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F16 Blade in Texel dutch Open (Geert and Raymond)

Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

F16 Blade in Texel dutch Open (Geert and Raymond) - 06/05/08 08:37 PM

Ref: http://rotdominoserver.ti.mon3aan.nl/IIS/finishlists/tdo2008/index.htm

We have an F16 Blade in the Texel Open (the Rounde Texel race is this weekend). Is Geert and Raymond the first ones? Sure hope they intend to race around the island as well.

Photos and film available at: http://www.roundtexel.com/medialib/index.asp
Posted By: Marcus F16

Re: F16 Blade in Texel dutch Open (Geert and Raymond) - 06/05/08 10:54 PM

Rolf,

Will they have live streaming again this year.?
Posted By: taipanfc

Re: F16 Blade in Texel dutch Open (Geert and Raymond) - 06/06/08 03:37 AM

Any other of our illustrious Dutch F16 sailors attending their country's biggest cat event/regatta? It is in their backyard so shouldn't be any excuse.
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: F16 Blade in Texel dutch Open (Geert and Raymo - 06/06/08 04:40 AM

I dont know Marcus, but I would think and hope so.
Posted By: Marcus F16

Re: F16 Blade in Texel dutch Open (Geert and Raymond) - 06/06/08 06:49 AM

Apparently its quiet an expensive exercise even for the locals, as you have to go across on a ferry to the event & the entry fee is not cheap?

Love to do the event one day. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: taipanfc

Re: F16 Blade in Texel dutch Open (Geert and Raymond) - 06/06/08 07:37 AM

Quite expensive but the biggest cat regatta!? Normally the 2 don't mix.

But do plan to get there one day and sail Texel in the next few yrs.
Posted By: Marcus F16

Re: F16 Blade in Texel dutch Open (Geert and Raymond) - 06/06/08 12:05 PM

I see Geert has done a couple of the races, maybe he can share his experience & advise what the logistics are like getting there.?
Posted By: scooby_simon

Re: F16 Blade in Texel dutch Open (Geert and Raymond) - 06/06/08 07:53 PM

Been to Texel for a Euro's once; the ferry can be a pain, yes it's not cheap. year we went we got 10 mins sailing as it blew old boots for the entire week. Sailed off the beach; broker rudder - end of regatta!

Rounde Om Texel was cancelled as it was blowing F6-7 onshore. First time it was ever cancelled....

:-(
Posted By: arievd

Re: F16 Blade in Texel dutch Open (Geert and Raymond) - 06/07/08 01:12 PM

Looks like they finished 140th (corrected, 500 boats)
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: F16 Blade in Texel dutch Open (Geert and Raymo - 06/08/08 10:41 AM

At the start I saw a uni Viper as well, dont know how well he sailed though as the results seem to be down.

It is an expensive race but if you consider you get 4 days of racing for €110 entry fee and €70 ferry costs IMHO it is not too bad (especially when you go camping to keep cost down, and take full advantage of the Hobiecat BBQ which has free drinks! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ).

This was the fifth time I did the race (first time crewing) we finished 95th overall which was not too bad, it could have been a bit better if we stuck to the coast on the spinnaker leg (50% of the course).

The "problem" we and a lot of other cats had with the Dutch Open was that the (sloop)M20s where so ridiculously fast that when they closed the finish after 20 minutes nearly half the (F18) fleet was still sailing.

Another thing I noticed was that the new rig Nacra 17 was quite competitive sailing 2-up (very light Aussie crew though).

There was also an A-Cat with spi being sailed by Remco Kenbeek (overall winner 2006) but dont know how well he did.

Thats it for the debriefing. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: F16 Blade in Texel dutch Open (Geert and Raymo - 06/08/08 12:14 PM

Sounds like a good time Tony! Even if I am not one for large and congested events, Texel is one of the few events I really want to do.
Posted By: Wouter

Re: F16 Blade in Texel dutch Open (Geert and Raymo - 06/08/08 12:42 PM


Quote

Another thing I noticed was that the new rig Nacra 17 was quite competitive sailing 2-up (very light Aussie crew though).



And it should be as it is resembling the F16's more and more. The F17 has an alu wingmast now that came of the Infusion F18 which stole the idea from the capricorn F18 which in turn was inspired by the Taipan Superwing mast that we all have on our alu masted F16's. Of course the Superwing is a refinement of the Sori A-cat mast.

Also the F17 is now more and more sailed as a sloop apparently. And the F17 has shed some 20 kg weight lately and had an updated sail design. The only difference between it and the F16 now is the mast length (+0.5 mtr), hull length (+0.20 mtr) and the weight (+25 kg). In itself these differences are quite small overall and hence the handicap is only a few points slower then the F16.

To me this all proofs that the lightweight short hulled alu masted sloop design with a modern cut suit of sails is a winner ! A concept pioneered in the F16 class !

Wouter
Posted By: Aido

Re: F16 Blade in Texel dutch Open (Geert and Raymo - 06/08/08 03:02 PM

Thanks for that Wouter.....So where did you finish? The texel website is fairly slow at the moment and i cant check out the results.
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: F16 Blade in Texel dutch Open (Geert and Raymo - 06/08/08 03:32 PM

For somebody refusing to share who and where they are, you sure have a spiked tounge "Sue". Before going after one of the oldest members of the class, it would be good form to contribute to the class and share who you are.
Posted By: Stewart

Re: F16 Blade in Texel dutch Open (Geert and Raymo - 06/08/08 03:36 PM

Sue, give credit where credit is due..

Those who struggled to develop the concept of the F16 did a fantastic job.. The concept has shown itself to be sound and well thought out.. Wouter isnt the greatest sailor on the planet but it was his dedication and stubbornness that held us together in the early days..
Posted By: macca

Re: F16 Blade in Texel dutch Open (Geert and Raymo - 06/08/08 04:16 PM

I think its great that Wouter has just thrown some numbers into his post without any verification whatsoever. Where is the science?

If the F17 has lost 20kgs in weight then it must be missing something (like 4 feet of hull length?) because the laminate has not changed nor has the core so the 20kg must be coming from somewhere!! Maybe the hulls are filled with helium...

Also great to see Wouter taking credit for a manufacturers own development path..?? I think you will find that F16 had nothing to do with the F17 development and its clearly linked to F18.

Oh and by the way the Infusion mast is vastly different to the Capricorn section, but I can understand how it could be mistaken for the same thing... both are long extrusions of alloy...
Posted By: Stewart

Re: F16 Blade in Texel dutch Open (Geert and Raymo - 06/08/08 04:33 PM

I was actually discussing the F16.. I did not comment on the F17...

As for the F17 I don't know the weight nor did I say I did.. But if its true.. It could also mean that Nacra has finally figured out how to build a cat properly. Then it could still be false in which case they haven't progressed since 1972..

Also read what Wouter said.. Sori A mast went to Superwing to Capricorn to Infusion to F17.. Or are you saying that Nacra never looked at either the other masts out there and thought how can we improve?

Whatever.. fact is Wouter held the F16 class together in the early days..
Posted By: scooby_simon

Re: F16 Blade in Texel dutch Open (Geert and Raymo - 06/08/08 05:04 PM

Quote
Thanks for that Wouter.....So where did you finish? The texel website is fairly slow at the moment and i cant check out the results.


Sue, have you got a crappy Internet connection maybe? I've been getting very variable performance from my ISP .......
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: F16 Blade in Texel dutch Open (Geert and Raymo - 06/08/08 05:35 PM

Just exactly how does boat weight affect performance?
The Polish Exploder F18 team's boat weighed in at 198.5(!) KG. If a Tiger or Infusion weighed that much you
would probably ask your money back, yet they where very competitive and finished 16th overall (IMHO it was also a very ugly boat making it even more remarkable <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> ).

It is still strange that so little F16s show up, every year it is only Geert.
There must be more boats in the neighboring countries that are able to make the trip?
(Correction: There where also 2 Viper's at pos 116 & 338).
Posted By: macca

Re: F16 Blade in Texel dutch Open (Geert and Raymo - 06/08/08 05:48 PM

Weight is a big factor in performance, and the Exploder things were total rubish! We were in front of most of them!!

Texel is the biggest cat race in the world and if F16 wants to be taken seriously then maybe the class should make the effort to get there and make an impression on the market.
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: F16 Blade in Texel dutch Open (Geert and Raymo - 06/08/08 05:58 PM

Macca: what was your combined crew weight? IIRC the guys on the Polish cat where very light.
What route did you take around the island?
Posted By: Wouter

Re: F16 Blade in Texel dutch Open (Geert and Raymo - 06/08/08 06:41 PM


Quote

Texel is the biggest cat race in the world and if F16 wants to be taken seriously then maybe the class should make the effort to get there and make an impression on the market.



No, we really don't.

One of the best things about the F16 class is the independent mindset of its members and the class board. The fact that we can afford to be that way, surely says something. We've always done things differently and this is no exception. When members feel the desire to do Texel then perfect, the more power to them, but the class is not going to force this on members/sailors/agents.

Also we don't "want to be taken seriously", we ARE to be "taken seriously" !

There is a difference there. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Wouter
Posted By: Wouter

Re: F16 Blade in Texel dutch Open (Geert and Raymo - 06/08/08 06:52 PM

Quote

Oh and by the way the Infusion mast is vastly different to the Capricorn section, but I can understand how it could be mistaken for the same thing... both are long extrusions of alloy...



It is a copy without being a direct copy of the Capricorn mast. Nacra didn't do any research or pioneering in the area of wingmast. They waited to see how the Capricorn did with the alu wingmast and when it did well (= world champion) they rushed to get one true wingmast on their F18 themselves.

At least AHPC had put in some 20 years of experience and testing into their wingmasts for it to result in the Cap F18 mast; starting shortly after the Italian Sori mast (Lalo Petrucci) introduced the idea into the cat market. The F16 class of course, recognized the superiority of the wingmast immediately and never made the detour involving teardrop shape masts like some other classes. In fact the F16 class arranged a deal with AHPC in the first year of class existance to have other F16 builders use this section against cost.

Also removing the internal rib from the mast is not a major design step. The benefits of the wingmast are the result of its elliptical leading edge and its width to cord ratio.

With regard to F17 weights; I have my ways of inspecting official measurement certificates. By now you should have noted that I don't make UNSUPPORTED claims; goes against my character ! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Wouter
Posted By: macca

Re: F16 Blade in Texel dutch Open (Geert and Raymo - 06/08/08 09:04 PM

Quote
With regard to F17 weights; I have my ways of inspecting official measurement certificates. By now you should have noted that I don't make UNSUPPORTED claims; goes against my character ! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Wouter


So what does the certificate you have seen say? I can tell you for a fact (recurring theme here) that the F17 has not changed in weight at all. I built the boat in question and know this to be true. I am right now sitting next to the guy who made the sails and we know what we did. You are full of [censored] if you claim otherwise.

You need to get off your little pony and try checking out the real world for a change. Its actually a pretty good place <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Oh and while we are in the real world, how well did the F17 go against the F16 at Texel? proof is in the results hey...

Again, for the record: I think F16 is a great idea but there are some issues that need to be sorted before it really hits the spot. one of those issues is the marketing and market position. Sort those out and you will be a long way to making it work.
Posted By: macca

Re: F16 Blade in Texel dutch Open (Geert and Raymo - 06/08/08 09:09 PM

Quote
Macca: what was your combined crew weight? IIRC the guys on the Polish cat where very light.
What route did you take around the island?


We were bang on 150kg for the race, there were a few Polish Exploders out there, none of which were very well sailed but they did light up a few times (not enough though)

We stood on under kite on Port for a fair while after the VC mark to take advantage of the tide, I took a stb ride back towards the shore to lock in the boats that were to leeward of us. We made good gains there but Gunnar stayed out there longer and made even more. But I was happy not to be too greedy. It was a risky strategy to get so far offshore from the fleet. Once we came back to the fleet we worked the smaller shifts and tried to stay near the front edge of the new pressure that the slower boats were bringing down with them. We made a lot of places keeping in the pressure as it built.

How about you? a lot of boats went to the shore and got hammered...
Posted By: geert

Re: F16 Blade in Texel dutch Open (Geert and Raymo - 06/08/08 10:02 PM

Just back from Texel and now my name in a thread's name; guess I have to reply.
Anyway, the round was not too bad for us. Had a pretty good start, close to the shore and almost free air. Still had my problems with light air upwind, as long as both hulls are in the water (with a bit of chop) we're just a tad slower than most F18's. Have some work to do on that part.
Just noticed that the ones who tacked early to the shore made better progress, the worst decision was to leave our good, clean air position, go to the shore, find out you can’t cross the fleet, and notice the wind is getting betting better on the sea…

Downwind was a bit better, could keep our position more or less and when returning to the Northsea we got an unexpected but very welcome 12-18 knots, upwind. In these conditions the blade is pretty fast so we could get some 20 boats on that part. Very exiting finish lot’s of cats close together and a gusty wind, and everyone tacking quite often to stay close to the shore for the better wind. So at the end place 141 out of 500 starters. Did enjoy it, good weather, light wind, strong wind, current lots of thing to play with.

Some other things noticed; did see the Viper that was at zandvoort, now sailed by Paul Brouwer. Guess he did pretty well downwind, he passed me on that part.

Remco Kenbeek was indeed sailing an Marstrom A-cat, with spi. He put an existing (probably F18) spi on it and went pretty well (37), despite it was his first sail on an A-cat.

As for being expensive, do think the subscription is quite reasonable at 100-110 Euro for a four day event, as Tony pointed out. And there is a lot to be done to get this race organised.
I know one day events here which are at 65 euro’s.
Sure the ferry makes it a bit more expensive. In my case it was 50 Euro’s (did move the mast a bit forward before entering the ferry, makes it a bit cheaper)

You can do your stay the way you like, there are lots of hotels etcetera but also cheap camping’s pretty close to the where it happens.

Geert
Posted By: Wouter

Re: F16 Blade in Texel dutch Open (Geert and Raymo - 06/09/08 12:08 AM

Quote

Oh and while we are in the real world, how well did the F17 go against the F16 at Texel? proof is in the results hey...



Would you care to mention were the other F17's/Inter-17's ended up relative to the F16's ?

Or are we sweping that under the carpet ?

And yes there was more then 1 F16 crew at Texel. The crew of Brouwer and Hof (sailing a Viper F16) beat Ruesink and Haas (on a 2007 Blade F16) to the finish. And a German skipper, who has recently taken delivery of a new Viper F16, was sailing F16 1-up.

Personally, I think Fawcett and Dobie sailed an excellent Texel race to finish at 25th place overall on handicap. Getting 25th place overall is an achievement no matter what boat type is sailed. We note that the line honours winner is (only) 24th on handicap with an upgraded (custom made) line honours boat. Also they tweaked out a win over Sproat/Burke who are typically at the top of the "shorter hull" boats listing of Texel. So my congratulations to them.

As always I feel the credit goes first to the crew and only second to the boat type.

And I don't feel the F16 crews did a bad job at all (see the elapsed time listing below). In comparison they are in the top.

And just to make the picture complete and to show I have no fear of "real life" results I present everybody the elapsed time listing of the modern 16 and 17 footers. The handicapped order is actually very much the same. In total 9 FX-ones, 4 Inter-17's, 3 Spitfires, 3 F16's and an impressive 2 F17's.


-1- Fawcett/Dobie [color:"red"] Nacra F17 [/color] 4:28:41
-2- Sproat/Burke [color:"brown"] Swell Spitfire [/color] 4:28:51
-3- Brouwer/Hof [color:"green"] Viper F16 [/color] 4:45:32
-4- Ruesink/Haas [color:"green"] Blade F16 [/color] 4:50:11
-5- Aart Hobie [color:"purple"] Hobie FX-one [/color] 4:54:04
-6- Houting [color:"purple"] Hobie FX-one [/color] 5:10:40
-7- McDowell/McDowell [color:"brown"] Swell Spitfire [/color] 5:11:44
-8- Smit [color:"purple"] Hobie FX-one [/color] 5:15:32
-9- Areosa/Lima [color:"purple"] Hobie FX-one [/color] 5:16:42
-10- Maat [color:"red"] Nacra F17 [/color] 5:19:08
-11- Nakken/Schagen [color:"brown"] Swell Spitfire [/color] 5:31:08
-12- Brink [color:"purple"] Hobie FX-one [/color] 5:35:31
-13- Carstens [color:"blue"] Nacra Inter 17 [/color] 5:36:09
-14-Brouwer [color:"purple"] Hobie FX-one [/color] 5:36:23
-15- Boomstra [color:"blue"] Nacra Inter 17 [/color] 5:37:36
-16- Duin [color:"purple"] Hobie FX-one [/color] 5:40:51
-17- Dorfner [color:"green"] Viper F16 [/color] 5:43:08
-18- Jong [color:"blue"] Nacra Inter 17 [/color] 5:55:10
-19- Os/Leeuwen [color:"purple"] Hobie FX-one [/color] 5:58:16
-20- Graaf [color:"purple"] Hobie FX-one [/color] 6:09:50
-21- Bergen [color:"blue"] Nacra Inter 17 [/color] 6:17:35


I hope all crews enjoyed themselves alot and I congratulate all on their placings.

Wouter
Posted By: taipanfc

Re: F16 Blade in Texel dutch Open (Geert and Raymo - 06/09/08 02:31 AM

So how did you go Wouter at Texel? You have mentioned recently on this forum that you have won big races in big fleets, so this would have been right in your park then...
Posted By: Stewart

Re: F16 Blade in Texel dutch Open (Geert and Raymo - 06/09/08 02:51 AM

tell me how did you go in the recent Tornado worlds?
Posted By: taipanfc

Re: F16 Blade in Texel dutch Open (Geert and Raymo - 06/09/08 02:57 AM

Quote
tell me how did you go in the recent Tornado worlds?


Ummm, don't sail Tornados. Never even been on one for a race, just tooling around every so often between races etc.

You have mixed me up with one of the other Aussie sailors that Wouter doesn't like. Sail A-Cats and other various sailing vessels, but my results are crap according to Wouter.
Posted By: Tornado_ALIVE

Re: F16 Blade in Texel dutch Open (Geert and Raymo *DELETED* - 06/09/08 04:31 AM

Post deleted by Tornado_ALIVE
Posted By: Tornado_ALIVE

Re: F16 Blade in Texel dutch Open (Geert and Raymo - 06/09/08 05:24 AM

Great result Macca.

27th Scratch and 12th on handicap.

A lot of F18s there and looks like very close racing between them.
Posted By: Tornado_ALIVE

Re: F16 Blade in Texel dutch Open (Geert and Raymo - 06/09/08 07:39 AM

Hey Stewart,

You do not know the circumstances behind the Worlds result. We were lucky to even be on the water (Crew injury) and decided to pack up on the second last day.

The crew / boat owner shipped his boat over to NZ without a skipper. I was heading over to NZ anyway so offered my services. Due to a back injury, he was in no shape to take to the water despite regular physio during the event and being doped up on pain killers, however he persisted for most of it with myself doing most of the work on the boat whilst he struggled to just get in and out on trapeze.

Trapezeing and steering downwind in up to 25 knots amongst a reasonable size fleet was quiet interesting and I would have to say, some of the most enjoyable downwinds I have experienced. Having the tiller cross arm at the leeward end come apart whilst I was on trap heading downwind was also very interesting. Working the main by myself for the 2 events is something I can do without though...... Especially when the mainsheet would not grip in the ratchet.

Very disappointed with how it all unfolded, however better than watching it on shore. I feel more for Stuart who made the trip from the UK only to struggle each day to get out on the water.
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: F16 Blade in Texel dutch Open (Geert and Raymo - 06/09/08 09:29 AM

Quote
How about you? a lot of boats went to the shore and got hammered...

We where a bit heavier at 176KGs <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />
On the first leg to the lighthouse we decided to stay a bit further of the coast than you guys (about 1 NM).
During practice the day before this was the place with the most wind and seemed to pay of as we
overtook quite a few boats who where very close to the beach.

After the VC we went way too far out to sea, this is where we lost a lot.
It would have been wiser to have stayed with the rest of the fleet and put in some more gybes instead.

I see you where using the track-and-trace system:
http://spectator.sport-track.com/spec/start.php?id=4701&raceid=7961
Posted By: Stewart

Re: F16 Blade in Texel dutch Open (Geert and Raymo - 06/09/08 09:50 AM

Actually I was making a point about your comment..

Its easy for someone to make snide comments about sailing ability or lack.. It however doesn't detract from the efforts of Wouter and others in developing the F16 class..
Posted By: Stewart

Re: F16 Blade in Texel dutch Open (Geert and Raymo - 06/09/08 09:55 AM

Umm.. and why is this being posted? I made no comment or innuendo about you or your sailing.. Interesting this medium of communication that allows someone, to believe comments made, were not directed to the one I posted to but to themselves..

But your correct I don't know the circumstances you or others faced in the T worlds... Anyway glad you enjoyed some of the racing...

And now for some meaningless stock market drivel.. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: ClaytonF16

Re: F16 Blade in Texel dutch Open (Geert and Raymo - 06/09/08 10:22 AM

Quote
For somebody refusing to share who and where they are, you sure have a spiked tounge "Sue". Before going after one of the oldest members of the class, it would be good form to contribute to the class and share who you are.


Its Adrian Fawcett..... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: macca

Re: F16 Blade in Texel dutch Open (Geert and Raymo - 06/09/08 04:48 PM

Hey Wouter,

Any news on that mysterious measurement cert that shows the F17 lost 25kgs??
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: F16 Blade in Texel dutch Open (Geert and Raymo - 06/09/08 05:09 PM

Someone at Muiderzand has an (uni)F17 (with the Infusion stick) which he IIRC had weighed at 135KGs.
He does have PBO rigging and a carbon pole so that might make it a bit lighter than the standard version.

Macca: Do you know under which rating they where sailing? I cant find it anywhere and I dont think F17 rig has been added to the TR database.
Posted By: macca

Re: F16 Blade in Texel dutch Open (Geert and Raymo - 06/09/08 05:10 PM

The F17 is a 104.

If you swapped the Wire for PBO then there is about 3kg saved, if you did trap wires too then its a bit more saved.

A Carbon pole is going to be a kilo or 2 lighter but its nowhere near a saving of 25kg...

But Wouter will for sure supply us with irrefutable proof that the F17 has somehow lost 25kgs <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Back to F16 subjects, does anyone know the weights of the boats that competed at Texel? Maybe if they were heavier than the F16 rating they could have got an advantage from re rating under the texel rating?
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: F16 Blade in Texel dutch Open (Geert and Raymo - 06/09/08 05:12 PM

Here is the link to the F17 forum. This discussion has moved off topic for the F16 forum: http://www.catsailor.com/forums/postlist.php?Cat=0&Board=Formula17
Posted By: Wouter

Re: F16 Blade in Texel dutch Open (Geert and Raymo - 06/09/08 09:11 PM


Quote

Back to F16 subjects, does anyone know the weights of the boats that competed at Texel? Maybe if they were heavier than the F16 rating they could have got an advantage from re rating under the texel rating?



Who is looking at handicapped results ? These boats should be compared on elapsed time as the differences between them are too small to really matter. The only exception is the old Nacra Inter 17 design, which is a bloody slow singlehander compared to its modern competitors.


Quote

But Wouter will for sure supply us with irrefutable proof that the F17 has somehow lost 25kgs


With respect of boat weights. The numbers I quoted are well founded and I have measurement numbers on several nacra 17's. However I would love to quote you (as an nacra Europe employee) that no Nacra 17 has ever been build under 150 kg's. Makes promo-ing the F16's alot easier. So I'm not sure what you are campaigning here for; if it is the latter then I'm more then willing to comply ! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Wouter
Posted By: Marcus F16

Re: F16 Blade in Texel dutch Open (Geert and Raymo - 06/10/08 04:27 AM

[Linked Image]

Well Done Geert - I found a picture of you buried at the start!!!....

Attached picture 147765-proc_ngal_larg.jpg
Posted By: macca

Re: F16 Blade in Texel dutch Open (Geert and Raymo - 06/10/08 07:16 AM

Quote

Who is looking at handicapped results ? These boats should be compared on elapsed time as the differences between them are too small to really matter. The only exception is the old Nacra Inter 17 design, which is a bloody slow singlehander compared to its modern competitors.


The differences between the boats you listed are quite considerable, 50kg in boat weight for a start! The texel rating shows a big difference in performance based on the differences in the listed boats so are you now saying that there is no "truth" in the texel system?
Quote


But Wouter will for sure supply us with irrefutable proof that the F17 has somehow lost 25kgs


With respect of boat weights. The numbers I quoted are well founded and I have measurement numbers on several nacra 17's. However I would love to quote you (as an nacra Europe employee) that no Nacra 17 has ever been build under 150 kg's. Makes promo-ing the F16's alot easier. So I'm not sure what you are campaigning here for; if it is the latter then I'm more then willing to comply ! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Wouter [/quote]

Again you have manged to turn a simple question into something totally unrelated.

Where is the measurement certificate for the F17 that is 25kg lighter than a std F17? Just scan it and post it. Simple hey? Until then stop making claims that we all know are wrong. You have done it before and been called out on it so either you're a slow learner or not the sharpest spoon in the drawer....
Posted By: Wouter

Re: F16 Blade in Texel dutch Open (Geert and Raymo - 06/10/08 07:51 AM

I'm not going to send you copy's of measurement forms Macca, and you can spin that every way you want.

Nevertheless the fact of the matter will remain that the data is sound and others like TonyF18 are confirming that the Nacra 17's in their area are being measured as lighter then the acclaimed 150-158kg (www.texelrating.org and www.nacraeurope.com). The only exception are the aging orginal nacra inter 17's that are indeed typically on the heavy side (+150kg).


Quote

... lighter than a [color:"red"] std [/color] F17



There is NO standard F17 !

We have had 7 different Nacra 17 designs over the last 10 years and to put the icing on the cake we note that the US F17 has a different mainsail area then the F17 offered in Europe by www.nacraeurope.com. The difference being respectively 16.45 sq. mtr to 15.25 sq. mtr.; a whole 1.25 sq. mtr !

Hell, The nacra 17 design has had more design changes then all the boats in our TRUE Formula 16 class combined.

But I must admit, the newest iteration of the alu masted nacra 17 footer appears to be alot better boat then the original inter 17 you guys started out with 10 years ago. So at least there is progress.

And I stand by my point that the Nacra 17's appear to be converging to the F16 specifications and that is the source of much amusement on my side.

I mean, how big is the difference between a 15.00 sq. mtr (F16) mainsail and a 15.25 sq.mtr (EU F17) mainsail ? Or between an AHPC alu wingmast and the Infusion alu wingmast ? Between a 17.5 sq. mtr spinnaker (F16) and a 17/19 sq. mtr spinnaker (F17) ? Between a 3.70 sq.mtr selftacking jib (F16) and a 3.45 sq. mtr. selftacking jib (F17). Between a 5.00 mtr long hull (F16) and a 5.23 mtr long hull (F17). Between a class designed and optimized for 1-up/2-up versatility and level racing against the F18's and a class now marketed as a 1-up/2-up versatile boat that is optimized for 110-145 kg crews that are looking for an alternative to the F18 class ? Between the name F16 and the name F17 ?

A copy cat class if ever there was one.

I guess the following two sayings are true.


"Nothing creates contempt like succes"

"Copying is the highest form of flattery"


Yes I think you can say that I'm throroughly enjoying this !

Its the proof that my "useless ivory tower mathematics" of the era 2000-2001 was indeed spot on !

Wouter
Posted By: taipanfc

Re: F16 Blade in Texel dutch Open (Geert and Raymo - 06/10/08 08:20 AM

Quote
And I stand by my point that the Nacra 17's appear to be converging to the F16 specifications and that is the source of much amusement on my side.

I mean, how big is the difference between a 15.00 sq. mtr (F16) mainsail and a 15.25 sq.mtr (EU F17) mainsail ? Or between an AHPC alu wingmast and the Infusion alu wingmast ? Between a 17.5 sq. mtr spinnaker (F16) and a 17/19 sq. mtr spinnaker (F17) ? Between a 3.70 sq.mtr selftacking jib (F16) and a 3.45 sq. mtr. selftacking jib (F17). Between a 5.00 mtr long hull (F16) and a 5.23 mtr long hull (F17). Between a class designed and optimized for 1-up/2-up versatility and level racing against the F18's and a class now marketed as a 1-up/2-up versatile boat that is optimized for 110-145 kg crews that are looking for an alternative to the F18 class ? Between the name F16 and the name F17 ?

A copy cat class if ever there was one.

I guess the following two sayings are true.


"Nothing creates contempt like succes"

"Copying is the highest form of flattery"

Wouter


I thought that the same could be said of the F16 being a scaled down lighter version of the F18. You could compare F18 and F16 numbers the same way to make them look similar. So a case of who is copying who?
Posted By: taipanfc

Re: F16 Blade in Texel dutch Open (Geert and Raymo - 06/10/08 08:22 AM

But Wouter and Macca. You are both in Holland at the moment. The place ain't that big so shouldn't be any excuses for the two of you to meet for too many beers and rums.
Posted By: Wouter

Re: F16 Blade in Texel dutch Open (Geert and Raymo - 06/10/08 08:54 AM


Quote

I thought that the same could be said of the F16 being a scaled down lighter version of the F18. You could compare F18 and F16 numbers the same way to make them look similar. So a case of who is copying who?



Well, actually, such a view can be succesfully defended.

Indeed the F16 setup is heavily inspired by the F18 class; especially the succes they achieved with the Formula setup of their class rules.

For a very long time we even explicetly said so on our official webpages.

Although we all remember the ridicule and disbelieve we reaped when we started out in 2001 with F16 and claimed it to be comparable in performance to the F18's. Many believed that our lightweight and short hulls were a receipy for disaster, both physically and economically. The fact that we claimed that this setup would be equally well suited for competitive 1-up and 2-up sailing (even against one another) was also frowned upon.

Additionally, it is a different kind of skill to build a 107 kg ready to race 2-up spinnaker boat then a 180 kg ready to race 2-up spinnaker boat. So in the first years we had to some researching and build optimalisation ourselves to get down to the specs we desired. Experiences taken from the A-cat class was very helpful here. Interestingly enough, we also recognized the superiority of item like the (true) wingmast before the F18 class did.

So I think we can rightfully claim to have done alot of pioneering work with the F16 class. We had to do alot of proving against commonly encoutered disbelieves. And surprisingly enough we got the concept and specs right almost entirely from the first moment. I think we only entlarged the mainsail form 14.85 to 15.00 sq.mtr and the jib from 3.45 to 3.70 sq. mtr. ; all the other specs have remained unaltered. Some class rules were replace by improved and simplified wording without affecting the specs and that was it.

Also our class rules have rather diverged from the F18 setup rather then converged. We actively fight the pressure to included more and more class rules and to pre-ampt any freedom by stating that everything that is not specifically allowed is disallowed as the F18 has done by opting to register themselves as a "closed ruleset" with ISAF. Of course we have a mix of carbon masts and alu masts, we do allow exotic fibres any part where you may want to use these. In this respect we are actually ahead of the F18 class. Although we still make lots of use of (sail and laminate) optimization that is achieved in the F18 and A-cat classes.

So I think that we can be defined as a class that was heavily inspired by the F18 class but have since then (and from very early on) blasted our own trail and have grown beyond the example set by the F18 class and have broken new ground.

So if indeed we started out as a copy-cat, we have long left this category.

Wouter
Posted By: macca

Re: F16 Blade in Texel dutch Open (Geert and Raymo - 06/10/08 09:56 AM

Wouter,

the changes made the F17 are so it fits the 104 class, And its appears that its been worth it too.

The F17 has just won the French 104 nationals and was also the standout boat in the recent French magazine test.

If someone has the time (and inclination) maybe its worth recalculating the results from Texel using 104 for the vipers handicap (2 up) and then if Geert's boat was heavier than the F16 handicap how about recalculating it with the correct handicap and see how he would have gone?

Oh and if you have technical issues scanning and posting the "light F17" certificate you can just fax it to me and I will do it for you.....
Posted By: macca

Re: F16 Blade in Texel dutch Open (Geert and Raymo - 06/10/08 09:57 AM

Quote
But Wouter and Macca. You are both in Holland at the moment. The place ain't that big so shouldn't be any excuses for the two of you to meet for too many beers and rums.


I keep asking about this mysterious Wouter character when I am ay regattas and not even the locals have seen him... I think he is some kind of phantom <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Never at regattas either...
Posted By: Tornado_ALIVE

Re: F16 Blade in Texel dutch Open (Geert and Raymo - 06/10/08 10:44 AM

Firstly I am a big fan of F16 class, however Wouter the F16 is also a copy cat class, yes as you mentioned. (and there is nothing wrong with that).

The class had a good look at the F18 formula and decided down a similar track. They had a good look at the Taipan 4.9 with regards to it’s flexibility and possibly even the F17 as if I remember correctly, they were offered in one man to two man form (At least in OZ) many years before the F16.

Quote
Additionally, it is a different kind of skill to build a 107 kg ready to race 2-up spinnaker boat then a 180 kg ready to race 2-up spinnaker boat. So in the first years we had to some researching and build optimalisation ourselves to get down to the specs we desired. Experiences taken from the A-cat class was very helpful here. Interestingly enough, we also recognized the superiority of item like the (true) wingmast before the F18 class did.

The F18 class is a much bigger boat, in length, volume, loads and rig size. It’s rules regarding build material also differ from the F16, so it is inaccurate to compare the skill / weights of building the two boats. More accurate to compare the F18 with the F18HT.

The F16 would have mimicked what the A class and Taipan 4.9 had done over many years (no point in re-inventing the wheel)

Quote
we also recognized the superiority of item like the (true) wingmast before the F18 class did.


The F16 class was foundered in 2001. The first wing mast was used in the F18 Worlds in 2001 by the Taipan F18. So, a little inaccurate there mate.

Quote
So I think we can rightfully claim to have done alot of pioneering work with the F16 class. We had to do alot of proving against commonly encountered disbelieves. And surprisingly enough we got the concept and specs right almost entirely from the first moment.


Not too hard to copy the Taipan 4.9 and put a spinnaker on it.... Then look at system developments from Tornadoes and F18s. Hardly pioneering but the right way to go about it.
Posted By: Wouter

Re: F16 Blade in Texel dutch Open (Geert and Raymo - 06/10/08 10:49 AM

Quote

the changes made the F17 are so it fits the 104 class, And its appears that its been worth it too.



No wonder; the F104 is a F16 copy-cat too !

Just add a few kg's to any F16 ... et voila c'est une F104 !



Quote

The F17 has just won the French 104 nationals and was also the standout boat in the recent French magazine test.


Yes, that is what I'm saying. After 7 iterations, each one making the Nacra 17 resemble the F16's more closely, it is finally so close to these that it is starting to float to the top of the leader boards.

Several of us have been saying this for years ! Finally we became fed up with talking to the proverbial wall and having to accept pretty awful designs from the big time builders and thus we went out and created the "F16 class" ourselves. Showing in deeds what the big boys were ignoring.

Honestly Andrew, it is okay to admit to this. There is no shame in it. We ourselves readily admit to learning from other classes like the F18's, A-cats and most importantly the Taipans.



Quote

If someone has the time (and inclination) maybe its worth recalculating the results from Texel using 104 for the vipers handicap (2 up) and then if Geert's boat was heavier than the F16 handicap how about recalculating it with the correct handicap and see how he would have gone?



Why ?

We are not playing the handicap game and we never have. We race the F18's on "first in wins", we race any other design like the F17's on a "first in wins" basis, the same among ourselves (1-up/2-up). We are not some sea lawyer trying to find an advantage in the small print or some handicapping formula.

The elapsed time listing says enough I think; Fawcett/Dobie sailed an excellent race on their 2-up F17 and beat all the competition in their field fair and square.



Quote

Oh and if you have technical issues scanning and posting the "light F17" certificate you can just fax it to me and I will do it for you.....



I think we have a misunderstanding here, there is no reason why I CAN'T send these to you; I just refuse to do so. Plain and simple.

Wouter
Posted By: Wouter

Re: F16 Blade in Texel dutch Open (Geert and Raymo - 06/10/08 11:38 AM



Stephen,

Indeed I readily admit to first looking around to see what works over trying to reinvent the wheel.

Indeed, the F16 class took alot from several other classes and recombined it into a new concept. Again I readily and frequently admit to that.

Personally, I think this is the smartest way to go about it.

Personally, I'm even in favour of having the F16's class hold more events together with other classes like the F17's, FX-ones, Spitfires, etc. I have been vocal about that in the past. The basic reason being that this is the most enjoyable for everyone and again all the sailors can learn from eachother that way. Afterall, what is the real difference between these boats these days ? Even the handicaps (if you want to go down that route) are only a few points apart. An F16 at 101 (under SCHRS) or F104/F17 at 104 (under SCHRS). That is only a minute difference per 45 min. bouy race ?

I don't know, but would an A-cat/F16/F17 invitational at the Gulfport club be something that many would object to for 2009 ?

But this aside. The F16 class did do some pioneering. Afterall the Taipan class was absolutely dead set against any spinnaker addition or sail shape changes. Never did the Taipan class race "first in wins" between their sloops and cat-rigs.

There was indeed an Aussie version of the nacra Inter 17 before F16 was officially launched in 2001; but we (I) didn't use anything off that design. We did witness the launch of the first EU version of the Nacra Inter 17 that introduced a spi for singlehanding to the mainstream cat sailing and we (I) did pick up on that. The modifying the F16 to suit level racing between 1-up and 2-up racing however was only preceeded by the Dart 18 catamarans (1975) where the F16 extended to idea of a modern design with a spinnaker.

With respect to the wingmast. While we started the F16 officially in the spring of 2001 (before the F18 worlds that year), a small group had been on the case for "a better mousetrap" a while before that and even then there was no doubt that the wingmast was the way to go. As far as I know this Taipan F18 was basically a Taipan 5.7 that was modified with the help of a hacksaw and a very thick (heavy) walled mainbeam. Of course the Taipan 5.7 and Taipan 4.9 had featured the wingmast for many years by then. If anything the F16 mast usage is a direct extension of the Taipan 4.9 design, that did indeed inspire a large portion of the basic F16 setup.



Quote

Not too hard to copy the Taipan 4.9 and put a spinnaker on it.... Then look at system developments from Tornadoes and F18s. Hardly pioneering but the right way to go about it.



Well, that is not really the way it was/is. If it had been that simple then there is no reason why the original Nacra Inter-17 should have been a smash hit world wide. Or why the M18 should have been a hot selling boat. Or indeed why the Taipan design itself would have pre-empted to F16 growing beyond the Taipan influence. Think about the Bim 16 too or the French BCM (Boulogne) Energy

All of the named boats (and many more) share some aspects with the F16 setup, but not a single one combined all of the important aspects into one setup and in such a well balanced form. At the time not a single alternative design dared to believe or even claim that such a setup could be rated the same or even close to the F18's; let alone race these directly to the line. No single boat did that and ALSO optimized versatility as defined by 1-up/2-up racing off the same performance. Of course we dared to start an open ruleset formula setup without the backing of any significant catamaran builder. And to top it off we didn't ask ANY membership fees while still growing the class internationally to the point were it is now.

In fact if you look at the whole picture then the F16 history is quite an interesting piece of reading. Indeed we took many things from other classes but in just as many cases we did things differently. One prime example is the fact that the F16 builders produce very lightweight boats for a retail price that sees 150 kg 16 and 17 footers struggle to achieve. Nobody believed we could pull this off, but we believed we could and we have put "the deed to the claim".

But indeed the biggest pioneering we did was fight against the disbelieving judgements that a small boat could be this good and convinced the sailing scene of the contrary. We stood on the shoulders of the Taipan 4.9 class, no doubt about that, but we progressed beyond their example and have indeed broken into new ground.


But having written down this "selfaggrandizement" I still believe that the cat classes and builders of the world should work more together and converge on a limited number of racings groups that serves all of the needs. In my opinion this means that the F16 class and sailors should aim to hook up with similar boat like the Spitfires, Taipans, Nacra 17's, FX-ones and, if it grows, the F104's.

Personally, I think the F104 class is completely redundant. It's class setup is basically a F16 with 25 kg added. The only reason to fix its number to a handicap of 104 is to exclude the F16's. The big boys are up to their old tricks again; creating internal competition that benefits no-one in the long run.

I hear that rumours are being circulated that F16 are fragile boats, but when I'm being asked what I think about the new nacra F17, then I'll say that I think it is a good boat that will give the onwer many years of enjoyment. If a party is looking for a more recreational oriented catamaran comparable to a F16 then I typically refer them to the Nacra 500.

My personal hope for the future is to see all these new 16 and 17 footers converge and work together to reinvigorate the catsailing scene. To attract more young people to the sport and to see all owners have more fun racing eachother on comparable boats.

That and the succesful creation of the F12 class, a real catamaran that is just as easy to rig and transport as a laser dinghy and inexpensive to own and maintain.

Wouter
Posted By: macca

Re: F16 Blade in Texel dutch Open (Geert and Raymo - 06/10/08 11:45 AM

**** all yuou want
Posted By: Wouter

Ask Christa ... - 06/10/08 11:49 AM

Quote

I keep asking about this mysterious Wouter character when I am ay regattas and not even the locals have seen him... I think he is some kind of phantom Never at regattas either...



Ask Christa, I think you see her weekly if not daily.

Also I stood no more then 3 mtr away from you on 17 aug 2007, when you checked us out at the F16 Global Challenge.

But indeed I stopped frequenting regatta's somewhere in 2005. I enjoy sail craft design and recreational sailing more then the hassle of regattas these days.

It is the same with my landyachting. I enjoy taking people along and just have a good time more then the actual races. If you want to do some landyachting Andrew, and you are here in the winter time or even early spring or late autumn then give me a call. Christa knows how to reach me and otherwise Tony Mels does, you know both.

I'm currently running a 5 car landyachting cirquit for enthousiasts and other people interested in giving this a try. Initially free of charge, although I do appreciate some maintaince contribution if people start coming regulary.

Some times you move on to do other things in life, Macca.

Wouter
Posted By: taipanfc

Re: Ask Christa ... - 06/10/08 12:36 PM

So Macca/Wouter, you still doing beers then? Wouter obviously knows what Macca looks like but not vice versa. And you can even show what the cert looks like and not worry about this scanning thingy.
Posted By: Tornado_ALIVE

Re: Ask Christa ... - 06/10/08 12:56 PM

So Wouter..... To sumarize, who really cares how the F16 or other boats came about.... Who copies who. They (Including F16) have copied other boats. The F16 as with the F17 and F18 are good products.

At the end of the day, let's go racing and enjoy them.

Many people think their class of boat is the better class to be in. Each have their own opinion and for each of them, if they enjoy their class... they are right (better class to be in..... For them).

Not everybody shares your veiw that the F16 is the "better class" as you may disagree the F18/104/A Class/H16 etc is the better class.

Quote
"Copying is the highest form of flattery"


PS - I think you are flattering youself more then the boats are flattering each other.
Posted By: Marcus F16

Re: F16 Blade in Texel dutch Open (Geert and Raymo - 06/10/08 01:46 PM

Quote
The F18 class is a much bigger boat, in length, volume, loads and rig size. It’s rules regarding build material also differ from the F16, so it is inaccurate to compare the skill / weights of building the two boats. More accurate to compare the F18 with the F18HT.



Steve,

Not sure i agree with you comments here.

F18 is 10% longer than F16
F18 has say 25% more volume than F16
F18 has 3-4% extra width over F16
F18 has 12% more mainsail area than F16
F18 has 10% more jib sail area than f16
F18 has 20% more spinn sail area than F16
F18 rig loads are thru rig loads only - crew weights are similar.
But they are over 50% heavier. That's comparing 107kg f16 to 180kg F18.

We all know that the manufacturers could build their boats at 165kg if they really wanted to, but profit margins reign.

Our F18 was well overbuilt & was over weight by 3-4 kgs. The new glass ones will be like the capricorn 5-10kgs under & weighted up to the 180kg max.

Marcus
Posted By: phill

Sailing VS Video Games? - 06/10/08 01:50 PM

Steve,
I agree.
We should not be arguing about which boat is better than the next. Far more productive to be aguing that sailing any boat is better than video games or some other activity that is drawing the young away from our sport.

I'd rather be sailing against, or on, any of those boats instead of a Gameboy or X-box.

Regards,
Phill
Posted By: Tornado_ALIVE

Re: F16 Blade in Texel dutch Open (Geert and Raymo - 06/10/08 01:54 PM

Quote
We all know that the manufacturers could build their boats at 165kg if they really wanted to, but profit margins reign.


Hi Marcus

I don't believe it has anything to do with profit margins. The Formula was born from the Hawk and Tiger, both built at 180 kg. Builders today could build them lighter, very easily but they have a sucessfull class going at the moment and would put that at serious risk if they decided to knock 15 to 20kg off them.

The A class also can be built with ease now, down to 70kg..... But the class also does not wish to damage their sucessfull fleet. It would be a hell of a lot easier and less damaging too introduce it into the A Class, than the F18.
Posted By: macca

Re: F16 Blade in Texel dutch Open (Geert and Raymo - 06/10/08 02:37 PM

Its more expensive to build an F18 at 180kg than it is to do it at 165kg..
Posted By: Cheshirecatman

Re: F16 Blade in Texel dutch Open (Geert and Raymo - 06/10/08 03:30 PM

Quote
Quote
We all know that the manufacturers could build their boats at 165kg if they really wanted to, but profit margins reign.


Hi Marcus

I don't believe it has anything to do with profit margins. The Formula was born from the Hawk and Tiger, both built at 180 kg. Builders today could build them lighter, very easily but they have a sucessfull class going at the moment and would put that at serious risk if they decided to knock 15 to 20kg off them.

The A class also can be built with ease now, down to 70kg..... But the class also does not wish to damage their sucessfull fleet. It would be a hell of a lot easier and less damaging too introduce it into the A Class, than the F18.


The original F18 was I think a KL. I seem to recall there was even a Hurricane 5.9 cut down to measure. The 180Kg was I believe put there to contain costs. It allows boats to be overbuilt and other than step changes in hull development boats through expected replacements/maintenance can remain competitive for many years. By taking this conservative construction approach the class has thrived. Yes construction changes are possible but what is the point if it adds cost and starts to alienate people who are sailing 10 year old boats. To my mind the F16 is compromised by its insistence on level rating the one and two man versions. If you not F16 'fleet' racing what is the point! Many of the boats will actually carry a handicap penalty for being classed as an F16 unless they are optimised.
F18 - works
F16 - born out of changing existing boats
F104 - brings numerous boats together

I would be more tempted to go F104 than F16, not for design excellence but for racing opportunities.

Cheshirecatman
Posted By: johnfullerton

Re: F16 Blade in Texel dutch Open (Geert and Raymo - 06/10/08 03:40 PM

Is this the normal way of most discussion.

One of the founders of the F16 class defining it.

People with close links to other manufactures attacking it.

If you do not like the class, why not keep posting on a f16 forum.

There must be forums for the f104,f18,and tornado somewhere.
Posted By: macca

Re: F16 Blade in Texel dutch Open (Geert and Raymo - 06/10/08 03:50 PM

John,

I was not attacking the class in any way.

I was simply pointing out a gross error on Wouters part. He made a claim that was patently untrue and now he refuses to proove his claim even though I have asked several times now.

The internet is a funny place, anyone can make claims about anything but when they are asked to show proof they go quiet on the issue... Kind of shows what kind of people they are doesn't it.
Posted By: taipanfc

Re: F16 Blade in Texel dutch Open (Geert and Raymo - 06/10/08 03:51 PM

Oh dear, all sorts of long and lengthy posts are going to be unleashed now.

From my hazy memory, when F16 came about it looked at existing hi-performance 16ft cats (ie Taipan and the Stealth) and looked at ways to equalise performance and create a level playing ground. This meant that new designs had a basis to look at, rather than competing on design and being same same but different (had to throw that in, been in asia for a while). But F16 went down the path similar to F18 in trying to ensure all boats meet a certain "box". This "box" is different in many ways to other "boxes" which makes the class more or less attractive to different sailors.

F104 from what I can see is to move some of the parameters of the box around, but saying you must rate in this band to join our group, but we are flexible on this and that.

Each horses for courses and could be endless hours of internet debate. But end of day, lets promote sailing and go out and do it. I know that this weekend will do a passage race on Sat and Sun round bits of Singapore. Lining up one girl to take for a sail afterwards as she is getting the sailing buzz. What are you guys doing?
Posted By: waynemarlow

Re: F16 Blade in Texel dutch Open (Geert and Raymo - 06/10/08 04:33 PM

Hey guys ( and rumour has it that includes Sue ) sorry but at the end of my sailing day which would I sooner push up the slip way, my F16 at 104kgs or a F17 at 159kgs, no contest really. I sold my Nacra 5.2 built in 1986 which weighed trimed down to solo sailing around 150kgs for that very reason, great boat, what a pain to move around on your own. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Ask Christa ... - 06/10/08 04:43 PM


Quote

So Macca/Wouter, you still doing beers then? Wouter obviously knows what Macca looks like but not vice versa. And you can even show what the cert looks like and not worry about this scanning thingy.



Personally speaking, I'm quite happy to quote Macca to interested parties that the F17's are 159 kg even when I know several were measured to be (around) 135 kg's when fully rigged.

Actually, I find this whole situation quite amusing. For once I claim the nacra 17's to be better then what is commonly accepted and Macca is still pissed at me ? Go figure ! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Wouter
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Ask Christa ... - 06/10/08 04:52 PM

We have been here before, and not long ago, so could we please stop feeding the trolls before we get a full repetition.
Posted By: pepin

Re: F16 Blade in Texel dutch Open (Geert and Raymo - 06/10/08 05:09 PM

Quote
Hey guys ( and rumour has it that includes Sue ) sorry but at the end of my sailing day which would I sooner push up the slip way, my F16 at 104kgs or a F17 at 159kgs, no contest really. I sold my Nacra 5.2 built in 1986 which weighed trimed down to solo sailing around 150kgs for that very reason, great boat, what a pain to move around on your own. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
Yeah, I know, this is my boat now and I feel the pain <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: F16 Blade in Texel dutch Open (Geert and Raymo - 06/10/08 06:59 PM

Quote
Its more expensive to build an F18 at 180kg than it is to do it at 165kg..

Macca,
I find your statement very interesting, since most Infusions weigh quite a bit more than the 180KG baseline (or most other F18 brands for that matter).
For instance, the boat sailed by Franck Cammas weights in at 187.2KGs.
Link to french F18 measurement certificates: http://www.f18.fr/jauge.php?page=4&
Posted By: waynemarlow

Re: F16 Blade in Texel dutch Open (Geert and Raymo - 06/10/08 07:56 PM

Hey Pepin we all take pity on you and help push the Nacra up the slipway for you <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />still a good boat even after all these years. Even had a 80's name Lilo Lil when I first bought it ( her ). <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Marcus F16

Re: F16 Blade in Texel dutch Open (Geert and Raymo - 06/10/08 10:20 PM

Steve,

Personally I think you are way off track & I will just agree to disagree with you.

Marcus
Posted By: Marcus F16

Re: F16 Blade in Texel dutch Open (Geert and Raymo - 06/10/08 10:28 PM

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Its more expensive to build an F18 at 180kg than it is to do it at 165kg..


Gee that one takes the cake.....Macca, I know you are smart - but that has to be the dumbest comment you have made to date.

Obviously you have never built a set of hulls - just bolted them to beams.
Posted By: Mark P

Re: F16 Blade in Texel dutch Open (Geert and Raymo - 06/10/08 11:16 PM

<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Darryn

Re: F16 Blade in Texel dutch Open (Geert and Raymo - 06/11/08 01:26 AM

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Hey guys ( and rumour has it that includes Sue ) sorry but at the end of my sailing day which would I sooner push up the slip way, my F16 at 104kgs or a F17 at 159kgs, no contest really. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />


I would rather push my 85kg, 1966 designed, Mosquito up the ramp actually and then spend only 20 minutes unrigging it. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Catamaran design hasn't progressed much in 42 years when you compare actual speeds around the race course.

Sailing is fun, obsessing about tiny details is not,

Darryn
Mosquito
1782
Posted By: taipanfc

Re: F16 Blade in Texel dutch Open (Geert and Raymo - 06/11/08 02:33 AM

I'll see your 85kg and lower it to 75! (and waiting for new 30kg one)
Posted By: Darryn

Re: F16 Blade in Texel dutch Open (Geert and Raymo - 06/11/08 03:01 AM

An A class and a Moth perhaps?
Posted By: Darryl_Barrett

Re: F16 Blade in Texel dutch Open (Geert and Raymo - 06/11/08 05:05 AM

I apologise in advance if this offends anyone but what a really pointless discussion this mostly is!
None of you really KNOW what is and what isn’t when it comes to the “why” any certain class of cat is, or whether or not it only “resembles” another class or whether or not that other class was used as a basis for its design. Most classes that sail today are mostly the result of “design by evolution” meaning that they are the results of previous ideas of other classes/types of cats that have been applied (in most cases) by small incremental, alterations/additions. The Taipan has been used as an example of the forerunner of the F16 here but did you know that the first Taipan was the result of taking the bow from off of a 16’ Mosquito hull and joining it to the aft half of the then current style A class hull? – What does that make the Taipan – a Mos-A? Or Perhaps an Amoss??
When for example you start to adamantly declare that this cat or that cat were the ones that the F16 or the F18 were based on you had better be very sure of your chronological history of catamarans or you can easily be shot down in flames if you are not accurate. Did you know that in the very early 1980’s (l980 and 81) we designed, built, sailed and commercially sold the Alpha Omega 5m and 5.5m cats? The 5m was designed to be sailed one up with a Tornado mast section as cat rigged with spinnaker, and two up sloop rigged with spinnaker well before the first Taipan (or F16) hit the water? The configuration/ measurements of the 5m Alpha fits almost exactly the measurements of the current F16, apart from the weight as the 5m Alpha was “of its day” and as a consequence heavier than the current minimum weight of the F16 and as there was extremely great resistance from cat sailers then to having a spinnaker on a cat (it was considered almost sacrilege) we later deleted the spinnaker as an option. Does this mean that the F16 was/is a direct copy of the Alpha Omega 5 metre?? Similarly our 5.5 metre Alpha still DOES, today fit precisely within the F18 measurements and rules, from the weight, the mast height, the main sail area, the jib area and the area of the spinnaker, etc, etc, and this is a cat that we sold for the first time in 1981. Could we not then say that the F18’s of today are all just copies of those Alpha Omega 5.5m?
In 1983 I attended a formal meeting of sailers where the main discussion on the agenda was the potential of forming formula 16, formula 18, and formula 20 International associations and of defining the measurements and rules for such classes. All the proposals at that meeting were, to all intents and purposes the same as those rules measurements and regulations that define both the F16 and F18 classes now. Does that mean that someone stole the minutes from that meeting and used them as their own to form the current F16 and F18 association? I am quite sure that there are a lot of people who were later involve, in one way or another, with the formation of both the F16 and F18 who through direct contact or through contact with people who were familiar – even remotely – with the “politics” of those times and of the Alpha Omega’s, who have been influenced, no matter how little or how distantly, by the Alphas (particularly) of that earlier time. This is of course what occurs when anyone “design/builds” any new boat/cat. No one ever starts from scratch. They are influenced directly and indirectly by what has gone before, they will always “borrow” either heavily or lightly from ideas of other designs that they feel will make their boat better – if they didn’t the only new boat that would ever come out from some one designing from scratch without the advantage of “accumulated’” knowledge, would probably be a floating log with a few cut marks in it. (And some idiot would say, “What’s it rate? While someone else equally stupid would say, “its overweight anyway”)
Does it really matter where, why, or how any of these classes came about, surely it is better just to enjoy them all while you are still able too? Remember – death is so permanent and so soon upon us all – (and lots of time not sailing to)
Posted By: Tornado_ALIVE

Re: F16 Blade in Texel dutch Open (Geert and Raymo - 06/11/08 09:11 AM

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Steve,

Personally I think you are way off track & I will just agree to disagree with you.

Marcus


No worries Marcus, agree to disagree. We both could be right, wrong or a little of both.

Profit margins should (to an extent) always come into it. If they could sell more at 165, then they would. I am sure they could lose a little weight for little or no extra cost (The class is nearly a decade and a half old now), but would de-stabilise the class resulting in less sales and less profit for them.

I would have loved a 165 kg F18 before I bought my boat (providing I had 165 kg F18s to race against).... But would be very pissed if they decide to drop the weight of the F18 now and the majority of the F18 sailors would be the same. I would imagine a lot of current members will walk away and future members would be very shaky.

I could not care less about the manufactures (no offence) as long as they keep making the boats. I have raced boats weighing 180, 170, 155 kg as well as light weights from 107kg to 75kg.

From 180 (F18) to 155 (Tornado), I have found little difference handling them on land with 2 people.

The lightweight boats are easier to handle on land, but I would not race one with the same crew I race the F18/Ts with. On the lighter boats, I would have a much lighter crew who would not offer anywhere near the same strength to handle the boat..... Or I would do it all myself.

One thing that surprises me in OZ is how most of the light weight sailors (except A Class), throw away most of their advantage by using crap beach wheels. Eurotrax or Cattrax are a little pricey, but cheaper the a chiropractor.
Posted By: Tornado_ALIVE

Re: F16 Blade in Texel dutch Open (Geert and Raymo - 06/11/08 09:16 AM

Darryl,

You are absolutly correct, but..........


















































Please use parragraphs <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: macca

Re: Ask Christa ... - 06/11/08 10:02 AM

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Personally speaking, I'm quite happy to quote Macca to interested parties that the F17's are 159 kg even when I know several were measured to be (around) 135 kg's when fully rigged.




Ok so if there is a measurement certificate of an F17 that weighed 135KG how about you post it? Or are you still trying to find it....?

Actually its pretty funny that the F17 weighs 159kg and it still beat the first F16 over the line at Texel by 22 mins. and you have stated that there is not much difference in sail area between the two boats but there is more than 50kgs difference in boat weight!! I guess your lightweight smaller hull theory that you rave on about all the time isn't woring out so good now is it?

That is assuming that that F16 in question was at "class" weight... maybe if it was heavier and had its rating adjusted accordingly then it would have fared better on handicap?

Quote

Actually, I find this whole situation quite amusing. For once I claim the nacra 17's to be better then what is commonly accepted and Macca is still pissed at me ? Go figure ! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Wouter


Actually you are doing the F17 a great service here, the boat is similar in sail area and size to the F16 and yet it is a lot heavier and still it outperforms the F16 in the worlds biggest cat race. I'm not pissed at you, I'm thanking you! Keep up the good work <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> do you want commission on all the F17's that get sold in Europe this year?
Posted By: Stewart

Re: F16 Blade in Texel dutch Open (Geert and Raymo - 06/11/08 10:42 AM

just for personal interest...

Would enjoy seeing pictures of the AO 5 & AO 5.5 posted..

Also where was the meeting you spoke about? Would be interesting to document all this for future generations.. That is if Cat sailing lasts into future generations..


<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Marcus F16

Attn : Uninformed Nacra Europe Representative - 06/11/08 11:24 AM

Quote


Actually you are doing the F17 a great service here, the boat is similar in sail area and size to the F16 and yet it is a lot heavier and still it outperforms the F16 in the worlds biggest cat race. I'm not pissed at you, I'm thanking you! Keep up the good work <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> do you want commission on all the F17's that get sold in Europe this year?


Macca you rattle off on this forum like you are the only informed person that exists. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> Did you realise that you are comparing a full body abled person (Adrian) against a fellow (Geert) who had a motorbike accident years ago & literally has the use of one arm only.....Geert did a hell of a job if you ask me.

Why dont you try & tie your arm behind your back & finish where Geert did.

Oh hang on that might be a bit hard given where you foot is right now. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Ask Christa ... - 06/11/08 11:31 AM

The appropriate places for the different topics in this thread is..

Open forum: http://www.catsailor.com/forums/postlist.php?Cat=0&Board=Test
F18 forum: http://www.catsailor.com/forums/postlist.php?Cat=0&Board=F18
F17 forum: http://www.catsailor.com/forums/postlist.php?Cat=0&Board=Formula17

That is, if you really want to discuss like this.
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