F16 Main sails

Ahoy all, I finally jumped the fence and bought a F16. Well, not quite, it's actually a Stealth which predates the F16 box rule, so it's not an 'optimized' boat: the spi pole is shorter than allowed, the boat is narrower, the main is small with a rounded leech (no square head), I don't even have the magic winglets on the rudders... But hey, it floats, it's half the weight of my Nacra 5.2, I can recover from a capsize by myself and it fits the box rules.

Anyway, I need a main. I'm not in a hurry so I can afford to wait and choose. I've looked around to see who is making F16 main sails and tried to find price information for them, see the list below. I would probably be a good idea to keep this list on the F16 website somewhere next to the lit of boat builders. Is there anybody else I missed? Of course price is only part of the equation, can you share information about those sails if you have one: quality, performance, size? Anybody ever compared sails at Mumbles between beers? Measured foot, leech, head? And if each of those sailmaker is sending me a sail to test I promise to make a big article about it <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

It's always nice to use someplace relatively local in case something goes wrong, as such the GP sail is most tempting for me, but something must be said about the low price of the $ making the Glaser attractive, especially if I could find someone to fly back with it instead of shipping across via fedex!

Sailmaker making F16 sails for sure:
Glaser: http://www.glasersails.com (US)
Goodall: http://www.ahpc.com.au/p_goodallsails.htm (AU)
Grant Piggott: http://www.gpsails.com/ (UK)
Landenberger: http://www.landenberger-sailing.com/spip.php?article149 (GER)
Ullman http://uk-ullman-sails.com/ (US?)

Prices are around £1200 for the GP, the landy or the Goodall with battens and VAT included.

The Landenberger is available from multiple sources in the UK (example: http://www.bitz-brands.co.uk, and I think Mark P. is also reselling those). Also it is worth nothing that Landenberger is making 3 different sails for the F16, with different cuts and materials: the one I priced is the cheapest Pentex one.

The Goodall Viper sail is available in Europe via sailfast.fr. Is the sail for the AHPC Blade different from the Viper one? Anybody knows? Anybody seen that sail?

The Glaser is $1540 with battens, around £850 at today's exchange rate, which is far far cheaper. But once you add the 17.5% customs, plus shipping from the US (Battens are expensive to ship!) the price get close to the same thing really. *unless* you know someone who can collect it in the US and travel with it... I don't know of any importer for this sail.

I have no info whatsoever about Ullman sails. Price? Availability? There is nothing on-line I can find about those sails so any information would be welcome. I know Ullman was the sail shipped with some Vectorworks Blade in the US, but that's it.



Sailmaker who never build a F16 sail but could:
Whirlwind: http://www.whirlwindsails.com
Chip has not done a F16 sail before but as I was in contact with him for a main on my 5.2 I asked him. He quoted me an interesting price, overall a little bit cheaper than the Glaser. It's a risk as it would be a first sail for this boat from him, but he's experienced, and it would be nice to add another sailmaker to the list...


Unclear if they are making one:
Ashby: http://www.ashbysails.com
He is making sails for Taipan, Tornados, F18 and A class, anybody knows if he developed one specific for the F16? Maybe now that the Olympics are finished he will have time to make a real web site with some product information.


I don't think there is really a market for used Main F16 sails. It seems people keep their sails for training purpose when they upgrade, but just in case, if you have a used F16 main for sale, talk to me...

When I spoke to Greg he recommended the new big head Taipan mainsail as suitable for the Blade.

There is no information whatsoever on G. Goodall sails available anywhere I can find. Are the sails for the AHPC Blades, Vipers and Taipans all the same? Is there different models?

There has to be different models as the masts are different. If somebody tried to sell me a mainsail cut for a mast they dont know all details about, I would walk away.

These days with computer models and CNC cutters, you should be able to talk with any of the sailmakers about your weight, skill level, expected sailing conditions and get a sail tailored for you.

Pictures glaned here and there...

Glaser:


Grant Piggott:


Ullman:


Goodall Viper:

.

Pepin,

The GP Sails mainsail has been developed by Grant and I espically for the Stealth tapered mast. Grant is UK based, a Cat sailor and a top bloke. I's suggest spending the money and going with a GP sail.

Are you planning to come to the Grafham Cat open on the 18th and 19th Oct. I'll be there as will others with GP mainsails if you want to have a proper look.

Cheers

Simon.

Maybe, is there a NOR available? Can't find it on the Graftam web site...

It sould be up soon!

So which boat did you buy, Pauls old boat that was at Datchet or another.

I think both Nick Moore and I are planing to travel up to Grafham, perhaps we could encourage a few others as its not far up the road from Datchet.

Talking to a few other members at Datchet, there seems to be a bit of a groundswell of prospective f16 buyers with a number already with boats advertised. Should be interesting over the Winter and in particular next summer as we are regularly getting 4 - 6 boats on a Wednesday night and similar Sundays. Its a pity we couldn't get all the F16's in the boat park to all race at the same time <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Why do the GP mainsails have the downhaul eye 6 nches from the foot?

It allows more freedom for downhaul setup - I have set it up so I can tune it from the wire with one hand easily, and also keeps the blocks away from the the gooseneck.



The bottom has a plastic slider that just sits in the mast track.

So what's the point of the sail below the downhaul? wgy not use that sail area somewhere useful?

I find this an interesting point but I do not think most sailmakers will make a sail specifically for you. They hvae a template (or whatever) and they use it. I have talked to some about even making a more UNI shaped sail for the blade and they did not seem the least bit interested. That being said, not sure I could make much of any benefit it may or may not have. If some sailmakers aren't interested in the difference between a uni sail and a 2-up sail then not sure they give a crap about whether you weigh 200 or 160. You think they would care about whether you predominantly sail in 5kn vs 20kn of wind... but not sure they care about that either. Whether one could make use of the difference is another discussion.
Anyway, my thoughts on the matter and it could just be me and my limited experience with sailmakers. I have gotten 2 new mains for cats in the last 3 or so years and the first builder (very well known) didn't ask me a single thing about how much I weigh and how much wind, etc. Of course I knew nothing then though.
If you truly want one designed for you then you do need to go to your local shop or somehow convince the big guys to give a crap about a possibly one-off sail.

The blades are actually built by Vectorworks and Formula Catamarans Australia, not AHPC.

Greg said the Blade and Viper sails he was building were different. The Blade sail was the same as the Taipan sail. As far as I know the Blade and Taipan masts are the same. Not sure what is on the Viper though.

The Viper, Taipan and Blade all use the same mast section here in Australia.

And I thought the downhaul eye was 6 inches from the sail foot so when the sail doesn't measure because it's too big you can easily get rid of a bit of sailcloth without damaging the integrity of the design.....any ideas Matt, Geert <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Isn't the proper reason that pulling the downhaul on hard you can actually stretch the luff longer than the rules allow, but having the downhaul clew 6 inches above the foot you can pull on hard but the foot doesn't necessarily lower and therefore the sail remains within class rules.

Partly.

There is a black band rule. Essentially it's a function of measured luff length, sail area and foot length which will ensure you are not ALLOWED to pull more downhaul on than would streach the mainsail bigger and 15sqm (including the mast). Masts will be marked with a black band which will show the max DH that can be applied. This is the same as the A Class.

Please go to the F16 website and download the measurement spreadsheet: http://www.formula16.org/images/stories/measurement/f16measurementform.xls

The exact formula is defined there.

I don't have a black band on my mast. Does anyone? Or am I missing it because the mast is black?

Do you have a black band on your mast Simon?

When I laid my Landy sail on top of Wayne's GP sail the luff lengths were visibly the same. Which brings me back to my first question about the downhaul position.

Am I smelling something fishy here?

Ok guys am I missing something here, as far as I know the raised downhaul was simply a conveniance thing to allow better management of the top downhaul pulley blocks ( they used to bottom on the upper part of the boom swivel if you had anysort of shackle or rope arrangement below the lower edge of the sail ).

If you think there is something fishy here then out with it please as I think there was no intentional reason to circumvent any rules. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

[quoteAnd I thought the downhaul eye was 6 inches from the sail foot so when the sail doesn't measure because it's too big you can easily get rid of a bit of sailcloth without damaging the integrity of the design.....any ideas Matt, Geert ] [/quote]

Now Mark innuendos whether they have a Welsh humour attached or not doesn't always read well ( particularly for the non native Welsh folks of the world ) and can lead to all sorts of rumours flying about.

Your reasoning about the possibility of oversize sails is about factual as me saying your sail must be bigger than mine as you keep getting turned over in high winds ( well you did at the Mumbles meet <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />). Having put a Landy sail on top of the GP sail, its surprising how little different they are,ever so slightly more in the top and ever so slightly less at the bottom. From first hand experiance they have the same area. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Are you coming up to Grafham with the Blade or the Stealth ?

Nothing fishy at all; I wanted the blocks higher up to stop them fouling the gooseneck whenh the DH is on hard.

Yes.

I only mentioned Matt and Geert because their mainsails were measured at Zandvoort. The outcome was that they were oversized, so Matt took out a chunk of main between the foot and downhaul clew and Geert removed the same area from the leech. Neither were very happy in having to do this.
P.S I added almost 1kg of lead to the top of my mast to comply with the mast tip weight rule <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> but it was only temporary.

Why temporary? You mean you removed it? So you are no longer F16 compliant? So we can protest you? (says the man who just bought a boat and has no idea of its weight or its compliance...)

Ahh so there was a little background info that I didn't know about. I reckon Mark that the weigh in and measurement regimme at Mumbles was pretty spot on, well thought out, laid back and done with a minimum of fuss and bother, well done the Mumbles club. One can only hope other venues are as laid back.

My Blade came with an Ullman originally. There was some dissatisfaction with these sails. I found it was too flat for sailing 2-up and the top wouldn't hold its shape properly when sheeted hard in moderate winds. I've since bought a Landenberger with a full cut for sailing 2-up, and it's much better. That said, I still use the Ullman when sailing 1-up as I've had some good results with it. I think Ullman are a franchise so what you'd get from the UK may be very different from my sail which came from the US.

If I were you I'd be looking at either the GP or Landenberger mains.

As for kites, all I can say is that Mark P was bloody quick downwind with his new GP kite when I sailed against him at Carnac and Mumbles.

Paul

Totally agree GP kites are quick!

FYI

Jay Glaser used to be the person making the cat sails at Ulman until he reopened his own loft. So once upon a time, an Ulman sail in the US was a Glaser. Now, I'm not sure.

Based on the exchange rate, the Glaser sounds like a very good value. He is currently making a lot of Blade sails, F18 sails, and A-cat sails. He has not done a Stealth, but I'm sure he could do it if you chose to go that route.

Charlie Ogletree works at Ullman and does a lot of their multihull sails.

Having watched the local A cat fleet try different sail makers... including all of the ones being discussed..

Go Local... if the sail maker measures your mast and factors in your crew weight... and is a pro.... You will get a good sail.

I have seen two instances when the big names send their all purpose sail for guys and it looks like crap and does not work on their mast for them.

Go local! Your sail maker can make any changes if needed.

The lead was taken off the mast tip when I dropped the mast for the journey home. You probably could protest me at any future event but you and me both have the same masts so it probably wouldn't be your wisest move. I think this all boils down to measurement certificates which just isn't happening here in the UK at present but I'm sure in the next year or two things will move on, boats and equipment will have to provide certificates at registration for the bigger events.

Hi all,

sounds like the Stealths need to lower their gooseneck <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />, then you wouldn't need to put downhaul blocks up the sail.

Having the correct tip weight mast is very important though <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />. It is easy to check your own at home as I did with "Altered" and add strength or weight as needed. Don't just leave it for the measurers. The difference in weight aloft makes most difference to upwind performance in chop and we all know that nobody wants to cheat. Off course their is no need to check if you have a Superwing Alloy Mast.

Right, but we are all to big around here and moving the gooseneck any lower will prevent us from going under the boom when tacking <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

This said this is a non issue with my small Stealth pre-F16 main, with a luff of 7.43m (According to the SCHRS site) instead of 8.10m (the max allowed by the F16 rules) it means the sail sits higher. But this raise an interesting question: I assumed the mast of the Stealth was the same as the more recent Stealth F-16, am I right? Or did the mast length changed when the boat was F16 optimised?

Lets get one thing perfectly straight. There is NO black band rule in the F16 class rules !

It is another one of those things like the F16 constitution that the GC wants and acts like it exists but it has never been voted upon and therefor it can not be part of the F16 class rules.

Also there is absolutely no mentioning of the black bands in the publically available F16 rules, just as there is no mentioning of any AGM or constitution.

http://www.formula16.org/content/view/13/36/lang,en/

I would really like to propose to the GC to get with the real world and handle these things properly.

Wouter

GC have said nothing about this as far as I know, Simon did.

I dont find any black band rule either, so there can not be one for now. On the other hand, somebody might be working on a proposal for the members.

Lets get one thing perfectly straight. There is NO black band rule in the F16 class rules !

I'll stop looking for one now! Thanks Woulter....

The GC has taken up a black band measurement in the official F16 measurement form when no such item is even mentioned in the F16 class rules.


When my boat was measured it came back with a note that my blank band measurement was "an issue". It was no use arguing that the F16 class as a whole doesn't even know what a blank band measurement is.

I now have the questionable honour of having an issue with a F16 rule that doesn't exit.

Wouter

Whopsee, sounds like a communication issue which should be resolved.

My mast has a large black band of carbon all around it. As long as the measurement is concerned only with the bottom of the band I'm fine. Right? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I was quoting from the measurement spreadsheet (see link above).

I think I am correct in saying the F16 sail measurement is slightly different to normal SCHRS (only luff length of mast rated in area.) Is there an arguement for the mast to be banded upon measurement of the mainsail? Mainsail measurement requires the luff length to be measured under tension. Banding would make it apparent that the luff length (and rating) was being exceeded.

Cheshirecatman

Hi Pepin
When I was sailing an R and bought a new Landy F16 mainsail I had to move the boom/goose neck below the mast rotator bracket but it worked out really well. I had to also adjust the outhaul system to the max length of the boom, that boom was a rectangular shape. If you're looking to change mains and need photo's info on what I did please don't hesitate to contact me.

Isn't that section acting as a boom vang? As you release main sheet the boom wants to rise. The lug in the lower sail section is in the sail track and that sail panel pulls tight, stopping boom lift. Vangs are something cats never seem to have.

Just a guess...

As it was explained to me recently, cats do not have vangs because it would impair mast rotation. With a vang you lock the mast and the boom together and the mast can't rotate freely anymore. Monohulls with vang do not have rotating masts.

So if your mast rotate: traveler. If it does not, you get a more convenient (IMHO) vang.

My Arrow had a Vang and the mast rotated fine. The Arrow has a fairly low aspect rig compared to modern cats though. I think it would be scary how much tension you would need on the vang to get decent leech tension on the big head mains. Can you imagine the boom you would need to handle that sort of load?

That lug would never hold the tension required to keep the boom done.

Pepin, the GP sail fits the older style Stealths masts fine just as it is, both Nick and I have not had any problems. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

The lug is for the outhaul to pull against, sail without it in the track and the sail near the boom get very ugly. My Mosquito has a vang, very useful for sail shaping and forcing rotation on light days.

I wonder why the Goodall F16 sail for the Viper is different then the Blade/Taipan on the same mast?

Darryn
Mozzie
1782

me too

One of the blades at the club is currently carrying the goodall sails, and the main is the same as the viper big head main. The differences lie in the blade's jib, which has a longer luff length and the spinnaker, which seems to have a longer luff length too. As far asi i can see, all the big head mains coming out of the goodall facility on the taipan, viper and blade are the same.

I crewed on a skiff a few times over winter... It had about a 24:1 ratio on the vang, and he would wrap it around his hand and CRANK it. This caused a lot of mast bend... but more amazingly it cause the boom which must have been about 80mm diameter to bend! And his rig was substantially smaller than a cat rig!

I can't speak for AHPC, but Greg told me that he would build the Viper main different to the Taipan because.

The spreaders are different, the mast is longer,the boom is shorter, also the loads are higher because of extra width and weight.

The spreader difference and weight apply to the Blade Vs Viper also. Although I would expect the Blade and Viper main to be closer in design than the Taipan.

In reality though, you will easily get more variation from different manafacturers making sails for the same boat from my experience. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> I don't think sailmaking is the exact science we all wish it was. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Pepin, are you planning to acquire new beams from John P?

Of course, you'd need a new tramp as well or at least insert a widening strip down the centre of your existing tramp. However, you'd then (with a new main) have a fully optimised Stealth F16 and have increased the value of your boat? Psychologically too, you'd feel that you were on the pace.....

It's just what I would do in your position if I was planning on new sails, go the whole hog!

Definitely not. The 0.02% gain in performance I will get by widening the boat by 8inches will not compensate for my poor sailing skills. I'd say I should improve the man first, the material second.

A F16 main on a type R platform was great at going upwind, don't ask me why but I'm sure it points higher. We have had quite a few beer discussions at the bar over this but no one has come up with a clear answer as to how a slightly narrower platform (200mm-8inches) could point higher but it does. Also, in the lighter stuff you can get the windward hull out quicker both up and downwind and the platform could be stiffer. So all in all there's extremely little overall speed difference between the two. Like Pepin admits it's the nut on the end of the tiller that wins, loses races in most cases.

Ahhhhhh! - NOW I understand!! - It's not the 8 inches themselves but how you use those 8 inches? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

FYI, many non apparent cats have vangs. When going downwind square with the traveller and main sail all the way out, it is important to keep the boom low to present max sail area to the wind.

My old Dolphin had a wing mast like a super wing and never experienced any promlems with rotation. Also had a vang on my old Mari 4.3. Paper Tigers, Mosquitoes, Arafuras and Quickcats I have also sailed had vangs.

I use the vang upwind also in the light stuff, vang sheeting like a Laser. While some Mozzies run square downwind I find it quicker to gybe downwind, using apparent wind, the vang helps over rotate the mast.

If the Viper rig has more grunt then...? Perhaps I miss the point.

Darryn

The more weight a boat carries the more grunt it needs....?

And if the grunty rig was fitted to a min weight platform?

Should be an interesting year for F16 sailing locally.

Darryn

Interesting thought...

Is a vang now a valuable tool as a preventer? i.e. set it to the max "safe" mainsheet ease for down wind so you can play the main downwind with more confidence? It would require stronger booms than most people carry.

Would lead to unnecessary drag.

We have that base covered.... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Gary-
Aren't the Taipan and, certainly, the Blades mast the max length under the F16 rules? How could the Viper mast be longer?? Are the Viper spreaders longer or in a different position, or both?

Kirt

Kirt,

if the Viper mast was longer than the F16 rules allows, it would no longer be an F16. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Spreaders are different on all the designs and one of the variables it is fun to play with.

Hi Kirt,

from my conversations with Greg and personal experience of trying to set a old Taipan main on a F16 it would appear that Taipan masts are slightly shorter than the maximum allowed under F16 rules. The Superwing sections are longer than maximum length of Taipan mast so are long enough for maximum F16 length.