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Midwinters update

Posted By: PTP

Midwinters update - 03/09/08 01:46 AM

Great wind today, NW gusty though and shifty (does that make it great? dunno). Poor start on race one... Tshan and Tback didn't make it to the line in time so it was me, running 2-up with my friend captcardiac. I was driving. Apparently kept up with some 17Rs upwind and felt like I was gaining on them a lot downwind... that is until we got caught in the dead spot in the middle of the course. We rounded A and 2 boats in front of us managed to forget all about that little mark that is commonly known as the "offset" mark which isn't optional I heard <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Hit A mark once when we didn't communicate very well and my crew thought I had the mainsheet when I told him to come in off the wire. no biggy. We didn't finish all that well in race 1 despite us being able to hang with the 17s. Did not notice the F18s really because we were dealing with pretty good puffs and managing to sail into all the dead spots.
Race 2.. ahd a great start, hit the pin end with speed right at the gun. Smoking upwind and heard a pop which was something breaking which required us to forget the rest of the regatta. Had to help my friend with his boat.... I will fill you guys in on that later.
Great day though and I consider it a success for my first race. If you get enough weight in the back of the boat you can KILL other boats downwind.
A lot fo boats didn't make it to the start line on race one.. which brings up the question- if half the boats don't make it to the start on time, should you still start the race?
Posted By: John Williams

Re: Midwinters update - 03/09/08 03:12 AM

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which brings up the question- if half the boats don't make it to the start on time, should you still start the race?


If the RC posted a start time, not only are they not obligated to wait for stragglers or foot-draggers, they actually could be protested by those who were diligent and on-time. If it is the PRO I think it is, there is also a strong tendancy to leave little doubt who is in charge on the water. This event has seen unruly fleets before that resulted in ugly protests - especially if the PRO (yours truly, in the cited case) shows any leniency whatsoever.

I'm reading a good book right now by Buddy Melges. There's a section on "Knowing Your RC."
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Midwinters update - 03/09/08 03:18 AM

So what was the pop, was it Curry hitting the sound barrier? Or was it one of the F16 rudders snapping, or your hull breaking off. Try some honest reporting and may be you guys will gain some respect.
Posted By: PTP

Re: Midwinters update - 03/09/08 03:41 AM

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So what was the pop, was it Curry hitting the sound barrier? Or was it one of the F16 rudders snapping, or your hull breaking off. Try some honest reporting and may be you guys will gain some respect.


Where did that come from? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: PTP

Re: Midwinters update - 03/09/08 03:43 AM

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which brings up the question- if half the boats don't make it to the start on time, should you still start the race?


If the RC posted a start time, not only are they not obligated to wait for stragglers or foot-draggers, they actually could be protested by those who were diligent and on-time. If it is the PRO I think it is, there is also a strong tendancy to leave little doubt who is in charge on the water. This event has seen unruly fleets before that resulted in ugly protests - especially if the PRO (yours truly, in the cited case) shows any leniency whatsoever.

I'm reading a good book right now by Buddy Melges. There's a section on "Knowing Your RC."


I think I agree with you... although I don't think I would have the balls to protest the RC for not starting the race on time.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Midwinters update - 03/09/08 03:43 AM

reports from the beach, how bout your version????
Posted By: PTP

Re: Midwinters update - 03/09/08 03:56 AM

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reports from the beach, how bout your version????


?
I may have overstated the "smoked them downwind." I will edit and change that so trolls don't get pissed.
Aside from that.. would you care to just tell me what has pissed you off so much so i can stop guessing?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Midwinters update - 03/09/08 04:01 AM

Overstated, like King Kong was a little monkey? Not pissed at all just would like to hear some real fact's. So what was the pop? And where did you run off to?
Posted By: PTP

Re: Midwinters update - 03/09/08 04:02 AM

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So what was the pop, was it Curry hitting the sound barrier? Or was it one of the F16 rudders snapping, or your hull breaking off. Try some honest reporting and may be you guys will gain some respect.


reread my post... is that better? Just want to make sure you are happy because that is what I strive for- on the F16 forum. Since you don't think much of us, why are you reading the F16 forum anyway? I didn't post this on the main forum because of stupid responses like yours.
Posted By: PTP

Re: Midwinters update - 03/09/08 04:04 AM

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Overstated, like King Kong was a little monkey? Not pissed at all just would like to hear some real fact's. So what was the pop? And where did you run off to?

Were you there?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Midwinters update - 03/09/08 04:05 AM

Took you a while I see you had to go and run my user rating from 5 stars down to 2 . Grow a sack and post on the open forum.
Posted By: PTP

Re: Midwinters update - 03/09/08 04:08 AM

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Took you a while I see you had to go and run my user rating from 5 stars down to 2 . Grow a sack and post on the open forum.

I didn't touch your stars.... and, as I posted on the main forum, stars don't mean squat. You've got issues...
Were you at the race?
Posted By: PTP

Re: Midwinters update - 03/09/08 04:10 AM

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Took you a while I see you had to go and run my user rating from 5 stars down to 2 . Grow a sack and post on the open forum.

o.k... so now I messed with your stars. feel free to do the same to me. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Midwinters update - 03/09/08 04:14 AM

still what was the problem with your boat let's get back on track and stop sniping around it. I do not care about this just killin some time dude, you guy,s should have your t shiry logo be "I have an F16 and my Dell is faster than yours"
Posted By: PTP

Re: Midwinters update - 03/09/08 04:19 AM

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still what was the problem with your boat let's get back on track and stop sniping around it. I do not care about this just killin some time dude, you guy,s should have your t shiry logo be "I have an F16 and my Dell is faster than yours"


Good one... I'll mention that to Robi.
Posted By: tshan

Re: Midwinters update - 03/09/08 05:20 AM

We were in the mix with everyone except the LAYLINE F18,they kicked our butts.

Close racing all around, but it was fun. I'll post more details later.

Posted By: Wouter

Re: Midwinters update - 03/09/08 10:08 AM

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... that may not have met F17 OD specs ...



Problem here is that nobody really knows anymore what the OD Inter-17 (F17) specs are ?!

There been so many of them and the class rules almost explicetly state that everything as delivered d by PC or their dealors is OD compliant. But that is a topic for another forum.

I'm sorry to hear BC coming down with significant damage, never a good thing especially if caused by another.

Wouter
Posted By: Buccaneer

Re: Midwinters update - 03/09/08 12:18 PM

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Quote
So what was the pop, was it Curry hitting the sound barrier? Or was it one of the F16 rudders snapping, or your hull breaking off. Try some honest reporting and may be you guys will gain some respect.


Where did that come from? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />


Perhaps he’s more than a little jealous. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Btw- what was the ‘pop’? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Midwinters update - 03/09/08 12:24 PM

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Btw- what was the ‘pop’



In my case 2 years ago, it was the "mainsail shackle+ring" up the top breaking and that 15 dollar item does indeed put an end to your racing (sail comes down). I can tell you that it is very hard to find a quick replacement for that. Typically a very tall D-shackle will also do the job, but those are very rare in repair kits. The hook itself with its edges will cut through any line when you put 450 kg mainsheet tension and 500 kg downhaul tension on it. You also completely deform and break any welded trapeze rings. Afterall we broke the thing in 25+ knots and big waves.

I'm not saying I know what the pop in PTP case was, but I do understand that it can sometimes be a very small item (little damage) that puts you out of action for the whole weekend ! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Wouter
Posted By: fin.

Re: Midwinters update - 03/09/08 02:20 PM

"Grow a sack and post on the open forum."

I asked that an update be posted here so we wouldn't annoy the folks on the main forum.

You're getting to be as rude as your bald-headed friend.
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Midwinters update - 03/09/08 04:09 PM



Now I don't know who pissed in Brett's cerial this morning but I guess it was me some years ago <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> at it always seems to be that way !

But who is saying that we don't have honest reporting here. How many hours ago did the pop happen ? It is a bloody weekend, for Gawd sake !

Give it some time to run its own course.

Wouter
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Midwinters update - 03/09/08 04:44 PM

I dont even know who the guy is??
Posted By: RZW

Re: Midwinters update - 03/09/08 05:25 PM

I came over to Key Sailing to take a look at the F16 and F17, seemed like a good chance to view these two cats on the water. I sure learned alot in a few hours.

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Race 2.. ahd a great start, hit the pin end with speed right at the gun. Smoking upwind and heard a pop which was something breaking which required us to forget the rest of the regatta. Had to help my friend with his boat.... I will fill you guys in on that later.


An F16 came to the beach with a damaged hull, they quickly disassembled the boat and left. I think the hull was toast.

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BC was holed while sailing a boat that may not have met F17 OD specs (special USSA approval)... mmmh? was that fair to the other F17 guys?


The F17 that was hit is a brand new F17, just purchased. The boat was equipped with the new aluminum mast & sail. (Class Legal)

From my view & some talk on the beach, three F17s usually finish ahead of the F16s.

F16 Blade very nice looking boat, nicely equipped. My ownly concern was the breakage that occurred during the first day.
F17 also nicely finished, definitely was a larger cat. also has a nice hardware package.

These are just my views
Have a nice day

Rich
Posted By: fin.

Re: Midwinters update - 03/09/08 05:36 PM

Thanks Rich. Did you happen to get the sail number of the damaged Blade?
Posted By: bobcat

Re: Midwinters update - 03/09/08 05:39 PM

Bret Moss
Posted By: Mary

Re: Midwinters update - 03/09/08 06:14 PM

Pete, I don't think he said it was a Blade that had been damaged. Just that it was an F16. Were there other brands of F16's there besides Blades?
Posted By: fin.

Re: Midwinters update - 03/09/08 06:21 PM

I think Blades are the only F16s attending.
Posted By: Mary

Re: Midwinters update - 03/09/08 06:25 PM

Well, then I guess that was a good guess. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Thomm225

Re: Midwinters update - 03/09/08 07:47 PM

I think it was PTP's Blade. I went over to look at it yesterday after checking out the hole in the new F17 and the busted up bow on the Nacra 20. I'm a little worried about that Blade though with the location of the break.

Tom
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Midwinters update - 03/09/08 08:16 PM



Does anybody have the full results of that event ?

Wouter
Posted By: fin.

Re: Midwinters update - 03/09/08 08:51 PM

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I think it was PTP's Blade. I went over to look at it yesterday after checking out the hole in the new F17 and the busted up bow on the Nacra 20. I'm a little worried about that Blade though with the location of the break.

Tom


OMG!! You leave us hanging like that!? Who hit whom? Where was the damage? Anyone injured? Pictures?

More! Please! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Why so much carnage?
Posted By: Thomm225

Re: Midwinters update - 03/09/08 11:17 PM

The F17 and the NACRA 20 had a collision. The break on the Blade was just forward of the front mainbeam about a foot or so on the inside right hull (ah.....starboard hull for you real sailor types). It was cracked basically from top to bottom........(I don't know the details of what he may have hit or when)

The winds were gusting on Saturday and somewhat out of the North which means lots of shifts. If you are not used to that then you were in for a long weekend.

Tom
Posted By: tshan

Re: Midwinters update - 03/10/08 12:12 AM

I posted something that wasn't accurate. It was supposed to be a humorous message about F17 changing their rig.

BC does NOT HAVE ANY problems with F17 OD regulations. He is testing it for the manufacturer and helping implement the new rig. It was an irresponsible post that in hindsight was poor judgement (on my part) that reflected poorly on BC. I apologized to BC this morning and he accepted it.

Rick, Mary or moderators: can you delete my prior post on this thread? Thank you.
Posted By: Buccaneer

Re: Midwinters update - 03/10/08 05:13 AM

Where are those details? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Mary

Re: Midwinters update - 03/10/08 09:10 AM

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I posted something that wasn't accurate. It was supposed to be a humorous message about F17 changing their rig.

BC does NOT HAVE ANY problems with F17 OD regulations. He is testing it for the manufacturer and helping implement the new rig. It was an irresponsible post that in hindsight was poor judgement (on my part) that reflected poorly on BC. I apologized to BC this morning and he accepted it.

Rick, Mary or moderators: can you delete my prior post on this thread? Thank you.

I think NOBODY should ever suggest, even in jest, that somebody is cheating or even give that hint or perception. I'm glad you apologized.
Posted By: fin.

Re: Midwinters update *DELETED* - 03/10/08 11:47 AM

Post deleted by Tikipete
Posted By: PTP

Re: Midwinters update - 03/10/08 12:39 PM

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Do you think it is in the Corinthian spirit for a factory to equip a ringer with special equipment in an open competition? I don't.

That situation makes the sailor a professional competing against amateurs. It certainly isn't what I consider fair play.

it wouldn't bother me so much if the guy weren't so eager to point out how much more experienced he is than the "rookies" on the course
Posted By: Mary

Re: Midwinters update - 03/10/08 01:24 PM

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That situation makes the sailor a professional competing against amateurs. It certainly isn't what I consider fair play.

Pete, if "professionals" were not allowed to compete in regattas, you would be eliminating a high percentage of all the people who race sailboats. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Midwinters update - 03/10/08 01:29 PM

That is a discussion worthy of its own thread, either here or on the open forum.
Posted By: fin.

Re: Midwinters update - 03/10/08 02:06 PM

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Quote
That situation makes the sailor a professional competing against amateurs. It certainly isn't what I consider fair play.

Pete, if "professionals" were not allowed to compete in regattas, you would be eliminating a high percentage of all the people who race sailboats. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />


I'm not following you, <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> but I'll bite. How many people were paid to sail at the last Tradewinds? Or, were given factory equipment to use?
Posted By: fin.

Re: Midwinters update - 03/10/08 02:07 PM

How about on the F16 forum? If I file a complaint with US Sailing, I'd like to be certain of my grounds.
Posted By: tshan

Re: Midwinters update - 03/10/08 02:24 PM

Someone has to test the effect of the changes to equipment. Why not let the people who know something about it test it and measure the differential? I certainly wouldn't know enough to give a valid measurement.

I personally think the F17 class/NACRA is doing a good job of implementing this change in a measured way. The end result is that cost of building boats will be reduced (standardization of mast section, less carbon). I do not think they are doing it to make the new boats noticeably faster (total surface area of mast and sails are equal, or at least very close) – in fact they are being certain to NOT obsolete the current fleet. It is a very tough decision to introduce changes in any One Design boat – they will be criticized if they never update the boat, they will be criticized if they update the boat too often and they will be criticized if they release a similar design (that includes the latest technology) that obsoletes an existing boat. Tough decisions.

Let it go. Change within a class is left up to its class memers and manufacturer(s) (didn't we just debate this). Let them deal with it.
Posted By: fin.

Re: Midwinters update - 03/10/08 02:29 PM

Let it go <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />! Ok! But, it's a mistake.

Any numbers? Any more carnage? Sounds like it was very challenging.
Posted By: tshan

Re: Midwinters update - 03/10/08 03:37 PM

Some racing details. I cannot comment on many of the races, as I was not actually in a lot of them…… This is my recollection and should be pretty accurate. Please correct me if I make a mistake.

Saturday was COLD and WINDY, at least for a Southern US recreational sailor. Easy double trap and max-depower kind of day. Good news was that the sea state was minimal as the wind was coming from the NW or NNW and we were sailing in protected waters.

Two Fleets: N20 fleet with 10+ (I think) boats and Open fleet with 13 boats (4 F18s: 2 Infusions, 1 NACRA F18 and 1 Hobie Tiger, 4 F17s, 4 F16s: all Blades and 1 H17).

Pre-Race: One Blade (sail7seas) broke a rudder while moving the boat on the beach. They were fully rigged, dressed and ready to push off the beach – one rudder got caught in the sand and broke. Not a good omen.

Race 1: I was late setting up and leaving the beach, so I missed the start. A lot of boats missed the start in both fleets. Tback missed it, too so we sailed around and bobbed for an hour. Did I say it was cold and windy…… I don’t know any details about this race, as I was trying to stay warm. I couldn’t even tell you started it. PTP was the only F16 in it.

Prior to race 2 and after race 1: The US Coast Guard boarded the RC boat. They got a 911 call from a passer-by that a boat was sinking. A few boats did turn over, but none were sinking. They then wanted to make sure the RC had all the appropriate documentation on safety, etc. Another 20 minutes to wait and shiver. Adjust race course to more westerly direction. Another 10 minutes or more.

Race 2: A, C-gate, A, C-gate, Finish. Still cold and still windy. The 2 F18 Infusions were pretty fast and got out front pretty quickly followed by an F17 (I am not entirely sure about the positions of 2nd F18 and the first F17, they could be reversed). PTP had a good start and looked to be moving pretty good. Halfway to the windward mark his starboard hull cracked open - double trap, high wind, high loads (?). He was done for the weekend and limped back to shore. A small gap behind the first F17 (sometimes no gap at all) and there were 2 F16s and 2 F17s followed by another F18 (Tiger), then the H17. I could not keep up with the NACRA F18 was and am unsure where they finished in the fleet. They could have been out front, in back or on the beach. I don’t know. We had some really close racing between the F16s and F17s. The F17s pointed higher but we always seemed to converge on A mark at the same time, maybe we carried more speed to offset the extra distance sailed. The second trip to the leeward gate had F16, F17, F16, F17 all on starboard heading into the gate. Big puff came through + everyone was eeking out as much speed as possible = 2 capsizes. One F16 and F17 capsized just a few seconds before dousing their spinnakers. I got through the gate first in this group followed closely by an F17. He sailed a better Gate-to-Finsh and beat me across the line. Elapsed finishes that I can recall: F18, F18 or F17, F17 or F18, F17, F16……… I didn’t watch the rest finishes as I was disappointed in my performance on the last leg and I was pretty cold.

Race 3: A, C-gate, A, C-gate, Finish. Still cold and still windy. The forecast called for diminishing winds throughout the day – but it didn’t happen. Same story as Race 2. The Layline F18 got out quickly. This time the 2nd F18 Infusion and the lead F17 were included in the fray with the pack. Close racing to A, close racing to the Gate. This allowed me (yes, me of all people) to be the second boat through the gate (1st boat was the Layline F18). Forgive my giddiness, but it was a big moment for me – as the last time I sailed was in October. There was an F17 right on my sterns. The second F18 Infusion bailed at the gate as there was no room for him to pass. I quickly screwed up my upwind leg and ran aground while the fleet passed me by. One F17 was working up the left-middle and got in some traffic with the N20s coming back downwind. One N20 did not see the F17, gybed and t-boned the F17 at speed. Big hole and cracked deck between the main beam and side stay. Big impact from the damage I saw. Complete accident and luckily no one was hurt. Capsize by an F16 back downwind and a spin problem on an F17 allowed me to get back in the race. Elapsed finishes: F18, F18, F16, F17, F16/F17, F17/F16, F18, H17. Again I do not know where the other NACRA F18 finished and I didn’t pay much attention to who finished after me. I would assume the F17 corrected out over me on handicap.

Sunday was supposed to be warmer and 5 to 10 mph winds. Wrong. It was COLD and WINDY, again. The wind had shifted around and the sea state was bumpier and it was definitely colder – just as windy.

Races 4 and 5: I was a little late leaving the beach and was adjusting all the final control lines and watching for the N20 start (Open Fleet was the second start on Saturday). Well, lo and behold they started Open Fleet first and I missed it. I didn’t even realize it until the N20s started. By that time, I was fairly pissed off and went to the beach to watch the races. I had good intentions of sailing race 5, but the longer I sat on the beach in the cold wind, the more I dreaded it. I finally canned the weekend, put the boat on the trailer and moved on. TBack and Sail7Seas (borrowed a rudder from PTP) sailed both races in some pretty tough conditions. I do not know the order of finishes, except the Layline F18 was out front again. Overall, about half the boats from each fleet did not sail on Sunday – some due to break down and some due to desire (I guess).

I think there was some pretty tight racing between the 1-up F16s and the F17s (and some F18s mixed in). Lots of positions trading back and forth. It comes down to boat handling/skill of the sailor. I certainly felt out of control and felt my tacking/gibing/roundings were particularly bad. I do feel that the F16 is quicker, but I failed to deliver the skill to reach its potential. I had some good runs and I had some pitiful moments, too. Consistency takes practice.

The F17s did very well taking 2 of the top 3 spots in Open Fleet. 2 of them sailed every race. Good job by them.
Posted By: fin.

Re: Midwinters update - 03/10/08 03:54 PM

Thanks for the report. I don't know how you remember all that stuff!

Hope you're thawed out by now!
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Midwinters update - 03/10/08 04:50 PM



Good posting by Tshan about the nacra F17's; indeed that class had to do something and it seems this is the only right way to go about it. Got to respect that.

Wouter
Posted By: fin.

Re: Midwinters update - 03/10/08 04:56 PM

I'd like to see more disclosure. If you're being sponsored by a factory, just say so.
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Midwinters update - 03/10/08 05:02 PM

Pete,

why dont we start a new thread on that topic. When are you a professional and what do others feel about competing with them on the racecourse. Fair or not?
Posted By: Mary

Re: Midwinters update - 03/10/08 05:06 PM

This is totally ridiculous! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: fin.

Re: Midwinters update - 03/10/08 05:07 PM

No, I'm done with the whole thing.
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Midwinters update - 03/10/08 05:11 PM

I just started a thread on it on the open forum.
Why is it ridiculous? I think it is an interesting topic as long as we dont get personal.
Posted By: Thomm225

Re: Midwinters update - 03/10/08 05:16 PM

Why would you not want to race against the best?

Tom
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Midwinters update - 03/10/08 05:18 PM

Tom,

happy to discuss it in the thread on the open forum.
Posted By: fin.

Re: Midwinters update - 03/10/08 05:23 PM

$. Testing skill is one thing. Trying to keep up an equipment arms race with a factory is another.

If you represent a factory just say so. I'll run what I brung, and keep my wallet in my pocket.

If you're an amateur and a friend, I have an obligation to stay current with developement so the competition is a test of skill, not equipement
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Midwinters update - 03/10/08 05:26 PM


I for one am thrilled to see the F16's and nacra F17's go head to head.

The cat racing scene is too small to all lock ourselves away on our own little islands anyway.

Much better to just join fleets, have a good time and learn from eachother !

With respect to Tikipete. BC is not sailing a factory supplied F16 so I don't really see how he has any obligations to us as F16 sailors. So he brought a new design to the fray, good for him !

He won the event ? Well, did any of us expect anything other then that from BC ? He is a very good sailor; as we all know very well.

Wouter
Posted By: tshan

Re: Midwinters update - 03/10/08 05:44 PM

Unfortunately, it was BC that got hit by the N20 - but he was on his way to winning the regatta before the accident. He missed races 3, 4 and 5 due to a gapping hole in his port hull. It is somewhat amazing that no one got hurt. The top three in Open Fleet were (I THINK I have the order correct):

1. F17 (Schwall)
2. F18 (Lennard/Krantz)
3. F17 (Teets)

Good quote: "The cat racing scene is too small to all lock ourselves away on our own little islands anyway. Much better to just join fleets, have a good time and learn from each other !"

On my way home from Pensacola yesterday, I saw a tiny rural church (Flomaton, AL) with these words on the sign out front: "Hate hurts the hater more than the hated."
Posted By: fin.

Re: Midwinters update - 03/10/08 05:55 PM

Consider golf for a moment. If a professional is paid to endorse a particular brand of club, that's one thing. But if the same professional criticizes another brand without disclosing his ties to the first, that in IMO is deceit.

If you represent a product, just say so. I'll add my own grain of salt.

Having all the formula boats sail together, IMO, is fantastic. But, it's portsmouth racing. That sends some people into a rage. At least one person of my acquaintance has said he will quit the sport rather than race portsmouth. So, as with most things, there are both good and bad points.
Posted By: Mary

Re: Midwinters update - 03/10/08 07:06 PM

Quote
Having all the formula boats sail together, IMO, is fantastic. But, it's portsmouth racing. That sends some people into a rage. At least one person of my acquaintance has said he will quit the sport rather than race portsmouth. So, as with most things, there are both good and bad points.

Just because different classes start together does not mean they are racing against each other on Portsmouth. If you have, say, three different one-design and/or formula classes starting in the same start, if each of those classes has enough boats to be considered a "class" for the racing and scoring purposes, they are all going to be scored as one-design in their own classes. Right? So what's the problem?

If there is an open Portsmouth class starting in the same group, they will be scored on Portsmouth. Right? So what's the problem?
Posted By: fin.

Re: Midwinters update - 03/10/08 07:16 PM

For me? None.
Posted By: Robi

Re: Midwinters update - 03/10/08 08:36 PM

Karma is a bitchthing
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: Midwinters update - 03/10/08 09:08 PM

You may not have the stones but we know someone else does, there is always at least one.

It's always better to do it by the book. The second you try to do what you think is the right thing you get punished for it.
Posted By: PTP

Re: Midwinters update - 03/10/08 09:16 PM

I had a great time at the race but unfortunately couldn't hang around much because I had to help my crew rescue his own damaged boat (and, had to keep wifey happy too of course).
Regarding my hull issue that Tom accurately described in his great race report-
One thing I have learned sailing these boats for a short time is this: stuff breaks. Oddly enough, I like fixing and working on the boats. That is part of the fun for me. However, no matter whether it is a 400lb monster or an Acat, things break. Remember Hodges pulling the rear beam out of his Acat? I can't tell you how many centerboards and rudders broke during the 2005 Alter Cup (had to overnight new ones from the factory!). A gooseneck broken off the mast because of a fall onto it during a capsize. Almost tearing a bow tang out of the hull when the wind blows it over even when it is tied down. The transoms of some boats have been torn off by running aground. Pete's mast came down once, right? Robi went through his sail once (how many people have done that?). Stater broke his rudder this weekend. Who was it with the 5.2 or 5.8 on the main forum who had his whole hull break off and slam into the other? The list goes on and on and I have only really been in this sport and paying attention for 2.5 years!
My hull had a problem which is being dealt with as we speak. Thanks to TBack for letting me piggy-back my hulls on his trailer on his way home from Midwinters. Forensics to follow.
Am I mad? No, because [censored] breaks in this sport because it can be violent and the loads are huge at times. I am also not mad because the manufacturer is being very responsive. Do you know of anyone at the other manufacturers that would return my (me, as amateur as they come!) call on a saturday night?
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: Midwinters update - 03/10/08 09:19 PM

Quote


Now I don't know who pissed in Brett's cerial this morning but I guess it was me some years ago <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> at it always seems to be that way !

Wouter


Wouter my friend it's that way because it's TRUE! And Wout, make no mistake you pissed in a LOT of cereal.

I'm also a fan of a little less hype and a little more fact.
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Midwinters update - 03/10/08 10:20 PM

Nobody is saying that it isn't true or anything to that effect.

Just to have it run its natural course.

I'm also a big fan of facts and I honestly fail to see the acclaimed hype part is in all this.

Surely you are not claiming that after having over 50 VWM Blade F16's produced and sailing for several years that PTP's cracked hull proves anything other then it being the exception to the rule ?

The reasonable thing to do seems to wait for the analysis to be completed and whether either PTP or VWM feels inclined to comment publically on it. From personal communication I gether PTP is very satisfied with the customer service of VWM.

Honestly, I really don't see what the big thing is here.

By the way, do you know how many registered F18 boat there are in the USA ?

Wouter
Posted By: Mary

Re: Midwinters update - 03/10/08 10:25 PM

"By the way, do you know how many registered F18 boat there are in the USA ?"

Who cares? Isn't this the F16 forum?
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Midwinters update - 03/10/08 10:26 PM



Quote

I can't tell you how many centerboards and rudders broke during the 2005 Alter Cup


That was the one on the Hobie Tigers right ?

Wouter
Posted By: Mary

Re: Midwinters update - 03/10/08 10:27 PM

Do I need to reiterate? This is the F16 forum; right? Or am I in the wrong place?
Posted By: PTP

Re: Midwinters update - 03/10/08 10:29 PM

Quote


Quote

I can't tell you how many centerboards and rudders broke during the 2005 Alter Cup


That was the one on the Hobie Tigers right ?

Wouter

oops... got the year wrong. it was 2006 AC in pensacola
Posted By: PTP

Re: Midwinters update - 03/10/08 10:38 PM

Quote
Do I need to reiterate? This is the F16 forum; right? Or am I in the wrong place?


part of the problem sometimes is that this ISN'T just an F16 forum. If it were then people who hate the F16 wouldn't always be trolling through here!
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Midwinters update - 03/10/08 10:44 PM



Mary your inbox is full !

And we have always discussed things not stricktly F16's on this forum. From Rugby (recently) to how polynesians navigate by their testicles. Humm, maybe there isn't that much difference between these two examples ! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Wouter
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Midwinters update - 03/10/08 10:48 PM


Humm that would be the one on the Nacra Inter-20's then, because Nacra couldn't deliver the promised Infusions.

Mind you the infusions shipped to EU that same year ALL broke their daggerboards within weeks. Nacra had to ship in an emergency batch of new boards to avoid F18 sailors missing any official races because of it. Split open on the seams as well.

All was properly adressed by Nacra however and that was the last we saw of it.

I guess such things even happen to companies with over 30 years of experience in building overweight boats. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Wouter
Posted By: TeamChums

Re: Midwinters update - 03/11/08 03:44 AM

Hull failures aren't just limited to one manufacture. Sure the Blade has had a few glitches but I also saw a few Infusions split at the seams on the bottoms that were well cared for. I for one am glad to hear that the manufacture returned a phone call on Saturday night. That shows they care and will probably look at what happend closely to see if it is a deficiency and possibly correct it. I do have to point out that Performance Cat returned my phone call on a Sat in the past as well.

Lee Wicklund/Team Chums
Posted By: fin.

Re: Midwinters update - 03/11/08 12:37 PM

I once broke the hull of a H-16 in much the way PTP describes his break. It was the last time my wife ever set foot on a beach cat! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Timbo

Re: Midwinters update - 03/11/08 06:48 PM

Does anyone have a link for the full results for the Perf. Midwinters last weekend? Thanks. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Wouter

Hype and facts : Midwinters update - 03/12/08 12:09 AM

[Linked Image]


Well the facts are slowing coming in :

Quote

An F16 came to the beach with a damaged hull, they quickly disassembled the boat and left. I think the hull was toast.



I saw a couple of pics, it is a crack alright but not a broken off hull. I've seen a very similar crack repaired on another boat and that one is still sailing.

Seems VWM is taking full control of the situation but I feel unjustified in publically disclosing details in this matter. That is up to PTP and VWM. However, PTP mentioned in another public post that he is looking for somebody to bring a VWM part back with them to Pensacola from the say the A-cat/F16 invitational and he is refering to sailing soon again. We can all inteprete the situation correctly on those bits of info, I think.


[Linked Image]


Quote

From my view & some talk on the beach, three F17s usually finish ahead of the F16s.


Looking over the race results as given here :

http://www.catsailor.com/forums/sho...umber=137527&page=0&vc=1

It doesn't look like much of a dependable comparison and there is not much support for the claim that the 3 F17's usually finished head of F16's other then due to a DNC or DNF. Basically the racing was a major blow out with less then halve the registered boats racing on average.

Race 1 : 5 out of 14 racing
Race 2 : 10 out of 14 racing
Race 3 : 8 out of 14 racing
Race 4 : 4 out of 14 racing
Race 5 : 5 out of 14 racing

Where of the F16 group only Terry Back has raced 3 out of 5 races; Tom Shannon did 2 races out of 5 and F16 newbies like PTP and Stater doing only 1 out of 5. A F17 sailor like Chad Schwall doing 5 out of 5 and Curry 4 out 5.

That is a pretty stuffed up set of data, my friends.

But even then we have the following line-up, of F16's and F17's that actually started/finished :

Race -1-

-1- Bob Curry Nacra F17 42:09
-2- Chad Schwall Nacra F17 44:08
-3- Mike Teets Nacra F17 45:07
-4- Pat and Mark Blade F16 49:04 (not bad, Pat, for a very first race on the Blade F16 against likes of BC !)


Race -2-

-1- Bob Curry Nacra F17 40:28
-2- Chad Schwall Nacra F17 43:40
-3- Tom Shannon Blade F16 44:16
-4- Terry Back Blade F16 46:50
-5- Mike Teets Nacra F17 50:25


Race -3-

-1- Chad Schwall Nacra F17 38:08
-2- Tom Shannon Blade F16 40:24
-3- Mike Teets Nacra F17 41:24
-4- Terry Back Blade F16 47:35


Race -4-

no F16's started this race; only Chad and Mike started on the F17's


Race -5-

-1- Terry Back Blade F16 0:40:02 ..... But Tshan is disclaiming this result, he says he retired.
-2- Chris Stater Blade F16 43:35
-3- Chad Schwall Nacra F17 44:06
-4- Mike Teets Nacra F17 44:46


[Linked Image]



No disrespect to Tom, Terry, Patrick, Joe, Chris and Eric, but Curry is a hot shot on the F17 and the F16 hotshots like Joanna/Oley, the Mc's, Timbo and I think also John Laughlin and Constantine Serementis were not at this event. I don't know how to relate Tom and Terry to Mike and Chad.

But I do think that if we can concluded anything from these sparse results then it must be that things appear pretty even. Which handicap systems like Texel and USPN do indeed suggest.


Seems that we've got to keep doing these mixed fleets !

Wouter

Attached picture 137549-Blade_F16_Performance_Midwinder_2008_pic_55.jpg
Posted By: tshan

Re: Hype and facts : Midwinters update - 03/12/08 12:49 AM

Chad and Mike sailed a good regatta and should get the kudos for 1st and 3rd. Someone told me Chad was 4th at the last F17 NAs and Mike could not have been far off that pace. I couldn't verify it, though. Remember that they were knocking off some rust after the winter break, too.
Posted By: tback

Re: Hype and facts : Midwinters update - 03/12/08 12:52 AM

As posted on the Open Forum:

Scoring Corrrection:

In the 5th Race (2nd Race on Sunday) I was scored a "2" ...

... I was actually last. After a capsize late in the 1st race on Sunday, I had to go to shore to lower and raise my main (main sail came out of the lower luff track). I was late to the start and after doing one AC(g) I sailed thru the S-F to inform the RC to score me a last and I'll wait for the next race to start.

This didn't get properly recorded.

------------------------------

In the two races that Tom and I actually started -- ON TIME <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> it was pretty close racing between us and the two F17's (Chad and Mike ... clearly Bob remains atop the field).

The F17's do seem to point better to wind, but as Tom stated, we do seem to converge on the windward mark. Downwind we're about the same ... although an F17 skipper mentioned that we (F16's) looked skittish under spi'. I agreed and suggested that the helm was so neutral that the slightest movement of the tiller caused the boat to react instantly ... and it's more a need for the F16 skipper to have more confidence and not "over react" to the gust and feather the helm .... MUCH EASIER STATED THAN DONE.
Posted By: Robi

Re: Hype and facts : Midwinters update - 03/12/08 01:12 AM

Terry you will be missed this weekend man. Thanks for the posts.

Its going to be great sailing and lots of speed comparing is going to be going on.
Posted By: Dlennard

Re: Hype and facts : Midwinters update - 03/12/08 01:23 AM

Hey Wouter,

I think you forgot the heavy F18's <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: tback

Re: Hype and facts : Midwinters update - 03/12/08 01:34 AM

Yea, feel bad that my .... errrrrrr .... wife planned a 75th Bday party for her mom that weekend and (jeeeeezzzzz I feel like TIMBO) stated that ** I WILL ** be in attendance.

Anyway, I might make it over for the racing and festivities on Sunday.
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Hype and facts : Midwinters update - 03/12/08 01:39 AM

Not intentionally, just wanted to keep the result listing simple. I was replying to a statement about F16 vs F17 performance after all.

Besides you guys on the Layline infusion F18 taking four 1st out off 4 races entered was a bit boring ! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Well sailed guys and looking sharp !

[Linked Image]

Wouter

Attached picture 137568-Dave_F18_pme-2008-d1-051.jpg
Posted By: Dlennard

Re: Hype and facts : Midwinters update - 03/12/08 02:55 AM

Hey Wouter I was just kidding with you. I wish that more of the F16's could have sailed. Bob's F17 did have a F18 mast section cut to the right length.
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Hype and facts : Midwinters update - 03/12/08 03:20 AM

While were are talking with c.q. about Terry and Tom here; look what these guys did :


Suddenly they find themselves leading two Nacra F17's on the downwind leg, right ?


[Linked Image]


Then they sudden realize the gravity of that situation and what do they do ?!??!

They simultaniously "moon" the nacra F17's by sticking their bows in !


[Linked Image]


From the next series of pictures it appears that Terry, who dives deepest, survives that manouvre while Tom doesn't.

Wouter

Attached picture 137580-Blade_F16_performance_midwinters_USA_2008_pic_238_cut_out.jpg
Posted By: Wouter

Got some more great shots here .... - 03/12/08 03:29 AM

Who is trying to squeeze himself between the committee boat and that Hobie Tiger ?

[Linked Image]


But he does get away with it :

[Linked Image]


Anxiously looking back at a nacra F17 who is just behind. Is that Bob C. with that excellent start position on the far right ?

[Linked Image]


Attached picture 137583-Blade_F16_performance_midwinter_pme-2008-d1-149.jpg
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Got some more great shots here .... - 03/12/08 03:41 AM

See the full collection here :

http://www.thebeachcats.com/index.php?module=pictures&g2_itemId=40788&g2_page=1

[Linked Image]

Wouter

Attached picture 137584-Blade_F16_performance_midwinter_pme-2008-d1-322.jpg
Posted By: fin.

Re: Got some more great shots here .... - 03/12/08 12:29 PM

I noticed the H17 had a very respectable finish. It would be nice to get his view and those of the other 17's as well.

Does anyone know them well enough to ask for their thoughts?

Haven't heard from Chris Stater either.
Posted By: tback

Re: Got some more great shots here .... - 03/12/08 12:50 PM

Quote
Who is trying to squeeze himself between the committee boat and that Hobie Tiger ?



That would be me ... got caught behind and could either run the line or slow down and dive in ... chose the later.
Posted By: tback

Re: Hype and facts : Midwinters update - 03/12/08 12:55 PM

Quote

From the next series of pictures it appears that Terry, who dives deepest, survives that manouvre while Tom doesn't.

Wouter


Nope ... I actually capsized. This was Race2 at the last C(g) rounding. One of the Nacra17's also capsized as he was checking that I got back on the boat and caught a gust and flipped too. Sorry! I quickly got the boat righted and finished without any boats passing me....yippee.
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Hype and facts : Midwinters update - 03/12/08 01:04 PM

Quote

Nope ... I actually capsized. This was Race2 at the last C(g) rounding. One of the Nacra17's also capsized as he was checking that I got back on the boat and caught a gust and flipped too. Sorry! I quickly got the boat righted and finished without any boats passing me....yippee.



So that explains the elapsed time difference between the numbers 1,2,3 and 4 (by 3 min) and 5 (by 6 min) in race 2 !

Basically, the skippers participating in race 2 : Chad (F17), Tom (F16), Terry (F16) and Mike (F17) were mere seconds apart on the last mark rounding before finishing with Bob Curry (F17) being some 3 minutes in front of this pack !

Nothing like a bit of photographic evidence as counterweight the rumours and stories on the beach and forums afterwards.

Wouter
Posted By: Thomm225

Re: Hype and facts : Midwinters update - 03/12/08 01:50 PM

Quote


Nothing like a bit of photographic evidence as counterweight the rumours and stories on the beach and forums afterwards

Wouter


What rumors and stories? Looked like to me everyone was just happy to be racing. And it appeared they were all working really hard at it. Not an easy weekend of sailing. (awesome pictures BTW)
Posted By: PTP

Re: Hype and facts : Midwinters update - 03/12/08 01:58 PM

Quote
Quote


Nothing like a bit of photographic evidence as counterweight the rumours and stories on the beach and forums afterwards

Wouter


What rumors and stories? Looked like to me everyone was just happy to be racing. And it appeared they were all working really hard at it. Not an easy weekend of sailing.

Saturday was nothing compared to getting the boat down to Key on Friday!!!! That is the main reason why I didn't go out solo when Mark Murray decided not to sail on Saturday. I did not have the energy to sail solo on saturday, esp in puffy conditions. You are right, wind from the north on the sound is tricky
Posted By: Thomm225

Re: Hype and facts : Midwinters update - 03/12/08 02:08 PM

I was at Saunder's Beach (on the mainland) Friday around 3:30-4:00pm watching the wind gust then back way off. That woulda been a hard/(pain in the butt) sail from Navarre to Key especially if you were dealing with winter rust...........

Tom
Posted By: PTP

Re: Hype and facts : Midwinters update - 03/12/08 02:10 PM

Winter rust? Not me! I was down there sailing a month ago <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
I swear the puffs were about 30kn on Friday. Hard to hold things together and make progress on a light boat, especially 1-up and me being light anyway.
Posted By: Thomm225

Re: Hype and facts : Midwinters update - 03/12/08 02:17 PM

I was watching this twin masted 35'-40' monohull go out to the end of the channel on jib (not unfurled all the way) alone.(you know how lazy these guys can be) Anyway, the wind was laying him over so much he had to luff up a couple times.
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Hype and facts : Midwinters update - 03/12/08 03:11 PM

Quote

What rumors and stories? Looked like to me everyone was just happy to be racing.



Ohh, just a small selection from rumours started in this thread alone :


Quote

So what was the pop, ..., was it one of the F16 rudders snapping, or your hull breaking off. Try some honest reporting and may be you guys will gain some respect.



Quote

... they quickly disassembled the boat and left. I think the hull was toast.



Quote

From my view & some talk on the beach, three F17s usually finish ahead of the F16s.



PTP's hull didn't break off but cracked, hull isn't toast, PTP didn't leave in a hurry to hide the damage and the 3 F17's didn't usually finish ahead of the F16's. The racing was pretty level despite the event being a blow-out with various crew deciding not to risk it.

Only story still standing is that Layline F18 beat everybody hands down and that Bob Curry is one fast singlehanded sailor with a stroke of bad luck (collision) and a big hole in his hull.


End of story !

Wouter
Posted By: Thomm225

Re: Hype and facts : Midwinters update - 03/12/08 03:19 PM

Yeah, those two guys were sparing back and forth a little but that was probably due to some bad blood stirred up months before by some North-Western Euro kinda guy!

The story continues...........

Tom
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Hype and facts : Midwinters update - 03/12/08 03:26 PM



Quote

The story continues...........



Naturally !

No problem in that, I'm not scared of a little controversy.

Actually I've been keeping track of numbers of postings and views these past 5 weeks and all that the controversies achieved was a sharp rise in postings and views; alot of them by people unassociated with the F16 class (yet).

I guess the old saying in the bookselling industry also holds for us. "A bad press report is still way better then no press report."

Surprisingly as it may seems we appear to have grown and become more stronger because of it.

Naturally I prefer all out rave reviews but I'm not too picky to discard any progress made through controversies.

Lets keep it up !

Besides this is great fun, we should mix F16 and F17 fleets more often !

Wouter
Posted By: PTP

Re: Hype and facts : Midwinters update - 03/12/08 03:34 PM

Quote


Besides this is great fun, we should mix F16 and F17 fleets more often !

Wouter


I am still up in the air about sailing my boat on the Michigan circuit this summer- which means I would be racing against a lot of F17s. I probably wouldn't be scored against them but if we had the same start it would be fine. There are usually enough F17s to have their own start/class. I think it would be great fun. These boats are very similar and I think that the sailor makes the biggest difference of course. Give Fad an F16 and watch him spank the F17s... of course he would never go back <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: fin.

Re: Hype and facts : Midwinters update - 03/12/08 03:35 PM

I'm all for mixed fleet sailing. I don't want anyone sitting home because they don't have a fleet to sail in.

We could learn a lot from the H-17 sailor last weekend. If you keep the pointy end up, you finish more races and have an overall better result. The more skill you have the better the result will be.

For what it's worth, I had a reacher from Calvert sails on my H-17 and it was a screamer!
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Hype and facts : Midwinters update - 03/12/08 05:34 PM

Quote

I am still up in the air about sailing my boat on the Michigan circuit this summer ...



Why is that still up in the air ?

I say go for it and let the chips fall where they may.

There will be nothing we can't handle anyway and training with them is much more fun for you !

Of course they will try to turn you to the dark side and have your boat disappear into a black hole ! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Wouter
Posted By: Thomm225

Re: Hype and facts : Midwinters update *DELETED* - 03/12/08 05:40 PM

Post deleted by Thomm225
Posted By: Timbo

Re: Hype and facts : Midwinters update - 03/12/08 05:45 PM

If you are going to the Dark Side, better be good, they are tough...
Posted By: PTP

Re: Hype and facts : Midwinters update - 03/12/08 05:53 PM

no way would I switch! I still like sailing with other people too much.
I have my F16 in Fl and the 31 up here. However, I had the date of the FWB RTI wrong initially and now that I realized my mistake, I might actually take the 31 to Fl to do the RTI and bring the F16 back (however, 1000miles at 8 MPG to get down there? yikes). I do have friends with cats in Fl to sail with though, so having the F16 up in Mich might make more sense. Who knows... I would probably race the F16 more up in Michigan than in Fl though.
Posted By: Timbo

Re: Hype and facts : Midwinters update - 03/12/08 05:56 PM

OR...you could move to the Gulfport/Tampa/St. Pete area, keep both boats there, race the F16 with the local Gulfport fleet and race the F31 with the F boats in Tampa.
Posted By: PTP

Re: Hype and facts : Midwinters update - 03/12/08 05:58 PM

Quote
OR...you could move to the Gulfport/Tampa/St. Pete area, keep both boats there, race the F16 with the local Gulfport fleet and race the F31 with the F boats in Tampa.

Now if I could just move my house there too <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Timbo

Re: Hype and facts : Midwinters update - 03/12/08 05:58 PM

Live on the F31 at the Gulfport Club! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: PTP

Re: Hype and facts : Midwinters update - 03/12/08 06:01 PM

hot hot hot

I'm a wuss <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: fin.

Re: Hype and facts : Midwinters update - 03/12/08 06:05 PM

We have houses and hospitals down here. But, we don't have snow! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> Guess no place is perfect.
Posted By: Timbo

Re: Hype and facts : Midwinters update - 03/12/08 06:06 PM

Maybe you could talk Robi into renting you a room for a ride on the F31. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: PTP

Re: Hype and facts : Midwinters update - 03/12/08 06:30 PM

pete,
just looked it up. training program in Tampa, new as of 2003. Find a job for my wife and I'll be there <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: fin.

Re: Hype and facts : Midwinters update - 03/12/08 06:32 PM

"new as of 2003"??

What's her specialty? Not that it matters, I'm sure there's something she would like.

Seriously, there are probably seasonal positions that would suite both of you.
Posted By: PTP

Re: Hype and facts : Midwinters update - 03/12/08 06:35 PM

new residency program for EM. gotta train residents to keep it all interesting and to convey my outstanding attitude and skills <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: fin.

Re: Hype and facts : Midwinters update - 03/12/08 06:37 PM

Well, you could re-up. McDill AFB is right around the corner. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: PTP

Re: Hype and facts : Midwinters update - 03/12/08 06:46 PM

Quote
Well, you could re-up. McDill AFB is right around the corner. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />


The only way I would rejoin would be with the Spec Ops guys, but that is not conducive to family life with a wife that works. I don't believe there is an ER at Macdill anyway (thankfully, most air force bases shouldn't even have ERs).
Posted By: Timbo

Re: Hype and facts : Midwinters update - 03/12/08 06:56 PM

The two hospitals in Sebring is always in need of better medical staff! Cheaper homes, plenty of lakes, but no racing fleets, unless we start one.
Posted By: Wouter

Day two pictures can be seen here ! - 03/13/08 01:39 PM

Pictures of day 2 can be seen here :

http://www.thebeachcats.com/index.php?module=pictures&g2_itemId=40827&g2_page=1

And again there are some good shots !


[Linked Image]


And of course we have our own special gallery on the official F16 website !

http://f16.beasts.org/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.ShowItem&g2_itemId=7014

Wouter

Attached picture 137840-Blade_F16_performance_midwinter_pme-2008-d2-165_cut_out_resized.jpg
Posted By: sail7seas

Re: Day two pictures can be seen here ! - 03/13/08 02:29 PM

Race 4 was not news worthy.
Race 5 started 30-60 sec late.
Thought we were first to A mark(don't recall F18). Banging the right side with a right hand shift.
Downwind we were slow, and sail/weight trim will be changed.
A I-17 with a purple spin usually caught up to us, but upwind we pulled away.
Posted By: fin.

Re: Day two pictures can be seen here ! - 03/13/08 02:58 PM

Is this a fault (yellow spin)? Looks like it might provide a little more lift to the bows.

Also, is the ATRS still state of the art or are there refinements. Seriously.

Attached picture 137853-Blade_F16_performance_midwinter_pme-2008-d2-010.jpg
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Day two pictures can be seen here ! - 03/13/08 03:09 PM

They sure are running with a loose halyard! Dont look very fast to me, but..

ATRS??
Posted By: fin.

Re: Day two pictures can be seen here ! - 03/13/08 03:17 PM

ATRS. Alabam Trash Righting System. Invented and coined by Tshan I believe.

Some of the lighter uni guys have difficulty righting so they just take an empty trash bag or two. When they're all set to right, they just scoop a little water into the bag pull it into their laps and viola! Inexpensive and very effective.

Recovery times seem to be improving. I was just wondering if it was due to practice or "technology".

Loose spin halyard- the conditions were pretty rough. Does easing the spin halyard provide more lift to the bows, yielding "survivability" at the cost of speed. Or, is it a fault related to racing pressure and conditions?
Posted By: sail7seas

Re: Day two pictures can be seen here ! - 03/13/08 03:22 PM

Quote
They sure are running with a loose halyard! Dont look very fast to me, but..

ATRS??


Our black mark on the Halyard, was wrong.
So will try again.
The top of the spin was not visual from the back of the boat.
I recall seeing the purple spin more than the yellow.
Posted By: PTP

Re: Day two pictures can be seen here ! - 03/13/08 05:10 PM

Seems loose on the f17, looks good on the blade. but seems like the mainsheet could have been tighter on the blade... but I wasn' there that day, don't know the real conditions (enter any caveat here...). I would think it might (emphasis, might) pull the bows up a little if you let the tack line out on the spin, not halyard (if it is a 2-line set up)
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Day two pictures can be seen here ! - 03/13/08 05:57 PM

About lifting the bows. How much more "upforce" will the new profile of the sail produce if you let out 20-30 cm of the halyard? (Wouter is going to love this) Well, the short answer is 'not much' as the change in the resultant vector is not very large compared to the forces on the mainsail pushing the bow down. I have not done the math (I dont have that kind of math) but the reports I have found on the topic suggests this.
What I think happens is that the sail flattens when you let out the halyard and it rotates to leeward, thus it generates less power but also less drag.
If it was me going downwind, I would have set the spi with a tighter luff and sheeted the main in more. Then pushed the crew out on trapeze so we could heat up the boat. This from somebody with zero practical F16 sailing experience <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Do the I17s usually go downwind with the skipper sitting on the hull? I really look forward to start working on my trapeezing skill while sailing under spi!
Posted By: PTP

Re: Day two pictures can be seen here ! - 03/13/08 06:16 PM

I think if running uni- stay on the hull. If I were racing solo last weekend, I am not sure I would have trapped downwind. I probably would have for a bit (or maybe if I were really behind) until I went over and then I would have stayed on the hull. 2-up I think one definately should go out on the trap if they know how to move around on the trap and stay attached to the boat more or less. The speed difference is huge and, in my experience, sitting on the hull as far back as possible still has the bows digging in and stopping the boat routinely. Need someone on the wire behind the rear beam to keep the bows up. Once that happens then SWEEET! You can fly! and things are actually more stable.
Posted By: fin.

Re: Day two pictures can be seen here ! - 03/13/08 06:37 PM

Quote

If it was me going downwind, I would have set the spi with a tighter luff and sheeted the main in more. Then pushed the crew out on trapeze so we could heat up the boat. This from somebody with zero practical F16 sailing experience <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


If you have access to a heated pool, I'd put in a few practice laps. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Day two pictures can be seen here ! - 03/13/08 06:50 PM

If you can sail the boat in it's current state, you dont need a heated pool.

[Linked Image]

Besides, thanks to the Gulf current we have nice sailing conditions now. Just dont go for a prolonged swim <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Attached picture 137909-frode.JPG
Posted By: Thomm225

Re: Day two pictures can be seen here ! - 03/13/08 07:22 PM

I have never seen an F17 sailor trap out on a downwind leg during a buoy race. They are instead staying onboard and sailing deeper............

Plus, I'm guessing by the time you got trapped out you would have lost valuable time. Also, you wouldn't be able to control the main if you needed to use it to sail up closer to the wind for some reason. (like maybe passing on the windward side if the opportunity presented itself)

Tom
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Day two pictures can be seen here ! - 03/13/08 07:28 PM


I agree with Rolf here.

Set everything rather tight and then slowly head-up to pick up pressure and speed and start snaking , making S-curves to keep the luff hull up.

I found it works best on my boat when I do this hiking out (not trapezing) with my hand only pushing against the tiller arm of the rudder (not the tiller bar or tiller extension). On my boat I can feel the slight changes in pressure on the rudder-tiller and that is enough info for me to tell me whether I need to head up or bare off.

Works for me ; even when it DIDN'T at the GC 2007 <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Although it did again during the following NAM-REM distance race. I was way back after the upwind leg and regained alot (close to 8 minutes) during the last halve of the downwinder.

Wouter
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Day two pictures can be seen here ! - 03/13/08 07:34 PM

Tom,

thanks for the info on the I17s. We discussed this earlier and it seems like we (singlehanded spi cats) might have potential for a fifth gear downwind under spi. When the Musto Skiff guys can drive their boats from the trapeze downwind, we should also be able to do it. I might have to eat those words, but working on it will be fun. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Day two pictures can be seen here ! - 03/13/08 07:38 PM



PTP,

Quote

2-up I think one definately should go out on the trap if they know how to move around on the trap and stay attached to the boat more or less. The speed difference is huge and, in my experience, sitting on the hull as far back as possible still has the bows digging in and stopping the boat routinely. Need someone on the wire behind the rear beam to keep the bows up. Once that happens then SWEEET! You can fly! and things are actually more stable.



That is exactly how most of us have experienced it

Just sitting on the hull next to one another is NOT enough in a blow; that is if you want to go fast. The difference between a crew sitting next to the skipper or hanging behind the skipper on the trapeze (even when in toilet stance) is quite significant. If the crew can even get a little further back as you say and stand level with the rearbeam or use even the footstrap then things start to power and speed up alot and the skipper can drive it hard.

My advice is in line with PTP here, get that second person away from hugging the sidestay and on the trapeze when under spinnaker in a blow. When it is reall rough then a little trick my crew and me do is to have her trust her rear foot between the mainbeam and my rear end and have her grap my lifevest with her rear hand. She holds onto the sheet with her forward hand and I help her trim it. Once trimmed right I handle everything by steering. Then I'm not looking anywhere specific and just drive it by feel.

Only problem for the crew is that he or she one needs to trust the skipper to have a steady hand on the tiller; if your skipper is nervous and twichy on the tiller then by Gawd I refuse to go out on the wire under spinnaker ! Will feel like some stunt man in an action movie trying to hang on on the roof of a car while the bad guy is trying to shake him off !

Wouter
Posted By: PTP

Re: Day two pictures can be seen here ! - 03/13/08 07:56 PM

I can be pretty twitchy driving down until I get a groove going- that is why my crew needs to be experienced in "holding" on when out on the trap. When I crew on an HT, I have my foot in the strap (same place as on the F16) and my aft hand on the transom!
Posted By: scooby_simon

Re: Day two pictures can be seen here ! - 03/13/08 08:18 PM

Quote
I have never seen an F17 sailor trap out on a downwind leg during a buoy race. They are instead staying onboard and sailing deeper............

Plus, I'm guessing by the time you got trapped out you would have lost valuable time. Also, you wouldn't be able to control the main if you needed to use it to sail up closer to the wind for some reason. (like maybe passing on the windward side if the opportunity presented itself)

Tom


Tom,

Interesting, I would wire my Inter 17 down wind above about 10kts and below about 20 and found it to be much faster VMG, BUT, I do sail on a lake with flat water.

I also agree that if the Musto Skiff boys and Girls can do it, we should too!
Posted By: PTP

Re: Day two pictures can be seen here ! - 03/13/08 09:15 PM

I think the F17 would fly downwind on the trap! I think it has more bouyancy up front than an F16 so it would probably be easier to do (but then again, maybe the gains are less then also). I don't think Fad recommends it, but he is always at the front during a race anyway so he doesn't have to haul butt to try to make up ground for stupid mistakes (like my famous tendency to triple tack within 50 yds of a mark or the finish!!!).
maybe there are other reasons he doesn't like trapping out downwind, like ...well... I can't say it!
Posted By: scooby_simon

Re: Day two pictures can be seen here ! - 03/13/08 09:55 PM

Quote
I think the F17 would fly downwind on the trap! I think it has more bouyancy up front than an F16 so it would probably be easier to do (but then again, maybe the gains are less then also). I don't think Fad recommends it, but he is always at the front during a race anyway so he doesn't have to haul butt to try to make up ground for stupid mistakes (like my famous tendency to triple tack within 50 yds of a mark or the finish!!!).
maybe there are other reasons he doesn't like trapping out downwind, like ...well... I can't say it!


T foils on the Stealth make it easier than the Inter 17, and the 17 was well mannered up to about 25kts.
Posted By: Thomm225

Re: Day two pictures can be seen here ! - 03/13/08 10:35 PM

Trapping out downwind (while buoy racing) was tried back in the day, but it just didn't work. The guys that did it found themselves losing too much ground to the rest of the fleet not to mention when they tried to jibe. The boat(F17) will scream downwind in about 16 knots and up anyway. You don't need to trap out. Just sit as far back and to the side as possible and go low when the thing wants to pitchpole.

Now distance racing is another story.


Tom
Posted By: scooby_simon

Re: Day two pictures can be seen here ! - 03/13/08 11:02 PM

Quote
Trapping out downwind (while buoy racing) was tried back in the day, but it just didn't work. The guys that did it found themselves losing too much ground to the rest of the fleet not to mention when they tried to jibe. The boat(F17) will scream downwind in about 16 knots on up anyway. You don't need to trap out. Just sit as far back and to the side as possible and go low when the thing wants to pitchpole.

Now distance racing is another story.


Tom


I'm really interested in this; How big were the courses?

We sail on about 1.25 - 1.5 mile W/L
Posted By: tback

Re: Day two pictures can be seen here ! - 03/13/08 11:08 PM

Roughly 2mi (~1.98mi) W-L each day
Posted By: Thomm225

Re: Day two pictures can be seen here ! - 03/14/08 12:29 AM

I haven't sailed an F17 in almost two years, but don't you think if it was so fast the guys sailing them at Midwinters would have been doing it if it worked so well............??

Tom
Posted By: PTP

Re: Day two pictures can be seen here ! - 03/14/08 12:48 AM

But what is the real reason they weren't out on the wire?
The reason I bring it up is that it is clearly faster to trap out downwind for Me on my Blade. Sitting on the tramp as far back as possible still has the bows dig in too much for me. Maybe this is only me, but the difference between sitting at the rear beam and trapping AT or Behind the rear beam is huge interms of the way the boat drives and flies. The VMG issue can be debated of course though. I don't have a lot of data to support it but I feel that I would get better VMG downwind- including the gybing issues- out on the wire when racing solo. I think a lot of the issue with driving solo is to not get overwhelmed and go over especially in any decent wind. It makes no sense to trap downwind in a race if you are guaranteed to capsize of course.
Some math guys could chime in but the speed difference, IMO, is probably 5 kn(?) or so sitting vs trapping. Lets say you have to run 10degrees higher. Who wins? I hit 18.5-19 kn routinely last week sailing two up with someone on the wire behind me in 15kn (or so) winds

Tback and Tshan... what is your take on this? Do you not trap out downwind because you believe it to be faster or is it mainly a concern about capsizing? I think it is perfectly acceptable to race and not go out on the wire solo. But is it faster?
Hell, I think this has been discussed before... but I don't remember.
Posted By: Thomm225

Re: Day two pictures can be seen here ! - 03/14/08 12:53 AM

Like I said, when the thing wants to pitchpole go low or deep or whatever it is you wanna call it.

If I had it to do over again(when I was first learning the beginner stuff), I think I would just watch the first race at a regatta like Midwinters and see how it's done. The guys that have some time on the tiller don't usually let the bows dig in in the first place. They have already seen the puff coming and are ready to head low even before it arrives.....

Tom
Posted By: PTP

Re: Day two pictures can be seen here ! - 03/14/08 12:54 AM

Quote
Like I said, when the thing wants to pitchpole go low or deep or whatever it is you wanna call it.

this applies to sitting at the back of the boat or on the wire, so what is your point?

When I said the bows dig in- I don't mean to the extent of pitchpoling. I mean that the bows dig in and the water rushes up to the main beam and you slow way down. That is why keeping the bows up is fast (aside from the obvious decreased risk of ppoling)
Posted By: Thomm225

Re: Day two pictures can be seen here ! - 03/14/08 01:07 AM

Quote
Quote
Like I said, when the thing wants to pitchpole go low or deep or whatever it is you wanna call it.

this applies to sitting at the back of the boat or on the wire, so what is your point?

When I said the bows dig in- I don't mean to the extent of pitchpoling. I mean that the bows dig in and the water rushes up to the main beam and you slow way down. That is why keeping the bows up is fast (aside from the obvious decreased risk of ppoling)


Awesome, during a race!(like Midwinters) I think I would just stop at that point and wait for the next race to start! Like I said, the guys with time on the tiller have already seen the gust coming and are prepared if not already turning down.

Tom

ps. Wasn't there a picture of an F16 going over with two F17's just behind, I'm betting they had already seen the gust and if not used the F16 that was about to pitchpole as a guide. In other words, those two F17's probably were able to really nail it from the cue they got by that boy going over. Nothing against the F16 guy, he just needs more time in those conditions.
Posted By: PTP

Re: Day two pictures can be seen here ! - 03/14/08 01:12 AM

I actually consider myself pretty good at feeling the puff and driving downwind. Even if I do turn down, have both bows planted nicely prior to the puff, I still dig into the chop and I still SLOW down. If I am on the wire I go OVER the chop and this doesn't happen. Maybe that is just the way the blade is. An extra 125+lbs and another foot on the 17 might make the 17 not do this as much downwind.
I am still a little lost as to what you are saying.
Posted By: tback

Re: Day two pictures can be seen here ! - 03/14/08 01:23 AM

Patrick,

For UNI sailing --

I'm a believer that in a buoy race getting back and sitting on the hull is best. Heat it up and carve S-turns to drive off the puffs.

Distance racing you can get on the wire if the conditions permit (ie sea state and gusts).

What I find in capsizing under spi (pitchpoling) is that I'm not aggressive enough heating it up ... keeping the apparent wind to the side of the boat. Thus going too slow keeps the apparent wind towards the aft ... and when you get a gust it tends to "trip" the boat back-to-front.

The challenge for me with heating-it-up is to not oversteer (ie rapidly drive off) in the gusts. This was witnessed by an F17 at PerfMidWinters ..."you F16 guys look squirrely under spi".

More time on the water will (hopefully) cure this problem for me. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: PTP

Re: Day two pictures can be seen here ! - 03/14/08 01:34 AM

Tback
thanks. I see your point about short races. If I were in the front of the pack I probably wouldn't trap out, but if it were a "what do I have to lose" scenario then I would. I find that it is a lot easier to drive downwind from the wire. Easier to see the spin/waves/feel the puffs. also easier to look at the leeward bow too. It does, however, take time to set yourself in correctly (most of the time I go over under spin solo is when I am going out on the trap) so you can certainly lose time there.
In the end, it is a situation wherein a mark needs to be made in a GPS for C mark and then you can look at VMG directly to see whether one is truly faster than another. I am not going to be sailing my boat anytime soon so reminf me to do that in a couple months.
Posted By: David Parker

Re: Day two pictures can be seen here ! - 03/14/08 02:21 AM

[Linked Image]

What happened to that rule about keeping your main sheeted in tight when under spin? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: PTP

Re: Day two pictures can be seen here ! - 03/14/08 02:23 AM

That blade would have pulled away from that F17 with the quickness if one of them were on the wire!
<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: _flatlander_

Re: Day two pictures can be seen here ! - 03/14/08 02:49 AM

Quote
ps. Wasn't there a picture of an F16 going over with two F17's just behind, I'm betting they had already seen the gust and if not used the F16 that was about to pitchpole as a guide. In other words, those two F17's probably were able to really nail it from the cue they got by that boy going over. Nothing against the F16 guy, he just needs more time in those conditions.
[Linked Image]
They're running downwind, so the gust hit the F17's first
Posted By: Dermot

Re: Day two pictures can be seen here ! - 03/14/08 09:13 AM

Quote
[Linked Image]

What happened to that rule about keeping your main sheeted in tight when under spin? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

It's easy to talk about someone else but, It looks as if both of them are just running downwind, like with old type spinnakers, not driving as fast as they could. Although if the wind is very strong I'd sometimes do that.
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Day two pictures can be seen here ! - 03/14/08 09:36 AM



Quote

I haven't sailed an F17 in almost two years, but don't you think if it was so fast the guys sailing them at Midwinters would have been doing it if it worked so well............??



No, as there are many other reasons to not trap downwind even if its VMG is actually better.

It also dependents alot on boat setup in my opinion and personal preference. I (Taipan F16) for example am much faster on the hull hiking then on the trapeze under spinnaker (when 1-up that is) but I'll believe without a shred of doubt that Gary (Aussie Blade F16) is much faster while trapped then sitting in.

Wouter
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Day two pictures can be seen here ! - 03/14/08 09:41 AM

Mathematically speaking, when 1-up it is faster to trap. Control can be a problem when 1-up though. The F16's appear to be "footers". They like to be driven fast without too much emphasis on things like pointing high. Just pointing high enough is sufficient, the rest is speed. Upwind is no different as several of you (us) have found out.

For 2-up the same is true but the control is noticeably better here as well. Any 2-up crew who has not got the crew on the wire (in enough wind) under spi is not driving an F16 in the best way possible. However I do admit that it will take some training to be comfortable at it; mostly by the skipper as he need to have a very steady hand on the tiller. The speed increase makes the boat corner like a formula 1 race car.

By the way an alternative is to have the skipper trap out and have the crew with spi sheet sit against the rearbeam. I believe this setup was pioneered by John Casey and John Williams and it worked very well for them. It also makes the skipper eat his own nervousness on the tiller.

Having said all this I believe sitting against the mainbeam and hiking out when 1-up can work really well as well.

Wouter
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Day two pictures can be seen here ! - 03/14/08 09:54 AM



Quote

The guys that have some time on the tiller don't usually let the bows dig in in the first place. They have already seen the puff coming and are ready to head low even before it arrives.....



Excellent point Thomm.

I too feel that many skippers wait for the guts to hit first and then try to salvage it.

I also am convinced that the only way to do it right is to already feather the boat a little bit before the gust hits. It is now a feeling with me and I don't really know how I do it anymore but I believe that I most steer by pressure on the rudder tiller arm (not tiller bar or tiller extension !). If the pressure on it increases then I lets the boat bare off a little on its own accord. Basically I resist this pressure slightly less. When the pressure decreases then I push a little hard against the tiller arm and head up.

If you press me for why that works I believe that I must reply something like this. Every gust has a lead in and a lead out. It needs to pick up speed I believe my boat setup translates this lead in (out) directly (=immediately) into pressure on the rudders before even the boat has time to heel or anything. The spinnaker is far out in front and so its leverage on the rudder is quite large ?

However, I'm also sure that I sense windspeed somehow on my ears or other parts of my body. But anyway I do it, I tend to sense the gust coming 1 or 2 seconds before it actually hits. By that time I have beared off by enough to take the hit without much heeling at all.

Wouter
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Day two pictures can be seen here ! - 03/14/08 10:07 AM

From the prototype Blade F16 testing we learned that the Blade has a very sharp fall off point with respect to diving. But note that it actually has MORE dive resistance then say the Taipan.

The thing a Blade sailor might trip over is the sense that everything is just fine all the way up the threshold, so they implicetly feel that they have ample margin left when in reality they don't. My own boat for example will by that time have already gone to a nose down attitude that can not be considered a dive yet, but that does act as a warning ! So I back off a little when a Blade sailing might hold his position or load it up even more.

Blade sailors must develop a sense where they know they have neared the threshold and keep it there or back off a little.

From a racing point of few, that Blade behaviour is actually preferable as one can now push the boat in proper attitude all the way to the dive threshold (that any design will have somewhere), were guys like myself will have to back-off earlier because bow down attitude is slow. The pay back of course is that a Blade sailor needs to develop a more refined skill to tell when he is nearing that threshold.

I found the FX-one to have much the same behaviour, reports say the Capricorn does so too; I believe it comes with the new hullshapes that concentrates most of the volume on the keel line and thus have little additional bouyancy when you have pushed it far enough to overpower this keel line bouyancy. The nacra 17 hulls are based on an entirely different concept. They actually have alot of reserved bouyancy and relatively narrow keel lines. This is also the cause of other differences I believe; like the very accute steering on the F16's and the preference to be footed rather then pointed.

One trick for newbies is to actually go about it the other way around. Instead of getting out more (trapping to the rear) one can go in more and thus force the boat to heel before it passes the threshold. Then you steer to avoid heeling and at the same time avoid passing the dive threshold. It will be slower overall but you don't capsize too easily. Of course the first rule to winning a race is to not capsize.

Wouter
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Day two pictures can be seen here ! - 03/14/08 10:17 AM

Quote

What I find in capsizing under spi (pitchpoling) is that I'm not aggressive enough heating it up ...



Funny, you say that. When asked I always reply that a (F16) skipper should already be bearing off BEFORE the gust hits and heading up again BEFORE the gust ends. You have to be 1 or 2 seconds ahead in time; but still be smooth about it (S-curves).

So yes "agressive" as in be quick to start your action but not in the way you execute it.

I also believe F16's are much like landyachts in this respect. Pressure and speed are everything. Losing either can get you into trouble. Having speed can get you out of it. How, well try this once. When you have ample speed under spi, lift your lift hull gentle and then bare off hard while still having alot of boat speed. What happens then ? On my boat the bows stay out but the luff hull slams down. I think that I'm using that momentum to surpress the hull during the onslaught of a gust and then have my new lower course handle the main body of the gust. I then use the opposite momentum to head-up in the gust when it is starting to wind down and have my new higher course handle the lull. I find that if you can perfect this then you can drive the boat hard, fast and deep. Currently I can personally only do that when sitting or hiking out. On landyachts you actually use this cornering (centrifugal force) to keep your car from tipping over. I do that relatively often so maybe I learned it there. Come to think of it, I first learned in on the 49-er skiff as you absolutely need that trick there (even upwind) or be over all the time.

So indeed, as you say, you got to hunt that apparent wind fully (aggressively ?).

Wouter
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Day two pictures can be seen here ! - 03/14/08 10:30 AM

This is the zen of downwind sailing under spi <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Go out there, close your eyes, and keep that hull flying at an even height. After a while, you dont need to think about it, you "feel" the force in the gusts. Then you can get your head out of the boat. Ref: the 'jib sliver' thread.
Feel the force, submit to the force and use the force, to paraphrase a bit <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Day two pictures can be seen here ! - 03/14/08 10:31 AM


Quote

They're running downwind, so the gust hit the F17's first



Ahhh, not necesserily !

There are exceptions !

Apparent wind boat guys ?

If they are driving faster then the windspeed then the leading boat overtake the gust first.

Also a gust doesn't have to be equal of the full front of the wind. Gusts are macro turbulance if they are violant. Full front gusts are typically more gentle in the upswing and downswing. The leading boats can have been on the edge of such a spiral/vortex with the others being in the calm centre or further on the outside.

Also gusts can be caused by tall objects locally increasing windspeed that is stationary in speed relative to its location but will appear like a gust to an object moving into its path. Tall buildings and even the edges of the windmill park will cause such effects.

Thermodynamic laws of nature make wind flow AROUND objects more then flow OVER them, just like water would in a stream. At my formerly club we had a modest depression in the dunes on shore, not even that much, maybe 20 mtr and there would always be a wind channel right in front of it.

In the picture they appear to be close to shore with relatively tall buildings. Could it be that the front boats just sailed into a wind channel without preparing for it ?

Wouter
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Day two pictures can be seen here ! - 03/14/08 10:37 AM



Exactly Rolf,

Sometimes I do catch myself staring at the leeward hull sidestay putting for long periods of time when under spinnaker. I always reprimant myself for it because you also have to look out for other boats and changing conditions around you, but still ...

It is exactly one of the best times for me on the F16. Boat being an extension of the arm etc.

The only thing to be careful about is the possibility of having two gust superimposed on eachother with the first arrive just ahead of the second. I sense the curvature of the first and steer to it but often fail to sense the second. It is most hard when the second hits on the downturn of the first without the first having completed its downslope. I'm heading up at that time riding the downslope when you actual want to stay low or bear off more for the second gust coming.

But I'm getting better at that as well !

Indeed, it feels alot like Zen meditation ! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Feel the wind Grasshopper !

Wouter
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: Day two pictures can be seen here ! - 03/14/08 11:14 AM

[Linked Image]
Something I missed in Wouter's post was the effect caused by waves/chop.
In flat water flying a hull under spin at a constant angle is pretty easy but with waves and bad chop it is a different story, even harder to do when the wind is up.
I haven't sailed an F16 but imagine that with its short waterline you either have to get the weight back as far as humanly possible (get a chicken wire for that), or keep both hulls in the water for most of the time.

Attached picture 138114-DarthVader.jpg
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Day two pictures can be seen here ! - 03/14/08 11:31 AM

Quote

I haven't sailed an F16 but imagine that with its short waterline you either have to get the weight back as far as humanly possible (get a chicken wire for that), or keep both hulls in the water for most of the time.



Waves have a ritme to them as well, just like the gusts. You steer S-curves to handle the wind and another set of S-curves for the waves. These two as superimposed on eachother.

I do typically sit far back on the boat, against the rearbeam, but I never have two hulls in the water unless light winds force me to.

I don't use a chicken line and I don't have a footstrap. I sit on the luff hull and hike out using the footbands on the trampoline. In that position I can throw the tiller extension behind the boat and just lay my hand on the rudder tiller extension and steer by pressure it excerts on the palm of my hand. When need be I can let go of the tiller and use two hands for sheeting the spi or adjusting the mainsail.

Basically the same as you can see Terry back do here only difference is that Terry is holding onto the tiller bar where I (again) only lay my hand on the tiller arm that is part of the rudder stock itself and often hang my body out over the side.

[Linked Image]

Wouter
Posted By: Thomm225

Re: Day two pictures can be seen here ! - 03/14/08 11:34 AM

I sure wish you guys wouldn't analyze so much. You try to drive the boat downwind like you do upwind in a matter of speaking. Don't turn down BEFORE, but during or AS the puff is hitting for MAX speed. Just like you either head into a puff upwind or ease the sheet(if necessary) for a smooth ride. Same downwind, definitely ease the spin sheet if you can't stir through it. Another point on trapping out, what do you think is going to happen if while trapping out singlehand you stuff the bows(during a buoy race)?? You are going to be flying on the trapeze to the front of the boat and then you will be entering the water with the mast coming down on your head.

Once you guys start driving those F16's one up properly, I'm thinking you are going to go ballistic downwind especially in smooth water.
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Day two pictures can be seen here ! - 03/14/08 11:51 AM

Ehh Thomm,

I know the common perception of outsiders is that all F16's sailros are just imaginairy wannabees but there are actually a couple of us who have been trapping under spinnaker for a number of years now. Simon and Gary being to obvious examples. Simon even doing it on his Nacra 17 before he switch over to F16's. Now I'm not one of them but I'm also not discarding what seems to work well for them. Gary has beaten Greg Goodall over the line on quite a few seperate occasions ! That is a hell lot more then you and I and the majority of US Nacra 17 sailors are able to do when either sitting in or trapping out. If guys like Gary say that it works for them then I believe them.

We can also turn this around you know; maybe you Nacra 17 guys need to sail properly !

Here is Gary leading two F18's for I believe a line honours or 2nd place over the line :

[Linked Image]


Here from another angle ;

[Linked Image]


This guy is not "analysing" it but actually doing it with impressive results.

Wouter

Attached picture 138118-Blade_F16_aussie_Gary_under_spinnaker_trapping_in_race_122733-gary3.jpg
Posted By: Thomm225

Re: Day two pictures can be seen here ! - 03/14/08 11:59 AM

Try not to take things so personnally Wouter, I'm simply giving my opinion from the experience that I have gained while sailing. I'm not talking world class sailors, I'm talking mainly to your boys at Midwinters and folks like that. Just trying to save them a little time in taking the next step.

I mean some of the best sailors I know of were like 40th in the A-cat Worlds so I don't claim to wanna argue with the guy in 10th or even the one in 30th position. I'm talking weekend warrior here. For better advice, don't piss off the experts like you have sometimes done in the past!!

I mean your boys are stuffing their bows two up for goodness sake, and you are wanting them to trap out singlehand?! Like I have said before, you have to learn before you can learn.

Tom
Keyboard Sailor Extrordinaire
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Day two pictures can be seen here ! - 03/14/08 12:06 PM



Quote

...I'm simply giving my opinion from the experience that I have gained while sailing. ...



And what exactly do you think we are doing ?

Wouter
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Day two pictures can be seen here ! - 03/14/08 12:07 PM

Tom,

analyzis is neccesary to learn, isn't it? That is part of the reason why we are on this forum?
What you are saying is the same as I have been trying to say, but everybody have to go out on the water and spend time to get the feel and timing for it.

Stuffing the bows is slow anyway. But if the ride is just too wild for your skill, you have to adapt to it. From the pitchpoles we have done under spi it is worse to sit in and hit boards, mast, wires etc. compared to hitting just the water. I have the scars to prove it <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> If the difference is going swimming or saving it, sitting in is the best way of course. If you can drive the boat from the trapeeze and it is faster. Well..
Limitations and skills are individual so what is fast for you might not be fast for me, and the other way around. "Properly" is a definition which will change from event to event, day to day and over time.
Why dont you describe in detail what you mean by "properly" downwind driving technique for everybody to study? Both we F16 diehards and the I17 sailors would benefit from that.
Posted By: Thomm225

Re: Day two pictures can be seen here ! - 03/14/08 12:12 PM

Rolf,

Yes! (concerning analysis) I was kinda talking to Wouter with his super long engineering type rants. Hey Wouter, maybe you should move to Pensacola, Ft Walton Beach (or even Crestview!!) so you can spend more time on the water with your buddies over here and less time at the keyboard. I have an excuse. No boat at the moment. By the way, does anyone know where I might buy a used catamaran trailer that would hold a boat say 17' 9" long?

Tom
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Day two pictures can be seen here ! - 03/14/08 12:13 PM

Thomm,

Why don't you just learn to bloody read what is written, not what you think is written !

Quote

I mean your boys are stuffing their bows two up from goodness sake, and you are wanting them to trap out singlehand?! Like I have said before, you have to learn before you can learn.



I never said that, nor did any of the others.

Alot of us ARE saying that any 2-up crew should really trap downwind.

With respect to 1-up sailing there appear to be two modes that work for different personalities/setups. The choice to go with which is up to the individual sailor.

In fact you are the one claiming everybody should go for one mode (sitting in) because some guys in Michigan sailing another type of boat are doing that.

You're the one explicitely suggesting people to start sailing properly.

And please remind me again why you spending so much time on the F16 forum ?

Wouter
Posted By: Thomm225

Re: Day two pictures can be seen here ! - 03/14/08 12:16 PM

I usually speed read (ala Evelyn Woods)your long rants W, so I may have missed something............which by the way I know that you are guilty of also(not reading well)

Tom
Posted By: Thomm225

Re: Day two pictures can be seen here ! - 03/14/08 12:18 PM

Quote
Thomm,

Why don't you just learn to bloody read what is written, not what you think is written !

Quote

I mean your boys are stuffing their bows two up from goodness sake, and you are wanting them to trap out singlehand?! Like I have said before, you have to learn before you can learn.



I never said that, nor did any of the others.

Alot of us ARE saying that any 2-up crew should really trap downwind.

With respect to 1-up sailing there appear to be two modes that work for different personalities/setups. The choice to go with which is up to the individual sailor.

In fact you are the one claiming everybody should go for one mode (sitting in) because some guys in Michigan sailing another type of boat are doing that.

And please remind me again why you spending so much time on the F16 forum ?

Wouter


I believe Rolf asked about what the I17 guys did. That's how I got involved, and it went from there with PTP's informative posts! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Day two pictures can be seen here ! - 03/14/08 12:19 PM

Tom, you guys managed to write two posts while I only managed one, so my message came out of sync with yours. I am buzzing off now as the discussion on downwind technique seem to be over and heading "somewhere else" <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

If you feel up to it, I and others here are always interested in studying experiences and opinions on technique. Hint hint..
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Day two pictures can be seen here ! - 03/14/08 12:50 PM


Well then just tell us how you did it and what works for you; but leave the "Once you guys start driving those F16's one up properly, I'm thinking you ..." parts out.

Then we are all happy and we'll all value your input.

Wouter
Posted By: PTP

Re: Day two pictures can be seen here ! - 03/14/08 01:02 PM

Quote

I mean your boys are stuffing their bows two up for goodness sake, and you are wanting them to trap out singlehand?! Like I have said before, you have to learn before you can learn.

Tom
Keyboard Sailor Extrordinaire


I have been spending way too much time on here!

Thom, ya gotta sail one of these boats to understand what I am talking about downwind. Same thing for what others are saying. There are similarities obviously between the 16 and 17, just like there are similarities between an 18 and 20, but you can't say they behave exaclty the same downwind in terms of the way the bows behave with chop/wind/puffs. That, I guess, would be my point about how I try to drive downwind on the wire. I appreciate your input (seriously) but there are differences that are real. Also, you are sounding a little condescending about it too. I, for one, am always looking for input- especially from someone with more experience who has really seen me sail though. Fine line I guess
Posted By: Timbo

Re: Day two pictures can be seen here ! - 03/14/08 01:28 PM

What works on a Nacra 17 doesn't always work on a boat that is lighter, nearly 2' shorter and has very fine bows, compared to the huge bows of the 17. The same things happened when the Bimare Jav2 came to the USA and a bunch of Inter 20 sailors got on it and tried to drive it like an Inter 20, they ended up calling it, "The Yellow Submarine" because when you put people on the wire going downwind, and a puff comes along, and you bear off hard, you will drive it under up to the mast, easily, -very easily- compared to the Inter 20.

The Blade is not the same as an F17 and the same techinques do not work on both boats. The Blade behaves more like the Jav 2 (ask Andi Lutz, he has sailed both) and the Nacra 17 is more like the I 20. So figure out your own boat, that's what's going to make you faster. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: PTP

Re: Day two pictures can be seen here ! - 03/14/08 01:34 PM

Quote
The Blade behaves more like the Jav 2


me too, and they are fairly similar in terms of the need to stay back on the boat. Like I said, maybe the blade would behave like the 17r if it weighed 120 pounds more and had an extra couple of feet.
Posted By: Thomm225

Re: Day two pictures can be seen here ! - 03/14/08 01:45 PM

Well, I certainly don't mean to sound condescending about it. I personally managed to pitchpole a NACRA 6.0 downwind without spinnaker during Midwinters '98! I also tried to take out the Bob Sykes Bridge with the same boat. I know the 6.0's are tough but that was asking a bit much.....

Maybe I should have said " when you get more experience " rather than " learn to sail properly." That may have gone down a little better. The thing I was trying to get across though without sounding one way or another is that the smoother you are on the tiller the better. The more knowledge you have sailing in the particular conditions the better. That's why some of these guys with tons of time on the water don't get too involved in these conversations. They have already been through all this stuff when they went from say Hobie 16's to NACRA 6.0's with spinnaker(or whatever the order was back in the day). I think I saw a NACRA 5.5 with jib and spin also during RTI 1995. I was watching as they finished that race from a bar in Ft. Walton beach as they passed around 5:30 - 6:00 pm. It was awesome. Close by the spin group was a Hobie 20 sloop, no spin. Talk about experience.

Tom
Posted By: bobcat

Re: Day two pictures can be seen here ! - 03/14/08 02:41 PM

Quote
Quote
[Linked Image]

What happened to that rule about keeping your main sheeted in tight when under spin? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

It's easy to talk about someone else but, It looks as if both of them are just running downwind, like with old type spinnakers, not driving as fast as they could. Although if the wind is very strong I'd sometimes do that.


Understood Dermot, but after a previous discussion I had resolved that I needed to overcome the desire to ease the mainsheet while running scared and chicken (deep). Your apparent wind is rotating aft and you are presenting that twisted off roach squarely to the wind (especially after a wave stuff). I was hoping to find out that keeping the main stalled was more effective at reducing the pitching moment.
So travel out yes, ease no.

Just another Northern Sailor.
Posted By: tshan

Re: Day two pictures can be seen here ! - 03/14/08 02:48 PM

Thom/Tom (which do you prefer?).

As one of those guys in the pictures, I appreciate the input and you are spot on with tiller time being the most important ingredient. After every herky-jerkey dive down, I was thinking that "man, I should been more prepared for that.....". I did survive the weekend with no capsizes (2 races and a short sail Sunday AM, big whooop).

As far as trapezing under spi... it will benefit some designs more than others, it depends on the skipper's comfort-factor, it depends on the sea state, etc.... I personally have not done it much in racing because I haven't practiced it much. I wouldn't dare sail an upwind leg without the trapeze, so it makes sense to me to use it downwind (especially on this design) when the conditions merit it. Just gotta practice.

BTW - I am going to the lake today with the kids.
Posted By: Thomm225

Re: Day two pictures can be seen here ! - 03/14/08 03:05 PM

We did have one F17 guy that used to trap downwind with success at Slip to Ship but that would be for a long leg say 9 miles on the same tack(he also had his foot strap in about the same place as the guy in Wouter's post that's trapped out). I would just worry about jibing from the trapeze in short distance buoy races. It's hard to visualize since I haven't been on the boat for a while. I just don't see how you could have that really quick jibe like you can when sailing onboard. Plus, you have more control onboard when in traffic since you have access to the mainsail if you need it.

But, who knows, maybe you'll come up with your own technique.......

Enjoy the lake! We have rain today but possibly 80 degrees tomorrow.



Tom
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Day two pictures can be seen here ! - 03/14/08 04:19 PM

Quote

What works on a Nacra 17 doesn't always work on a boat that is lighter, nearly 2' shorter and has very fine bows, compared to the huge bows of the 17.



I'm only replying about a detail here.

I have never understood were the rumour came from that F16's are nearly 2' shorter then the Nacra 17. This is patently untrue.

The real difference as measured by Texel officials = Nacra 17 - F16 = 5.240 - 5.000 mtr = 0.240 mtr = just less then 10 inches (= 0.254 mtr) = just over 2 inches less then a SINGLE foot. Even when taking the shorter Taipan 4.9 then the Nacra 17 is still less then a single foot longer.

The length difference between both hulls is about the same distance as between your stretched middle finger and the rear part of your wrist nuckle. That is all ! (this measure is also handy for some potent non-verbal communication ! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />)

"nearly 2 feet" is actually more then double that difference.

The real difference between both hulls is in the overall shape, especially bow shape as the difference in length is pretty negligiable.

Wouter
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Day two pictures can be seen here ! - 03/14/08 04:22 PM



Quote

Well, I certainly don't mean to sound condescending about it.



Okay, let forgive and forget about it.

And on with the discussion ! Ohh yeah ! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Wouter
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Day two pictures can be seen here ! - 03/14/08 04:42 PM


Thomm,

You are right on those points.

But we all knew that already. Like everything in sailing it is a trade-off.

Less agility in a gybe but more vmg; in different situations you'll favour different choices.

On my own boat however I always prefer to sit or hike out from the rearbeam and not trapeze. I've done trapezing a few times but you really need a foot strap for that to work and I don't have one. Also my spi is old and full and requires alot of sheet tension that pulls me forward too much to be comfortable on the trapeze.

Wouter
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Day two pictures can be seen here ! - 03/14/08 04:46 PM

Without being an expert in english.. Now you sound condescending <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

To be very serious and speaking generally, we all need to think about how we express our opinions and views. As our class grows more and more people comes to the forum. The forum might be the only contact many have with the class. If we want to make our class (and the forum) attractive, we must try not to offend or make our class look like it is filled with buffoons. Condescending, talking down other classes/boats/sailors etc. reflects poorly on ourself.
This is not directed at any post in this thread, but generally speaking.
Posted By: waynemarlow

Re: Day two pictures can be seen here ! - 03/14/08 05:37 PM

Guys have a look at the following video www.Stealth_F16_promo_video_01.wmv on it you can see just about every permutation of spinnaker runs with 2 on the wire, driver on the wire, single handed out on the wire etc. Both skippers have been trapezing under spinnaker for years and are both way faster under nearly all conditons by being out on the wire. Good video guys showing how it can be done and is now the standard for all in the UK <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Day two pictures can be seen here ! - 03/14/08 05:54 PM

Did you intend to link to: http://www.formula16.org/videos/Stealth_F16_promo_video_01.wmv ??
Posted By: John Williams

Re: Day two pictures can be seen here ! - 03/14/08 06:09 PM

Quote
By the way an alternative is to have the skipper trap out and have the crew with spi sheet sit against the rearbeam. I believe this setup was pioneered by John Casey and John Williams and it worked very well for them.


Totally depends on the conditions - the picture you're basing that upon was a single snapshot of us overstood on the downwind finish. There were times I was on the wire and there were times JC was on the wire - depended upon how much and where we needed the weight to keep the boat under the sails. Mostly, however, as noted several other places, trapping on the F16 on the run did not seem to pay. We enjoyed very deep angles with the boat quite flat for 75% of the runs - this seemed fast.
Posted By: scooby_simon

Re: Day two pictures can be seen here ! - 03/14/08 08:33 PM

I find that when on the wire (up to certain wind strength when things are just happening too quickly) the wire is the place to be.

Two pictures

First pic. Not on the wire. Note how the bow is deeper, but I was crossing a wave; I was further forward. Boat was twitchier.


[Linked Image]

Second pic; same day, same wind but on the wire. Much faster thru the water and much less drama.

[Linked Image]






Attached picture 138202-downhill.jpg
Posted By: Dermot

Re: Day two pictures can be seen here ! - 03/14/08 10:15 PM

Quote
Quote
Quote
[Linked Image]

What happened to that rule about keeping your main sheeted in tight when under spin? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

It's easy to talk about someone else but, It looks as if both of them are just running downwind, like with old type spinnakers, not driving as fast as they could. Although if the wind is very strong I'd sometimes do that.


Understood Dermot, but after a previous discussion I had resolved that I needed to overcome the desire to ease the mainsheet while running scared and chicken (deep). Your apparent wind is rotating aft and you are presenting that twisted off roach squarely to the wind (especially after a wave stuff). I was hoping to find out that keeping the main stalled was more effective at reducing the pitching moment.
So travel out yes, ease no.

Just another Northern Sailor.

The remark about the mainsheet was not mine. I just felt that you could have been driving a bit harder - actually the yellow spinnaker is the worst offender. But then I was not there and it was probably blowing harder than it looks. There have been plenty of times when I have been bearing way off and praying to get to the bottom mark without pitchpoling.
Posted By: tback

Re: Day two pictures can be seen here ! - 03/14/08 10:38 PM

Quote
.... But then I was not there and it was probably blowing harder than it looks. ....


Is it just me, or do photo's not really give a good indication of how large the swells are?
Posted By: Thomm225

Re: Day two pictures can be seen here ! - 03/14/08 10:39 PM

Nice pictures Simon, but it still goes back to steering. You could have just turned a little lower in that picture where you were onboard and it woulda seemed like a walk in the park. It's not even white capping ..............

Tom
Posted By: Dermot

Re: Day two pictures can be seen here ! - 03/14/08 10:57 PM

Quote

Second pic; same day, same wind but on the wire. Much faster thru the water and much less drama.

But probably pointing higher ?
Posted By: scooby_simon

Re: Day two pictures can be seen here ! - 03/14/08 10:58 PM

Quote
Nice pictures Simon, but it still goes back to steering. You could have just turned a little lower in that picture where you were onboard and it woulda seemed like a walk in the park. It's not even white capping ..............

Tom




But it would be slow.

GPS plots suggest I'm doing about 3-5kts faster on the wire and sailing the same course as the apparent goes forward.

I agree, when it's to windy for wiring it's time to go deeper, but I'm hoping to get to the point when I can wire down wind in most racing conditions.

When I was sailing my Inter 17 (EU Spec) wiring was faster over about 10kts compared to the other 17 I was racing against most weekends until I could not control the boat from the wire.

I think the GC will be interesting as some believe woring is fast, some do not - hopefully we'll get an answer!


Edit to add, wind was light, about 12kts.
Posted By: Thomm225

Re: Day two pictures can be seen here ! - 03/14/08 11:08 PM

Well, it would be a little slower and a little lower .........

It kinda all comes back to the same thing. Balancing it out. Long downwind leg with few jibes, go for it. Shorter course, I'm thinking stay on board. And like the guy said earlier, depends on the conditions. I don't think Midwinters woulda been a good place to try trapping out downwind singlehanded. Actually, that is what I have been basing my whole argument on. You shoulda seen how many times the spinnakers were collapsing on the singlehanded boats.

Tom
Posted By: PTP

Re: Day two pictures can be seen here ! - 03/15/08 12:07 AM

Quote
I don't think Midwinters woulda been a good place to try trapping out downwind singlehanded.


I agree, not the best time to try it for the first, second, thrid, fourth.. etc time. But if you could control it, big gains could be made. "go high or go home!"
<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: TeamTeets

Re: Day two pictures can be seen here ! - 03/15/08 02:52 AM

Thanks all for taking the worst sailing form I could muster and post it repeatedly in the forum... That picture is from the last race, and I was beat. Haven't sailed in 7 months... sailed Friday and every race in the series. All I needed for the regatta was a finish.

Let's critique this one instead :-)
[Linked Image]

Attached picture 138235-pme-2008-d1-317.jpg
Posted By: tback

Re: Day two pictures can be seen here ! - 03/15/08 02:55 AM

Mike,

Nice racing against you (when I actually made the START <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />) and enjoyed talking with you at the BBQ dinner. Hopefully, we get more chances to race against each other.

Terry
Posted By: TeamTeets

Re: Day two pictures can be seen here ! - 03/15/08 03:25 AM

Terry, nice racing you too... that wind sure blew the winter cobwebs off for the season. The rest of the year should be easy.
Posted By: Dermot

Re: Day two pictures can be seen here ! - 03/15/08 09:47 AM

Quote
Thanks all for taking the worst sailing form I could muster and post it repeatedly in the forum... That picture is from the last race, and I was beat. Haven't sailed in 7 months... sailed Friday and every race in the series. All I needed for the regatta was a finish.

Sorry about that Mike <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> If the conditions were as bad as everyone is saying, and I was singlehanded, I would have been playing safe and concentrating on getting to the bottom mark upright <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Quote
Let's critique this one instead :-)
[Linked Image]


That's better <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
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