chop

I have difficulty with chop.

I sail with my mast straight up. Tback and Brett Moss, among others, have suggested a little rake will help.

I've been too stubborn to try it. What do the rest of you think.

Harden the F#$k up..... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5-ZLQGwkvU

Sorry..... Too hard to resist

Steve,
It doesn't work.
This guy doesn't look like Chopper.

Bloody good !!

Chop, chop, Chopper. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

It's a pitty he is portrayed with 2 ears in the video clips.

Why?

Sticklers for details. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Perry,

The real Chopper cut off his own ear for a bit of fun thus the knick name. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> Well; just part of his ear.

Regards,

Peter

Fun....your pulling my leg.

Or maybe a little too much of the hot Aussie sun?

FUN? not really...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Brandon_Read

While in Pentridge prison's H division in the late 70's, Read launched a prison war. His gang, dubbed 'The Overcoat Gang', because they wore long coats all year round to conceal their weapons, were involved in several hundred acts of violence against a larger opposing gang during this period. Around this time, Read had a fellow inmate cut both of his ears off in order to be able to leave H division temporarily. Whilst in his early biographies Read claimed this was to avoid an ambush by other inmates, his later works state that he did so to "Win a bet". Several other members of Read's gang also cut off their own ears in a similar fashion after this incident

the length of the boat doesn't do very well in chop. I am glad I didn't do the RTI this year on the blade (short version that it was) because the 18HT was getting battered by the chop on the gulf and I saw the 20s slopping around alot also. My thought is to trim for as much power as you can and/or foot off some to develop some speed. I am not sure how raking the mast would help too much but my understanding of rake is limited (allows you to point better? hurts downwind performance- at least without a spin?)

I swear I could not tell the difference in Matt and Gina's performance. Whereas, when the water was nice and flat, I did ok. Once there was a hint of chop I fell W-a-a-y back. These were very easy conditions, hence the frustration.

I race one up against Mozzies sailed with crew in chop which is often riding on a 2 metre ocean swell. While footing works if it isn't too windy, 15knots, once the wind increases their greater righting moment helps them to punch through. I then point higher, sail each wave using the standard method but look 3 waves ahead and plan a path through to flatter sections which I foot across. Using this technique I can get to the A mark as quick as the Mk2s up to 25knots when racing is cancelled.


Darryn
Mozzie
1782

The 16 does not cross waves as well the the longer boats that is for sure. We found that we have to have speed and by shifting our weight forward to keep the bows down we can drive through the chop. Keeping one hull up helps a lot too.

How much mast rake are you carrying?

Do not worry about rake.

In the light air with the big chop like we had latter on Sunday, the F16 is definitely at a disadvantage to the longer and heavier boats. We accelerate more in the little gusts, but keeping momentum and the boat from bouncing is virtually impossible in those conditions. As soon as the sail shakes, you have lost flow over it and that is bad. The I20's and the Tiger were noticably less bouncy.

When it switched to that light bouncy stuff, we adjusted our sail settings to be more like a close reach and footed way off to keep up some momentum. We shiffted the weight forward and leward also as far as we could to try and keep down the hobbie horsing in the waves and reduce the drag on the windward hull.

These conditions are very bad for my head and Gina will tell you I am not much fun on the boat. As soon as you can start trapping this boat really seams to dig in and go. A lot may be the boat and a lot may be me. This discussion sort of follows the similar thread about spin shape. Tunning in general for me I figure has less than 1% effect on how I sail. Is it sort of visually the same as most of the other boats on the water? If yes then 99% of how I do depends on how I stear and trim the sheet. When I worry about the little things then they are wrong because I am not concetrating on what is making me actually go. This has been my personal view of it. While these things do have value, at my skill level they are lost in the backwash. If I was legitimately competing with the Asbhey's and other top multi guys, adjusting my sail shapes and tuning I am sure would have some merrit. But I know that given the very best equipment, set up by the top sailors, if I do not drive right I will finish no better than if I had some old sails and my kids rigged my boat for me.

Matt

What would the definition of chop be, and when does chop transform into waves?
I am thinking of chop as short "nasty" waves throwing you around and being a bit confused as opposed to regular wavesets? My experience with this kind of seas are a bit limited, but just as with waves my feeling is that helming technique is critical for speed. When I lost my rythm sailing in this stuff with the Tornado it was really a quick loss of power and I had to say "sorry" to my crew <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> With relatively flat bottomed boats this must be much worse than with the sharp bottomed hulls of the Tornado. What it boiled down to for us was to jugde which waves you could drive through and which you had to fall off to power over. Helmsman was 100% on the approaching wavesets while crew trimmed and did tactics/strategy.

Rolf,

Last weekend we had wind generated waves that were not terribly confused. The issue was they were comming from a ways off and where we were located there was not the wind, at least sufficient to move through the amount of chop.

The only solution to that I know of is to do like you say and just keep the boat moving however you can. It was brutally obvoius when it was not done correctly as you came to an immediate stop in the water. The laylines and tacks were long, but if you did not keep a lot of twist in the sail and foot like mad, it was longer.

Sounds challenging Matt. Another skill to add to the collection <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

If you are going to race it is one to have in your bag of tricks but is definitely not worth the smilley face <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />

I would much rather be able to spend full time practicing my skill set in 15-20

<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

We were very fast in very weak winds and very strong and gusty winds, becouse that was what we usually had at home. We did not like sailing in weak winds, but had to focus on the positive and the challenge if we wanted to get on the water. Just trying to cheer you and everybody else up with the smiley. Sailing is so very much a mental game <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Following up on my own post. Would T foil rudders have been a benefit that day? Less hobby horsing and less pitching when going over a wave?

I would guess the T foils won't have any effect because of the low speed.

Gill

T's do help as the dampen it.

As for defining chop, what I gon my lake is "chop" foot+ high and about (well it feels like) about 5 feet apart - I'm sure they are further apart but it feels like slam, slam, slam uphill and dive dive downhill...

Classic example; about 12kts wind, waves about 10 feet apart.

Hi Pete,

what I learnt on the Dart 18 (which is one of the poorest boats I have ever sailed in chop) is to keep the bows down, e.g. go for a proper weight trim. That means not just go or sit more forward, it means constantly moving forward and backward to keep the boat level. On the wire it is easy, if you or you crew is sitting it can be more difficult depending on your deck layout (trapez shock cords, dagger boards, etc.). If possible let one hull fly, adjust the trim to do it. But most important is longitudinal weight trim.
On the Javelin 16 it is a bit more relaxed, to my surprise. I still have to keep the weight forward, but I don't need to run as much a long the hull as on the Dart 18.
On a Tiger or a Tornado, I felt like on Queen Mary, my weight didn't affect the boat... but maybe I have a different perception because I was used to sail the Dart.

Cheers,

Klaus

Klaus,

did you ever try to do the "wild thing" downwind on the Dart18 in chop or waves? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Simon,

the spi in the picture you posted, is that the old spi or the new GP?

<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
...test the drysuit and how many bruises you may bear. But have to admit that I had also some really bad expierence <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />.

some nice shots
Not me in the picture.

I was really sceptical, if I should replace my Dart, because I felt I would miss its strong wind capability. Now we are going step by step to stronger winds with the Javelin. Last trip my wife, who didn't sail for four years, helmed it under spi and constantly dove the bow till the front beam (heeling up high, bearing away, diving...), the boat is well-behaved, she tasted blood and no chance to stop her from smiling over the whole face for the next two days. So I don't miss the Dart, especially not in light winds and chop.

Cheers,

Klaus

That one is the old one. New one is flatter.

It would be interesting to see a shot from about the same angle, or from a distance, to check out the difference in the flying shape of the luff. It looks like there was quite some curve in the old spi.

Yes, the Landy kite flew best with a very soft luff. The GP one flies better with a tight luff.

That is my experience as well. Keep the speed and pressure up on the F16 and it will ride the chop relatively well. Once you slow down to almost a stop then it is all over. Sometimes I also move along the hull in an opposite motion to the chop. Like this you can stop the hobby horsing in one movement but your timing has to be right.

Wouter

I realize it is a different, longer boat but we had a day at the last "A" World's where the chop was still quite nasty but the wind was very light (6 maybe??)- being used to light wind it was my best race but my technique was to do everything I could to get the weather hull out of the water and chop- I was inboard, just beside mast, with fair amount of mast rotation, fairly loose foot and steering through/over the waves as someone else posted- I did very well upwind with this technique, downwind was tough- tried to stay fairly "hot", sat against the boom to keep rig slopping to a minimum, and wished I had a chute! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Kirt

There was a relatively strong current running with the chop. Which makes for the worst possible conditions for me.

Any advice on dealing with currents?

Try to find out which direction they are going vs your desired direction-
If it is against you then you want to stay out of the current as much as possible- ie tacking close to shore in shallow water vs long tacks out into a channel where the current is typically greater, MUST take into account when you try to judge your tacking/jibing angles. When the current is with you then you want to stay in it as much as possible- ie stay out in the channel and not in the shallow water, still need to adjust your tacking/jibing angles. Prior to the start sail near a bouy/anchored boat/piling and you can get an idea of the current direction and speed. During the race check this as well since if tidal it will change during the day- if river usually doesn't unless close to coast, along beach can also change with location ("rip" currents, etc.).

Hope that helped some-

Kirt

Thanks Cap'n! That is helpful, of course my problem is the Atlantic Ocean; specifically the Daytona area. Our weather mark was far enough off shore, that the current was strong in some areas, not so much in others. Not easy for me to figure. Didn't seem to bother the top three boats though. Guess that's why they were on top!

Pete-
Another way to try to figure out which way it is running is if you can take a "transit"- ie sight between two stationary objects on one tack vs the other- all boats "sideslip" a bit but it should be noticeably worse on one tack vs the other- whichever it is worse on is the direction the current is moving- of course this only works for "cross currents". If you have a compass aboard you can use it as well to take a bearing and get the same information.

Kirt

Pete, I'm reading your original post ,
"I have difficulty with chop.

I sail with my mast straight up. Tback and Brett Moss, among others, have suggested a little rake will help.

I've been too stubborn to try it. What do the rest of you think. "

Not having racing credentials my opinion may not be of interest, but I am one who likes the mast as far foreword as possible. Being on the light side and solo I find the limitation to rake is that when the wind blows white caps the bows will start digging in and I'm way back on the hull.

Two weeks ago I was lucky enough to be sailing with Andrew (and Elizabeth) and their Taipan 4.9. Northern New Mexico is stuck in a high pressure system this time of year and when the one storm cloud in four days arrived we were both out in the white caps. (I had rigged my fore stay into the second hole from the bottom.) I de-powered and was trying to go fast but the bow kept digging in. When the wind lightened a bit Andrew popped the spin and it was a race down to the east end of Heron Lake. Again the bows were diving, up to the beam in one instance, so he got way ahead. We ran out of lake and started tacking back but apparently there had been a wind shift as the chop was that of confused seas, maybe two feet, close together but not organized into waves, it was just chop. Every pitch foreword and aft broke the air flow and the boat went nowhere. So I'm there remembering, "get your weight on the center of the boat to reduce the pitching" i.e. main beam. So I'm there remembering something Matt M posted about the importance of hull speed and I'm laying off and moving foreword, I am thinking this is the condition where the Blade's hull design should outperform the Taipan but I can't get my weight (135 pounds) foreword enough to minimize the pitching because the pole is raked too far foreword and the bows keep digging into the water. Had there been less wind I could have gotten to the center of the boat and minimized the effect of the chop.

Pete, I don't know if this applies, but if you can't get to the center of the boat (length wise, buoyancy wise) because the bows are digging in then raking the mast back toward the rear is in order. Other wise, if it's light air try traveler out, at least a foot.

Thanks for the advice, Will, and it sounds like you had a pretty good time!

Hey Tikipete, I'm also a supporter of rake. When I first got my viper, the mast was pretty upright on the first sail, however as we raked is back 2 holes, the load on the rudder increased and the helm increased a little, but the boat sails sooooo much better upwind, and I can literally feel the boat lifting upwind by itself with it's foils loaded rather than having to try to steer the very neutral feeling boat upwind which is really slow because of all the rudder movement.

Also in chop, I tend to let of my main a little, not only to sail lower through the chop but also because as the rig stands up straight it seems to power up (of course beyond a certain point easing the main more means the main loses power instead).

Of course not sure if all this applies on the Blade. We'll do some experiments here in Singapore and see what the difference is with the blade from the viper.

T Pete, Yes it was fun and a bit challenging. Only wish there were more of us in the region. More of us would include F 18. Hope Tropical Storm Faye didn't hurt you too much. Looked like Titusville got pretty well slobbered.
Will

Ckuang,

I was wondering if you'd mind explaining the following quote that you posted the other day? I don't know if I've experienced it and if I haven't, I'd like to try.

"but the boat sails sooooo much better upwind, and I can literally feel the boat lifting upwind by itself with it's foils loaded rather than having to try to steer the very neutral feeling boat upwind"

Thanks,Will