Actual real data from the GC in Zandvort 2007

So due to the fact that Rolf has deleted my posts in the F16 weight thread, I now have to start a new F16 weight thread.... funny hey <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Below is exactly what I posted in the previous thread:-

Now back to the topic



So from this information posted by the class chairman: One boat was under min weight and the average weight was more than 7kgs over min!!! and more than 10kgs for the cat rigged boats!!!

Now in any other class that would be the instigator for a major discussion on how to deal with such a problem. The solutions are:-

a) raise the min weight to reflect the real world actual measured boats.
b) take the builders to task and demand that they build the boats from that point onwards to the min weight.

Problem with solution (b) is that you instantly render the current heavy boats obsolete (unless you don't think that extra weight makes any difference??)

You are actually determined to be banned? How can it be made clear to you that this discussion is over, as it is not going anywhere? Come on, you are not stupid.

WHat is so wrong with posting the FACTS from the GC?

Come on, now you are calling me stupid. Let it go. You have hit the proverbial concrete wall on this topic.

Nowhere in any of my posts have I called you stupid, in fact I have been perfectly civil in all my posts.

What exactly is the problem with me posting the FACTS from the GC showing the average sloop was more than 7kg over min weight and cats were more than 10kg overweight??

maybe I am the stupid one, but I fail to see the issue here?

Macca:
Whats your point? I havent been reading the threads, so keep it simple. What is the point with all this weight discussion?

You really think I am stupid and dont see that you are harping on to have the min. weight raised. Jeez. Enough is enough, and you are at the end of that discussion.

Simple: the current class rule for min weight is not reflective of the current fleet.

Robi, I think he thinks the class min. wt. should be raise to reflect the actual wts. from the Global Challenge.

Your data is not valid, same with your intepretation of the facts.

The Viper was 137 kg, no wonder the AVERAGE of all boats is much higher then class weight. That Viper alone added (137-107)/10 = 30 kg/10 = 3 kg to all other boats ON AVERAGE.

It is like taking the average of the following series of numbers


1, 1 , 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 10

The average is 1.9 kg while the vast majority of numbers is actually only 1. An error of 90 % simply because one boat is such an outlier.

Then we had of course my own boat at 121.8 kg doing much of the same damage to the AVERAGE of all boats and singlehanders.

Basically, one needs to have only a few outliers to make the AVERAGE weight over a whole fleet totally undependable as we call such a thing in mathematics.

Again, no support for your opinion that F16's are heavy B'stards or that the class rules minimum is not reflective of the fleet.

Macca you should have finished high school then you have known about this stuff.

Wouter

Great,

So can somebody post the actual data???

SD is a factor for sure, but the only data I could find in the history is what I posted.



Lets keep the personal insults to a minimum or I will have to get Rolf in here to smack you <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Oh and I did finish high school, not saying if I passed though <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Wouter,

please dont argue with him. If he gets back on it, I'll take action. Would be kind of you to change your post and not give him an excuse.

You honestly think this merits a change in class rules? Just to reflect what is currently out on the circuit?

Robi, YES. You need to have class rules that reflect the current fleet. Otherwise what is the point in having the rules??

Robi, phhhlease. Dont fire him up. I am trying to stop his endless harping on this. Read the other weight threads if you havent been keeping up. There should be enough text to keep you busy for a while, and then some <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Data can be interpreted by any way people wants, most important thing here is: "2.7.1 Any Formula 16 class member may propose amendments, additions or changes to the rule. They will be supported in their efforts by the Formula 16 authority with respect to communication and be given the means to propose the amendments, changes or additions to the class as a whole."

As long as there are no official requests this whole discussion is pretty much pointless and doesn't change anything <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

That is right Valtteri, and that is why I am on the verge of locking it up now. Or just deleting the whole thing.

Just ignore him!!!
at least he fights for his point of view as opposed to our favorite guy who is a fan of the good ol hit and run.

Just trying to understand his point of view. I can see how things can get out of hand.

Im out. I got a huge T shirt order to start processing! Rolf you dont want a T? I have an order going to AUS, get em while they are HOT!

Scheise! I am coming with an order now! Have never used Paypal and got sidetracked.

This is interesting No one want to post actual data? On the other thread only one person was willing to post there actual boat weight. WHAT IS EVERYONE HIDING.I will post my boat weight in a couple of weeks when we all have our boats measured just waiting for national association to be sorted out.

We tried getting some weights in a structured way, but.. Alas. Nobody is hiding anything, but the topic is worn out.

Yeah, That thread went really well....

Wouter was the one person to post his boat weight taken from the GC.

I then attempted to post the average weights as posted by the class chairman and Rolf kept deleting my post!!

So how about someone from the class that has the information taken at the GC (the only international event to date) post the figures here?

No need to name owners, just list the boats with no sail numbers etc and the boat weight as per the records from the GC.

Then we will have some FACTS to discuss.

No, you are not going into boatweights and the F16 min weight. Gather weights, fine, but dont deviate.

How about we gather the data and let the discussion continue from there?

censoring a topic because its not in line with a particular moderators point of view is not in line with the job description.

If you have complaints with my actions, take it up with Mary, Rick or even the F16 GC.

Rolf,

I have sent Mary a PM protesting your actions and I am awaiting her response.

In the interim can we use the time for a good purpose and get someone to post the actual weights as taken at the GC?

Sure, no problem.

I fail to see any relevance between the minimum weight of the F16 formula “box rule” and the respective individual weights of the boats actually out there sailing that fall within that box rule.
IF, the F16 “class” of catamarans were a ONE DESIGN class, then yes the minimum weight would have a much greater significance, as most, if not all those cats would probably be “manufactured” by one “professional” builder and that minimum weight would/should be the consistent weight of each and every boat produced by that manufacturer.
BUT THE F16 IS NOT A ONE DESIGN CLASS. Its dimensions are bound by its box rule formula, whereby each cat eligible to compete within that class has only to fall within the maximum and the minimum dimensions of that box rule. The cats eligible to compete within this “class” can be built by ANYONE, and as such they will obviously vary in many different ways from one to another, and as long as they all still fall within the “box rule” (no matter who builds them or what their relative shapes) there should be no problem (or argument) As far as the minimum weight is concerned, it is one of the dimensions that is an objective to be achieved and if some boats at present do not get down to that weight then what does it really matter – some do weigh the minimum! – And more will as the class matures. It is not really a question of “why are some boats overweight” but more of not having the problem of boats regularly being sailed under weight and trying to compete below that weight without penalty. The minimum weight is a goal that is, at this time, not universally achieved, but like many classes before where many cats within those classes did not come in at their minimum allowable weight, over time they all did.
The Mosquito in Australia, which is a one design class of cat that is an “association defined” class (similar in many ways to the formula concept), for many years were all built “overweight” but for some years now they have all managed to be built at or below minimum weight and need to carry “correctors” to ensure that they fall within their allowable weight. During the 1970’s there was this same argument within the mosquito association that the minimum weights should be raised to “make it fairer for all the – heavy – boats, to compete”. They are all glad now that decision wasn’t taken.

So are you saying that there is no disadvanage in competing with a F16 that is heavier than the min weight?

Darryl,

What difference does it make that F16 is a box rule or One Design with regards to weight. Having a Blade thats 5kg overweight is the same as having a Stealth thats 5kg overweight!

Weight is only one of the parameters that builders/designers are able to optimize against.

Another book you may find useful - http://press.princeton.edu/TOCs/c8219.html

Jeez Macca, you are really being pedantic aren't you?
I fail to see the relevance of your questions pertaining to ANY "box rule" class. - You bring your boat and you race for, first across the line wins - That’s a formula. If you want to worry about the individual weights of individual boats you go and sail in a one design class (All their boats weigh the same – yeah right) or race on yardstick. Make your choice. If weight variation means so much to you why race at all, just weight the boats beforehand then award first place to the lightest boat without the necessity of getting your feet wet.
From your questions I can’t help but wonder why you don’t question the relative sail areas? What if one type of F16 cats all sail with their sails 1sqm less than the allowable maximum sail area? Would you be asking the same type of questions about the class for those reasons? IE “show me all the actual measurements taken of the sails as I don’t think it is fair that “those” cats were allowed to sail with a different sized sail plan”.
If as you intimate the actual weight of the cats relative to each other and to the minimum weight is SO critical to you then perhaps we should look at defining the “ideal” weight of the crew that sail on the boat and saying that – all crews SHALL only weigh between 75Kgs and 78Kgs, any crew who comes in over that weight shall be penalised by a sliding scale rating system and any crew under that weight shall have to carry “correctors” about their body. Your argument seems to be just that – an argument for the sake of argument – and pardon me for saying (please don’t take any of this personal) your arguments are beginning to appear a little irrelevant.

Andrew,

You question regarding data from Zandvoort can be answered. This info is fact, not fiction or opinion.

Average weight of the cat rigged boats was 109kgs
Average weight of the sloop rigged boats was 112kgs

I have included the 2007 VMW boats, the 2007 FCA boat, the 2007 Ned boats & the 2007 Stealths - all boats that are relevant to the discussion.

From a munufacturers point of view, our boat weighed 110.7kgs at the event & we have found 4kgs in savings since the event & looking for the last couple of kgs without compromising integrity or using exotics.

Therefore I guess the question has been answered.?

Strange Darryl, but I had always considerd that you were intelligent enough to understand the fundamental mechanics of sail boat racing..

You say it's not important to have boats at min weight in a "box rule" class, Well then why is it so important for the F18 class to measure each boat and add corretors to bring boats to a min weight? F18 is as much a box rule as F16 is and the min weight rule is enforced with great strictness. Are you saying that these efforts are misguided?

Answer this for me:-

There are two identical Blade F16's rigged on the beach and its the first day of the GC, one boat is on min weight, the other is 7kg overweight.

Which one would you choose to race the event on?

As for crew weight:-

I am sure that as/if F16 matures an optimum crew weight range will emerge, however you need to be careful not to put boat weight and crew weight in the one equation. moveable ballast is markedly different to boat weight.

Macca, after sailing the Taipan F16 and the Viper, I know I would be faster on the Viper than the Taipan F16 in all conditions despite the Viper being 18kgs over minimum weight. I don't think weight alone is the one and end all of good boat design.

Thanks Marcus,

But what is the sample size and the Standard Deviation (for Wouter)

ie is there a list of boats weighed?

From the data supplied it appears that the current fleet is on average 5kg over the min class weight for both Cat and Sloop boats.

So what happens to those early adapters to the class (those that put their money down on a boat when the class was just being talked about) when the new boats come out that are 5kg lighter? Tough luck for them hey?

I assume you have left the Viper out of the figures because it hurts the average?

What happens to the figures when you exclude the heaviest boat (Viper) and the lightest boat (Hans' Blade)

NM post deleted by me <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Andrew I was simply indicating what the current weight average of the latest boats produced & yes excluded the viper as it fits the F16 box rule, but even Greg Goodall looked dissapointed when the scales clocked 137kgs at Zandvoort. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

5kgs is not a huge amount of weight to be concerned about given that some of the interesting performers at Zandvoort were sailing boats that did not even fall into the averages that were presented.

ie// Belgium crew got a bullet in a race where you would have bet on a lighter platform.

The sloop rigged stealth (father & son team) finished 3rd in two of the races, certainly showing the way to the majority of lighter boats.

Excluding Han's boat is not really applicable as his boat was 2kgs overweight.

Tough luck for some - I think the same could be said for the F18 sailors who purchased early hobie, nacra & capricorn F18s until the newer revised designs came out ( not so much for hobie). Sometimes people take a chance knowing that there is allways the latest & greatest gizmo around the corner.

I bet Bill Gates sleeps well at night. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Here we go again... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

The Viper has gained advantages over the other F16's because if the larger volume hulls and stiffer platform but it cost them in weight i.e. it's a trade-off. Get it? This is how formula racing works. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

But with extra $ you can have your Viper and still be on min weight. That's an expensive path to tread.

This post may be provocative and inflammatory: <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> I hope the moderators are asleep. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I always thought that the purpose of a formula class having a minimum weight was so that no boats could race that are lighter than that. There is no restriction on how heavy they can be. Right? So what's the problem?

Here may be the problem: Light weight is better for moving around on the beach, but it is not necessarily better in all conditions on the water.

As somebody has already mentioned, a heavier boat is better in light air and chop. And, of course, a heavier boat may be able to handle bigger wind and sea conditions than a lighter boat.

So, from all these discussions, it sounds to me as though the F16 Class would really like to make the F16 as one-design as possible and, therefore, should have a MAXIMUM platform weight as well as a minimum weight. Close down the box.

If heavier boats became the majority and the lighter boats became the minority, well, the majority might rule when it is blowing 20 knots and it's too much for the lightweights to race.

Do you mean like that Frankenstein T5.7 of yours? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Well yes actually but the price is always going to be a major sales factor (like it is now) but in your case you could do what you like with your money as long as you remain within the box. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Im a newcomer to yor forum and a potential newcomer to your class. SO hears my two cents worth.

I believe the f16 has the potential to be great. I find the thought of sailing a "modern" boat with a kite and my light crew very attractive.

However i dont think that publishing the weights of the current boats will achieve anything constructive. It does appear that most of the builders are having trouble making the class minimum wieght tho. I cant speak for any one in the boat building industry but i would assume that they want to keep the price of the boats at a level that will sell boats.

If any one thinks that the wieght of a sailing boat doesn't matter then they are just kidding themselves. Its comes down to basic physics. Nothing to do with light wind, heavy wind, chop, no chop. A boat that is 1 kg heavier, than the next boat, has to move 1 kg of water more than the next boat over 16 ft of travel. Weight is critical to a sailing boat.

Wieght is also critical to the price of the boats. A sensible minimum wieght is essential for the f16 class to encourage sailors and manufacturers to participate.

Cheers Sue

Sue if you are so worried about 1 kg difference then I would suggest racing sail boats may not be for you, you are going to be so uptight about my boat being 5 kgs lighter than yours that you won't want to compete with me just in case I beat you over the water.

One could almost say your argument is a womans way of thinking as I'm sure that you are going to conveniantly forget that I'm probably 25kgs heavier over all if you take into account my lardy frame.

Get over it people, this is a real world we live in, we ain't ever going to be able to race on a perfectly equal overall weight as it simply will never happen. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Im not worried about 1 kg wayne but i sure would be worried about 5 kgs. The 1 kg was just an example for your physics lesson. Crew weight and boat weight are completely different.

You guys really seem to struggle with the concept of weight. And thats what will weigh the class down if you dont address it.

I would draw your attention to the f16s big brother as Macca already has. I guarantee nearly every competitive f18 will be within 5kgs of minimum weight. The Capricorns are generally lighter and carry corrector weights.

Are you suggesting that the massive worldwide f18 fleet is not living in the real world?

xxx Sue

Sue the real world is that the small builders are down to weight already, the big builders for what ever reason aren't, Macca wants the big boys to be able to come down and play on their terms, now I think that is a retrograde step for the class and probaly unfair on the small builders who have supported the class from day one.

From practical experiance here in the UK which probably has the biggest fleets actively racing against each other over the last 5 or more years, it matters very little about boat weight and crew weight, the rules as they stand allow the best sailor / s to win. Yes some days are going to favour the 2 man crews equally some days will favour the solo crew, but on that great big overall picture the best sailors will win.

You for example having a light 2 man crew have an extreme advantage because you have an extra sail and an extra pair of hands, but so what, I would still go and race with you, and that perhaps is what is so good about the class, its very laid back and friendly, come and enjoy by sailing with us but please don't try and change things, things are pretty good as they are. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

"Are you suggesting that the massive worldwide f18 fleet is not living in the real world?"

I'm suggesting that the F18 is just too heavy for some of us and the 1 or 2 up versatility makes the F16 a preferable platform. I want a light boat. If I were willing to lug around some amount of lead, it would be as well to sail a monohull.

I'm skeptical about the numbers of boats and sailors. If total numbers are dwindling, how can any class be "massive"?

Sue,




How big can the performance difference be between a "257 kg boat+crew" and a "262 kg boat+crew" ?

Especially when the crews themselves can differ by as much a 40 kg !

We argue and know from on the water experience that such a 5 kg difference is all but negligiable.

Besides you can have minimum weight F16 if you want to and it will still be cheaper then a competitive F18; for example upgrading to a carbon mast is enough. Everybody was offered the possibility of a min weight boat but alot of us have chosen to go with an aluminium mast anyway as our sailing skills aren't good enough to fret over a few kg of boat weight difference. In my case I wasn't worried to much 14.8 kg either ! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

That is the argument we're having here.

Wouter

How big can the performance difference be between a "257 kg boat+crew" and a "262 kg boat+crew" ?

Especially when the crews themselves can differ by as much a 40 kg !

We argue and know from on the water experience that such a 5 kg difference is all but negligiable.

That is the argument we're having here.

Wouter [/quote]

I don't understand WHY you guys keep arguing about this. You have a class rule about minimum boat weight. All that means is that the boat cannot weigh LESS than that. It does NOT mean that all the boats in the class have to be at minimum weight. The whole idea of a formula class is for it to be inclusive of as many boats as fit into the specifications. And a 16-foot boat that weighs 1,000 pounds could call itself an F16 if it wants to.

I don't see any basis for arguing with Macca about this. Tell him to buzz off.

He has been told any number of times. He refuses to leave. I'm now ignoring him.

His nonsense affects the uninitiated. It is a disservice to the F16 class and to Catsailor.

But then, so is Curry's taunting.

Gosh Mary, a couple of days ago you were defending his actions, about time even you got peeved with his constant barracking. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hey lets give mr Curry the credit he deserves.

He has never repeated himself endlessly. He taunts, watches the resulting spectacle and then everybody moves on.

I can still see the fun in that. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Wouter

Hey, I still don't see anything wrong with the topic or the debate. All I am saying is that if you F16 guys don't like the subject, just don't take the bait, and don't participate. It takes at least two to argue. Seems pretty simple to me.

Most of you class members have now been listed on the other thread, so I am suggesting that all of you go to Macca's user profile and click on "Ignore this user."

Wouter I don't really follow your constant comparisons with F18's; do you think these are potential F16 sailors that just need to be convinced by your wonderful machines? In the UK I would have thought that Spitfires, Shadows and H16 saiors are the likely target market with Fathers(or mothers) sailing with children or alone. To me that seems a real strong selling point and one that might attract me in the future. Sailing as I do at the moment (me 90kgs, good, regular and reliable crew at 60 ish) then the F18 suits me perfectly and I've certainly not been blown away by an F16 at any UK event. If I was lighter and needed to sail singlehanded regularly then the F16 would certainly be on potential shopping list, probably along with Shadow and FX-1. In terms of weight I don't mind the F18 around the dinghy park, it's a fraction of the time I spend on the water. However I would be concerned over whether or not I could right the boat alone, my F18 I would say not in the light stuff and the same for a Spitfire - for me that would be a compelling reason for the class to control the minimum weight so you do not lose a chunk of your potential market.

Right! So that should end the entire debate right there.

Hear hear. The weight and the cost of the boat needs to be controlled. Carbon masts send the price of the boat way past that of an F18. Weight and price go hand in hand. Most of you have said that yourselves.

xxx Sue

Actually Sue,




I said that the F16's INCLUDING a carbon mast upgrade are still cheaper then competitive F18's.

We have given examples of that many times but most strikingly are the Stealth F16's that come standard with a carbon mast for 9650 GBP = 12.742 Euro's in the race version (= most expensive).

Same applies to VWM Blade F16 imports to EU with a carbon mast upgrade. The Aussie Blade F16 is now under minimum weight with the Alu mast and doesn't require a carbon mast upgrade.

Wouter

This Forum doesn't seem to be that "laid back" or that "friendly". I guess ill just have to keep sailing my crappy production boat at 127 kgs crew weight. At least its the same weight as all the other crappy productions boats of the same class.

Im very disappointed with the classes overall attitude.

xxxooo Sue

Doesn't anyone else smell something fishy around here? I wonder if 'Sue' has been known to sail a certain Taipan 5.7?

Sue is Macca spelled backwards... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

The F18 sounds like the right boat for you. Some of us, however, don't have your crew situation. There's the rub. If you had no crew how would you race?

The F16 is a versatile solution for those of us with crew problems.

Additionally, some lighter weight crews (2 people) find the F18 cumbersome.

The H16 sailors of my acquaitance are either commited to the boat until death <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />, or want an inexpensive boat. Where they are teaching a young person, they don't want the complication of a spinnaker.

What so just because i share similar veiws, i must be the same person. I sail a H16. And I just ran the numbers and i can get a spanking new tiger for cheaper than the stealth the viper and the blade with carbon mast. According to the viper website i cant get a minimum weight one of them.

Look it wasn't my intention to put you guys offside. I just dont wnat to spend a truck load of money on a boat that would be left wanting by a boat that was 20 Kilos lighter. I don't have the time or the inclination to build my own. So unfortunatly i would have to rely on one of the Big Bad manufacturers to supply me with a boat.

From what ive seen the class would rather keep the major manufacturers out to suit a few homebuilders. Therefore majorly limiting the growth of the class.

Sue

Agree absolutely but that's my point - The F16 and F18 really appeal to different markets (imo) which is why I don't really follow the shots at the F18. As I said, if I had no regular crew (or one of the two padwans takes an interest in a few years time) than the F16 would certainly be on the horizon; which is probably why I'm taking an interest now.
And to answer Mark's question on a now locked thread; for me the class would NOT have to have Hobie or NACRA on board BUT, if the F104 class became a big player then that might influence a potential choice. That said I think the F16's I've seen around the UK look good, are sailed by enthusiastic and sociable sailors so I'd like to see the class evolve.

Sue, if that's your real name, I wouldn't describe a H16 as a 'crappy production boat' well, not unless you were referring to the quality? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> H16s are BRILLIANT boats! They are simple, fast(ish) and sooooo much fun to sail! I can't think of a time when I haven't enjoyed a sail on a H16. Honest truth!

However, to use a H16 as an example of boats being equal within a class is a classic mistake. Show me five H16s and I'll show you 5 different weights with a range of 5Kg plus between them. Hell, I knew of a newish (2001) H16 that had one hull almost 2Kg heavier than the other! and it was like that from new.

Getting so wound up on weight is just not sensible. F16 is a boxrule class, the boats are not identical, that's the point! We set max and min dimensions as appropriate, if your boat fits into the box and is above minimum weight you can race as F16. An optimised F16 should be built to the maximum and minimum tolerances but in practice that is difficult to achieve and that is how it should be. Having said that, the latest -2007 onward- VWM, Stealth and FCA boats are within a couple of kilos of or even slightly below minimum and require corrector weights. If you want to get right down to minimum weight with a design(since that is your fixation) you may well have to sacrifice some hull volume as that equals less laminate area but that will affect your performance in some conditions. You wouldn't sacrifice layup or strength as that would be completely pointless. You could save a few kilos in a careful choice of rudder stocks etc. You could decide not to take that 2 litre bottle of water with you when you go out, don't fit a compass etc. etc. A big saving would be a carbon mast - around £800 complete here in the UK. (That's about £200 more expensive than an aluminium one) A relatively cheap upgrade when you look at what the As spend on weight saving.

The point is it's a 'run what you brung' class. No, the boats aren't equal in all conditions (that would be a different type of class, it's called One Design) but without doubt, proved time and time again, the biggest difference between the boats is the people on board. In my 40ish tears of competitive sailing I've sailed many, many different types of catamarans (and dinghies) but I haven't ever had as much (consistent) fun as I've had with my F16. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Oh. BTW I don't know where on earth ANYONE got the impression that the F16 rules were open to discussion or change by a straw poll on an open forum. There is a due process for proposing a change to rules and it has to be well constructed and logical in it's reasoning with sound facts and research to back it up. Not unreasonably, the members then get the opportunity to vote either for or against the proposal - it's called DEMOCRACY.

"The Class" couldn't care less if the Big Boys get involved or not. There is a minimum boat weight. Most of us have no idea what our boats weigh because it is nearly impossible to weigh them correctly at home, and there are very few reliable scales available at regattas. I can honestly say I have NEVER seen a scale at any regatta, that includes the Alter Cup.

So here's the deal with the F16 class and boat weights. You either want a light, fast, 16 foot boat with the ability to race Uni or 2 up, with a spinnaker, or you don't. There are other classes available to you, go there.

If you think being at min. wt. is a big deal, pay your money and get as much carbon on board as you can, and keep weighing your boat, and you will have no problem getting to min. wt.

There was a guy who Pimped his F18HT back a few years ago, maxed it out per the rules, rumor is he spent about $50,000 doing it. And it killed the class as nobody else wanted to spend that kind of money to play catch up. Is that what you want?

I'm happy to sail a stock factory boat and trust the builder has done a good job trying to keep them all even and at or near min. wt.

Now this is getting entertaining... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Adrian, I didn't take Wouter's comments as a shot at the F18 - in fact he has always been very complimentary towards the 18 as a class, weight notwithstanding. I think his point was just that the cost of an F18 is an important point of comparison when evaluating some of the misinformation that gets thrown around about a supposed imminent arms race in the F16.

Fair enough Mark, my comment was slightly based on a post that Wouter subsequently deleted but also that to my mind the two classes are very different and don't really bare comparison. As and aside my Capricorn was less than 6 months old and cost less than a brand new F16 would have when I bought it.

In the UK a more realistic comparison is probably the Spitfire (16ft long, almost f16ish) and costs just under £9k but weighing 140kg. Interestingly its little sister, the Shadow weighs in at 95kgs is made of kevlar but costs almost as much at £500 less. Neither of which offer (imo) the vesatility of the F16 but do perhaps highlight some of the cost considerations in building light boats.

It may be just coincidence, but here in the Southeastern U.S. interest in the F18 seems to have fallen off as the F16 picked-up.

Hi all,

If we want to come out to the world as a professional racing class I DO think that meeting the minimum weight is important for manufacturers.
I personally do think that 5kg can make a difference, certainly on a higher level. I don't think 1 Tornade is 1kg overweight on the Olympics, nor are F18 on their worlds...
If we say that 5 kg aren't that important, why hold on to the weight to badly?

I don't want to shake things up and I do think discussing weight should be done after proper examination (discussion with none F16 manufacturers and F16 manufacturers, top sailors, ...) and with a smaller group of people.

Gill

Personally, I don't want to be part of a "proffesional racing class" ala Tornados or even A cats and some of the F18 Pro's. It gets much too expensive as everyone chases the illusive -ultimate boat-, ultimate sails, minimum wt, carbon everyting, etc.

I would prefer it remain an amature class, with people who race for fun, not for career advancement or, God forbid, Money! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

I second that.

Aye!

This is for the other forum readers, just to provide (counter)evidence the claims :

http://www.proust-sailing.com/hobie-hobie-polyester-55/

Scroll down to bottom and find :

Hobie cat Tiger STX : 15.613 Euro's
Hobie FX-one extreme : 16.162 Euro's


Everybody can find Stealth F16 pricing here (still current) : www.stealthmarine.co.uk :

9650 GBP = 12.750 Euro's (incl. carbon mast)

Blade F16 prices are around 14.250 Euro's with Alu mast resulting in 1363 Euro difference that allows them to upgrade to a carbon mast and still be the below the quoted Tiger (basic setup) in cost. If My notes are correct then upgrading them with a Stealthmarine carbon mast will even have them under 15.000 Euro's; but you would have to do that upgrade yourself. See John Alani's comments about the Stealth carbon mast earlier in this thread.

Wouter

Spot on Mark !

That is exactly the reasons for my "F18" referals !

Wouter

Hey Timbo,

The best part of your example ... :




... is that during the first big race against other, more conventional, 18HT's HE LOST !

$50,000 in upgrades for a result that he could also have had with a plain $16.000 stock boat.

Wouter

It was a beautiful boat, though. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Let me paraphrase that : you could buy a SECOND HAND Capricorn F18 for less then a BRAND NEW F16 !

And you think this says something because .... ?

Wouter

Ohh yeah !

Somebody with a carbon fetish would have an instantanious heart attack or an unsuppressable need to mate with it. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Wouter

Gilo,

You can get a min weight F16 and anyone always could. But even youself decided against the carbon mast option for other reasons. The carbon mast upgrade maybe be more expensive but it isn't expensive in absolute terms compared to the prices paid for competitive aluminium masted F18's. See my earlier posting in this thread for price data.

Therefor the builders can provide everybody with a min weight boat; it is the choice of every F16 owner whether they want to pay for that or not. Alot of us made the personal choice to not do that; alot of others (mostly Stealth owners) did.

This is exactly the same as the Tornado class is now, every owner can still race with aluminium, several still do, just not the top 50 crews. For them the carbon upgrade is peanuts in cost compared to their other costs like travelling.

F16 is no different in this respect.

Wouter

Rolf, I think we need you in here to delete posts and lock this topic!!

It has clearly gone off the original tightly defined rules you set.... Oh hang on its a forum and the discussion hs evolved <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I leave my PC for 18 hours and look what happens!!

So many great comments to get stuck into <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

So if 5kg difference is all but negligible to performance why not raise the min weight by 5kg so that you now have te min weight set to the average of the current fleet thereby ensuring the racing is just a little bit more even and the boats are possibly just a little bit cheaper.

Seems that everyone wins hey?

The RETAIL price for your examples is less than a RETAIL price for a F18.

the PRODUCTION cost for an F16 with carbon mast and to class min weight is MORE than the production cost of an F18.

Do you think that just because you have 2ft shorter hulls its going to be a whole lot cheaper to build?

The components on an optimised F16 are much more expensive to produce. Carbon mast, rudder boxes, beams (even alloy would be the same cost as F18), same number of blocks and ropes etc. So how exactly will an F16 be cheaper to produce than an F18?? Where are the savings? all I see are more expensive components and more time to produce the hulls with more expensive materials.

And what a wonderful 18 hours it was!

I hope that all the class members who frequent this forum have taken my advice and put you on "ignore" so they cannot even see your posts.

You are free to pontificate all you want and discuss things with yourself.

That's what free speech is about -- you are free to speak, and we are free to not listen.

For the record: I do not know Sue, have had no contact with her and have no idea who she is or where she comes from.

You Muppets have just shot down a potential class member wih your paranoia and crappy attitude to people with different points of view. Well done.

Tim, That example above is what can happen in F16 right now!!!!

The class rules are so loose that someone can build the super pimped boat and if they point it in the right direction on the race course you wont see which way they went...Maybe the class could survive that but it would forever change it. You would have to either ban the super boat (for meeting the rules??) or you would all have to build super boats (not cheap) or just get used to having your butt kicked everytime someone turned up with a super F16...

I don't have a chicken in this ring, but I feel the need to point out that the assertion that Peter's $50k 18HT killed the class is not correct. There were other, much larger issues going on at the time that had nothing to do with the class rules.

John, Want to buy a Chicken?

Very true, but let's let those dogs sleep right now.

Wouter made a funny. Ok I laughed. I always thought it would be neat to build an all carbon H16. Spars, tramp frame, hulls, blades, etc. That would be fun just to have. I would need a winning lottery ticket first.

O come on Mary let's let them start talking about how the 18HT class died. Please
This F16 forum is way more exciting than the F18 forum. We just talk about boat tuning and up coming events.

Maybe we should send Macca over to your forum to spice things up. Like maybe the minimum weight for the F18's should be reduced enough so the F16's can be part of the F18 class. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Ok, time to throw in my chicken.
All these arguments are because Macca wants the min. weight raised so the "big manufacturers" as we call them, can build a heavier boat than anyone else can, at the same price. Hmm. If we raise the min. weight, their boats can be competitive.
Of course, as he says you could get AHPC to build an all-carbon Viper and shed 30kg, to make it 107kg, at a gazillion times the price of a Blade / Stealth etc, and it will be a whole 3 or 5kg lighter than the Blade. Hmmm.
Sounds like we have a whole lot to be worried about. (Note : I have been told I have an overly-enthusiastic sarcasm gland.)
The very sad thing is that through all the responses he is getting, he will collect some F16 owners who are like-minded, and will stop at nothing to acchieve his goal - he has proven this beyond a doubt with his persistence.
One has to ask what his objectives are and why so persistent - in one of the threads he was linked to being a pro sailor with an affiliation to a manufacturer. I`d stop guessing his motives right about when that was disclosed.

Now for my last comment - Why do we need the "big manufacturers" for support, when we have the new, innovative builders, some small, some not so small (think Vectorworks), who are willing to build to the rules, understanding the fine line between weight, strength, stiffness of platform, cost of manufacture, and reasonable profit margins. They might not hit all the targets on the bullseye, but they get very close in all respects, and produce a hard-to-beat package, which is why the "big manufacturers" are crying - they can`t compete and it`s starting to hurt.
Perhaps the "small manufacturers" are the big manufacturers of the future. Perhaps the catamaran sailing scene worldwide no longer needs (or can sustain)big manufacturers with big profit margins.
Perhaps the reason the big manufacturers have to have big profit margins is so they can pay big names to sail their boats, in the hope of selling more boats to the average joe (us.) Perhaps the Pro sailors are getting nervous...(see previous note on sarcasm.)

Mary are you and Rick coming to Spring Fever? If so maybe you can check the scales when we weigh some of those F16's. We need someone that is impartial <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I am not going to get into this debate again as you already know my views and we could not have another sailor agree with Macca..... However the above comment is a bit rich. Guess sailing is not for all the rock stars as they care about an extra kg or 5 on their boats.

18HT death.... lets do it. It didn't have much to do with some dude spending 50k spicing one up though.

You know that some companies that make F18s have to overbuild them ON PURPOSE to get up to weight? I find that silly.

I think I have some money to throw around. What could I get if I had Matt make me a one off all carbon boat with canted hulls, foil rudders, carbon mast, carbon beams, wing sail? hmmm.... what else could I get? In the end I would have to add weight. And, some dude who knew how to sail better would still beat me. Even if I did all of that and ended up with a 50k boat, according to the rules AS THEY ARE NOW, I do NOT think I could buy myself wins.
And my 2c- 4-10kg means NOTHING when you look at the variability in crew weights.

Hi Stephen,
I`m no rock star, but just curious as to how much performance there really is in 5kg. As a percentage of the overall boat weight, it represents 4,67% of the boat weight, does this make it 4,67% faster ? If it did, all the top sailors would drill holes all over the decks of their boats, and make sure they don`t capsize.
If you take the F16 specs and punch them into the ISAF rating calculator, you might find a 1% gain (tell me if it`s more, I am a bored insomniac, but not THAT bored.) If I`m right, that`s a 36 second advantage in a 1hour race. Now at weekend-warrior levels it MIGHT get noticed, but if your opposition can sail half a degree higher than you can on a 5kg heavier boat, I`d guess it would be a fair fight.
My guess is having all the boats at min. weight with correctors would attract all the rock stars and the big manufacturers, a sure way to kill a class if ever I`ve seen one.

Oh yeah, wanted to add my boat data to the thread that Rolf locked :
My boat weighed in at 99kg sloop without spinnaker. Rough guess 105kg with kite, it hasn`t been weighed with one. My mainsail and jib are a very heavy cloth to withstand Cape Town weather, we don`t replace sails too often. I`ve weighed mainsail, jib & boom at 20kg, could lose 8kg easily. (boom is a alu. dinghy mast section, at least 5kg.) Of course I have 12,5sqm main on a 7,3m mast, is my boat F16 compliant, yes if I carry 2kg of lead. It won`t "rate" as fast as full F16, but will still win on line in over 25knots against a lot of "faster" designs with taller mainsails and bigger kites. Unless the sailors on the more powerful boat are a LOT better than I am.
The Mozzie with kite costs around 6000 Euro (new) and is only 10% slower (on paper) than a full F16.

As a separate issue, I didn`t know the Spitfire was "un-grandfathered" It`s an interesting issue, as it weighs a LOT more than min. F16 weight (135kg I think), but has a slightly bigger jib & spinnaker, the only differences if I`m correct, and it`s ISAF rating is so similar to F16 that it was initially included. I raise this because it`s a valid argument that a well-designed boat over the min. weight can be fast enough to be rated at a similar enough ISAF rating to allow it to compete with F16`s on the water in real terms, which is what F16 is all about, not "how heavy is your tiller extension" I don`t know much about the Viper, but if it`s similarly designd with respect to hull volume to the Spitfire, it might just surprise a lot of people.

Actually, I can't think of anybody more impartial than I am. But you need a class officer or somebody the class designates to do that.

I don't know if you have seen the scales the F18 class uses, but we saw it in action a couple years ago, and it is pretty high-tech -- sure beats the double set of bathroom scales that have been used at other events I have been at. It would be worth it to take advantage of those scales if you are going to be at that regatta.

It's a lot easier (and more accurate) than going to a truck scale and weighing your trailer with the boat on and with the boat off and figuring out the difference. PLUS, there would be witnesses when you do it at Spring Fever. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

P.S. I LOVE that campground at Spring Fever.

Mary,

I have had the F18 class scales in my garage for a couple of years. They are really high tech compared to the bath room scale. The wife likes it when before a regatta I say lets see what we weigh and we get on the Class scales. I think it cost 7.00 to non class members to get there boats weighed. I hope it is warmer this year.

I would think EVERYBODY would want their boats weighed, just out of curiosity. It never occurred to me that you guys would make your scales available to do that. It also sounds like a good way to make some extra money for your class. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

If I were you, I would make it a flat $10 for the weighing, because it makes it a whole lot easier to make change.

Wow!! you guys are out of control. This certainly is an entertaining forum.

I dont apprieciate being miss quoted Wouter. How are you supposed to have any credibility when you cant get that right. You know what im talking about. I assure you that Carbon masts are one expensive item where im from. They are cool tho. But is that what you guys want? Cause thats where it will end up.

I look at the limited pictures available of the viper and i like what i see. The only way that i would be interested in getting into the class is if i could buy a boat from a reputable builder like AHPC, hobie, nacra, cirrus...and know that my boat isn't going to be made obselete by the next super boat that cost twice the price.

Until last night i thought that the spitfire was a F16. Its a damn shame that its not cause it looks like a very cool little boat with some cool people behind it.

Sue

You are not interested in getting into the class.

Mary- you should be able to look up the IP address for any of the forum users. That would out anybody who is trying to be their own devils advocate. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Do you seriously think that i would be reading your forum if i wasn't???? Give me a break.

Its obvious that you guys are not open to change or newcomers. You'll just have to get used to sailing "worlds" with the same 10 boats or less.

I have already done that.

My Blade will be going on the scales at Spring Fever. I am curious what the very first VWM Blade weighs.

Cheers,
Neville

Sue,
We have a set of Class Rules for the F16.
If they suit you then you are welcome.
If they do not suit you I would respectfully suggest that you look elsewhere.

Regards,
Phill

Right. And you know a worlds would not happen with 10 boats and it would not happen unless the class already was eligible for recognized or international status.

So give it up.

There is two reason why I read the F16 forum, and its not because I have an F16, or am really interested at this point in getting one.

1. as of late it has been entertaining as hell.
2. You think the F16 is a small class? My class of boat is barely sailed. Right now we're hardly a blip on the radar screen. The successes of the F16 class have given me insight to things that I think could be applied to my boat/class. Things that will make it more appealing with just some simple rule changes that don't actually change anything about the boat.

You are incorrect with that assumption.

I suggest you read the rules.

A mast weight must be attained by suspending the tip on a horozontal plane. You could build a mast with carbon but you would be throwing your money away because you would have to overbuild or add weight to the mast for it to be legal.

Also, the F16 is intended to be a modern performance cat. Someone that sails a dated boat will have a very difficult time being competitive because of the many improvements.

This is the same as trying to make a Hobie 18 fit within the F18 class. Yes, it can be done on a budget but your boat will not compete with the modern boats. You also do not see the F18 class changing the rules to make older designs competitive with the modern boats.

We are what we are and you should embrace it because of the performance.

The price of a new F16 is very reasonable and 1/2 the cost of a new A Class.

Neville, your boat is not the very first built boat. There was another blade built before yours. It was the prototype, blade 703 I believe, currently owned and sailed by Tback (forum name) In any case yours is the first "production" built blade. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Interesting comments
1) "Carbon masts are one expensive item where im from." I find it very interesting that John, the builder of the Stealth, removes some of the mystique involved with carbon and offers them at a very modest upcharge, unlike other manufacturers.

2) "if i could buy a boat from a reputable builder" And this implies the current F16 builders are un-reputable?

Regarding having boats at minimum weight. My observations are that in the upper 5% of ANY class advantages are gained by whatever means possible and perception plays a big part of that advantage over competitors. Some believe (or have convinced themselves) small percentage differences may encumber their chance of consistently winning and they'll play every possible option out, to the hilt, so to leave no doubt in their competitors mind.

Actually, I think you need to read the rules.... The tip weight as it currently stands is unachievable with an alloy mast so there is a clear weight advantage with a carbon mast. Oh, there is the small advantage of a stiffer mast with carbon... but I won't get too technical here.



A new A class is built to take advantage of the class rules, hence the cost. NO current F16 is built to take advantage of the rules. If somebody actually did it the boat would cost as much as an A class.

F16 needs to answer a fundamental question:-

Do you want to be like an A class with kites? The current rules are written to allow exactly that. Sure costs are good now but the rules allow a lot more than what is currently being offered to the market.

Somebody mentioned that some builders have to add weight to F18's to get them up to weight. Thats correct. And I dont think you wil find a current F18 manufacturer or sailor that wishes the weight was less (Say 160kg). It would be cheaper to build them (very slightly) and the boats would be easier to handle on shore. But the class is so big now that to make the change would destroy the fantastic success it is enjoying.

What I am saying is that F16 has the chance now to make changes that will ensure it has a bright future.

Andrew,

You have made your point.

You are free to move on.

Regards,
Phill

Andrew? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> but I thought his name was Sue. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Free to stay too.

while we are both here, maybe you can answer a question:-

As a designer, do you believe that carrying 5kg extra weight has any negative effect of the performance of an F16?

This has been done to death.
Move on.

i'll take that as a YES then?

Macca,

This has been done to death.
Move on.

Ok, I will leave you guys with this:

A Version 5 AC boat weighs 24,000kg and they would not entertain the thought of a boat thats 5kg over weight. (what is that as a percentage??)

How exactly you know better than the best scientists, designers and sailors in the world is beyond me but you all seem pretty convinced.

Good luck with it, I look forward to the messy debate when someone builds a boat to the current rule and decimates the existing fleet. If anyone could be bothered <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Andrew,
I'm beginning to get the impression that you don't like the F16 Class Rules. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
This is all getting very old.
You don't live that far away.
Happy to sit down over a beer and discuss this anytime.

Regards,
Phill

Andrew - PB like scotch.... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Phill, your on:)

name the time and place.

Me like beer (simple man)

Ok,
I work all weekend and early in the week but
later in the week I think I have a couple of days off.

I'll give you a ring around Tuesday or Wednesday.

The leagues club is nearby. You could even walk home.

Midday - High Noon <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Dermot - how heavy is your gun...... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

139kg <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> I'll get my coat <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Hi Steve,

With regards to your question about extra weight only, an extra 5 kg means an extra 5kg your boat must displace (move an extra 5 ltrs of water.

Where this is the most noticable is downwind in light through to heavy conditions. The lighter the weight the deeper you can send it down wind = better VMG. That is why in the most competitve fleets you see the good sailors trying to keep their boat weight to the absolute min with crew weight also to the min or to the optimum weight (not weight range). It does make a BIG difference on the race course, trust me. Of late I have raced the F18 with crew weights between 184 kg to 135 kg in amoungst quality fleets, but mostly around the 150 to 160.

TornadoAlive,

Maybe you should join Phill and Macca for that glass of beer ?

Then you can check out Phill "under minimum weight Aussie Blade F16 that can't be build" at the same time !

Wouter

Relax Wouter,

Plan to catch up with Phil.

Wouter, for your own benifit, spend some more time in the real racing world, not the internet one.

Humm, I'm an (maritime) engineer nothing more nothing less, so what did you do last weekend ?


http://www.xs4all.nl/~whijink/landyachting/Landyacht_class_5_sat_23_feb_2008_on_board_run_2.avi

Beware ; 37 Mb download




http://www.catsailor.com/forums/sho...er=135020&Main=134839#Post135020


Ohh YEAH !

Wouter

LOL..... Very quick edit on your post Wouter. I am an overcocky racer hey. I can live with that <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Perhaps you should have described yourself as an overcocky engineer whome is never wrong <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

FYI, The last 2 weeks, Sail Auckland and Tornado Worlds.

"Sue"

I like your spunk. From your flawless grammar and spelling I guess you are not American, European or under 30. Females tend to have a higher level of english expression. From this I deduce that you are Antipodean, tertiary educated and female, aged between 30 and 35, weighing 55 +/- 5kg and living in Sydney. Am I close?

Phil

Cool, CSI comes to the F16 forum <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Actually that part was refering to another person and I didn't feel it was right to included that in a reply to you, hence I removed it.

I think you can describe me as a **** engineer or something like that, that is fair. Yet I don't tell you guys how to sail your boats as I know you are better then me in that. Of course this respect is not reciprocated on technical matters. The typical "busdrivers think they know better then their engineers" syndrome.

With respect Sail Auckland and Tornado Worlds, good on you mate but you have missed the point; I've never adviced YOU to get out more in the real world.

Wouter

You spend a lot of time telling people how to sail their boats actually. The type of respect you seem to crave has to be earned, from your behaviour on this forum it would not be possible for you, Wouter, to earn my respect.

Darryn
Mozzy
1782

I could solve world hunger and still not earn any praise from you guys.


Wouter

my boat is underweight.

Perhaps Wouter could feed it. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> Sorry, could not resist.... Carry on.

Man this is bcoming Australia v Wout looking at the posters on the thread, Wout must have really pissed those guys badly over on the Tiapan forum

I know what to do, chuck a couple of New Zealanders in on Wouts side and that should even things up. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Aussies and Kiwis stick together when dealing with a common enemy...

Don't forget where "New Zealand" comes from. We owe everything to Dutch maritime engineering and seamanship! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

If you are referring to the Dutch explorer Abel Tasman, then you need to look at his voyages. He found Tasmania, New Zealand, Tonga and Fiji on his first expedition before going back to Batavia (now Jakarta). On his second attempt, mapped bits of the North End of Australia, but completed missed Torres Strait and the whole East Coast of Australia. The Dutch East Indies really didn't pursue any of his discoveries as he found nothing worthwhile...

I was only briefly a member of the Taipan forum, 2 weeks in total. I was banned from their forum for suggesting that in the future the Taipan would be sailed competitively with a spinnaker, guess I was wrong <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />. Worked out well for me being banned as instead of a Taipan I purchased my third Mozzy and recently moved on to my fourth, wouldn't even consider a Taipan these days.

While I was a member I never saw a post from Wouter.

Darryn
Mozzy
1782

But not like waves <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Me like waves on cat or trimaran, not on lead mine... unless its on a 100ft canting keel weapon.

I wasn't banned from that forum but it was made pretty clear to me that I needed to bugger off and weep in shame of having the misquided believe that I, as a non Aussie sailor, could propose officially sanction fitting a spinnaker to the Taipans to grow the class internationally. At one time I also proposed updating the mainsail and jib design.

Eventually I was adviced to ^$@#&-off and start my own boat class if I wanted spinnakers on the Taipan so badly. Best advice I was ever given. Together with Kirt Simmons and Phill Brander I worked out a new concept based on these ideas and ...

All the rest is history as they say.

Wouter

And I thank you for all your long hours and hard work Wouter. Without your efforts, who would Macca have to poke at? He might have to get his own class to raise it's min. wt! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

I must really say here that I could not have done it without co-founder Phill Brander. He provided the all important components (like Blade F16 design) that I could leverage in a broader sense to create the F16 class. I'm indebted to him and you will always see either of us refer to the other when discussing the F16 class success. I had the flashy job (with the personal hatred that comes with it) he had the background job (with the undeserved low profile that comes with that).

So I would move to correct "... without your efforts ..." to "... without our efforts ..."

But I understand the intent expressed in your post, Tim, and thank you for that.

Wouter

Yes, and to Phil! And Matt as well, because absent his efforts to build the Blades over here, I wouldn't be on one. I nearly bought a Taipan 4.9 when they first came over here but they were sooo expensive. Nice boats, no doubt, but beyond my budget at that time. Matt is producing an excellent product and without him I would be on a...? I don't know. Can't afford a new A cat, maybe a used one?

Anyway, thanks to all of you who created the class and the boats.

If we are havinga back slapping fest, we also need to say a thanks to JohnP. His stealth is the backbone of the fleet in the UK.

Yea Wout, Haven't you forgotten about John. The other Co Founder!!! or is your selective memory kicking in again <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Mark,

John was not a co-founder, sorry.

We actually contacted John, inviting him to be part of the newly formed F16 class and as such he was part of the earlier group of class members. I think that was done on a suggestion by Peter Cogan (USA) at the time, who we had attracted to the class through this public forum.

The class was founded in the last week of May and early weeks of June 2001. We completed the first F16 ruleset in july 2001 about the same time as the forum went online and I think we contacted John late summer 2001 as in august/september.

But there is more then enough honour in being the first F16 builder.

I guess we'll have to file the "selective memory ... again" quote under Welsh Humour again ?

Wouter

Folks,
These back slapping exercises can be a mine field.
One I'd rather not walk through however-
The fact is JohnP backed the concept of the class.

The first builder to build a fully optimised boat to the rules demostrated that he was not only committed to the concept but he was prepared to take the risk neccessary to demonstrate that committment.

This should not be forgotten.

This takes nothing away from Matt's committment to the class in the US.....
Each builder that enters the class in the spirit of the rules deserves our support and respect.

Wouter
I think you'll find that John was posting comments regarding the formulation and finalisation of Class rules in July 01. So to say he wasn't even contacted until August or September can't be true!!
You can file this one with the rest of your gaffs!!

people have forgotten Kirt Simmons - I thought he put in some hard yards as well.?

Or is this really a case of ego's being stroked. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

I would suggest we abstain from backslapping.. Its easy to forget someone or minimize their impact..

This is breaking out into a lovefest. What happened to all the bickering and discussion of boat weights? Rolf, can you get this thread back on topic!!!

Whatever Mark,

I'm not claiming perfect temporal memory here, but I am claiming I was "there at the time" and that the "Peter Cogan route" is correct. There were only three founding members : Phill Brander, Kirt Simmons and myself.

I know because I personally formed this group together with the other two. John was indeed a quick addition as I said earlier myself but he did come later.

If you will we can call him part of the "founding group" denoting everybody that became involved in the first few months after the decision to form this F16 class. That group will indeed encompass something like 20-30 people.

Would that make everybody happy ?

Wouter

Hey everybody !

I ONLY wrote : "I must really say here that I could not have done it without co-founder Phill Brander."

Meaning exactly that.

Can't be liberally translated into :"I enjoyed pissing on Kirt Simmons" or whatever to that effect in relation to any other person living or dead.

Geeeezzz !

Wouter

How did we get from a positive "let the light shine on XXX also" to here.. Just a rethorical question, but interesting and food for thought for us all.

Rolf,
I think it is because there is no one, two, three or four people that deserve more praise than anyone else working at growing the class.

We have a lot of great people working very hard and to praise a few is just not fair to the others.

Lets find a way out of this mine field and get back to work at growing the class.

Can you answer a question for me. The hull work is looking good but after you sent that pic to me of what it's like outside I have been wondering how are you going at curing resin in the cold with all that snow around? It must be cold.
What temp are you getting up to for the resin?
Did you get a resin designed to cure in cold temps?
If you can bring the resin up to a reasonable temp the viscosity changes and you can use less because it goes on thinner. Just have shorter gel time.
Well............

I had more the downward slide from loading praise to confrontations in mind. Trying to understand the mechanism leading into the spiral. Once it is started, it is too late anyway.

Our working space.. We are going seriously off-topic, but OK.
Outside temperatures vary from -5 to +10 degrees, but the garage typically see from +15 to +20 degrees. I have 800watt of directional lighting spread out 50-80cm over the mould. This keeps the temperature on the mould pretty even. We have to take care as the wood can twist and move if it is dried out after we put the glass on.. The lights are enough to heat the garage pretty well.
The epoxy is stored in a heat box. I dont have a thermometer in there, but it is just a box with enough room for 10Kgs of epoxy and hardener. The heat sources is a 60watt lightbulb.
The epoxy is a standard formulation with regular hardener. System works well enough. No problem with excessive amine blush or the epoxy not kicking in. With some tought, working in a cold environment with epoxy is no problem. Sanding on the other hand <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Well, we are off topic, but I have learned the hard way not to work with epoxy under +20 deg Celcius.
There are a lot of small problems occurring, but maybe we leave this to another topic.