Hypothetical question?

Would the F16 Class gain more respect and sailors if say either Nacra or Hobie developed a F16. I think most of us would agree that their marketing power and name certainly wouldn't do the Class any harm. I'm NOT trying to fan the flames of a recent thread but I'm interested in knowing how F16 Sailors feel about the future of the Class. Do they see it continuing as it is with just a small group of manufacturers servicing a small market or do people really expect F16's to be on a par with F18 sales in a couple of years time?

You can't get into this without flames.

I think the F16 class will grow.

If Nacra / Hobie were to come into the class it would be good. But if they were to come in planning to change the class, by say upping the Min weight then it would be a disaster for the class. I do not believe there is room in the market for another 16 foot boat around 130kg. We already have one and it's called a Spitfire in the EU. There is also the H16 with a Spi.

Hobie / Nacra building to the current class rules would be excellent news. An extablished builder building boats at 104 / 107 for sailing single handed and 2 up would be very good.

Building heaviy boats for sailing 2 up only would be the end of the class as we have it now.

For single handing all up weight is the driving factor IMO. 104 is OK, 130kg is not.

Its our game, they must play by our rules.

I also think Nacra/Hobie or even Cirrus in Europe would boost sales.
I also think they won't consider building an F16 at the current weight.
EDIT: I'm not in favour of changing any class rules because a 'big' manufacturer wants to enter the class. APHC has also built an F16 to the current rules, they just aren't that knows in Europe als Hobie or Nacra are.

The best thing is to get in touch with Hobie/Nacra pro sailors at events and check out what they think about the concept, class rules, ....

Gill

I recognise I am peripheral to the F16 class (I prefered it when the Spitfire was in the class), but I'd just say to hang in there - the F16 concept is good. Sailors will decide what's right for them, most likely based on what is happening in their country and local clubs.

If a big manufacturer developed an F16, that would only help. If they built something heavier, or slower, it wouldn't be an F16, unless you dcide it is.

I am not sure the big boys will ever consider the F16's as their market place, they make robust beach cats not racing cats which the F16's are. There are just too few hard core racers willing to spend 10k on a boat and once those hard core have boats then you aren't going to sell many more without changing the design regularly.

Certainly from a previous business I learnt early on you have to look at the mass markets and not the niche market for big number sales. To the likes of the niche manufacturers like Stealth however there lies a small rich market of budding racers, a small enough market not to interest the big boys and yet big enough for small adaptable companies to make a good living.

The only time this situation will change is if one of the big boys decides to make a 16ft robust beach cat at about 125kgs to replace an existing out dated model, their brand name plus loyal customer base will buy in the knowledge there resale value will be high, initial cost not to much, longevity will be good, adaptable 1 up or two sailing and they will only be 30 seconds slower over 1 hours sailing in an emerging racing class <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

So the first question is really: Will F16 reach its goal with the current builders?

If yes then who cares if the big builders come and play?

If he answer is no, then the following needs to happen:-

I think the class needs to work out why a major builder is not involved or even expressing a desire to be involved.

Then the class should assess if they want to make the changes needed to get the big builders interested.

If the answer is no, then the class will just have to be happy with the current state.

And the big builders can continue to make robust beach cats and not these mysterious racing cats Wayne speaks of!

There is another simpler way, hypothetically speaking.

An existing company, let's say Hobie, could simply contract with an existing builder, Vectorworks perhaps; for a number of boats each year and simply "rebadge" the boats. This would eliminate the R&D costs to said company, provide a test run to determine viability, and give the existing factory an outlet for unused capacity.

Everbody wins. Further, this hypothetical company might offer existing boat owners the opportunity to "rebadge". The company would gain instant exposure, the boat owner would gain access to a dealer network and class infrastructure.

I think that would just reduce margins.... Or more likley increase retail prices to retain margins.

I give you the Nacra A3, the Melvin designed and built A cat marketed by Nacra. If the A cats can do it with their low numbers but dedicated A cat sailors, then the F16's can do it too, if they want to.

BTW, while Nacra has come out with about 3 different F18's in the last 3 years, Hobie is still selling the same old Tiger and doing quite well with it.

Is it really the same Tiger? As I understand it there have been a lot of changes to the boat, but perhaps not very visible ones.

I also heard that the A3 is no longer being produced or marketed by Nacra. Rumor though so it can be very wrong.

I don't know exactly what has changed over the years, I know the sails obviously, mabye the rudders and boards? I think the basic hulls, beams and mast are the same. At least it looks the same at a distance, where the Nacra's hulls are quite different from year to year.

Yes, the A3 is a really nice boat. There is one in Australia now and it looks fantastic. However there is a good reason why the A3 is not imported (marketed) by the Nacra Distributor on Australia, its the same reason why the A3 is not actively marketed by Nacra Europe.

Margin

If you have too many fingers in the pie there just isn't enough to go around.

Also I think you might be a little bit out with its more like 12 years... but who's counting hey <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

The Tiger you buy new today is very different from the older ones.

I dont think the older ones even had sub decks.

The Tiger is actually a french design, the name escapes me now. But you still see the original boats in France and they look identical to a Tiger, same deck mouldings even!

maybe its an Aldao??

Anyhow the point is that Hobie could have sub contracted the build of the tiger to the original builder and put a Hobie sticker on it, but it just doesn't make sense to do that when you are a volume manufacturer and you have the skills and infrastructure in house.

Bad example i'm afraid <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Quote from M&Ms website:
Morrelli & Melvin Design & Engineering, Inc. is now manufacturing and selling the A3 catamaran.

The A3 design has been proven on the race course with the 2nd and 3rd place wins at the 2007 Ronstan A-Class Catamaran Worlds in Florida. Elite sailors have complemented the A3 on its consistent speed and competitive feel both upwind and downwind.

Concepts and design enhancements made by Pete Melvin with contributions from Jeremy Laundergan of Askland Engineering have made the A3 the boat to beat in the future. The Morrelli & Melvin A3 replaces the NACRA A2 catamaran. Performance Catamaran is no longer selling the NACRA A2 model, allowing their company to focus on the tremendously popular NACRA Formula 18 (Infusion) catamaran.

Morrelli & Melvin's move to produce and sell the A3 benefits the customer with personal attention to the boat from order to delivery. European and Asian athletes will find the Morrelli & Melvin A3 is very affordable due to the strength of the overseas currencies. Contact Morrelli & Melvin for prices, shipping costs and delivery time quotes.

Macca: The name you are looking for is Alado (The Mystere Twister's design is also based on the Tiger).

IMHO producing boats like the Stealth on a large scale and for the price it is selling now would be commercially impossible (staff, overhead, etc).
If I where a builder and would invest in a design I would want to be sure it is protected and cannot be used by others (Unlike the Blade for instance).

Macca, the Infusion has only just come out over here (well, last year) and the boat before that was only around for one or two years, and the boat before that was a replacement for the Inter 18, which did come out quite a while ago. I was not even talking about the Inter 18 but now that you bring it up, it came out about the same time as the original Tiger, is that correct? 1996?

I think Tikipete has the right idea. Has been in the back of my mind for a long while too.

Wouter

Macca,

Alado F18 was the original


Now, take care that you will not be going to rehash all old points again, okay ?

Wouter

Tim, I was using your "3 boats" as my reference, so yes there have been 3 Nacra F18 designs over the lifespan of F18. I think the inter 18 was released about 1996 but I might be out by a year or so.
The Infusion was released in 2006.

Might be in the back of your mind but I think its a long way further back in the minds of the big builders <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I am just assisting with the discussion, remember the original question in the thread was asking where F16 sailors thought the class should go in the future and if that future involved the large builders.
I am offering a point of view that may give light to the reason big builders are not involved currently and some pathways to getting them involved... If that is what the sailors want.

I understand.

Wouter

I think the future of the F16 class is to continue to be the F16 class. It was formed on some sound scientific considerations and an appreciation of the situation were our target group is finding themselves. I.e. sailors looking for a versatile recreational racer and/or a versatile boat for high performance pleasure sailing.

Therefor the goal and path of the F16 class are clear and it shouldn't matter much at all who produces F16 boats to forfill the F16 demand. Or on who joins or who leaves.

I fail to see significantly larger attractive benefits with a big builder then with a small builder. I'm not impressed much by say the Inter-17 or FX-one classes. If that is all that a big builder can offer then I much rather have "a small" builder like VWM. More impressive results and less complaining.

I think the identifier "small" and "big" are intepreted in a way that hints "inferiour" and "superior" when in fact there is more reason to intepreted it the other way around.

Lets face it guys an amateur designer called Phill Brander simply outclassed the "greatest design minds" of the big builders, with a shoestring budget. He is a "small" designer but created a "big" design !

I think all discussions on where we want to be in the future combined with whether a big builder will join or not are pointless. It is up to a builder to decide to join us and not the other way around where the F16 class will decide to join a builder.

We have been doing well without ANY support from a big builder in the past and there is absolutely no reason to believe that we won't be doing fine without them in the future.

Big builder support for a class is highly overrated in my opinion. I refer again to the I-17 and FX-one classes. Wew have gotten far more meaningful support from "small" builders.

Wouter

Good point. If you consider that the value proposition of a class involves some combination of the merits of the boat itself and the benefits of being able to sail with lots of others of the same class (the "network effect"), I would say that for the F16 that balance leans a little more towards the merits of the boat itself than it may for some other classes. Of course growth is good and we should pursue it, but as far as my own enjoyment is concerned I've been perfectly happy sailing (until late last season) as the solitary F16 in a fleet of N20/F18/F17/Tornados.

From a lurker's perspective
Let's say Hobie? Maybe never, or at least not for another three to five years, absolute minimum. The NA class association had enough power to squelch the addition of the spinnaker to the H16. They will try to protect this boat 'til death. H16's, as of now, can't be built fast enough to meet demand (local dealer ordered seven for this year, will receive two, five are on back order). Silently, among the Hobie class racers, your support is building. I'd say you have at least a 20% approval rating now. Mind you, at some point, people will make a move. Don't change a thing!!! As Mary stated (in another thread) the current weight is a HUGE selling point. USA Hobie sailors don't need a EU made boat, too costly, and for the simple exchange rate (dollars) reason I doubt the Tiger will ever approach any appreciable share of the overall Hobie Class racing. Will Performance offering an F16 sway any of the Hobie class, maybe, but doubtful. The infrastructure is what's hard to replace. I say hold your ground and be patient, follow the growth of the A Class. At some point (hopefully sooner than later) the F16 may be considered as a step up from the H16 and make sense to Hobie...hopefully.

Interesting question... What is the value added if you have a large builder behind your class?

IMO, a large builder does not help that much in growing the class.

Tornado has Marstrom, Probably not considered a big builder and the T class runs their class racing. Not a widely popular boat but the Olympic circuit drives the most active competitive racing circuit in the world. Marstrom does not know the meaning of the word “marketing: (Bottom line… no support for the “big builder is essential notion”)

A class, Has LOTS of small builders contributing new designs. No one builder dominates and the class runs their life. Much better grass roots support of the rank and file for the A class. Marketing is by the builder who wants to go racing on his boat around the world (Asby, Marstrom, Melvin etc etc) marketing is by word of mouth by a few fanboys…. The rank and file really markets the unique performance advantage of A class (positive spin) or exclusivity (negative spin) of the class. (No support for the big builder is important notion)

F16 class… A couple of small builders… no marketing campaign… A HUGE and vocal fanboy base that never misses a chance to talk about the boat… resulting in a bit of a mismatch between the noise on the wires… and noise on the water. (no support for the big builder notion.)

F18 class, Lots of builders, large and small… BUT… uses the marketing campaigns of the big builders to promote the class as the working man’s.. not quite Olympic class… The marketing approach is to put Tornado pro’s into the puddle with amateur sailors. This is perceived to strongly influence consumer choices… eg guys who are constantly trying to measure up. (This is the only example that I can come up with where the big builders have a positive impact on class growth)

So… in my opinion… the big difference is the marketing dollars invested by the big builders. The two large builders have more visibility to the consumer and the big marketing PR campaign helps with making the class visible. This has proven to be the big advantage to growing the class. However, In the USA… the class growth certainly seems to have stalled on the east coast so obviously more marketing is needed!

Do these big companies help the class organization more so then the small builders?
Sure!

Performance Cats in the USA. Probably considered a large builder ... Controls the class rules under the SMOD principle ... Not much owner provided class organization and leadership ... Basic attitude... Jack Y will make the nationals happen and he does. (F17 F18 and N20 classes). Certainly contributes to the marketing BS in the F18class… previously hyped the N20 class… then the F17 class by getting current DN Worlds champ onto those boats.

Hobie (USA and Australia) Clearly THE large builder in the game and the creator of the SMOD philosophy for cats. Times are changing of course and for our purposes (high performance racing), it would seem that the Hobie 16 and Tigers are the last fiberglass boats they will build… No doubt they lead the world in the marketing hype with the factory team in F18’s. The class association is viable runs the racing for the rank and file.
The factory has made substantive donations to the class (see big trailer etc etc)

Capricorn/Taipan…. Probably considered a large builder. Time have changed for them as well and they play the marketing game to a bit lesser extent. Currently the only one of the three that does not have a single handed spin boat class to sell…. (thus the question to the F16 class).

Do the big builders contribute to the self destructive behavior of the F18 Class because of the business plans they are running?
Well (flame suit on) YES!!!
The F18’s separate into Hobie Tiger nationals… (get rid of ALL your F18 mods)… the Nacra F18 class runs their own nationals… (get rid of ALL your F18 mods). … and the NAF18 class can’t seem to control the troops. So… for 08… you have three nationals scheduled. Nobody can explain why this makes sense.

The notion that each of the builders host a coastal 3 day open (all types of F18’s invited ) championship and the NAF18 class hosts a one week long North Americans seems to not be a good solution.

So IMO, it’s tough to make an argument that a big builder push is critical. Could a big builder contribute to class growth… sure.. How much compromise is needed… ah well that’s the crux of it now!

I dunno, but I wouldnt call VMI a small builder. Yeah they build the blades in a small corner of the plant but the blade is only a small venture of the company. They do plenty of big big stuff. Specially military vessels.

Last time I was at the plant they were about to remove the deck of a 60+ foot racing power boat. IMO that is not small. The machinery and man power they have is amazing. By no means small.

Only the people that own F16s get it.

I didn't buy my Blade because I wanted a maintsream boat. Yes, I want the class to grow but I want it to be because of the merits of the boat not who makes them. The light weight ensures the manufacturers use high quality materials and processes.

If you don't like fast, light, race boats then move on. There are a lot of heavy tanks on the market already.

The "threat", if you can call it that, is to the Tiger. The F16 solves the crew/weight issue.

I think the H-16 will be around a long, long time.

I wouldn't call it a threat, I'd call it the sensible alternative that can't be ignored. I'm also not saying the H16 will ever go away, the alternative Hobie boats, at a price not predicated by EU exchange rates, was this last year narrowed down to...nothing.

There's our class motto! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

And the Draw for me was more about the ability to switch off, race Uni or two up, depending on conditions and crew availability. The light weight was the second consideration and the price was the third.

I could have easily bought a used A cat, which is lighter, but I like the spinnaker too much to give that up. Simply put, the F16 is the lightest, cheapest, most flexible (crew wise) platform out there today, and where I live there is a fleet.

If there were absolutely no other F16's near me, I would have bought something else, what ever the popular boat was I guess, because I do not like scoring on corrected time. That is probably what is holding back growth in some areas, availability of F16 fleets to race with, but with every new boat sold, there is a new fleet building.

It will take time, it took the F18 about 4 years to catch on over here in the USA and that was with both Nacra and Hobie pushing them, hard. But every time a F16 beats a F18, uncorrected, the F18 skipper has to wonder if he made the right choice! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

That's an interestijng point as I was the opposite. I bought an F16 because I wanted something light, fast and fun to sail. There are no other active F16's at my club - there is one that never goes out as far as I can see. We have one Inter 17 and 3 shadows, 2 tornados, loads of Dart 18's that never move, a handfull of Hurricane 5.9's and loads of Sprint 15's (Dart 15).

If I had wanted fleet racing I should have bought the Sprint 15. I wanted a light, high performance single hander with a Spi. Only choice was a F16.

I ordered my Stealth R (Little Feat) in 2001 when F16's hadn't been conceived. And although recently sales have been fairly good I am still surprised at how slowly the Class is actually growing in Europe for no apparent reason hence the thread. How many professionally manufactured F16's are going to be sold in Europe this year compared to the F104? If we are not careful we might gain an elitist title for all the wrong reasons.
Please don't get me wrong my heart is in the right place and I want the Class to gain the sustainability and credibility it deserves but it's not going to be an easy ride and things might have to change.

An effective way is to sell your cat 2nd hand and buy a new boat for yourself.
The threshold for people to buy a 2nd hand boat is a lot lower than a new one.

Reality check boyz....

Everyone here is whining about something for nothing. The manufacturers are very interested in the F104 class <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />. Get over it.

Bob <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

true... but still need the money for a new one

[putting on his moderator hat]

Bob, please be constructive and polite, not provocative.

[taking off his moderator hat]

Hi Tony
Both Dave T and myself sold our first Stealth's last year and purchased new. Dave's is now being raced at Mumbles and mine is enjoying a long deserved holiday in France!!

Does anybody have the number of F16 produced in europe last year, say compaired to FX-ones ?

Who is saying the F104 are selling in large numbers ? Or FX-ones or I-17's or whatever the next scare is.

I think we have a touch of "grass is greener on other side of fence" here guys.

All classes from F16 to FX-one are dealing with the same situation. Catsailing is not as hot as it used to be 25 years ago.

None of the other classes is doing better then the F16's in absolute numbers and also not in world coverage. So why are we getting nervous all the time ? The other classes have got to crack some tough nuts before they can match the F16's over a broad front, currently they can't. That means that we have the advantage at this time and if we just play our cards well then we'll keep that advantage in the future.

We simply have to let go of any desires/expectations that quick growth is at all possible in todays markets.

Wouter

I can't quite agree with that (especially being in the UK).

If you had wanted light, high performance single hander with a Spi and with the option to sail two-up with jib and second trapeze, or a formula design single-hander, then I'd agree... That's the strength of the F16.

Whilst Bob was being a bit cheeky, he does have a point..

The volume manufacturers are more likley to support 104 over F16 given the current rules of each class.

No problem for F16, unless the class growth plans/desires are such that the small builder approach won't suffice.

Two points :

What do you mean by "... more likely ..." ?

Are they still "Uhhmm and Ahhh"-ing about that option as well; is "more likely" the same as "likely" ?


And what do you mean by "... given the current rules of each class. " ?

As the F104's don't have any class rules yet, were we do.


Wouter

the rules for 104 are simple: must rate 104! easy <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

It is much easier for a volume manufacturer to build a boat that rates 104 than it is to build a F16. So therefore it is more likley. (a more attractive option)

And the big boys are not afraid of an arms race in the F104 in the way you say they are in the F16 class ?

Put some lead on an A-cat and voila it is a F104 !



But I also would like you to ask the following and make use of your expertise when it comes down to matters related to big builders. This is a serious question as I really like to know this.

In all honesty, how likely do you feel it is that the big builders will abbandon their FX-one and Inter-17 one-design classes in favour or building and marketing a purpose build F104 ? Including updating it continiously to keep it competitive in this one-rule F104 class ?

Second question :
How likely is it that both (Nacra and Hobie) will get into the F104 together under the above conditions.


Wouter

I think everything that needed to be said, and then some, about the 104, big builders and the F16 class have been said several times already the last month. It is the same persons returning with the same arguments yet again.

The original question was:


The question is not about the 104 or other classes.
For me the obvious answer is that having the marketing resources of Nacra or Hobie behind the F16 would be good.


[moderator hat on]
Macca,
With recent threads fresh in mind, I find it sensible for everyone to keep the temperature down on this topic.
[moderator hat off]

Both builders are activley building 104 boats an have recently optimised them for 104

The Hobie FX-Xtreme and the Nacra F17 (with new mast) are two recent examples of big manufacturers putting effort into 104.

Temperature is well down here <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> (well as much as it can be in Sydney during summer!)

That Hobie Extreme is a "Proust Sailing" project and not officially santioned or supported by Hobie Europe or Hobie in general. The standard Hobie FX-one (both 1-up and 2-up) has a rating of 1.035 under SCHRS which is lower then 1.040. The FX-one is a foundation boat of the F104 class ?

The Nacra 17 (or F17 as nacra would have it) is a singlehander with a SCHRS rating of 1.005 which is alot lower then the 1.04 rating and therefor NOT F104 compliant.

The Nacra 17 sailed as a 2-up boat with jib still has a SCHRS rating of 1.022, which is again faster then 1.04 and also not F104 compliant.

The "new" nacra 17 as specified by Nacra Europe is a singlehander with a SCHRS rating of 1.028 which is lower then 1.040; even with the smaller 17 sq. mtr. spi its rating is 1.034, thus making both new versions non F104 compliant.

The 2-up version of this "new" Nacra 17 has a rating of 1.047 under SCHRS and is already to be considered less race competitive then the true 1.040 rated boats which are typically 1.035-1.040 designs rounded off to 1.040. The difference being almost a minute per hour racing.

If this is "actively building 104 boats" then I don't want to know how it looks like when they are slacking on the job !



So my conclusion is that :

-A- You show yourself that neither Hobie or Nacra is interested in letting go of their Inter-17 and FX-one designs. By extension, nothing we do as F16's class will ever interest them seriously in this direction.

-B- Neither boats are F104 compliant as they are now and we have to take your word for it that they will be in the future. We have yet to se the "new' nacra 17 for 2-up to be measured. We have to trust their website supplied specs.

-C- There is no coordinated effort of Nacra and Hobie to go F104. It is more a case of luck where the F104 class happens to be close to were the Nacra 17 and FX-one already were before anybody coined the idea of F104.

-D- Everything else appears to be just rumours, gossip and wishful thinking.


If so then I'm done with this thread hijack and propose that both Macca and myself go back to the main topic which is the F16 future as the F16 members see it.

Wouter

Excuse me but you are playing the Internet Muppet again. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Taking off my moderators hat.

You're not provoking, you're taunting. I don't care personally, but you annoy some folks and are in danger of being "shunned".

Please note that this is not the general forum. It is the F16 forum. We regulars have coalesced around the class. We believe in it and enjoy our boats and others who sail them. That alone is testament to the growing strength of the class; a sense of identity not dependant on the views of others.

It is my opinion that you are sailing a dinosaur and only your very excellent sailing skills make it look good.

Shall we put together a Formula Challenge? F boats only? The 17s and 18s have greater depth of experience and talent, you should win easily. Nevertheless, the F16 will win any number of admirers and converts. I don't think the other F boats will do either.

Time to put up, dude! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

To my understanding there is no such thing as the 104 class at the moment.

Just in france for some regattas the slow fleet is been renamed the 104 class.

It does not seem great to me to spend 12-15 euros to try and be the fastest in the slow fleet.

If I was there I would get a spitfire or a f18 for the racing.

Whoops I am in france and I got a f16 due to my back.





bye

Basicaly when we speak of the big builders we have Nacra and Hobie. They already have product that is at or very close to this. It is expensive to tool up for a new model, and even more so if you want light as not only the glass work needs tooled, but extrusions and likely new fittings.

The catamaran world is pretty small and building additional models fragments it even further. If I was either of these builders I would not consider making a true F16 from a business standpoint, but grasping concepts like a 104 would be interesting to promote what I already have.



A full blown spin boat wheter it is 16 or 18 feet is pretty close to the same cost. Fittings wise it is the same, labor wise it is the same, you just save a couple of sf of laminate in the hulls and a couple of square feet of sail material.I have lost count on how many changes the F17 has gone through, and the FX1 is following suit all to try and get some form of volume moving in those brands as they have never reached a volume mometum either despite the name and comapny backing both those models have. A heavy weight F16 or baby F18 if you want to call it that, serves no purpose in my opinion. The costs can not be enough lower to generate its own large scale market and it serves to to potentialy deplete the current F18 class by fragmenting the limited number of cat sailors out there.

The F16 rule as it applies now, does attract a somewhat different buyer with a noticably lower class weight and the versatility of the rules. The people who have them seem very loyal and it fits well with a number of buyers. I am in this becuase of the boat as it fits my needs perfectly. Whether the class lives up to or surpasses the F18 standard is yet to be seen. If there is ever a large enough growth, the big builders will tool up. I do not think that matters now, for what it is worth in my view.

Matt

What does that SL16 youth cat rate? Is that where the 104 thing came from? Does anyone really design and build a boat to a rating number instead of class rules?

Early on, I was challenged by experienced F18 sailors to race them boat for boat. I'm now ready to accept that challenge. I probably won't win, but the boat should do well enough to vindicate my decision to buy it, and provide a subjective comparison to those interested in formula boats generally.

So it is settled then.

We got very valuable support from the F16 builders we have now (and we're expecting to add a 4th builder soon) and the Big Boys will just have to join us or continue pottering about with their current models which we F16's have beaten in direct market competition already ! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

That combined with the fact that every F16 owner is happy with the F16 class rules as they are now and doing his and her bit in F16 promo.

I see only clear skies ahead ! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Wouter

Ohh God ! The SL16.

It was a step up from the H16 as the youth boat but apart from that it is pretty uninteresting.

It is actually rated slower then the H16 when that boat is without a spi kit ! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

They should just have chosen the Nacra 500 as the new youth boat after fitting a spi to it and force nacra to allow licensed production of it by other builders.

It would have resulted in a better boat for the youth that is far more attractive to non-youth sailors as well; additionally it has a quite substantial second hand market available world wide (the older nacra 5.0 that can easily be converted)

Nacra actually has got an unrecognized winner in the Nacra 500 but they don't do much with it. It still amazes me why they entered the Nacra blast in the ISAF evaluation and not the Nacra 500 !

That little Nacra 500 is in my opinion one of the best small catamarans ever designed. And it is a @#%^# load cheaper then that overrated SL16 as well.

Now Nacra is supporting both One-Design classes that are really mutually exclusive. And now they are hung up as they can't drop either one at this time. The Nacra 500 is selling while the SL16 isn't, but the SL16 is the official youth class where the Nacra 500 isn't. Without Nacra in USA, only Sirena will remain as the SL16 producer which is not acceptable to ISAF under the terms stated for the youth boat.

I don't know who was responsible for this bit of business policy of Nacra over the last few years but he needs to go back to business school.

In my cold hard judgement, the best thing Nacra can do here it drop the SL16 like a hot potato, write off the associated costs and start campaigning hard with the Nacra 500. SL16 will die everywhere over night and only survive in France. Then in time it will just become the new youth boat anyway as their will not be an alternative other then the H16 with spi kit. Actually that Nacra 500 with spi is a much more capable competitor to the F16's then the Nacra 17 is or probably ever will be. That is at least how the potential customers I speak with are evaluating the situation.(Don't worry, we're working to close that gap)

Or at least that is my personal opinion.

Wouter

guys... don't know why you took the bait. I posted immediately after he posted so hopefully people wouldn't see that he had posted.
gotta ignore him or he'll never stop posting stupid [censored]. I would love it if one of the moderators would delete stuff like that.

now, if he ever says anything helpfull then sure it would be great.

Any thought of you guys going to Carnac? The more we can get on the water there the better. I checked google maps and it looks like a nine hour drive from Geneva.

EVERY F16 owner? How do you know that?

The wierd thing with the FX-Extreme is that there are parts for it in the new parts guide. But the FX-Extreme parts are not OD legal. It's just odd.

Thats beause it is supported by Hobie Europe... They see a future in selling boats that meet 104.

Yea Wouter, how do you know that considering there are loads of F16 Sailors who don't even bother getting involved in this forum!! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Because he is the class spokesman <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Not sure I would want to be following Hobie Europes lead if the FX1 has got anything to go by, great two man mini F18, poor single hander, Hobie Europe just got things wrong and is now trying to fit a design into a new market ( rather than fitting an intended market ) to try and recover some of their design outlay.

Anyway why all the discussion, we have now probably around 200 F16 boats out there actively sailing, why upset those owners by changing things at this stage, I for one would be setting up a F16 lightweight class if ever there was a change to a heavier detuned version, as the boats as they are, are just toooooooo much fun. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

More Welsh humour, Mark ?

Wouter

None have submitted a proposal with the GC for fundamental rule changes yet, so it might be safe to say that all are happy?

Wayne, if by some magic the min weight was raised, the rest of the class would stampede after you. But the min weight is not going to be raised, so the topic is mute.

I dont think this guy would spend the winter in my garage aiming for min weight if he was not certain the weight would stay where it is.



What I dont get is why people are so fascinated by the question, letting macca goad them on in a discussion not going anywhere. I can only imagine the reactions to the same agenda on the Mosquito forum, the F18, Tornado, A-class, Taipan or just about any other class. It would be utterly ridicilous, but here.. I dont get it.

"What I dont get is why people are so fascinated by the question, letting macca goad them on in a discussion not going anywhere"

Easy one to answer that question, haven't counted but I would guess that the majority of participants on this site don't actually own or have sailed a F16 boat ( and I think Macca fits into that slot ).

I think you are right there Wayne.

Boys, I hate to tell you but I was one of the first <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I had a 14ft skiff and F20 kite on m Taipan 4.9 in 1995...

been there done that.

Still got the boat?

nope, now the only boat i own is the Super Taipan, and that is a heavy underpowerd shitter <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Rolf, Just because I haven't submitted a new taxation proposal to my government doesn't mean i'm happy with the situation <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />





Aside from the fact that I didn’t start this discussion I think there are a few points that need to be made:-

I agree that a lighter boat is a better boat to sail, but that does not make it a better class or even a better race boat.

Take F18 for example, the boats are heavy for their size, but that has no impact on the quality of the racing or any real impact on the joy of sailing the boat. I get the same buzz from sailing the F18 as I do sailing the Super Taipan.

Now have a look at two yacht classes:-

Farr 40 and Sydney 38. The F40 is a lighter, more powerful and a lot faster than the S38. But the racing in the Sydney 38 class is better imho. The boats are closer in speed due to the lower power/weight ratio so the racing is closer and rewards better tactics rather than who gets one extra wave. In Europe you have the X35 class with huge fleets and close racing, The boat is simple to build, cheap and easy to sail. But the racing is great..

F16 was conceived with the Taipan as the baseline of the class. The Taipan hullshape was not designed with F16 sail configuration in mind and as such it is not optimised for carrying a spi, this has been confirmed by the designer of the boat. The platform weight on a taipan is low because of the low surface area/volume in the hulls and sub standard beams for F16. Newer designs have taken the needs of spi sailing into account and as such the hull volume has increased. You can’t increase hull volume/surface area without either:-

a) increasing weight
b) reducing layup to maintain weight (less strength, not a good idea with increased loads from a spi)
c) use more exotic materials to maintain weight (increase costs)

So the evolution of the hull shapes has meant that its now very hard to build a boat to min weight. The Blade is larger than the Taipan but I think the fastest hull shapes across a broad range of conditions (particularly 2 handed) will end up more like the Viper which is larger again.

So now you have a choice:-

a) have a boat on min weight that has a sub optimal hull shape
b)have an optimal hull shape that's overweight
c) have an optimal hull shape that's on weight but costs a lot to build due to the need for exotics

So to build a F16 with the new larger volume hulls and have it on weight you are talking about building a boat close to the standard of an A class.

Herein lies the problem for F16… If a builder were to build a boat with the new larger volume hull shape and did that to minimum weight you would have to resort to exotics in the hulls (possibly beams) and for sure mast. So based on the current costs of an A class (around 21k Euro) I think a F16 would be around that price.

Note: The savings you make on the F16 by possibly not using carbon beams etc are more than taken up by the expense of:-

Jib
Self tacker
Spi and pole etc
Extra rigging etc

Hands up who wants to pay 21k Euro (33k USD these days <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ) for a F16 built with the new hull shape and to the current rules?

Now before you all come down on me for being nasty, let me say this:-

I like the boats, the class is a good idea. But I can see that its growth will be hindered by the above issues and attacking me for expressing a valid point of view only takes away from the positives that the class currently has and reduces the opportunity for the class to reach is ultimate potential.

Maybe I missed something, but aren't the VWM blades F16 an F16 built to F16 specs? and they don't cost 33k or 21k for that mater

just qualified my statement, by editing my post.

Hi all just because no proposal has been submitted as yet does not mean it's not going to happen. These things take time to formulate and get right.Then everyone will have the opportunity to vote for or against.
One further question who do these proposal need to be sent to?

[/quote]
Maybe I missed something, but aren't the VWM blades F16 an F16 built to F16 specs? and they don't cost 33k or 21k for that mater [/quote]

You should put your boat on a set of scales then let all of us no what it weighs then we will see if it's built to specs.

Maybe I missed something, but aren't the VWM blades F16 an F16 built to F16 specs? and they don't cost 33k or 21k for that mater [/quote]

You should put your boat on a set of scales then let all of us no what it weighs then we will see if it's built to specs. [/quote]

How close would it have to be to fall under the definition of "to specs?" I have been meaning to weigh mine for a long time.
Seriously, I am curious.

For some reason this comment crossed my mind while I was driving home tonight and I realized I didn't understand it - by my count, we already have 4 builders. Are you leaving someone out?

And you know we really want to know who the new builder is!

You should put your boat on a set of scales then let all of us no what it weighs then we will see if it's built to specs. [/quote]

How close would it have to be to fall under the definition of "to specs?" I have been meaning to weigh mine for a long time.
Seriously, I am curious. [/quote]

I would say that the boat has to meet the min weight limits set by the class, in both cat and sloop rig configs. That would be to spec.

What Macca said.

Did anybody notice hypothetical was changed to hypocritical...!!!

I think you will all find that no submissions for rule changes will be proposed at the next AGM as there are no national associations that are fully ratified by the GC.?

With out NA's, submissions would be a waste of time.?

There, I fixed it <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Guys you are still kicking a dead horse. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Why not build your own class and let us know how it goes.. OK? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

No we flogg dead horses....dont kick em.. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

In the mountains of North Carolina they clog with their horses.

Hippopotamus question?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtqIM_bPTws

Macca,

Now you are rehashing all old discredited arguments again.

Do you know that the current bare F16 platforms are actually LIGHTER then the bare Taipan platforms.

Why ? because the mast section as mainbeam and the small but thickwalled box rearbeam are very heavy for the strength and stiffness they provide. It was a piece of cake to reduced weight on both them and also increase stiffness and strength, without changing the material.

Also the selftacker in plain form is lighter and cheaper then the old Taipan setup. No need for any exotic materials there, just plain common sense.

Similar data is available on many other "problems points" as you call them.

Endlessly repeating the same BS is not making them is any less untruthfull.

We have been done this path many times now and you keep refusing to be convinced by science and verifiable numbers. You keep coming back with argumentation that feels right because you simply gloss over or ignore conflicting data. Just like many people can be made to believe that when they have gotten 3 daughters already that there is a larger chance they'll be getting a son next; which isn't true either.

Simply put, what you say and write is NOT TRUE and have been proven as such in REAL F16 boats and by public comments made by F16 builders like Matt McD. from VWM.

Wouter

Do sombody dare to put their cat on the scal? With the fat spar (19kg) that I recived for the Sydväst one I don't get down even close to specs.

But that wouldn't include the Viper which is a F16 platform.

So whose sweeping statement is correct then?

Ok, So how many current F16 boats are under min weight?

And further, what percentage of the known fleet are under min weight?

That should give us some science to work with <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

The F16 class rules don't require any NA or any other organisation to be able to submit and complete proposals for rule changes.

In fact the F16 class rules don't recognize an AGM in any official manner either. Therefor you reasoning is in error on both accounts.

Wouter

That is indeed correct. This doesn't include the Viper. It does include all other F16 designs however. AHPC was never even trying to get the Viper down the F16 weight anyway; this pretty much disqualifies the Viper as a counter example.

Wouter

Now that is strange logic.

It is marketed as a F16 by AHPC (reference is http://www.ahpc.com.au/m_viper.htm), it is designed to be a F16 (again reference is same link), it measures as a F16, but you have disqualified it from your argument as it doesn't fit to your view as the boat is well above minimum.

Maybe we can get the moderator to start a new thread titled :

"The sky is falling and we're all going to be dead soon !"

For the non-F16 member, non F16 owning Aussies to play in ?


With respect to the Viper. By similar reasoning as you just applied we'll conclude that the Viper is its own proof that you can't build the Viper at 125 kg as claimed by AHPC themselves, afterall it was measured at 137 kg at the GC 2007 right ?

If I want to ride the merry-go-round then I'll go to an amusement park; not the F16 forum.

Wouter

Mark,
As you started this thread could you please advise if your question has been answered.
If not please advise what else you need to know
with regard to your original question.

But that's because rule changes are not governed by the class rules.
Rule changes and class administration are covered (as you well know, Wouter) by the class constitution. The Class Constitution IS the class and when NAs form and join the Class it is the constitution they sign up to. Without a constitution ratified by Member National Associations we don't have a class - we're all just pissing in the wind.

mine is....... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

So a Viper is a F16 when YOU want it to be one, but its not when it doesn't suit YOUR purpose?

How about you answer the question:-

How many current F16 boats are under min weight?

And further, what percentage of the known fleet are under min weight?

Someone must have the data! otherwise the "Science" you speak of is all theory....again...

Come on moderators, this thread is going around and around and around and around in circles going nowhere, isn't it time you did your jobs and get this forum back on track <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Agreed! Back on track or lock it.....

I thought we now had a class association in the United States. No? And how does a national association get "fully ratified"?

Sorry if I am asking something that has already been answered somewhere.

How can you even consider that the thread is off track??

The original question was asking if big manufacturers would be of benefit to the class if they were to build an F16 compliant boat.

The discussion has evolved to how the current builders are faring with meeting the current class rules particularly with regards to meeting the min weight rule. This has a major bearing on whether the big manufacturers actually get involved!!

So we are still very much ON topic here.

Just because the answers are not to your liking, the thread is still valid and moderators would be censors if they shut it down now.

Macca you steer every thread around to whether the big manufacturers can build to min weight. You have been there 20 times already, you are killing off any conversation we may have with the same gospel, give it a rest and go and do some sailing please, we would all be better off.

But could someone PLEASE weigh their F16? To see if it does indeed meet the min. weight specs given by the F16 box rule?

I mean, whether it is off topic or not, it is very interesting to see if the manufacturers can keep what they promise. Don't you all think??

I ddn't need to steer it at all!

That is the conversation!! the whole topic is about what I am talking about.



Now I am asking if the CURRENT builders can build to min weight <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

How about somebody supply the data we are asking for? the facts will either silence me or give me the credibility I crave so dearly <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Yes we have and there are boats already under 104 kilos, I beleive Hans ( the class chairman ) Blade had to ballasted up to meet the 104 kgs at the last GC. Stealth have been right on the limits since 2001. The weight limits are where the members want it to be.

So that is a total of ONE boat under min weight??

How about the actual real weight of the Stealths? has anyone actually weighed them properly?

Seems to me the most logical way to establish if the min weight is correct would be to check each boat that is considered to be F16 (don't use Wouters method of determining what an F16 is, fundamentally flawed...) and then decide based in the results if the weight needs reviewing. No point having a Min weight that only ONE boat meets!

The racing will not be fair and it needs to be fair if you want the class to grow. Or doesn't that little bit extra weight make any difference to performance?

The US has an Association already, to date it has not applied to the F16GC for membership but we expect that will change very soon. The AUS Association is currently being formed and I understand that an application for ratification will be made by them in the next few days.

There is a lot of positive work being done by people in several countries at this time to progress the class.

As the moderators seem unable to " moderate " for fear of being accused of censoring this thread, may I remind everbody of the original start of this thread.

"Would the F16 Class gain more respect and sailors if say either Nacra or Hobie developed a F16. I think most of us would agree that their marketing power and name certainly wouldn't do the Class any harm. I'm NOT trying to fan the flames of a recent thread but I'm interested in knowing how F16 Sailors feel about the future of the Class. Do they see it continuing as it is with just a small group of manufacturers servicing a small market or do people really expect F16's to be on a par with F18 sales in a couple of years time? "

Please, it had nothing to do with weight. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

If you don't want to hear what someone has to say, use your ignore button! And stop responding!

I have tried this remedy, it works.

For Hobie or Nacra to build a F16 it would have to be on he premise that the min weight was up for discussion so therefore it is STILL ON TOPIC.

So what? You have a way of irritating the other posters. Keep it up, eventually you will be ignored.

Speaking as a moderator, I see the current discussion as a repetition of what has been said from both sides many times over in several threads already.

I re-post what Phill posted earlier:


I think the message is pretty clear.
Lets move on.

Great, you don't like the way the discussion is going because the answers are not favourable so you stick your head in the sand hoping it will all go away...

Post deleted by RickWhite

Post deleted by RickWhite

"There is no discussion, just you showing your butt."

With the above comment, this is enough. I am going to have a chat with the site ownership on removing you as moderator. Way out of line Pete. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> Step down.

Bob <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

That's fine.

Personally, I find the discussion interesting, although it would be better if there were some facts available. Without facts, it just keeps going in a circle.

However, the premise is interesting. I'm still not sure why there is so much antagonism about it.

Nowhere in the original post was it stated that meeting the min weight rule was a condition of entry for Hobie or Nacra. It is accepted that Hobie and Nacra will not build a F16 to the current min weight so to have a discussion about them being involved is to also have a discussion about why they would not be involved.

AHPC don't meet the min weight rule and you allow the Viper to be called a F16!

Can somebody who has the weights data please post it? it is a valid question that has not been answered before.

Okay, this is interesting. I had to delete a post by a moderator who was unnecessarily insulting another poster, and I had to delete another post that a moderator should have deleted immediately.

Is this class moderator thing working? Talk about it, guys.

I think it is about money. The F16 has filled an existing niche and caused the devaluation of some boats. IMO, the 17 and 18 footers are just too heavy for a significant number of sailors. Speaking purely subjectively, my choices for a new boat, in order of preference were A class, F16, and Wave. I rejected the 17s and 18s for weight alone.

I'm fine with it. There is a lot of testosterone here. A few of us have agreed to disagree. That will not change.

Macca:

Excuse me for the previously censored post. I was offended by the cartoon. I apologize.

Is there a max weight rule? Correct me if I am wrong. Viper - 125 kg which is within the current weight rule. Thus, it meets the box rule relative to weight.

Kris
F-16 & F-18

I agree with Mary, it's interesting, and it,s about money...
wWhy not give the weights, me too as a homebuilder would like to see some figures.
To protect some there is a tip weight, and to get down to target with that on top there will be exotics below.

Macca:



Maybe that is why the original subject header was "Hypothetical Question"?

Kris
F-16 & F-18

Exactly, its is a discssion about "what ifs" and "maybe's"

So I am simply utilising those paramaters with my posts.

Hey,

you guys can bring your boats to Spring Fever and we can weigh them on the F18 scales for a small fee.

The A cats don't have a big manufacture and they had to cut the worlds in FL to 100 boats.

Hobie will never make an F16 it would kill the Hobie 16 class.

That sounds like a great idea. Maybe some "facts" will emerge.

There is already data from last years GC from various different designs. Dunno why it's not public even though it has been referred even from this thread.

Can't make it. Even I work occasionally.

Ok, due to the sudden meltdown in this thread I am locking it.

I will start a new thread where weight of current F16s can be posted by anyone with hard facts about the boats.
It is clear that the topic is highly explosive and everybody should respect that.