Feeder class for F16

Folks,

at my club there is no program for those who grow out of the Opti. We also loose a lot of the elder kids in the Opti program, pretty much like everywhere else due to different and much debated reasons.
Nationally there is a small 29er class and we have one of those at the club. Nice boat, but hard to sail and no expertise at the club so it has fizzled.

A friend and I was discussing if we could get a program going for those growing out of the Opti. The F16 is a bit potent and hard to right for these kids? Or? What class should we aim for and why? We would like an easy to sail but still challenging doublehander. The "market" is wide open, but since we both are multihull evangelists, we would obviously like it to be a multihull. Options, and why?

We discussed the Dart16X briefly. Good or no good for this application? Ref: http://www.seilvind.no/Dartbreng.pdf

Obviously, if we are to start something, we would probably need to run the program personally for 3-4 years, so it would be a long term comittment both for us and the club. But if this could create the basis for an F-16 class both locally and nationally, hey..

I think you're fighting a loosing battle. Very soon after the Opti most of those kids are going to be consumed by the S-E-X class! So unless you can fit a bra on it, it doesn't matter.

A cat have two hulls, so a large bra is possible <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Seriously, we need something to fill the gap and keep them interested. Sure many get "other" interests and we loose them for a while anyway, but with a fun program we should do better than todays rate at 100%.

To look at other possibilites at the same time, would the F16 or the Dart16X be the better sailing school cat for adults? I have an opinion, but others please.

dude... put the warning stickers on the cats and they will come running!

Rolf, at Changi last weekend I noticed they have a number of Twincat 15s with spinnakers. Maybe an option worth considering.

http://www.2-win.fr/catamaran-twincat15_uk.php

In the UK, apart from the Dart 16/16X the new kid on the block is the Topaz 16S/16CX. Better yet is it's little sister the Topaz 14 and its choice of 4 rigs. With Reg White behind the design it should be a reasonable performer...

Topaz 14 brochure

H-16. Proven rugged design, plenty of thrills and spills. Lots of used boats to keep prices down. Not too big, not too small.

As John says. Reg White was at Datchet last Saturday with a Topaz 14 Extreme and that looked good. Big main, large spi. Get the cheaper rig with dacron main and you can put two kids on this no problemo.

Pete, IMHO A H16 is too powerful for kids out of an opti. Even with the baby^H^H^H^Hrental rig

I am going to go against my friend Pete here and say NO to the H16. Just ain't sexy enough to modern eyes <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

If you truly want it to be a feeder to the F16 then the solution could be as simple as a lighter and smaller rig for the F16. Then you have a true dual purpose family boat.

The Laser and 29er have both done this with success.

What about?
http://www.hobiecat.com/sailing/models_dragoon.html

Maybe the Blade F12? Then I dont know much...
<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I got the 4.3 for my start to the Blade. It has everything you have but boards, just in a smaller scale. and MAN has the spin been a learning curve. Still a lot to learn but it is a HOOT!!! Can't wait and hope to make to you to live near GYC Pete. Once I get a little more job experience I can live and work anywhere.

Doug

Rolf, had the feeling that I hered something about a F12 cat being developed for the kids???? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

My F16 with upsized mosquito rig (square headed mosquito rig only) would hammer with two 50-60kg kids on board. It's along the same lines of an F16 with smaller rig.

Alternative, a mosquito, one or two up...It is being marketed as a "beginner" cat class here in Oz for juniors. Light, relatively cheap...

I thought the F16 was the feeder class??

I'm with you Gato how can a 16 be a feeder for 10-14yr old kids
regards

At the MYC Training has been going on for 20+yrs. We have seen approx 600 kids on the water during this time and to date only approx 4-6 have gone on to become full members and compete in Club racing. Given these statistics we have asked ourselves if training is worthwhile. A Club can't survive without members and training hasn't been the answer. We are really looking into this problem and have found two major issues. 1) All training is geared towards regional and national racing squads. If you don't make the grade then you're basically forgotten about. 2) All training is geared towards singlehanded handed sailing in Opti, Topper and Laser.
These two points in my opinion have put off 99% of all youngsters who have been fortunate enough to experience sailing. The looks and performance of the Opti could be putting off 90% of youngsters as soon as they go on the water. As a Club we have been looking to ditch the Opti for the more modern Bic but this is not likely to happen due to bureaucracy. We are also intending to purchase RS Feva's in order to promote more 2up sailing opportunities.
Unfortunately the UK trait of dismissing cats as an inadequate means of sailing is still fairly rife amongst some of our members, most of which who are involved with training and is probably due to being brainwashed by the RYA from such an early age!!! But a part from this small group the Club is really coming to terms with Cat sailing and racing to the extent that this year we are hosting the F16 Worlds, A Class Nationals in June and Tornado Nationals in Sept.
This wouldn't have been entertained less then 5 yrs ago so you never know maybe in the next 5 yrs we might be asking your advice on what the best small cat is for training. Good luck with the training programme and please let us know which cat you choose.

Mark,

I wrote something about this in another thread. The problem with racing is that there can be only one winner, and is eliteist in nature. To keep the kids and youth interested we need something more. I remember from my own youth that tension was very high when we competed, but games, training and the social aspect was fun. There is more to it, like having organizers/coaches who are dedicated to what they are doing, structure, follow-up etc but making it fun is what we would focus on.
If this is going to happen "we" would take responsibility of the clubs youth program for the next 3-4 years. Recruiting, training, social happenings, keeping it going through winter etc etc. My goal would obviously be to 1: Get more youth into sailing for the sake of sailing. 2: Grow interest in the F16


About boats.
As F16s are rare on the used market, that route seems closed. Same for Mosquitos with a tuned down rig etc. The boats just dont exist here.
The Hobie16 seem a bit high powered, and might be a competitor to the F16 creating strife in the future. There are used boats on the market which is good for the economy.
Topaz sounds good. As does the Dart, both being rotomoulded.


Gato,
the F12 is not available yet. I dont think I want to build the boats for this but rather have the club finance them. Personally, I also want to see a spi on the boats with the opportunity for an adult to also go out with a kid. I am not really clear on where the F12 is going. Youth or kids (where the oppie is today)
I asked for opinions, and I sure got what I asked for <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
If this goes anywhere, I'll let you know.

Its a tricky one

at our club we sail A class, Stealth , Hurricane 5.9sx , Tornado olympic Sport ,Darts in all guises, we have run high performance cat regattas attracting the rest too , F16 , spitfires, f18s etc , and youngsters are not interested in cat sailing , think they are boring and for OLD farts with dull banter I'm afraid to say , they can be tempted to crew now and again , but look for rewards . Loch Ness race still attracts their attention though because it makes your balls grow <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
My sons moved from toppers to 29er youngest at only 12 and the helm, when you see kids flying about at hyper speed in these relatively (to cats and other monos ) very wobbly boats there would be no comparison , they quickly out grew the 29er after mastering it (they got too big !) , now sail 4000's want a 49er , foiling 600's or any other hp skiff they could get their paws on

When I was young cats were miles ahead in performance and glitz and quite rare , things to aspire too , the array of modern hp monos weren't about then .

Exspense of cats left them for later life .

Whilst cat sailors think they are cutting a dash on the edge of life compared to the younsters antics on skiffs its a bit pedestrian and safe for them ! and lets face it if we are to be honest we know its a LOT easier to sail a cat in any conditions when you know how .

only hope previously of getting young kids into cats was for olympic aspirations , but thats bin feked now ,

Still I hear theres some young uk cat sailors out sailing VX40s as we speak with alingi so theres hope there.

as cats sailing profile grows slowly and a cheap supply of HP cats filter down there will inevitabably some youth pickup .

It amazes me how much effort Hobie Europe has put into finding the right boat to find a small cat market. Each new design cost a fortune in research and tooling to bring a finished product to market. Whether you like Hobie or not, just look at the lineup of boats on this page. I'd love to try them all! And I wish I was a 10 year old Hobie test sailor!

For a 12 foot spin boat check out the Hobie Advance.

Hobie Europe product page

I can see where you are coming from, but we would not recruit only from those coming out of the opti program. We would specifically try to hook those who did not make the soccer team, handball team or whatever. They dont have the same cultural blinders many others have and just need some gentle nudging to really get into the sport. I dont think recruiting would be a big problem. At least that is my experience from other sports and from training a replacement crew on our Tornado. He get into the T at age 15, and loved the boat and the experience.
It is very true that cats are easier to control than skiffs, which makes them perfect for recruiting, training and fun. If they decide to get into a 29er, 49er, foiling moth or whatever and seriously race instead of an F16 after the "program".. Great! If they come to the F16, perfect! Either way the club and the sport wins and they know what cats are about.

How many F12 do you want, when and what are you ready to pay.
I am investing all my freetime for the moment in the F12 and I don't think I am the only one.
Btw. start to consider going back to mono and sell my Blade.

We would need three boats to begin with, then add more if we have success. Price, about the same as the Topaz or Dart. NOK76000 is a number I have heard mentioned. Not sure if a ply F12 is the way to go with this project though.
The F12 work you are doing, actually implementing a boat instead of just talking about it, is brilliant!

Why do you consider selling the Blade and going back to monos, or is that better discussed in private? Loosing you would be a real loss!

NOOO!
Life is too short to sail monos

Rolf, if you're serious about the Topaz 14, give Rob White a call. He's very keen to get some boats out and being seen. PM me if you want his contact info.

John,

have to sell the idea to the board etc. etc first. Just on the idea stage for now, that is why I posted here in the first place. We are having a meeting in april to try and hammer out a strategy.

Rolf,

I'll sell you five fully rigged roto-moulded DS12s for NOK20,000 each (plus shipping). However, I need to wait until we get a couple on the water before committing to a mould. JeffS got a head start but I believe Gato has passed him on the outside. The plywood DS12s have a layer of glass over the outside and two layers on the bottom to help them withstand inexperienced drivers.

It seems like it would be possible to sell the ply DS12 for something around 2500-3000 euros, ready to sail woerk included.
As it looks now it should take no more than 40 hours to put one together.

I still remember being rediculed by the Aussies for believing and stating that a F12 could be build ready to sail for less then 100 hours. Same for price.

I guess I'll receive an appology from them soon.

Wouter

Well, in normal homebuilding mode it will take 150-200 hours. Stil, the DS12 is very easy and fast to build, hope it will be as fast on the water <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

If it is light enough then it will beat the laser dinghy hands down when rigged with the same sail area, that is quite impressive. It is afterall a small boat and of equal length to the laser.

Personally I believe the F12's (DS12's) are going to be a hoot, especially when there are a few around. Just like go-karting. Small, agile, quick to rig, easy to master and heaps of fun even on small waters.

I love youe building gallery, Gato !

Wouter

I will put the hull on the scales next week, but I have the feeling the final result will be on the mark or under.