. But you won't believe me so how about you go and ask them yourself. Wayne, as to publishing balance sheets of privately held companies... well I think you knew the answer to that one before you made the comment. Why cant you accept something that I state as a fact? I have not been shown previously to be telling fibs.

Just because you don't like/agree with my statement does not make it a Lie!

I have been stating facts in here the whole time yet I am constantly fielding accusations of lying. One example is the 3DL issue. I have stated only facts on the matter yet Wouter has outright called me a liar on the matter. I have asked him to disprove me and then he goes quiet on the matter.
How about we use that as the "litmus test", You prove me wrong on that issue and I will concede and never return to your hallowed forum? If I am right (which I am) you will all stop with the childish liar, liar, pants on fire routine...

Right from my first post I have been acting with the class' bets interest in mind. Those who are so vehemently against my suggestion are the ones that want the class to remain as it is today: Small and unrecognised. My suggestions are aimed at changing that so that the class can become expand and become something of note. I think the best road for F16 to go down includes obtaining ISAF recognised status and ultimately being used as an ISAF youth class, this would trickle down through MNA’s and then there would be some real support both in terms of coaching and funding for youth cat sailing on boats that are more representative of modern cat sailing then the current youth boats.

F16 in its current form will never achieve that status. It is well outside what ISAF are looking for. The changes I suggest are not as bad as many of you think. The boats will still be fast and fun, They will still be easy to handle on the beach, there will just be a lot more of them! Hell they might even be cheaper.

Finally, for the good of F16 someone needs to help Wouter control his brain to keyboard connection. He does way more damage to F16 from the “inside” than anyone from the outside could ever hope to do.

Macca,

If you truly want to help the class, buy a boat and join us; Once you sail one, you will find you like it just fine.

If you then want to change the class rules, get a proposl together, get a seconder and then propose it to the GC.

Telling a class that you are not a member of what is in their best interestes is not going to gain much weight until you are a member of that class.

Cheers

Simon

Hey Macca come on in and join us, one thing is for sure, you will not be able to change things as far as weight etc goes until you own a boat, the internet afterall is only a snapshot of personal views. Own a boat, put forth a proposal and all the members will vote, we are a very democratic community.

Anyway why the one man mission to save ourselves, if you are so convinced then set up your own class and get on with it. In 5 years time I hope you will acheive your own personal goals, my personal goal is to continue sailing F16's as they suit my own personal requirements.

You are here as an individual all of a sudden, creating havoc and enjoying a hard time? I know a lot of stuff I would prefer to do before I did something like that, so I have trouble accepting that.

I have a hard time accepting what you say about production numbers for 2007 when Greg say it is a third of what you said. It would be good if you could document what you say. Your credibilty have plummeted since you began this campaign to make the F16 class change it's class rules to accomodate your vision.

The 3DL thing you put so much emphasis on is nothing more than a question of definitions. You are splitting hairs in a very childish way or for your own agenda. It is you who have blown a bi-sentence up to be a major personal issue.

How can you say that you act with the best interest of the class in mind when the class disagrees? How are you acting with the best interest of the class in mind when all you do is poisoning our forum? You have been pointed to the proper procedure numerous times, but you dont want to make a difference. You have even been invited to discuss your opinions with the class in private, but have declined. You are obviously doing what you do for your personal interest or someone elses interest. You being a professional sailor makes this behaviour scandalous. I know you sailed for NACRA last season, but if I was head of NACRA, I sure would not hire someone with your poor manners and jugdement again. In fact, I think I'll make the NACRA resellers I know in person read up on what you have done here so they know what kind of person NACRA chooses to represent them. Dont try to turn this around to be a Wouter issue, you Andrew Macpherson is the issue here.

Guys,

I know I would enjoy sailing an F16, they are great boats, but you need to realise that having a great boat is not a perfect formula for a great class...

F16 would still be a great boat with some changes to foster growth. I seriously doubt you would notice any real performance differences and you would get a ratings benefit as a bonus.

Sam Evans, err.. I mean Andrew, go away. That is a topic for class members.

It is sure alot easier to make a great class that way then trying to do it with a "not-so-great" boat.

Wouter

Not all of a sudden, I have always said that I was here as an individual. You give yourself too much credit if you think a manufacturer would bother with this forum.





I am beyond having to justify the figures with you. I think that if I sent an notarised copy of the build numbers you would still dispute it authenticity. I am confident with the facts, if you want to refute them I suggest you go and do your own research.



Rolf, Wouter called me a Liar on the 3DL comment. I take that very seriously. There is no hair splitting on my part. Its very simple: I stated that a 3DL sail has no Broadseams (the truth) and Wouter claimed that 3DL sails do indeed have Broadseams. If you all want to question my credibility then why aren't you looking at his? He is the one that has made a false statement.



The offer to discuss the matter in private was made in a PM from Wouter that included such Gems as:

Is it any wonder I declined the offer…?




So by that reasoning I should be contacting everyone you deal with in a professional capacity and explain to them that you have been nasty to me on a web forum? Get real mate. I represent myself in this forum and nobody else. (I think I must have said this 5 or 6 times now)

I thought PM's were of a confidential nature between individuals, as you are only to happy to drop Wouters PM to you directly onto the net then may I disclose the following, they are your words to me in a PM virtually at the start of this thread.

"I know where you are coming from, but I have been tasked with assesing F16 as a possible path and one of the criteria is the rules need to be tightened and the weights need to be more realistic for volume production."

Now my guess "being tasked" has to imply being paid or hired buy an employer. Again I think there is more to you than being a bit pesky and arrogant, but rather you have a vested interest in trying to change the present F16 rules ?

Actually I called you " ... a right fool ..." and there is a difference between that and a liar.

Readers can check for themselves :


I said :



Which can be found in this post : http://www.catsailor.com/forums/sho...umber=133244&page=0&vc=1


We all know already that you have a strenious hold on reality, Macca, there is no need to proof it many times over.


Additionally :

Macca = Andrew McPherson

- works for Nacra Europe
- sails/races a dealer supplied Nacra Infusion F18 in EU and AUS
- is by his own admission tasked by a non-F16 entity to change the F16 class (rules)
- was offered a private audience to discuss his (+ associated builder) points in depth but quickly declined.
- is about as much interested in buying a F16 for himself as I am in buying a Hobie Tiger for singlehanding.


Wouter

Andrew, the best thing you can do for yourself is to leave the forum and let time gloss over this. From now on you have nothing to gain but you can always loose.

Yo Andrew, if that was intended to be a response to my comment, you tooootally missed my point.

Mark.

What a fuss about nothing on this forum. Unbelievable. It is only still interesting for people studying psychiatry. Do something useful with your time and energy, ride a bike. In any case, do not react on this message. I will not read it because this was my last visit.

sjon.....I am with you

And you know what, you are right. I am sorry for having contributed, but I dont know what I should have done different. When we loose guys like you from the meeting place of the class, we need to do something.

Ignore him.

I have read through a lot of this stuff, and I STILL have no idea what all this fuss is about. Can somebody please give me links to the specific posts that have caused all this controversy?

I get the impression that it has something to do with minimum boat weight? If so, what is the big deal?

Heck, when I make a suggestion on a forum, usually people just totally ignore me. Why can't you guys do that to this Andrew person if you don't like whatever it is he is saying. And, as I said, I still have no idea what this brouhaha is about.

If you don't want it reincarnated, somebody please send me a private message to enlighten me.

I've met Macca personally (although briefly) and treating him like a troll is IMO not fair since he is probably one of the best sailors on the forum by quite some margin (except for Bundy offcourse!) and knows his stuff.

Ignoring him here does not resolve anything, we might as well continue the discussion and finish it for good. (and please everyone stop taking everything so seriously). <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Anyway. The discussion about 3DL and broadseaming got some people excited but since I never take anyone's word for anything (I work in IT<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />) I decided to form my own opinion.

Here are my own findings (not that anyone cares, but otherwise I spent an hour Googling for nothing;)):
3DL/Broadseaming discussion:
Broadseaming is indeed not used in 3DL sails. I define a seam as the area where two pieces of cloth are sewn together.
Since there is no sewing there cannot be any seams, no discussion there right?
The panels that go onto the 3D mould are shaped to fit but more for practical reasons than for shaping the sail. And if the panels are joined together on the mould this is only temporarily and does not qualify as broadseaming.
Anyone please correct me if i'm wrong, but this is how I understand it.

Boat weight discussion:
In think Macca has a point where he says (If I interpret correctly. Macca?) that there could potentially be an arms race going on all while staying within the class rules.
In theory he is right, you could buy a nice new Blade today and the next day some Bartarelli wannabe comes along and spends $$$ on exotic building materials and totally be The Man and perform total pwnage on the race course.
In practice however this is very unlikely since the spirit of the class is also affordability and class growth.

Did I sum everything up correctly?

In my observation the class wants to be both a development class like the A's and a commercial class like the F18s.
Maybe these just don't go together very well?
If the class wants to grow the rules should be tightened but that goes against the development part (bit of a paradox i guess).

Dont start it all over again!

Yeah Tony, Don't start it again.

Its not good for the gang in here to have someone support me. They prefer it if there is only one target...

neverthless, I appreciate that you actually took the time to do the research instead of throwing some rocks in my direction like the rest.

Actually you said:



Busted doing what exactly? stating a fact?

Wouter you have continually attacked my credibility and knowledge of matters that I have extensive aquired knowledge.

Macca,

You are a well known and well respected sailor, who until a few days ago had only posted in the F16 forum a few times,

In fact 17 posts (I think, I may have slightly miss counted) since 19th Dec 2005, until 10 Feb 2008.

Over the next few days, you come into the F16 forum and post 52 posts of a total of 75;

Now, I agree that you and Wouter have had a bit of a slanging match about 3DL sails and seams and it appears some harsh things have been said via PM. Perhaps time it's to agree with Wouter that it might be a good idea if you don't play in the same bit of the playground.

But you have also been hammering along about the same thing (the weight of the F16) and people who sail the boat keep replying that they are quite happy with the boat at the weight it is.


Now, I think it is time that the current owners of F16’s to agree to disagree with you.

You want the F16 to get all lardy and difficult to drag around the boat park by us single handers (does your vision of the F16 even contain the single handed option?)


We, the current owners, whom have the right to vote on class issues, want the all up weight to stay the same.


time to call it to an end, you want one thing, the owners want something else

being a troll and being a reasonable sailor aren't mutually exclusive...

If I have to be a muppet then I want to be Beaker!!!

You gotta to love a puppet that can't help but blow himself up!!!

Allthough, one has to love the shrimp too.

lol

Actually Tony, I think you are fundamentally wrong in two lines of reasoning.





That is the same as arguing that spinnakers don't use "broad seaming" because here the edges are now glued together rather then stitched when of course the identically designed spi's of 8 years ago and older did use "broad seaming" as they were the last ones to use stitching.

Incidentily, there are are many examples of descriptions becoming to include more general situations then the one that gave them their meaning initially. For example welding. Was defined initially only for steel, but now includes all kinds of other metals and also plastics. In the latter case the proces doing the joining is significantly different from metal welding, although both methods achieve fixation by locally smelting parts by heating.

Interestingly enough a weld on a thin sheet of plastic is called a seam again. Think of any inflatable rubber boats were many people easily say things like : "The skin ruptured on the SEAM". Your argument would even have it that the use of the word SKIN is wrong here as only animals have skins. Another example of an identifier covering more and more general situations AND having been accepted as such by many many many years.

The core intent of broad seaming is to introduce more cloth locally where a flat sheet has to cover a longer distance from egde to egde when forced into a 3D shape. The usage of stichting is not a key part of this, it is just a way of fixing the panels together out of a series of alternatives. Using a different method of fixation like glueing doesn't chance in any way the intent and result of broad seaming. In that sense Rolf initially used this identifier and he was totally right in doing so.

Actually, this practical reason is the same as shaping as only a shaped sheet of material can follow a 3D surface in a smooth manner. So shaping was the intent here because of the practical need to have it follow a 3D surface smoothly and it was done by a method that as good as everybody calls .... .

Hence my earlier argument, does a rose by any other name smell less sweet.






Again, the erronous corellation is made between something being expensive and something being more performant.

To this reasoning I gave the counterexample of a kilogram of aluminium (or lead) weighting the same as a kilogram of gold. The fact that gold is much more expensive does not in any way make it perform better or prefered or even a precursor to an arms race.

In fact both gold and lead have very similar ballastic properties, yet we all shoot lead at olympic contests and not with golden slugs ! That is without the gun classes having any rules against the use of gold in slugs.

The F16 rules work in the same manner. Mister Bartelli can have his beams made of gold or platinum if he wants too, just as his shower taps are, but when staying within the set of F16 rules these beams won't preform any better then cheap aluminium ones. Now, Mr Bartelli is not stupid and so he won't even try. If any other fool does then the only result he will achieve is wasting alot of his money.


Additionally, some people are great sailors but that does not in any way make them equally skilled or knowlegdable engineers or scientists. The same works in reverse of which I'm a good example myself. You will not see Micheal Schumacher telling his engineers how to do their job and not be laughed out of the stable. Making suggestions is all fine, but persisting at making obvious fawlty suggestions is making a fool out of oneself.

Wouter

Gohh, dont feed the troll Wouter, or we will never see the end of this muppet infestation. He has no credibility left so let him die from lack of recognition.

Wouter,

Lets stick to the 3DL question. Broadseams or not?

I'm replying to Tony, Rolf, and not Macca.

Tony can not by classified as a troll by a long shot.

Wouter

Aww come on Wouter, I still want to play!

You know how to make me go away, just show me the Broadseams in a 3DL sail and I will never return to the F16 forum <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

If I'm gonna be a muppet I might as well have an avatar to match <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Wouter:
You got me on the spi's glueing thing!
I guess the definition of the word "seam" depends of the context of where it is used.
This is what the dictionary says about it:
"Seam: joint consisting of a line formed by joining two pieces ".
For me there is no further debate on that word, that's final.

From the information I gathered it seems (no pun intended) that the shape of a panel used in a 3DL sail is not fundamental to the shape of the sail as a finished product, as the 3D mould is.
In theory there could be a 1cm gap between the panels and it would still work as a sail (a crappy one yes, but still a sail).

There is overlap between both manufacturing methods that causes confusion and debate but I am convinced they are fundamentally different.

Anyway, I would not refer to a 3DL sail as a "panel sail" as I would a regular broadseamed sail (eg F18 main).


About the rest of your post:
If I win the lottery I will get myself a gold F16! (should make for a nice insurance policy!).
I personally think that having stricter rules would leave less open to interpretation, there are still a few wars running about what a particular book says on something.
If for example aluminum is the best material for a mast, why not put that in the rules?
Maybe I am just either too thick or practical to understand these things, I will let you decide which it is <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Actually even a perfectly flat (hard board) panel can work as a sail, the only difference being that it is less efficient then a shaped sail. So that criterium, being able to work as a sail, is not very useful.


Also, the shape of the panel (however you define that) is absolutely vital in determining the final shape of the finished product. How can I show this to you without having to use more arguing ?

This might work !

Think of the similarities between 3D sailmaking and the tortured ply method of building hulls. Of course the latter is also know as "stitch and glue building" but that is a sidetrack. Go to this link to see the 3D mould and the panel shapes :

http://www.catsailor.com/forums/sho...er=132859&Main=132040#Post132859

Note the similarities between 3D sailmaking using a 3D mould and the creation of these F12 hulls using again a 3D mould. Actually in principle there is no difference.

Now there are two mind experiments for you :

-1- You try to get flat panels to sit right in that mould without shaping the edges of the panels.

-2- You try to flatten any combination of two or more shaped panels that have been joined and taken from the mould.


You can't do the first without significantly curved egdes (broad seaming)

You can't do the second without rupturing or even totally distroying the connection at the seams.

The mould is only there to keep the panels properly curved and positioned relative to eachtother to allow the bonding (seams) to be created. After the bond has set (is finished) the mould can be taken away and the the internal material forces around the seams will maintain the overall 3D shape.

With regular sailmaking the sections are just pinned (or glued) together at the seam and bundled up while being moved under the sewing machine, much like our mothers did with our clothing ! With 3D sail making the sections are pinned over a 3D mould while being glued into place. That is not enough to qualify as a fundamental difference (between 3D and regular sailmaking).



This is the way things are when making 3D shapes from any 2D "ingredients"; as all sailmakers do because the cloth and monofilm suppliers all produce flat sheets/films; possibly bend over rolls or folded up for easy transportation.

The only way out of this stranglehold is 3D polymerisation (similar to casting metals) OR reshaping the panels by heating them and resetting the material structure to a new overall shape (similar to forging metals).

The first implies that the material is directly created chemcially in a 3D mould of the sail. As of yet there are no such machines and it is extremely unlikely that such a machine will ever be build for a sailboat sail (notice the singular as any you will need a new machine for every new sail design). Of course such machines are created for some mass produced elements like automobile parts and electrical wall outlets.

The second method has the problem of not being fundamentally different for thin sheets; look at it this way. Forging a thin sheet of material to a reflect a different contour is no different then simply cutting the resulting contour from an unforged piece of thin sheet. Different paths, yet the same final results. Of course forging pastics runs into several other problems that make it much less attractive then it is for metals. A very large portion of plastics don't take well to heating for example.

Wouter

Forget part of your post sorry,




The mast is actually one of the few elements were the choice of material is rather important.

This has mainly to do with the differences in how mast is produced. Aluminium masts are only viable when extruded and this leads to a constant stiffness behaviour. Carbon masts can of course be layed up using locally different distributions and directions.

Nobody is saying that aluminium is the best material for masts, nor that any other material is.

So how do we square this situation with equality under F16 class rules ?

First we must note that at no single instant does the F16 class rules rule on details. This was a fundamental choice we made at the beginning. The rule makers did not presume to understand what the future might bring. Something that is expensive today could be cheap tomorrow and visa versa. Basing class rules on such fluctuating conditions would only create future problems that are best avoided. The decision was made to ONLY rule on abstract design specifications that would remain invariant under changing societal conditions. Laws of physics are one such invariant abstraction. Hence the F16 class rules rule on dimensions and shapes but not on materials. In that respect we are fundamentally different from the F18 class.

In order to substantiate the claim that "Something that is expensive today could be cheap tomorrow" I present the following example.

For about a good century, the Royal French court (as others) dinned of aluminium plates using aluminium cutlery instead of golden versions as was the custom before the discovery of aluminium. This was because at that time Aluminium was more expensive as Gold. The electrolyse method of converting Bauxiet (Aluminium ore) to pure aluminium hadn't been discovered yet and the metal had to be seperated using a difficult chemical method. And that made it more expensive then Gold. It was also considered a magical metal for being so much lighter then any other metals known and didn't corrode. Right after the discovery of the other seperation method, aluminium became so cheap and easily accessible that we now only consider it as dining equipment fit for a camping.

Similar reversals of fortune has happened in various field many times over the last 150 years. Who is not to say that carbon will become cheaper then aluminium somewhere down the line ? Or that a new material is discovered that replaces both ? Kevlar has already largely replaced carbon in hull construction because of economic shortages of carbon caused by booming airliner production.

Indeed, ruling on details such which materials can be used is not smart at all.

So limited by this fundamental choice we simply moved to equalize the masts made from any material to eachother. This resulted in the tipweight rule, F16 class rule 1.4.5 , adressing the enertia difference between masts of different overall weight.

That left only the inequality in local stiffness to be adressed. This "problem" was solved when it was found that an extruded alumnium mast, with constant cross section, could be fine-tuned locally in stiffness using a simple, lightweight and inexpensive method. A method much more suited to mass production then full carbon masts.

As it turns out now the difference between alu and carbon mast has not been found to be such that it was needed to further develop this new approach and it is in the refrigerator for now.

Interestingly, I pioneered the basic idea and worked on this mast design and it was likely to go onto the Aussie Blade F16. It is currently on hold as at this time not a large enough economic need is felt to implement it.

I won't publicize the details of this concept as it has some interesting economic potential. Also it can be used in the F18 class right now without it being easily spotted or be in clear breach of any F18 class rules. Additionally, this "concept" can be "retrofitted" to existing aluminium masts. So we can afford to wait this one out and see if the need to do so every arises.


Of course we also had a class vote on mast material back in 2002 and there is was afirmed that masts made of any material (specifically carbon) should be allowed. So as such it is a feature of the F16 class rather then a loophole that needs to be closed.


Summerizing :

-1- The F16 rules don't regulate on any materials due to a clear and fundamental line of reasoning
-2- Other rules are present in the F16 ruleset to equalize masts made of different materials
-3- Constant cross sectional masts as they are now are not making use of their full potential yet.
-4- The difference in performance between masts of different materials has not been found to lead to significant inequalities on the race course yet.
-5- The F16 class membership explicetly voted to allow masts made from different materials and in specific carbon.

Wouter

Still no sign of that Broadseam in a 3DL sail though...

Gee Wouter, you have time enough to write two essay's on your various theory's but can't find the time to prove your claim that a 3DL sail has Broadseams?

How about we excuse you from Essay duty whilst you reseach and obtain proof of the Broadseams in 3DL <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

This is becoming quite tedious-
I looked up the definition of broad seeming as anyone could.

"Broad seeming is when you build curvature into the sail surface, you do this by building the sail in panels, (see link above), only instead of a straight seam, that produces a flat sail, you fuse the panels together on a very, very slight curve.
Too much curve in a sail that is broad seamed results in a sail that will keep that shallow "bowl" shape even on the wrong tack, unless the wind is strong enough to punch it in."

Now whether this helps or not I don't know nor do I care but as to date this conversation seems to be about the definition of an English word when one person's first language is not English.

How about you two either get your own forum or call it half time and continue this conversation in Dutch and leave the rest of us in peace.

BTW:- If this has already been covered I still don't care. Instead of working on my new boat I think I'll go ride my bike.

I think Wouter perfectly understands the definitions,

His contention that the mylar film used in a 3DL sail consists of Broadseams, or any other seam with a sail shaping purpose is very well explained and shows that he clearly understands what he is saying.

The only problem with his claims are that they're just plain wrong.

Would it be beneficial to hold a vote of contributors and observers opinions on this? I suggest that before doing so voters be compelled to read North Sails' information on the process and structure of 3DL sails.
My understanding of this is that the mylar film panel overlap and shape is of little consequence to the form of the sail shape. The film acts as a carrier for the adhesive (pre-consolidation) and north sails quote the 'ADHESIVE' as being responsible for the bonding of the structural fibres. During consolidation under heat and pressure the film will deform and mould itself around the structural fibres and CONTINUOUS ADHESIVE MATRIX. The shape is dictated by the mould and the structure dictated by the adhesive matrix securing the structural fibres. Therefore, the shape is not dictated by the mylar panel seam shape so is not broadseaming. Forget any previous analogy with tortured ply as you would be comparing a pre-consolidated structural material (the plywood) where shape is paramount with a non-structural material(mylar film)where the film overlap seam shape is incidental.
Just to highlight the difference with broadseaming, I have Sobstadt genesis sails. These are panels which are broadseamed, as the structural panels (non-continuous fibre tows)are shaped at consolidated panel joints (seams) which are glued to each other to impart shape.
Anyone care to start a poll to canvas general opinion on this?

Cheshirecatman

Yet North state that they use "Mylar sections joined together with modest shaping to lie reasonably smoothly over the 3D surface of the mold". So is the argument here (and I agree with Phill that it's been pretty tedious to watch) over whether the shape of the seams dictates the final shape or only enables it?

The point is, Wouter claims that there are broadseams in a 3DL sail, this is false. Wouter even threatened to go directly to North Sails and ask them if broadseams are used in a 3DL sail... So, has he asked them as he claimed he would do? and if so what is the answer?


Now after enduring numerous attacks over my credibility I am taking issue with the matter and have asked Wouter more than 3 time to either:-

1. Prove his claims, show me to be a liar and I will never return to the F16 forum. (now that would make a few of you happy, so whats the holdup? you now have a way to make me go away)

2. Admit he is wrong and apologise for attacking me. (and I am not looking for an apology along the lines of his previous "truce" offering...)

Found the following links describing the patent that 3DL falls under, and comparing the methods used by North compared to other sail manufacturers.

Full details are on this link (won't copy the text as it is one of the few things that are longer than Wouter's posts):

http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/6382120-description.html

http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/6311633-description.html

But there is also this definition:
1. Sailmakers may shape, i.e., broad seam, the novel panels in the traditional manner. For added benefit, a selvage may be provided in the weaving process to also allow sewing (besides the increasingly prevalent gluing of seams).


For me, that definition is not necessarily true for 3DL. The shape of the sail is contrived from the mold and from laying of the yarn or fibres. The mylar film is only used to hold this in place. If they could, North would make this film the size of the whole sail as it would be lighter and produces less weak points, but that isn't conceivable or viable.

I know that Quantum up the road in Malaysia use broad seaming but the sails are made "3DL style". They have carbon and kevlar-fibre sections held together with mylar film, but the panels are about 1.5m to 2m wide and glued together. This way they get around the 3DL patent.

Macca made a Finn reference in an earlier post. That class requires broad-seaming. North get around this by essentially making a 3DL sail, then chopping it into panels, then gluing it back together to make broad seams.

Hope this helps.

Just to add, my view is that broad seaming can be asked in the following way:

"Is the shape of the sail being made by the gluing/sewing of the panels?"

3DL would be no, but other sails would be yes.

Whether my question is correct or not, I am not sure. But that is the way I see it.

Though as suggested in my earlier question, it seems that "being made by" may mean slightly different things to different people.

How about those of you who don't believe me go and have a look at a 3DL sail, take a photo of the broadseam and post it here?

I left my question open to interpretation and it is down to the measurer to make the final call. I am sure that there is an ISAF guideline, or documented evidence from an ISAF recognised class outlining what is acceptable and what isn't. Maybe able to find time later to google.

Personally I wouldn't know a 3DL sail if I fell over it, but are we right to understand that you're saying a 3DL has no "seam with a sail shaping purpose"?

If this is the case, how would a photo tell you the purpose of a seam?

I ask the question because if you go and have a look at a 3DL sail you will spend a long time looking for a seam of any type.... there are none <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Now, As I am an unemployed bum this week (wayne would contend that I am unemployable..) I have time to dig up plenty of info. From the 2007 Finn class rules:-
.pdf]http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/FIN2007_CR_240307-[469].pdf

Rule G.1.7 (b) continuous layers or fibres crossing the seams are prohibited.

So if a 3DL sail had seams it would be class legal in the finn without the current process of cutting the sail and regluing it to make the seams.

They plot,cut then glue the mylar panels together then they lay the mylar sail on to the mold then they lay the carbon strands over the mylar while doing this they are heating the sail and the glue so the cloth and strands take the shape of the mold. it's a bit like heat shrink. You can sew the mylar panels together but the glue is stronger than the cloth. These are crosscut sails with glued yarns. I havew a picture of the Maxi yacht Wild Oats 11 in a mag and you can clearly see that it is a crosscut sail with load path yarns. Have a look at the Genoa where the battens are the are seams.

http://nsweb.itinfo.dk/UK/3DL_Technology.asp

Vid on this page shows the process. Shows the differences between the more traditional broad-seaming style, to the very tech 3DL style.

Seen many of these sails as I am usually in adventureland (ie bowman) when yachtracing. Massively lighter than a panelled sail which is great. But once the sail is made, limited re-cutting available. Generally only the luff curve can be changed.

Ummm NO. what you think are seams at the batten pocket are in fact extra fibres running from the front edge of the batten pocket to the luff of the sail. These were introduced in 2007 accross th 3DL range for GP spec sails. basically it improves the longevity of the sail with minimal weight gain. essentially it acts like a longer batten than is actually there. A bit like a full battened jib without the handling issues of a 38ft long batten <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

So presumably the seams in the mylar disappear under heat & pressure?

In section 4 of how 3dl sails are made it said that the mylar film is joined at seams do these just disappear? or can they still be seen while sail is flying.


4. After a base layer of Mylar film (made from Mylar sections joined together with modest shaping to lie reasonably smoothly over the 3D surface of the mold) is draped over the mold and tensioned, a 6-axis fiber head suspended from a computer controlled overhead gantry then applies structural yarn onto the surface of the base film, precisely following the 3D curve of the mold surface. The fiber head "draws" a pattern in yarn that matches anticipated loads in the sail. All structural yarns are applied under uniform tension and adhere to the surface of the film to ensure they remain in place prior to being locked by the lamination.

They are really hard to see and you have to look closely. Not what you really would call seams. The mylar film is quite thin, and as I mentioned in an earlier post, the film is in sections as it wouldn't be viable to make the whole sail as a single film (but I am sure that Norths are looking into this). The seams are essentially just a way to join the whole sail together, but wouldn't meet the definition of broad seaming in creating shape, as opposed to holding the shape made by the kevlar/carbon yarns.

Where is Wouter? MIA?

Sorry Rolf,

Macca is corect from his figures based on the last time myself and some others discussed this the the Secutary Genral of the International F18 class. I am sure he has a lot more insite into what is happening within the F18 class globaly.

Macca may also have insight into real build numbers from one manufacture atleat.

Wouter, Wouter, Wherefore art thou?

Give us the answer we have been searching for.

This is the most hi-res pictures i could find on the Internet,
its a genoa from an +/-35 ft sloop:
http://www.frers.nl/wp-content/uploads/2006/12/dsc00425.JPG

I simply never expected you would go a low as telling a bolt lie in a public forum.

I guess that everyday you learn something new.

And just to be clear, I am calling Andrew McPherson a dirty liar now !

Wouter

Wouter,

How about you go back and edit your post so it makes some sense.

While you are at it, either get the proof or apologise.

He can't proof anything with a photo.

The reason for it is very simple.

Design a shaped sail using basic 2D cloth by a method called broad seaming. But instead of having a single layer of cloth with stitched overlaps on the edges (= seams), make it out of multiple layers, 2 or 3. When designing these shaped panels make sure that the panels that belong to a given layer have "egdes" (if we may not call them seams) that are shifted relative to the edges in the layers above and below it.

Get a 3D workbench (like a model airplane wing) and lay the first layer of panels with their egdes butt to butt and lay the second layer of panels, the ones with their egdes in different locations, on top of the first and also butt to butt. Glue the pack together. Repeat this for every new layer.

Basically, the small (stitched or glued) overlaps that most of us would easily recognize as "seams" are now transformed in very broad overlaps that most people won't recognize as easily as "seams". The lack of stitching because glue was used reinforces this impression. The irony of course is that the name "BROAD seaming" is probably more decribtive of this new layup then it was for the old way of joning panels. But that is a side track. Of course to improve load bearing properties a maze of fibres is glued between some layers, introducing all kinds of small lines running in every direction hiding the splits between the monofilm panels; but that is not important in the shaping part of the analysis.

Of course forcing these curved egdes of the panels to REMAIN back to back is what is shaping the sail when it is removed from the mould (3D workbench). These transitions from one panel to the next inside a single layer are the "seams" of the 3DL sail. They force shape into the sail in exactly the same way as "broad seaming" and therefor it is "broad seaming".

Everybody can try this himself at home using pieces of paper or plastic bags and glue or BROAD duct tape. I made shaped stunt and power kites that way as far as 25 years ago.

Of course promotors and other persons who are not too smart will now claim to have pioneered a totally new shaping proces that is completely different to broad seaming. Their proof ? Just asking anybody to point out the "seams" in a photograph.



Guys, this is all pretty old news. Even sailing magazine articles as old as 2004 have described it in similar terms :

http://www.sailingworld.com/sailing-gear/sails/changes-in-racing-sails-and-sailmaking-33336.html

and I quote :





Model airplane builders have been using such techniques for decades before North Sails gave it a fancy name.

Why is everybody falling every single time for the debating techniques of Macca where he is arguing the impossible ?

Wouter

Then Wouter somebody had better call the Finn class and tell them that 3DL sails are ok to use without cutting and inserting seams as they currently do.

The rule in the Finn class (which is heavily scrutinised by sailmakers, sailors, federations and ISAF) clearly bans sails that have Continuous layers or fibres crossing the seams. If there were seams in a 3DL sail then they would in fact be legal for class use.

When you are finished theorising you can get back to reality and pull your head in.

Wouter, please refer to your post #133215 in the F16 weight thread.

You say the following:

"I think I'll go with North Sails on this one. Time to admit you have been busted redhanded Macca, again !"

Thanks James, I was to pissed off to go back and find that post.

"To go with someone" means something else then "to go to someone".

Especially in the context of the complete wording used in post #133215 where a direct reference is made to a statement made by North Sails themselves.

And "threatening to do something" suggests a whole different choice of words altogether.

Do I need to explain that to you as a non-native English speaker ?

It is just me or is the level or intellect dropping sharply lately ?

Wouter

Wouter, I just had a thought:-

You could sell your theory on 3DL sails to the highest bidding Olympic federation. They are all looking for a edge in the upcoming Beijing Games. The Finn sailor that has a full 3DL sail will have a nice advantage over his competitiors.

All you have to do is convince the ISAF measurer that the Continuous layers or fibres are indeed crossing the invisible seams... Good luck with that <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

So you are saying that you are going to agree with North Sails on the issue?

Macca, when you go to the North factory can you take a look at the 3Dr fabrication?
I just watched the 3Dr Tour on their website and the way they construct those sails is nothing short of amazing.

A must see for anyone who enjoys technology and sailing:
http://na.northsails.com/3Dr

Maybe a better question for us all is why any class would want to ban 3D sails at all ?

Apart from the obvious semantics, there is bugger all in it !

And if that drum production proces of North Sails proofs to be able to produce good 3D sails in a cheap manner then why not make use of it ?

Wouter

I was thinking, why would any class ban a sailmaker, then it came to me. If indeed the 3DL sails are "up to 20% lighter" and they have a patent on the process, that pretty much means no other sailmaker can build a similar light sail, so in effect, the whole class would have to buy from North if they want the lightest sails.

Is that why they did it?

Also, I thought I read a few years back, that someone was suing North over patenet issues involving the 3DL process, and North lost, and had to buy them out of the patent, is that the case? I thought was Sobstad or Ulman, or someone else, who actually invented it and North stole it. Perhaps the patent should expire so all the sailmakers can use that method.

Also...(bored today) why has nobody come up with a spray on fluid which would dry to shape, to replace the mylar film? Seems you could just spray the mylar type stuff in place and forget about seams alltogether. Calling Dupont and 3M... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

The play for the patent is in my opinion one reason why it may not be called "broad seaming". Because if it is identified as such then no patent could have been awarded and everybody could have made 3D sails. But that is a different topic.

More important is that 20% of next to nothing is still next to nothing.

A normal F16 radial mainsail, excluding battens, weights something like 3.5 to 4 kg. 20% of that is onlu 0.7 to 0.8 kg (= also less then 2 pounds). If that amount of weight savings puts you below minimum weight then you have to put it back on your boat again as lead.

20% weight savings may add up to many kilograms on large yachts, that do carry many sets of sails, but on a F16 where only a single suit of sails is allowed, it is almost negligiable.

Patent problems : It was indeed Sobstad and yes the patents are soon ending. So if anything we can expect alot of competition in this field driving down prices. That is, when assuming 3D sails are attractive enough commercially for sailmakers. I guess we'll know soon enough.

The "spray" idea is basically 3D polymerization and we have already covered that earlier.


By the way, Marcus used a "tapedrive" (tm) mainsail on his Blade F16 at the GC 2007 event, this is extremely similar to 3D sails. The difference is mostly that it is made by somebody else then North Sails. I showed his mainsail to some potential customers who came over to check out the F16 boats as Marcus wasn't available himself at the time. The sail felt light but also a thinner then some of the radial sails I handled.

For of large picture of this sail follow this link :

http://f16.beasts.org/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.ShowItem&g2_itemId=6095

And click on full size version

Wouter

Hi Tony,

I will try to have a look when I am there. Its not allowed to take pics inside the 3DL section but from what I have been told the 3DR area is not so secretive. I have not seen it in person yet as it's been a few years since I was last in the US.

3DR has potential to produce moulded (seamless) sails for almost the same cost as a traditional panel sail. That is a good thing, however as the Tornado class has proven its not a good situation to allow a technology that is only available through one supplier

Actually its very much the topic: If the matter has been to court and each party was clearly trying to win their case (spending a LOT of money to do so) and it as found in that court of law that there is a difference in the way a 3DL sail is made, hence granting patent status. That should be proof enough for Wouter? Or was the Judge mislead??



Rather have it as lead on the boat, than weight aloft. Furthermore, as a percentage of total boat weight 0.8kg in a 107kg boat is a lot more than 5kg in a 5500kg boat.


having sails below deck on a yacht is not really an issue with regards to the weight carried. In race yachts we try to add weight in the right areas and if the max design displacement is a class/formula rule then we sometimes add water to the bilge in order to increase the sailing displacement. Sounds a bit crazy but the science is sound.

Wouter, you must have missed my post above where I asked if you would accept North Sails version of Broadseaming in relation to 3DL?

I chatted with Fletch about sail manufacture at Christmas time. Most of the European Tornado teams are using MAX cloth in their sails, thus allowing cleaner lighter sails. When I asked Fletch about it, the gist of the conversation was that in general they were better sails than radial cut sails, in fact when a couple of Aussie teams were looking to buy second hand sails of the Euros I believe he suggested they make sure they were MAX. However, for their program (Bundy and Gashby) after doing their due diligance they decided to stick with radial sails because with Fletch and Gashby both looking at the sails in the lead up to a regatta the radial sails give them the ability to make minor tweeks to the sail each day until it is perfect. With a max sail this would be significantly harder. 3DL and 3DR sails are illegal on Ts anyway but based upon this discussion, I don't think the world's best Tornado sailors would use them even it they could.

The worlds best Tornado sailors would for sure use 3DL if it was allowed.

In fact in 1995 Chris Nicholson had a 3DL sail made for his Tornado. The benefits are clear that a 3DL sail will be lighter and have a completly repeatable shape which negates the need to make those little tweaks.

Maxx cloth is made by Contender, it was the first cloth used in the latest crosscut development, now however the top teams are using Flex which is made by Dimension. The Maxx cloth was not stable enough unless you used the carbon version which is banned in the Tornado. The New Flex sails are showing promise.

Its is a lot easier to make a change to a Maxx or Flex sail than a radial sail. The Seams are located at the batten pockets and all you have to do is split the seam at the pocket, make the change and stick it back together. A radial sail is a complete nightmare to alter seam shape on the radial panels once the sail has been made.

Its is a lot easier to make a change to a Maxx or Flex sail than a radial sail. The Seams are located at the batten pockets and all you have to do is split the seam at the pocket, make the change and stick it back together. [/quote]

Sorry macca,

Here's a little insight on how difficult it is to change the panel shaping of the cross-cut Flex or Maxx cloth sails.

Since they are GLUED then stitched, the panels are "locked" resulting in a sail that cannot be unstitched to tuck/tighten the leech. The radial in this effect is easier to tune because you are tightening the horizontal joining seams, not the radials. The 3M glue sailmakers are currently using does not allow for the seam to come apart.

For everyone's education,

Bob <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Bob, you had better send a tube of that glue to the Tin Can Tri guy! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> Better yet, two tubes! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Bob,

Maxx of Flex sails can be joined in a number of ways. for a production (ie a sail requiring no more development) sail they can be glued as you describe (which is actually ultrasonicly activated) and do not need stitching, or if you are developing sail shapes and want to alter the seams you simply use venture tape and sew the seams. then its super easy to alter.


for a little more education <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Wouter,

When you get a chance can you give us an answer to this question:-

Are you going to agree with North Sails on the broadseam in 3DL sails issue?

So, when I was personally involved with Contender almost a decade ago when we first started down the cross-cut laminate road, we quickly realized the seams were pulling apart when using venture tapes. That's why way back then we went to 3M and had them get involved with a better glue for the seams. In order to fully achieve even a test sail, you must glue. You can't evaluate cloth when other things are moving too. We learned this almost a decade ago.

The Flex and Maxx cloths are now getting better (more fill yarns) and I think after the Olympics it will be a cloth to look into. Until then and we get longevity and stretching reports, radials are the way to go in multihull sails. Really, this is all old news on how to build a cross-cut laminate sail.

We all know it's much more cost effective to build a cross-cut sail, the construction process is sound, and the problem still remains the long-term stability of the cloth.

Furthering education,
Bob <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Well, when we actually build test sails we use venture tape and sew the seams.

Seams are much wider than a radial sail but all Maxx/Flex sails have wider seams than radial sails.

Attached is a pic of a sail that we have been using for 3 years now and the mainsheet loads on this boat are the same or higher than a Tornado. Seams are done with venture tape and stitching. no movement yet...I think you can even see the stitching on the vertical mitre seam.

Education continues <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

While we're at it, in your professional opinion and based on your experience with Contender, does a 3DL sail have broadseams?

Nice pic!
Is that the old Maxx 3.0mil? I couldn't help but notice the extra panel up the luff. Most have been running carbon or pentex tapes from head to tack to save weight on the older cloth. Are those soft or medium stiffnes battens? What kind of boat is that on? Who is the carbon spar manufacturer?

3DL? Who cares about that stuff!

Bob <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Yeah, 3.0 narrow width. The rotated panel in the luff is a much nicer (but harder) way to deal with the luff loads and the even transfer through the sail. The panel right on the luff is a bainbridge cloth, can't remember the name but its mainly uni carbon in a matrix.

I have seen sails with the carbon/pen tapes on the luff and I think the results have been mixed, some look a bit like the early 3DL sails where the fibres were not applied at even tensions and the sail bunched a little at the load points.

Battens are std fibrefoam Tornado, pretty soft, bottom 4 or so would be between 1.0kg up to 1.5kg top battens would be 2.3kg or so.

Boat is a modified Taipan 5.7, Mast is actually moulded off a Taipan 4.9 section and produced by Applied composites in Melbourne Australia.

Macca,

It seems you have learned to argue your case in a more balanced manner.

I guess I will allow myself to be seduced by this new tactic.


With respect to US patent laws. Judges don't award patents, patent agencies do. The judge ruled on the case were the patent agency awarded a patent to North Sails where it had also done to Sobstad earlier for what turned out afterwards to be the same thing. By this example alone, refering to the patent agency for a judgement of "uniqeness" is fallable. Because if they had been dependable in that way then North Sails should never have gotten a patent in the first place. And of course by extension ...

The second argument is that this is all circumstancial. The fact that I wasn't home at the time of some buglary has at most a very weak relation to the likelyhood that I've done some illegal. Patent are also awarded on other ground like a uniqueness in production proces. Example, one can not get a patent on the extruding of aluminium pipe, but one can on say a special new machine to inject the aluminium into the forming die. I have not studied the North Sail patents, but maybe they received the patent on some aspect of the glueing that is vital to the production of these sails instead of the composition of the sails itself.

The third argument is of course that this all doesn't really matter as the shaping of the sail is still being done by giving the panels carefully designed countours which are put back to back and fixated relative to eachother which is known to many people as the procedure of .... Well I think anyone can complete that phrase themselves now.

Of course you can try to find new angles to "proof" the impossible, but it won't change the situation one bit.

3D sails and other similar types like tapedrive from other sailmakers are allowed in the F16 class and are expected to stay that way. With the new 3Dr machine and the fact that many patents expire in the near future the F16 class is perfectly positioned to make full use of these sails.

As such The F16 class will lead the "benchmark" F18 class again.

I see absolutely no gain in removing this promo advantage we'll have with respect to other classes. In fact I say alot of arguments in favour of keeping it.

I write "promo advantage" as a scientist I believe the flying shape of a sail determines the performance and it makes not a dime difference to its shape whether a sail is broadseamed and stitched when folded up or broad seamed and glued on a 3D workbench.





That is a pretty strange argument even from you.

Basically you are now arguing yourself that there is no worthwhile gain to 3D sails. I mean what is 5kg to 5500 kg right ? So we can cross the 20% weight savings from the "advantage" list.





Yes, but reducing the weight of the sails is not linked to a desire to reduce displacement but rather to ease of moving them about; from storage to deck, hoisting them and reducing weight aloft. Everybody knows this.

This was a pretty easy argument to kill, Macca, you really got to do better than that.

Wouter

Before I pull your theory apart and apply practical knowledge to it, can you please answer my question which I have asked directly now more than 3 times:-

Will you agree with North Sails point of view with regards to broad seams in 3DL sails, as referenced by your statement "I think i'll go with North sails on this one" ?

Pretty simple question, requiring a YES or NO answer.

Further: An Olympic class (finn) which has its rules certified by ISAF agrees that there are no seams in a 3DL sail.

So if ISAF are of the opinion that there are no seams in a 3DL sail, are you saying that you know better?

ISAF also agrees that there shouldn't be a multihull in the Olympics !

Are we now looking to them for a touch of sanity ?

<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> You are getting desperate Macca. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Wouter

I think the council decissions are a fair way from the technical/rules staff.

So are you going to agree with North Sails as you stated previously?

But you are also avoiding his question. That would also put this issue to bed.

This thread reminds of a very famous interview that was on the UK TV a few years ago, watch and enjoy <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BklT7Qy07Is

Gareth

There is no point in answering repeatitive questions that have been answered before in many other posts.

The last time it was asked to define the seams in a 3D sail and I answered it in this posting :

http://www.catsailor.com/forums/sho...Number=133899&page=&vc=1


The expected reply was again going along the form : "... just a theory ... too long essay ... not reading it ... < then repeating the same question in a new form> "

Typical debating technique

Throw in a tantrum and we have the 3 year old kids version of it.

Therefor I'm not avoiding any questions, I'm just economizing on my answering.


Of course at times it is also mixed with a little :

"Is your wife recovering well from the beating you gave her last week; just answer with a yes or no please"

Which is a typical entrapment technique.

And I'm not falling for that.


Macca has got to play this game a whole lot smarter if he is to come out on top. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Wouter

Yep, the Youtube clip nailed it!!

Wouter your continual avoidance of my question tells me that you boxed yourself into a corner with your claim that you would "go with North sails on this one" and now you have no way out without loosing your pride.

Trying to discredit an ISAF technical ruling on 3DL sails only further lowers my opinion of your ability to comprehend all matters relating to sail powered vessels.

Its OK to be wrong sometimes <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Just suck it like a man and get on with life.

Typical debating technique number 3 : Quoting something out of context.

The phrase part "... go with North sails on this one ..." (notice the correct use of <...>) comes from the following context as quoted in full !




#133215 - Thu Feb 14 2008 01:04 PM : http://www.catsailor.com/forums/sho...umber=133215&page=0&vc=1

**************************************************************************************************




Okay, exactly which part of [color:"red"] "... Mylar sections joined together with modest shaping ..." [/color] do you not understand ?


You say there is no shaping that way; North sails themselves say there is. I think I'll go with North Sails on this one. Time to admit you have been busted redhanded Macca, again !

Wouter

--------------------
Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands


*************************************************************************************************



If anybody is boxed in than it is Macca himself and he has been since, at least, 14 feb 2008.

Wouter

Wouter, this isn't rocket science.
A simple YES or NO will do just fine. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

(btw. have you ever admitted to being wrong about anything?)
More Youtube amusement: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teMlv3ripSM

OK, then lets make it real simple for you:-

Will you accept an answer as definitive from North Sails as to the use or non use of Broadseams in a 3DL sail?

If the answer is NO:-

Will you accept an answer as definitive from an ISAF technical committee member as to the use or non use of Broadseams in a 3DL sail?

<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />Ohhh, I'm sorry, what was the question again ? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Wouter

Coffee or Tea? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

No, on the first question as obviously North Sails will be protecting their patent.

No, on the second question as ISAF has not much credibility at all in these matters, they are mostly a political entity with a history of mindboggling rulings.


Wouter

Thanks Tony,

<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />Do you have popcorn to go with that ? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Or maybe some port wine.



I can run circles around Macca even when drunk.

And give everybody an illustrated course on debating techniques at the same time.

Ohhh YEAH !

Wouter

Wouter, If you wont accept ISAF as a ruling body for your class then what will F16 do?? set up your own worldwide governing body?

What will happen when you try to get your class rules certified by ISAF as a step to becoming a certified class?

For somebody who said that I have no credibility you are well on your way to negative cred if thats possible!

Stay out of ISAF, as we have done so far, and allow 3D sails ?



Gee Macca, I don't even need more then 3 seconds to put effective replies to your posts.

You are losing this debate if you don't play it a whole lot smarter.

Wouter

So, I'm off to do some work now.

Macca, use this timeframe of several hours to think up a better strategy because I'm getting bored with your soft punches.

Wouter

I have already won, and anyone else who reads this will agree.

The important fact here is that Wouter is no longer an official F16 office bearer & therefore would not be the person(or part of the committee that would decide)on weather F16 wants to become ISAF recognised.

So thats a useless conversation/ debate to have in my opinion.

Dear Wouter,

The word modest pretty much says it all doesn't it? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />
Dictionary: Modest: Moderate or limited in size, quantity, or range.

ISAF said so, a Judge has said so, so pull out the white flag and/or give it a rest.

"I can run circles around Macca even when drunk.

And give everybody an illustrated course on debating techniques at the same time.

Ohhh YEAH !

Wouter "


WHo the fek are you kidding ??????? only yourself !

Wouter you are a tit !!!!! the sooner you realise it the better

Theres some good Scottish rhetoric for you !

No committee can decide whether "the F16 class want to go ISAF" either, that is a members vote thingy !

Wouter

Macca, just declare victory and go home, right ?

I can live with that.

All concluded then ?

Wouter

Just what the hell are you drinking (or smoking) W? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

I don't even sail an f-16, but I like to come to this side of the forum because there is usually some pretty entertaining stuff to read. This thread has been awesome!!! All that's left for Wouter and Macca to do now is pull out the rulers and find out who really is the better man!

Wouter, hopefully in the future you will be a little more open to the possibility that you are not always right, and restrain yourself from bluffing your way through a topic with theories and hypothesies.

I look forward to seeing you at a regatta in Holland this year (if you go to regattas)

I won't be going much to regatta's this year at all I'm afraid. I got a research project starting on 1 march and I have to complete that in 12 months, and that is tight.

Before that time I still got to complete a full dynamic simulation model of a Harbour Crane for sea containers and implement it. I'll be very busy for the next few months and be lucky if I take my boat out of storage before mid summer.

I wish you the very best at the regatta's next year.

Signing off,

Wouter

What is your project about? Would be fun to know what you will spend 12 months of your life on.

Still have to receive the final get go but it deals with, ... wait for it :

Active damping of vibrations in very large wind turbines using the smart rotor concept.

See picture :



We are talking about wind turbines that have a rotor diameter of over 100 meters, here the vibrations (even small ones) are becoming quite problematic. They distroy highly loaded parts like the bearings rather quickly and now these turbines have to be shut down when the wind is not quite right, to safe some lifespan of the bearings for perfect wind days. By reducing these vibrations it is intended to increase the lifespan of the highly loaded parts to such an extend that these turbines can just be left on for very long periods of time between maintaince or repair jobs. This is very important economically. The more hours such an expensive turbine can produce energy the quicker the investment is won back and the more interesting it becomes to invest in one and the more the price per KWh reduces.

I'm going to try to get a new type of actuator (to move the control flaps) to work well. This actuator uses memory metal to move the flap and that is a highly non linear and non repetitive actuator. My task will be to design and implement a compensator that will remove all these non-linearities from its behaviour when the combination of compensator and actuator are viewed as a single blackbox. Some of this non-linearities will be linked to the aerodynamic behaviour of the flap itself.

My initial expectation is to do this using an Artificial Neural Network (multi-input ; single-output) fed with all the influence factors and having trained itself to compensate for them.

Everything is intended to go into a windtunnel setup to be tested. Sadly the (old) test setup came loose and was distroyed in the windtunnel some months ago. So somebody has to build a complete new setup before we can proceed on that, but arrangements are being made to that effect.

I would really love to be there when part of my work is tested with that of others in the windtunnel.

Wouter

Sounds like very interesting stuff! If the project goes awry, remember your emergency exit: Build the blades out of cold moulded wood veneers with a 7% carbon laminate added. Should solve the problem you are trying to fix <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Or drop the thing into the ocean where the currents are more predictable and not so violent. Of course, just dropping it into the deepest part of the sea would also solve the problem, kind of..

Good luck with it! If I see such systems in production in 10 years I'll let everybody around me know that the guy who designed that system also sail catamarans.

Not really Rolf,

It is not the weight of the blades that is the core of the problem but the aerodynamic forces on the Blades. Can't solve that by choosing a different material.

Think of it in this way. When a rotor has a diameter of over 100 meters then the gust at ground level doesn't have that much correlation to the windspeed at 170 meters above the ground. The support structure for the Rotor being at least 70 mtr tall itself.

So one can easily see how the load situation on the rotor is assymetric and changing all the time. We are talking about 5 to 10 MW energy production and that means "I don't know how many" tons of aerodyamic pressure on the blades at basically tens of meters of leverage arms.

Ocean currents are more stable I guess but also alot more slow. You pretty much have to find an underwater gorge somewhere with an accellerated current running through it to sufficiently offset the drag incurred by the turning rotor and come out with a net energy production.

Anyway, we are not going to start another topic about theories and hypotheses right ?



Make that " ... also sails F16 catamarans" !

Why not get some promotion out of it as well. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />


See Ya all.

Wouter

Wouter, I have often wondered why they don't use smaller diameter blades, but put more of them up and down the support tower, so they are all operating in their own little wind speed, not covering the huge difference from 20M height to 120M height.

Why not put 5 smaller ones, say 20M diameter each, up a tower, each able to swivel into it's own wind, as not only the speed but also the direction of the wind changes in that 120M altitude. I know they wouldn't produce as much juice as one big one, but they would be MUCH cheaper to build, able to operate at much higher windspeeds, and you wouldn't have all the vibration problems...and you wouldn't have to shut them down when things aren't "perfect" so you actually might end up with MORE juice (electricity) in the long run. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Mate, you are going to get him going now, but actually interested in what he has to say. One area that I am in at work invests in Clean Tech/Clean Water so see heaps of research on these type of companies. All in the Asian region (specifically China, India etc). Certainly an interesting space. These type of companies have been bashed in the past few months with their stock prices, but I could go on about that, but no essays from me today.

The underlaying reason is called "Kyoto" and "100 dollar oil prices"

The direct reason is "cost" and "energy-yield"

One rotor of 100 mtr diameter covers an (swept) area of 7854 sq. mtr. (= 100%)

5 rotors of 20 mtr diameter cover a combined (swept) area of 1571 sq. mtr (= 20%)


The energy yield is roughly proportional to the swept area; meaning that a large rotor can produce about 5 times as much energy then 5 smaller rotors using the same 100 mtr tall mast.

Note however that we are still mainly using about 75 mtr tall masts, so we can't fit 5 rotor of 20mtr in there while we can fit one 100 mtr rotor. On a 75 mtr tall mast you can only three 20 mtr rotors installed and have only 3/5*20% = 12 % of the energy yield which is peanuts. Actually the produced energy is even lower as a series of smaller rotors suffers much more from the windshadow of the tower then a single large rotor does.


Both Kyoto and other renewable energy agreements require nations to produce something like 20% of their anual electricity usage from C02 neutral means by 2020 if I remember correctly. That is a whole lot of installed power. It is much easier to achieve that using big rotors then small rotors.

Additionally, we have to get off-shore with these windpark in North-West Europe as we are too densely populated on land and our best wind in found on the seas. Putting down a foundation on the seabed to take the support tower and installing the tower is very large component of the total cost. Entlarging the rotor diameter isn't. That is why everybody is looking to make the largest wind turbines that we can. Because then the cost per produced KWh is the lowest. And of course KWh is what you are selling in the end. Meaning that when you have more of it, you can get more money back in return. One very important consideration to investors.

But we must also not forget that having 5 small rotors with their own drive shafts, bearing and generators is not cheaper then one large rotor with one big drive shaft and one big generator. I haven't seen such comparisons myself but I would be really surprised if 5 smaller rotor would come in cheaper then 1 large one. And that takes away the single argument that the small rotors had going for them.

So summerizing : Small rotors are just not economically attractive as the investments per installed KWh are too high, leading to far too long "return of investment" times. This is one area where indeed "advantages of scale" are to be found.

There are also several other more technical reasons but I won't bore you with those.

Wouter

Wouter,
When in Zandvoort in August I noticed a wind farm off shore to the north. I didn't notice it back in 2004. Doesn't mean it wasn't there, but I didn't notice it.
Do you know when that went in and are there more planned.
It would be a lot nicer if they could put something similar under the water and use the current that is generated up and down the cost by the tide movement.

Wouter, possibly a stupid question: Does slowing, or increasing the rpm change the amount of vibration? 15rpm isn't very "fast", but I'm sure those tips are hauling butt.

Phill,
There is a research project underway here in Florida looking at exactly that, using the Gulf Stream in stead of tidal flows.

These windparks were mostly installed between 2004 and 2007, between you visit. And there are going to be more.

I think there were only a handful of individual turbines in 2004 if any !

Construction is progressing at an alarming rate.

And while I'm happy to work on them, I'm not really ready to accept a whole horizon full of them.

To me the clear horizon over the western egde of the sea symbolized space, freedom and something untouched by humans and I enjoyed looking at it that way. Now it is more and more boxed in with these windparks.

But there is no way around it, we need them as the best solution, cutting down on energy consumption, is an impossible sell to most people.

Wouter

Probably more of interest is a station using the tide itself. I think they have one of those in France for over 30 years now. France has some huge tide in certain places. Basically it is very similar to a hydro electrical dam but you just reverse the flow twice a day.

Tides in NL are too small for that.

Another project of interest is wave-stations.

Another interesting project (for TaipanFC) is something that is planned in Malaysia. Two tall office buildings that are spaced apart in the such a way that they form a venturi. Right between the towers their are cross bridges so people can go from one building to another and between these bridges there are those smaller wind turbines that Timbo mentioned.

Wouter

Not really, it will mostly change the frequency at which these disturbances occur.

Of course if you REALLY slowed it down then the aerodynamic forces will become alot smaller as well and so too the disturbance. However energy yield will drop sharply below some turning rate and then you win nothing. The turbines are already optimized as it is.




Easy to calculate :

rotor blade length = about 50 mtr.
15rpm = 15 * 2*pi rad/min * 1/60 sec = 0.5*pi rad/sec

tip velocity = 50 mtr * 0.5*pi rad/sec = 25*pi mtr/sec = about 75 mtr/sec = about 300 kph or 200 Mph.

Wouter

Got some links or documentation on that Gulf Stream project ?

Would like to read some more about it

Wouter

Wouter,
here is a link to an NPR article about the project:
NPRGulfStreamproject

Link to the project web site:
FAUprojectwebsite

There is also a new technology under reseach called Reverse Electro Dialysis.
Basically they can draw power from the chemical reaction that occurs when saltwater meets freshwater.

http://www.redstack.nl/RS-Pres01/RS-pres_bestanden/frame.htm
http://www.onderzoekinformatie.nl/nl/oi/nod/onderzoek/OND1309967/

[quote
Another interesting project (for TaipanFC) is something that is planned in Malaysia. Two tall office buildings that are spaced apart in the such a way that they form a venturi. Right between the towers their are cross bridges so people can go from one building to another and between these bridges there are those smaller wind turbines that Timbo mentioned.

Wouter [/quote]

All sorts of things like this being considered round the world. With new London buildings having to use 10% renewable fuels, then creating venturis for turbines is worth considering. Just would want to know how noisy this would be when working in (or living near) the building.

Arie,
Interesting stuff.
I know zip about sources of natural energy.
From the zip I like solar.
There used to be a chap on a goffer with a solar cell to keep him out of the sun.
I would see him down the shops frequestly many miles away from where he lived.
I think he passed away because I have not seen him for years.
Anyhow with the increase in petrol prices I think a device for personal transport that is solar powered would be great.
So I have started working on a solar powered trike.
I suppose it has already been done but still it should be a lot of fun.

I am not an engineer either....They are still a ways off making this commercially viable, but it is sure interesting....one of their major concerns at this point is the potential damage to sealife: I guess the larger diameter turbines could do some real damage to the swimming critters <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
Keep us posted on the solar trike!

Wouter, a long long time ago ( over 30 years ) I was working with a guy who was experimenting with horizontal turbines rather than vertical. Basically he had 4 wing sections on long horizontal poles, the wings were set up so they started to tilt when over a certain speed making them less efficient and thus governing the speed. His big problem was to get them spinning in low winds to then create lift which powered them up. His reasoning was that a small wing section on a long pole generates a lot of force rather than the inefficiencies of a propellor, much easier and simpler to build as well. Anyway why has this type of turbine not developed rather than the props we know of today

Sounds alot like a Darrieus rotor.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darrieus_wind_turbine

The patent on it was given out in 1931, yes indeed, 1931.

Most of us know it by its curved version, as a result of the movie waterworld.






In my opinion it is a very elegant design, even magical with its vertical axis of rotation and it being totally independent of wind direction and speed. I mean how can it actually work like that ?

The reason is pretty simple but you won't figure it out for yourself that easily.

And water world was right in its usage. It is one of the very best rotor designs for a vehicle. It points straight up and works irrespectibally of the direction the vehicle is heading; it is said to even work when travelling directly into the wind ! But I've never seen any proof of the latter.

Is that the type you mean ?

Wouter

Yes your top picture is similar, why when they should be really efficient are they not being developed, I think they work because of the apparant wind they generate.

As far I can fathom props should / are really inefficient

Please read the wikipedia article that was provided.

Should answer most questions you have.

The only thing I missed in it was a comparison between energy yields (efficiency) between different rotor designs. Here the Darrieus is pretty good but the standard three bladed (upwind) rotors are still more efficient.

Wouter

Wouter-Your research is very interesting. Are there any of those mega windmills operating now? 100 meter span is huge. I know I met a guy here in town that builds windmills and ships them all over the world though I can't remember the company's name. But having the Tennessee River on there door step makes shipping much easier.

yes. Although the smart rotor concept is still in research and/or feasibility study stage.

Here is a windpark with 104 mtr diameter rotors. Notice the scale of the tugboats !




These pictures will give an even better feel of scale, notice the two persons standing on the stabilized walkway and the dinghy at the very foot of the tower. The stabilized platform uses a setup also found in flight simulators. It's base is made up from 6 very large hydraulic actuators that are computer controlled to keep the walkway level with the doorway in the tower when there are rougher seas.

Phill, these are actually the turbines that you have seen off the coast of Zandvoort. It is the windpark off "Egmond aan Zee".



Wouter

How about using the waves?

http://12degreesoffreedom.blogspot.com/2008/02/wave-and-tidal-energy-potential.html

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003931009_wavepower07m0.html

http://www.mms.gov/offshore/PDFs/WaveTidal%20Energy_1-RobertThresher.pdf

Must be a lot of turbulence downwind of them. If the disturbance stretches for 20 times the height.. Dont put the race course too close to them. Say goodbye to any interesting birds as well.

I am waiting for them to drop these ocean current stations in the Gulf Stream and subsequently screw up its flow and the then fall out as Europe goes into a deep freeze. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

That ought to make the water wars over irrigation and river flow look like nothing.

And now back to our regularly scheduled program-----

Too late for that I'm afraid:
http://www.xtreme40.com/container.asp?section=news&container=true&artid=8678

I wonder about the bird problem with these wind farms. Where I live you can't drive anywhere for a few minutes without seeing the remains of some bird on the road. When I think of the scale of the road system and imagine how many dead birds there must be lying on roads, I really can't see how the numbers that fly into wind generators can be significant.

If the numbers were comparable the maintenance people would have to bulldoze the carcases out of the way just to get to the base of the tower!

If it really is a serious problem then maybe we should be ripping up the roads to save the birds!

These windmills are a real problem for birds. The tip of a blade is really moving at high speed and the birds have not learnt to watch out for them yet. We have one of these plants not too far away, and they kill off a decent amount of birds. It was a shame that they built the windmill farm in the middle of our most important breeding grounds for white tailed eagles.. Just one more thing to take into account when building these things be environmentally friendly. Especially when 99.9% of our electricity is produced with hydroelectric dam installations.

Windmill failure.

Wow, that was very cool! I wonder how many RPM's it got up to before it came apart? Must have really been putting out some juice just before the blades flew off!!

Wouter, what do they use to keep them from overspeeding? Do they feather the blades (change the pitch) or do they have some sort of a brake system?

Both are used, but I think on larger turbines only feathering is viable. Braking 2 MW relates to alot of heat and wear !

Wouter

But couldn't they just bring another generator on line to slow it down, kind of like the "regenerative brakes" on the electric cars and hybrids? Use the torque to drive more generators at the normal speed, vs. wasing the energy of a normal brake system.

I saw some very big blades going down the highway in Texas, these things were HUGE, I would guess at least 150 feet long and about 10 feet across the round base of the blade where it attatches to the hub. They were carried on a huge trailor, one behind each truck, I think I counted about 6 trucks heading north on I35 out of Ft. Worth back in August. Probably going up to North Dakota, I think there is a big wind farm up there. They must manufacture them somewhere in Texas? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Wouter,

Has anyone looked into active vibration dampening, a la J. C. Doyle et al.? ( http://www.cds.caltech.edu/doyle-fest/ ) Space platforms have similar problems, especially due to the lack of dampening in a vacuum.

--Glenn

I can't say.

The field of windturbine design is pretty big now and many people work there, I know only a small portion of them and even of those I only know a portion of what they have researched over the years.

Wouter

A neighbor of mine designs them for GE and the cost per KW is one of the highest due to maintenance costs. Governments are subsidizing the technology to diversify in the expectation that the price of oil, coal, and environmental issues will make the technology viable over time.

Yes, indeed, and that is why the smart rotor concept is being researched as it promises to cut down on maintaince costs.

Wouter

How big a windmill would I need to put on my roof to power say, half my demand at home? And this is DC power, right? And I would need an inverter to make it AC power, and I could also cover my roof with solar panels, below the windmill mast! And maybe even put up 5-6 windmills on the beach, and one at the end of the dock, to kill off those pesky birds that are always crapping on my boat and dock! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Not as big as you may think, here in the UK all electricity meters run backwards ie if you put more power in you turn the meter backwards. This is really good as most of the summer you will use less power than needed and could on the really good windy days be accruing bonus points ( meter going backwards ) on the cold winter days you then use up all those bonus points with extra heating etc.

As a wind turbine sceptic having just spent a large deal of time looking at green energy I have to say that the cost has fallen such that any house away from other houses and a known windy spot ( top of a hill or windy side of a valley ) should be looking at wind turbines, its nearly worthwhile now and with any more movement of the oil price its starting to look economic. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />