uni vs sloop

Just a curiosity question. If you were to start a regatta with crew, would you be able to finish with out crew? Assuming you removed the jib of course.

I think it is in general considered good taste to finish as you started. HOWEVER, in the past crews have notified the RC in advance of the racing and asked permission to switch setup during the race-days because one of the crew was unable to attent on some given day. I remember this being put to the other contestants and being accepted by them. Of couse the general feeling is that for alot of races the importance of the event it too low to bar someone from racing, we'd rather have a larger fleet. Afterall, racing succesfully both singlehanded and doublehanded requires additional skills and is therefor not an easy route to victory.

I do think that switching role depending on the expected weather of each race or each race day is frowned upon; considered to be unsportmanslike.

Still, this has happened to with the acceptance of the fleet at one of the Gulfport events. I believe a second day was so windy/gusty that some singlehanded crews hooked up together as a 2-up crews for that day only. I remember it was decided to score these crews seperately from the 1-up setups involving the same persons, This resulting in DNC for at least part of the races and thus making this move totally irrelevant for the top places of the fleet. It did allow these 1-up crews to maximally enjoy the event and participate which I think is a very good thing. Afterall these crews travelled and piad good expense to be there and it is only fair to have them participate in any and every race.


Of course, in all setups the jib must be removed (or may be added when goin 1-up -> 2-up). For each single race the boat MUST be fully F16 compliant.

And of course the mid race switching is put to the fleet which may accept it or not. I don't think the fleet has ever barred this, but then again no requests for such a thing has ever been made for say an alter cup qualifier or F16 Global Challenge !

Wouter

My girlfriend and I were talking, and I was telling her that the boat can be raced in both configurations with out penalty. She was wondering if the weather turned poor, but racing continued, would the crew be able to stay on shore if the skipper still wanted to race.

Dunno, but I vote yes. Gotta keep the ladies happy. I you dropped her in light air, someone might object. But if it's blowing and nasty you'd probably be fine.

In the end it all comes down to the rest of the fleet accepting this change (a la mid racing). Up till now no F16 fleet had disallowed it when faced with such a situation but I'm not sure if opinions will be the same whe you try this at a really important event like the Global Challenge. At club race level I imagine it will always be allowed. But you always have to put it to the fleet. The only exception here is when you change the setup right before closing time of the official registration. Up to that point you can change at will.

Wouter

Interesting question and a nice idea.
Imagine what happens when the crewmember rolls in the jib just before the last windward mark, hoists the spinnaker and then jumps overboard allowing a fast last downwind run for the skipper

regards, Michael

What would really be nice is if we could get enough of both, Uni and Sloop, at a single regatta, (say, 5 or more of each) to score and trophy them together and separately. You boys over in England seem to get out more Uni's than sloops, any reason why or does it change a lot, week to week?

I think the reason we generally got more single handers is that we are looking for a single hander we can also sail two up instead of a 2 up boat we can sometimes sail single handed.

Can you please identify the class rule that permits the changing the boats configuration from uni to sloop or sloop to uni once the regatta has started.

Uhhhhh, this is "official" F16 info ... we'd have to shoot you if we told you.

Why do you care anyway? Thinking about moving to the F16 class and just being sure that you can throw your crew overboard and not get DSQ'd?

What he is really worried about is his crew abandoning ship...

;^)

Your comment seemed like a joke but just to clarify...

RRS 2009-2012, p24

47.2 No person on board shall intentionally leave, except when ill or injured, or to help a person or vessel in danger, or to swim. A person leaving the boat by accident or to swim shall be back on board before the boat continues in the race.

I belive that rule only comes into play once a race begins what not before and after
Cheers Shane

When I first got my Taipan 4.9 (before Wouter, Phill and I devised the F16) I sailed in 2 regattas where I registered as a sloop with 2 crew but my crew (my son) only lasted through the first race before getting seasick/cold/tired so I DNS'ed a race and sailed to the beach and dropped he and jib off then continued regatta uni. Nobody complained because they used the "faster" sloop number since that is how I had registered. That "ability"- ie to sail sloop or uni by merely adding/dropping jib/crew with great performance either way is what drew me to the Taipan in the first place and what prompted us to dream up the class. Prior to that there were some boats you could sail either way (NACRA 5.5 for instance) but they had different masts/sails/etc. (although they were close) and they were too heavy for me to enjoy singlehanding. When we started the class we did not intend for people to "switch" in the middle of a regatta, let alone a single race, unless there was some extremely unusual situation and then only if no perceived advantage were gained. To me the advantage of the F16 over an "A" for instance is the spinnaker, the added durability and relative lifespan of the boats, and the ability to take another person with me when/if I want, although 90% of my sailing is uni.

Kirt

I've heard rumors. . .

Timbo, the reason why we here in Europe are sailing more uni rigged boats is, that the way from the windward mark to the beach is to far and the water is much colder than in Australia. When we kick our crew over board to gain some speed on the downwind leg many of them didn't make it to the beach.


Yes thats it! We grow the class by throwing crew menbers over board! Every skipper takes new crew members for regatta and as soon as they have to swim several miles from the windward mark to the beach ones or twice, they have enough of their skipper and will buy their own f 16 to continue fast cat sailing.

Regards, Michael

There is no class rule that either allows this or forbids it.

The F16 class rules leaves this open to be regulated by the SI or by vote of the other participants in the fleet.

The F16 class rules often do not rule on HOW an event is organised or structured. That is something for the group of people organising the event to decide.

Of course it is expected that you race/finish the event as you have started it and a mid-event change has thus far only been allowed when it was announced before the closure of the registration and when no objections from the fleet was received. I know of only one exception and that was last years (or 2007) Gulfport A-cat/F16 invitational where the wind were so unstable that several 1-up crews asked mid-event if they could hook up to form 2-up crews. It was decided that the 1-up and 2-up results would be handles seperately meaning that several DNS's were recorded for these crews and thus removing any unfairness towards the crews that remained with their original configuration.

Now I know that for alot of people this situation is hard to understand (not that I understand why that is) but the practically speaking each crew finished the event in the setup they started in and only in a fewe special cases was a change allowed. Often measures were taken to garantee that such a change never disadvantaged any "consistant" crews.

It is foremost a possibility to allow people to participate justifying the expenses made to get to the event, it is not a class policy or even an encouraged principle to change setup mid-event. The only thing that is encouraged is the possibility to sail both setups in general or change setups up to the moment of final registration (Changing setup between seperate events).

Wouter

I can see someone taking advantage of any rules (or lack off) regarding competing in an event as sloop and uni.

Light winds favour uni, fresh favours sloop. Just check out the forecast and plan accordingly.

TA,

Wouter has over simplified it.

Statndard SI's forbid the changing of crew or equipement - changing config is both.

You enter an EVENT in one config or other. We have had situations (Mumbles 2007 is a classic example) where someone's crew cannot make part of the regatta, they register and declare this well in advance and then we, the sailors OK it (or not) AS IT IS OUTSIDE THE NORM. You could not EXPECT to get this approved, but you MIGHT. We are a friedly class!

I think if someone asked to do this on the first day of the regatta they might get a different answer!!, as it might be decided that they WERE trying to gain advantage, instead of using the flexability of the boat to get sailing.

In this case, Paul asked to do this a couple of months before the event was due to start!!! It was VERY windy when Paul was sailing without Anne and lighter when he was!

In a club race series, over 3 or 6 months, I think people would have to be very anal not to allow it. The ability to sail one or 2 up is part of the attraction of F16.

Just as team USA did with the Hooter in this years Olympics right ? Sure as hell made them a winner !

Otherwise Scooby sais it best.

Besides, this is something that can never be prohibited. Why not have a special high winds and special low wind suit of sails ? And wait till the last possible moment of registration to decide what to use. Same when you own a Tornado and an A-cat. Then too you can wait till the last possible moment and switch upon what you think gives you the best advantage. I hear the Tiger is best for high winds and the Capricorn for the rest. Why not own both and decided right before the registration closes ? Want to change mainsail cut mid-event in a F18 world championship ? Just jump through it and claim replacement due to damage.

Most classes pretend that these loopholes don't exist. The F16 class does not. So with us you can switch setup to whatever you like right up to the closing of the registation office and change only mid-event when that is accepted by your competitors in the fleet. Simple and effective !

My PERSONAL opinion is that a crew may change whenever they want (I really don't believe one setup has a significant advantage over another) when each setup is handled in the results as a seperate entry. Thus meaning that when you switch you'll receive DNS's for all races where you were sailing in the old setup and DNS's for all future races you are not sailing the old setup.

Example :

Say I switch midevent in a 2 day event (3 races each day) :

2-up : 1st race = 4th, 2nd race = 3 rd, 3rd race = 5th, 4th race = DNS, 5th race = DNS, 6th race = DNS
1-up : 1st race = DNS, 2nd race = DNS, 3rd race = DNS, 4th race = 3rd, 5th race = 1st, 6th race = 4th

There is absolutely no way you can be in any way advantaged to a crew who has done all races in the same setup (no dns's) this way as of course each DNS awards you the maximum amount of points in a "the best of low scores" system.

You will be foolish to switch setups in a structure like this and thus it will be selfcontrolling.

Wouter

You guys do try to complicate something that is rather simple.

Can someone in an official capacity within the F16 class please clarify which rule allows a team to change its configuration once the regatta has started? I've reviewed the class rules and cannot find anything that allows this type of change.

So unless I hear otherwise, by your class rules you cannot change your boats configuration once the regatta has started.

Corrections and clarifications welcome. Please PM here or email me at smalldog266 (at) comcast (dot) net

I just love the "the rest of the world has got it so wrong, and we are so right attitude"

There isn't anything in the F16 rules about configuration changes.

It is in the Sailing Instructions which be individually tailored for a regatta, conditions, competitors really, which is completely separate. Usually these say that the competitor needs to sail to F16 rules.

So whatever the Race Committee wants to include, ignore, change, it is up to them to note down in the Sailing Instructions. So if they want to allow indiscriminate rig changes, then so be it, but generally you would need to apply in writing to change configuration and the Race Committee would act on this request in some form or another.

Quite common in all the regattas I have been to all over the world.

Thank you for the clarification.

If I changed my rig configuration during a regatta I would only continue racing for the thrill of the chase and expect to be scored DNC or DSQ for the races following the change.

If I change a component of my current configuration because of damage I would apply to the race committee to continue to be allowed to compete.

Just the way I see it.

Short answer: NO.

Long answer below.

You cannot change your setup in the middle of a regatta. Never ever. There are equipment and crew rules preventing you from doing so (not F16 rules, but generic RRS).

For club racing you may ask your fellow competitors if you can do so in case of mitigating circumstances. If any of the competitor refuse, you can't change because if you do he will protest you and win the protest.

In any case the race organizer may choose to accept the change but apply the 'Wouter solution' as it will disadvantage the switcher no matter what and will get more boats on the water, something always good at any regatta.

Nothing could be simpler.

I don't see how it is different from having an incapacitated crew member on a two man boat (F18 or Tornado). Your crew can't sail with you anymore because he's got a bad case of the tourista/can't stand you anymore/developed a fear of water: You find a replacement crew but then any other boat can protest you and you will lose. But if you ask nicely a gentlemen agreement may be reached letting you finish your regatta with the alternate crew (From my experience with F18 sailors, a pretty unlikely event). And of course the race team may choose to score you as a separate boat like Wouter suggests instead.

So Dave, when are you buying one so you and I can go at it, Mano a Mano, sans crew?? ;^)

Currently I'm in love with my Infusion so it may be a while and honestly it will probably be an A cat if I move away from the F18.

As a follow up to what I said above; I think this closes this discussion!!!!!

Then if you have no intention of ever being a F16 owner or competitor, do you just hang out here to bust Wouter's nutz? Or are these real questions?

Real questions and I just want to make sure we are on the same page taipanfc, phill and scobby_simon have made it crystal clear. We do on occasion play in the same sandbox, this weekend for example.

So, are you saying that if a cat is raced in a distance race as Uni on day 1 it should also be raced Uni on day two? What if the crew is hurt? Or has child care issues, or has to go to work, etc?

Here's the problem, as I see it. We all have different issues to deal with, so somedays we can race two up, some days we can't find crew or crew has been hurt from day 1, etc. We still want to race, as it's hard enough to get the days off to race in the first place, so having your boat there, set up, fee paid and ready to go, then the crew bails on you, for what ever reason, just plain sucks.

I would prefer to get as many boats out onto the race course as possible, all days, regardless of crew issues, to include F18's and Inter 20's being sailed Uni if it comes to that, conditions permitting. But there is no -Uni- number for a F18 or I20, that I am aware of, is there?

Maybe there should be, as you can certainly sail them that way weather and skill permitting. Is there a P-number correction for no-jib + no-crew? I would much rather come up with a P number adjustment than keep boats off the course due to lack of crew.

Now, if instead the -issue- is trying to game the system by using crew on a windy day and then not using crew an a light air day, well, I am still undecided on that, since I believe the F16 Uni number should be a bit higher than the Sloop number, due to the lack of hands during a spinnaker take down on a windy day, but it is not and the Uni pays the price on a windy day, so they should be able to make it up on a non-windy day, or do it both ways, crew in wind, none for light.

So in theory, by having the same P number, we are saying there is no speed difference between Uni and Sloop. And if that is true, then it shouldn't matter to anyone who accepts that they are rated the same, in which configuration the boat is raced, from race to race or day to day.

But we both know that is not -politically- acceptable to some other classes who do not have that "flexibility" in their rules and ratings. It's not even acceptable to most of the F16 sailors here. I personally have no problem with it as I would prefer to see as many boats on the starting line as possible, even an F18 sailing Uni. The F16 class is not big enough yet to really split into Uni vs. Sloop, but maybe some day there will be enough of both to score them together and as separate fleets.

I'm not here to debate the issue because it's already been discussed at length in a thread prior to this one and there really is no need since the issue has been clarified.

You are correct, the debate was over a long time ago, that was just my explanation for sailing the F16 instead of the F18 or I20. I'm usually solo but there are times when, if I can find good crew, I would like to have them along, just not able to find them usually. We all didn't marry as well as you and Matt did!

But to answer your question, the P number is the same, so it should make -no difference- in an "Open Class" regatta, if the boat is raced Sloop one day and Uni the next, right?

Your arguement simply does not hold water. That's like me saying I'll sail heavy when it blows and then change crew to sail light when the breeze softens. Same DPN, but CLEARLY UNFAIR! So Tim if you change your conifiguration once the regatta has started and don't clear it with EVERY sailor in the fleet then yes you run a good chance of getting flicked!

Yeah, I understand that, and it's just as -fair- as giving both the Uni and Sloop the same P number.

But the F16 class has no minimum crew wt. rule, so I don't know exactly which class rule you would be in violation of unless it were spelled out in the SI's.

But for the sake of discussion, I will throw out a What If scenario, and it has already happened, so it's not unheard of. You put on a big regatta. Sailors come from 500 miles away to race for the weekend. The first day it is blowing 25+ gusts. Some of the Uni guys don't want to go out, so they team up and go out. Now, on day 2, it's only 15, so they wall want to sail Uni. Well, the boats that never left the beach on day 1 are obviously not going to have a -score- from day 1, because they DNS'd. Or should I say, they will have a score of 1 more than the number of boats that did sail, let's say 5 did and 5 didn't. So they all get a 6, correct?

Come day 2, all 10 boats go out as Uni. Do the first 5 that sailed sloop on day 1 get to count their scores from day 1? And do they get to count their scores from day 2, racing in a "different configuration"? And what if one Uni on day 2 gets all bullets, but on day 1 he wasn't out, but had all 6's. What's his score then? Say they raced 5 races on each day.

If it were me, I wouldn't care, I would be at the keg talking about what a great time we all had out there, racing, not crying about how 5 boats shouldn't have been allowed to sail on day 2 because they were crewing on day 1.

But that's just me.

Your class rules DO NOT permit you to change your boats configuration once the regatta has started.

For the record; It was YOUR class that requested the uni and sloop number be combined, so you did that to yourself.

If you want to play with others outside your class you will follow the rules and that includes your class rules.

And yet you wonder why attendance is down...This ain't the America's Cup, lighten up.

If we're losing the folks that will not follow the rules what have we lost? Do you think it keeps the people that follow the rules away?

F16 isn't about rules! its about feeling that you are smarter than everyone else because you have seen the light and now as an enlightened one you are above the usual restraints such as rules.

Someone forgot to tell John P (2008 GC champ) and Hanks K (2007 GC Champ) that 1-up is slower than 2-up.......

If I had to race a 2 up boat all the time, I wouldn't be here, nor would a lot of other F16 sailors who want the flexibility of doing it -both ways-, that's all I'm saying.

There really isn't a problem inside the F16 class, the problem exists only with other classes, why they care is beyond me, oh, wait, they don't like being beaten in an open type event. I hate open type events where you have to do math to decide who won, but there will never be a perfect rating program, it is what it is, so accept it and move on, or don't show up. And Ding, if the rule doesn't exist, who is breaking it?

What is the real issue? Is it the upcoming Area D's you are concerned with?
Just put in the sailing instructions, there will be NO crew or sail changes and no configuration changes, that ought to cover it. That way you won't have to worry about anyone trying to leave crew behind, or change out crew for wind conditions in the 2 up boats as well.

And Macca, nice job at the F18N/A's, if that was you. But you don't have to paint us all with the same brush.

Macca must be out of work again or have too much time on his hands, he's back making crass statements again on the F16 Forum ( its certainly been quiet without him ), can't we just all chip in and buy him a F16 and tempt him over to the darrrrk side, he may become our biggest "converttee", oh he already owns one, his Maricat, forget that.

missed you at Hiram's Timbo. You and Matt would have had fun uni sailing Saturday....

I missed you too Jay! How was it for you? How's the back? I had to work, somebody's got to pay for this stuff and the wife refuses, so that leaves me...

Actually, the F16 class rule do contain the limit that you may only use a single suit of sails for the duration of the event. So you can not change out a mainsail or whatever unless the SI of the event specifically overrule this and allow it. As good as always this mean in case of irrepairable damage and after a request to the RC has been made succesfully.

Apart from that, many people here should read the other regulations governing sailboat races like the ISAF set of racing and event rules and standard SI given out by local organisation. Lots of things left out of the F16 class rules are indeed regulated by these seperate set of rules.

Apart from that I don't see the (Alter Cup fear) either. I don't remember a F16 crew changing over setups at any major event like the Alter Cup qualifier. I don't recall even a single crew seriously considering it. Why are we suddenly all so afraid for something that is regulated in SI and such and that also never happened ?

Wouter

Because they have not read the standard SI's?

The Taipan fleet in Oz actually developed a standard set of Sailing Instructions for National and State Championships. This was to ensure a level of consistency for these annual events, and to make life easier for host clubs. Maybe something for F16 to consider for GC events? Means you have the Class Rules, but also SIs for "sanctioned" F16 events. But the SIs can override anything in the class rules if they wish.

Ref: http://www.formula16.org/content/view/16/38/lang,en/

Already in place.

Hmmm, not really. Doesn't specify courses, length of start line for number of boats, race distance, time on course, scoring method (like for 8 race series 1 drop after 4 races, 9 races + 2 drops) etc. These are all aspects that are key to a sailing event that are in the Sailing Instructions. As a suggestion if you standardise these it means you know what type of racing to expect and can train accordingly and develop sails as well. Otherwise a committee could put in really long reaches, or triangles, or P courses etc etc.

Again only a suggestion.

Sail/configuration change is covered there, which was the "big topic" further up in the thread.

I am used to a standarized format (windward-leeward, three laps) and always have to think through things if things are changed from that. Got a DNF and lost a 2 place at an event once becouse the RC decided to throw in a W/L-trapezoid with a finish to windward the last day at an event once. We messed it up royally so it was our own fault, but we were not happy

SIs have to accomodate local conditions so 'standarized SIs' will have to be adapted, but it is a good idea as far as I can tell. If you set up a proposal I'll bring it to the GC and the members forum.

Developing sails and training specifically for an event is taking it a bit too far IMHO. We are not there yet and I hope we dont get there either. That is olympic leve stuff, and even they dont get it right. Gambling for a light wind or strong wind event is just that, gambling. Top level competition is about minimizing risk in my opinion, not gambling.

Area D Elims (what some are calling the Alter Cup) is covered with regard to the SI's. The Area Elim SI's follow the template in the rule book.

Issue is we sail other events and not all events use the template. The problem is easily addressed.

Have a great weekend everyone.

Dave

I dont even think it is a problem. Precedence is well established. I understand that Dave is organizing racing as well as racing himself. As such we should thank him for taking interest and checking that things are done by the book.


Not long since we discussed this at length, and Simon, Phill and others are right IMHO.

That's all well and good, I like to play by the rules, else it's not really a game, is it? But here's the problem we run into quite often:

You are at some local club event, your crew for day 1 can't make day 2, not injured, but for what ever reason, doesn't want to go out. You have options, you can grab some guy in the parking lot who broke his boat on day 1 and isn't going to sail day 2, or something like that. Or on the F16, you have the option of sailing Uni if your crew bails or is hurt and you can't find another. But now you are all saying you might as well pack up and go home because you are now breaking rules,and some will even call you a cheater. At a local event! As if winning some peice of plastic is worth that.

Dave, you recall at Wild Cat a few weeks ago, I was sailing Uni, there was a little boy who wanted to crew for someone. You asked me if I could take him. And I replied that I didn't have my jib stuff and my second traps rigged up, which I didn't, but let's say I did. Let's say I did take him, and I'll tell you, if I had the extra stuff rigged, or if I'd had enough time to flip the boat and add the extra stuff, I would have, and I did consider it but time was running out to make the start, and it was blowing, and I didn't know this kid or more importantly, his parrents, his skill level, etc. So I was a bit leary...

But for our discussion, let's say I took him out, Sloop rigged. So as is usual on a windy day with five 3 lap races, this kid is worn out and doesn't want to sail day 2. He's not injured mind you, but maybe I scared the crap out of him when I sent him flying around the forestay.

Now what?

Now I'm screwed. I can't swap crew, and I can't sail Uni unless I want to be called a cheater.

Is that how it's going to be?

I thought we were supposed to be having fun. But now I can't sail, so where is the fun?

And what about that little kid? I'm sure down deep he's now thinking, "Sailors are DICKS! Nobody would take me sailing so screw them, I want a Jet Ski!"

When this stops being fun, I'll sell the racing boat and buy a ski boat or a cruising boat. Life is too short to take a local race so seriously. And judging by attendance, I don't think I'm the only one who feels this way.

Trying to PM you.

"Timbo is over their Private Topic limit."

So how do you stop sailors from tossing their crew off if they find it advantageous? That is the real question.

If you know beforehand that you will only have crew for so many days, apply for permission to change configuration before the event. I would not mind that.
In a local race where I know everybody I would not mind you changing configuration if your crew was scared/injuried/had to go either. If there is a RC/jury, apply for permission to swap crew or configuration and get out there.
Once there is something "important" up for grabs, we better play by the book, as that is the only way to minimize discontent in my opinion. Viewing it like that supports the claim that racing is a loosing game for everybody but the sole person/crew who wins (so we should focus on other stuff than racing).

What is it with racing you find fun? Is it the scoring, or measuring yourself up against others on the course? Like Phill said, you could go out and participate, but expect to be scored DSQ? (and possibly some grumbling about you being in the way when you have no business there).

I completely agree with you that this should be about fun, but we need a structure for racing to make sure it is reasonable fair.

Tim, this rule/policy has been around for as long as I've been sailing and it's there for a reason. I've told you and your fellow fleet memebers told you how to get an exception or waiver. The issue is is that some sailors don't feel the query is necessary.

Also keep in mind, the higher you are in the standings the less likely you will get the go ahead from the fleet to change your configuration.

I've been caught in the middle, and this issue is coming to a head. I felt discussing it here would be a better approach than someone getting flicked at a regatta.

I agree Dave, so let's discuss it. I guess in my scenario I have to go to each and every other compettitor and ask permission to race with 1. a different crew and/or 2. a different configuration, correct? And what if 9 out of 10 say, No Problem. But just one says, No Way. (there's always one, right?)

Do we take a vote or is one enough to keep me from racing?

Rolf, you say "Just apply for permission" you then assume permission is granted, what if it's not? Obviously you are not going to make any changes. Too bad for the little kid who wanted to crew I guess. Who needs new people in the sport anyway, especially kids...

Open for discussion.

I think the key is to only sail with people you enjoy being around. For myself, I'll be sticking much closer to GYC. I don't really want to share the water with the people who constantly attack me. In that regard, "Tradewinds" may be out for me. There are three or four people who attend that I just don't want to be around.

Refresh my memory: last year at GYC no one asked permission for anything, they just did what they thought was reasonable. I have no argument with that. But how did the scoring work?

You've presented your case, I still feel there is still enough wiggle room for the kid to sail. If one person says no, then it's not that kind of regatta.

Please keep in mind not everyone views every regatta the same way. Some may be quite casual about a regatta and yet others may take it very seriously. If it's in the SI, then you need to follow the SI.

Does anyobody have a copy of the Wildcat SI's? I never got one, so If anyone has one, could you please post them or send it to me or PM or something.

Thanks.

Tim the cheater, soon to be a drunken power-boat operator, and if you think I'm going to move out of the way for a friggn' sailboat, forget it, all us power-boaters know all sailors are dicks and only zig-zag like that to piss us off!

I don't how to respond to that.

Are the rest of us missing something here? There seems to be animosity over quite an innocuous issue....

This is an issue that has been around for as long as I've been involved with sailing and that's almost 40years!!!
I can remember many regattas/open meetings where crew changes have been necessary/requested - sometimes permission is gained, sometimes it's not. Sometimes people didn't ask and suffered the consequences, sometimes they got away with it. There's no real hard and fast rule, nor do I think there can be.

If you've asked and one person out of a whole bunch has refused, it's then up to you to sail or not as you see fit and risk a protest - sometimes the naysayer will just leave it alone.

I think this situation has pretty well been covered, changing rig config AFTER a regatta commences is a straight No No. Changing config during something like a club series is a grey area, personally I don't see it as a big deal - I guess it depends on the club, where you finish and what your competitors are like (there may even be an established local practice).

I have no problem at all with Dingram or anyone discussing this issue here but it is not a uniquely F16 problem. And I don't see why you're getting so heated over this Tim - noone's accused you of cheating (or as I said at the top, have I missed something?)

Happy sailing, guys!

AMEN to that. I don't feel like racing if it is around certain people. The problem is the one I don't want to be around is usually there! Would love to be around GYC though, seems to have anice mix of laid back people there.
Oh well, much rather enjoy sailing by myself than deal with the arrogance of trying to race with some. At least the M20 is out of action for a little while.... couldn't have happened to a nicer guy!

Sorry John, some of our U.S. sarcasm just doesn't translate well. Kind of like telling someone over there to "Get Stuffed!", Over here that means to eat at Pizza Hutt ;^)

This whole topic is about one or two particular guys, who shall remain nameless, who are trying to start some -stuff- because they don't like the F16 class, or I should say, don't like losing to an F16. And Ding is -not- one of them, I like Ding but I think he is speaking for them.

But that's all it is, and it's local to us, so please don't take offense. I am intentionally blowing it out of proportion so we can settle it as soon as possible.

And I really did have a power boat guy tell me all sailors are A-holes who only zig-zag to piss them off. And he was serious, he had no idea why we need to tack.

And while I'm here (I've got to leave soon) let's take it to the next step as Pete has just brought to light what is going to eventually happen, I fear. Let's say you have one guy who continually shows up at every local regatta and goes about protesting evey little thing that he feels is not in the rule book or is but nobody knows about, or relly cares about and generally makes life miserable for some of the others.

And let's say people are turned off by that, and pretty soon they stop coming, as Pete has pointed out, it's going to happen.

And then one day there is a regatta, and the -only one- who shows up is the one guy who loves to protest, well, Happy Racing, you jackass.

Well, at our club we even allow people to sail different boats during the course of a club race series (over several weekends). I don't think anyone has ever exploited that option tactically - it always comes down to crew availability. So if you find yourself in Cheshire, you'd be welcome to join us at Dee SC!

Thanks for the invite, I always did like it over there and one day I hope to make it back. I can't for the life of me figure out why any local "Fun" type regatta has to be such a pain in the butt, I guess some people just take themselves too seriously. For me, it's about learning, sailing and drinking, and getting away from the wife for a day or two! It's not about the trophy, or lack thereof.

I reckon the above sums pretty much why I like the F16 scene, its full of laid back people who enjoy the racing as much as socialising, perhaps thats why the fleets are growing so quickly.

This area eliminations is going to be interesting. Too bad Team McDonald is not going them folks are scary fast!

that sucks he isn't going
is there a list of people who are competing?

http://home.comcast.net/~smalldog266/smalldog266/AreaD/AD_WhosComing.htm

You can scratch me. There isn't enough interest to warrant the time and expense.

hmmm... I wonder who will win with his sweet rating?
I hope they send the numbers to the committee

I don't know how far you are away from Juana's, but that regatta is all about being laid back. It's so laid back that if you protest, it's kind of frowned upon. At least that's what my initial experience is with it.

They also have a spring regatta called "Island fever" I believe. I haven't been to that one, but it's basically the same as the one in the late Summer/Fall.

After I get my boat and if I can't make it to the GYC invitationals, I'm going to try to make it to the Spring and the Fall Juana's. Just because it is FUN!!!!


Mike

Juana's is fun! But it's quite a long drive for me.

He would be favored to win in any case, and rightly so. The "selective" reporting of results just diminshes his achievement.

We need to drop the U.S. Portsmouth system and go to one less prone to manipulation.

Do you have any Fn' idea what you are talking about?

Based on your previous misunderstandings of ratings, rating systems ... You are clueless... Even when it's explained to you... you continue to make wrong assertions...

Now this one... You think that the PN's are being manipulated?

What an butt!

What BS evidence have you dreamed up.. that suggests that Darline is manipulating the ratings..

The only reason I bother is make sure some newbie doesn't read this BS and give it ANY credibility.

YOUR POST SHOULD BE ELMINATED BY THE F16 FORUM MODERATORS!!!!

Kiss my butt! Do you own and F16? NO! Then kiss off!

Guys,

keep it civil, or keep it out of here.

Just to be clear the thread isn't about club races. Unless of course the club races have Sailing Instructions.

Tim, make no mistake if a regatta is being governed by the US Sailing rules and has an SI you can bet I expect everyone to abide by the rules of the regatta and I am speaking only for myself on that issue.

Me too, so what is the problem? Did I violate any rules or SI's? Why don't you just come out and tell us?

Or is this about the upcoming Alter Cup Area D race? WTF?

you have my number. as far I'm concern this issue is closed.

Pardon me for not jumping into the F18 forum and doing the same, but you see, I don't own an F18 so I really don't care what their rules are, even if we are racing together.


I don't know about the rest of you F16 sailors, but I refuse to allow some outside class to tell us what our rules should be. If they want to put it in the sailing instructions, fine, but if we have the same P number Sloop or Uni, I see no reason why we cannot switch when ever we feel like it, and for what ever reason, and without asking permission from a bunch of F18 Nazi's to do it.

To get back to the original question that started this thread;

Karl, I have no problem with you leaving your girlfriend on the beach if she doesn't want to go out, and I won't protest you if you do, no matter what the wind.

When this thread started, I would have prefered that the same configuration be kept throughout a regatta. I've changed course by 180!

Since the entire planet seems hell bent and determined to tell us what to do, I propose we do the opposite!!

If memory serves, there is a regatta down in the Caribbean where the local fishermen load their sloops with as many crew as they can carry, hike them out on boards, and when they head downwind to finish all the crew jump off into the water! I vote we adopt that rule! Crew can bail anytime!

Tiki,

come up and see me ... spend some time ... relax a bit ... you're getting too wound up!

Timbo,

I'm with you ... put up the sail [or take one down] ... get to the start and let's RACE!

Thank you for your support.

I'm Tim Bohan, and I approved this message.

wow heated indeed. Its sad that so many curse words were used to emphasis the lack of conviction ability.

I hope you folks are not growing grudges specially towards the "F18 Nazis" I am now an F18er but I got mad love for the F16 crowd. After all I was the owner of the first production built fully compliant F16 owner in the United States.

Whos buying the first virtual rounds? I prefer rum and cokes over beer, so bring em on!

OK, lets not throw mud around....

I'd like to ask some simple questions and I'lll provide the answers I would expect if I was racing at "an important handicap open" in the UK (i am sailing a Tornado)

1, The wind has changed, can I change my mainsail for one that is more appropiate for the conditions
UK answer; No, you started the regatta with this sail, as you know, you cannot change equipeemnt during the regatta unless it is damamged
2, My crew does not fancy sailing today, can I change him for another one?
UK answer; Nope, there is no good reason for a crew change; mutiny is not a good reason
3, My crew has broken his arm, can I change him for another one?
UK answer; Please apply to he OOD in wrinting as per standard procedures; you will be granted this request.

Now in THIS EXAMPLE, would you expect the same answers in the US or any other locale?

Now similar questions.....But I am now sailing an F16

1, The wind has changed, can I change my mainsail for one that is more appropiate for the conditions
UK answer; No, you started the regatta with this sail, as you know, you cannot change equipeemnt during the regatta unless it is damamged
2, My crew does not fancy sailing today, can I change him for another one?
UK answer; Nope, there is no good reason for a crew change; mutiny is not a good reason
3, My crew has broken his arm, can I change him for another one?
UK answer; Please apply to he OOD in wrinting as per standard procedures; you will be granted this request.
4, I would like to take a crew as its got real windy and I do not want to sail single handed.
UK answer; Nope, there is no good reason for a crew change(adding one), or an equipment change (adding a Jib and trap wire).
5, My crew has broken his arm, may I sil in single handed mode......
UK answer (by the book): Nope, there is no good reason for a crew change(removing one), or an equipment change (removing a Jib and trap wire). However you may sail with a substiture crew if you aplly in the ususal way.
UK answer I'd expect you to get from the F16 fleet if you were sailing at an F16 event, but you would probably be subject to a vote by the other sailors in the fleet: Yes, you can, shame its now blown up windy, you'll have a lot of fun, as you don't usually sail single handed, we'll keep an eye out for you.

Mine's a pint





None of this is anything to do with the F16 rules, it is ALL covered in the standard SI's.

Well here's the thing Scooby, I was talking about a local club type regatta, not a huge National event or even a Qulifier to a big event. I believe there are more restrictive rules for Championship events. How many of us weigh our boats and get our sails measured at any event but a Nationals, for example.

We don't have many F16 only events, I can only think of one per year. Most of our racing is with several other types, F18's and I-20's mostly, and unless the turnout is very good (not likely any more) we all share the same start, sail the same course, and are scored on handicap.

The F18's were quite vocal about getting the P number lowered for the F16's, and they did, and that number is the same for Uni or Sloop and if they are going to use that, then I see -no reason- why it should matter to change configuration during an open racing, handicap type event.

If it's not a rule in the F16 class, and if it's not prohibited in the Sailing Instructions, I see no reason why we should have to ask permission from anyone when we are racing on P number handicaps.

Now, on the sails themselves, that is covered in the sailing rules as you stated, you cannot change one mainsail/jib/spinnaker for another unless it's damaged.

And on swapping out crewmemebers, you cannot take the fat guy on a windy day and the 8yr. old on a light day, unless as you said, an injury is involved you ask in writing to replace him.

But I don't think the word "Configuration" is in the rulebook.

And Robie, since when is [censored] a curse word? ;^)

the dude has a point... if the number is the same, who gives a kiss?
maybe the "others" would be happier if our number were 50, then they would no longer care.
BTW.. Have I brought up the sweet and unfair rating of the N17 recently? No? QD baby, may need to increase that to BID... tiki knows what I mean!

The U.S. Portsmouth system is a reporting system. To my knowledge, there is no requirement to report. The system is purely voluntary. Without new data input, the handicap numbers remain unchanged, even if the sailors increase their skill levels.

For almost three years I have heard complaints about the F16s number being too generous. Now, the number has been lowered but no other class has been lowered. This must mean that others are perfect and cannot improve or they are not reporting.

Omitting data manipulates the system.

IMO, the simplest cure is to go to a non-reporting system. Texel for example.


Texel currently rates F16 and F18 at 106. There are so many versions of the N17 it's impossible for me to know which number is appropriate, but they are all higher than 106 (I think).

I'm all for abandoning Portsmouth in favor of Texel.

I remember one of these F16 only events (Gulfport F16 invitiation 2 years ago), we had alot of F16's, but it was blowing like "stink" (25+ knots and gusting) on day 1, so all the uni's doubled up. Granted we had 3 less boats on the start for Saturday, but the racing was excellent. And Yes, the usual suspects still placed 1-2-3.

Racing was more exciting because most boats were "in" the race ... not capsized for being overpowered.

Day two was more manageable and we went back to uni config ... putting more boats to the line. Again the usual suspects finished 1-2-3.

No one complained, EVERYONE had a blast and we toasted over beers and excellent food (did I say this was at Gulfport ... the best [censored] hosted regatta or club event (next to SpringFever) in the Eastern USA!

Come on over tomorrow! We can cruise around the course and just enjoy the water. I haven't been out since June!!!

sad state of affairs if I have sailed my Blade more recently than youhave sailed yours

True. I haven't been out since May ... and probably not again until January. I've got my sights (and hopes) set for Tradewinds.

All the best.

Maybe there should be a rule that says you are only allowed to place 1 post for every hour you sail!

Just to be clear, the F18 rules say nothing about changing crew during a regatta: http://www.f18-international.org/F18_2007_Class_Rules.pdf
Its the NoR/SI that should cover these issues, I think changing crew is fine as long as there is a valid reason and it is approved by the race organizers.
IMHO if you dont it might reak a little of opportunism when you switch between crews or even go uni during a regatta to suit conditions.
Its not fair to the crews either, because if there is a lowwind day and the skipper decides to sail uni.

What might be a fun idea for an F16-only event though is that you are allowed 1 change during the course of a regatta.

(Timbo: maybe you should apologize for calling other sailors Nazis, that is totally ridiculous.)

I am not surprised that there was absolutely no input about the rating of the N17 on the F17 forum from the N17 sailors. Clearly they didn't want to feed the trolls. However, at least we answer their legitimate questions when they post here


And, Tony F18-
I don't mind at all... and none of us should.... non F16 sailors coming on the F16 forum and offering whatever opinion about whatever even if it is against the F16. HOWEVER, you are on the computer also so don't make comments about how much we post. I infrequently read the F18 forum. I read the F17 forum and post there because their president set that precedent.

From Pete's post above:Without new data input, the handicap numbers remain unchanged, even if the sailors increase their skill levels.

Pete, it's the same sailors at the top, I've got no problem with that, but let's talk about the NEW F18's that are now out there, the Capricorn and the Infusion. Based on the top 10 finishes of their own recently completed F18 N/A's, I would say those two boats are "faster" than the old F18 rating. But, due to the nature of P numbers, since it was a F18 only regatta, no data will be used to correct their number.

Now, here is the most stupid part of P number racing. Take Wild Cat as a really good example. 2 Blades, 3 Inter 20's, 4 F18's. Matt was beating just about all of them, boat for boat, most of the races. I was somewhere in the middle of the fleet most of the time.

So based on that, I guess the F16 should be rated FASTER than an Inter 20 and F18, right? And somebody will submit that data and then argue to lower the F16 number further. But let's look at what actually happened.

Some of the boats (Inter 20's) sailed the WRONG course on a couple of the races! They thought they had to go to B mark when they didn't. They were not DSQ'd, as they sailed a longer course, not shorter, so their finish times were not realistic in comparrison to anyone who sailed the correct course. Also, there were boats that flipped. Again, this slows the actual times down and does not reflect the real speed the boat is capable of.

This is why I said in an earlier post, we should measure the course, take times, see how fast a boat is "When Sailed Properly", by a top level skipper and/or crew.

If Alex had been there on his Inter 20 with Nigel, they would have stomped us all, boat for boat, no doubt. If Robie Daniels had been there on his Capricorn, he would have been right behind Alex and Nigel, boat for boat, no doubt. And they both would have been well ahead of me, no doubt.

Using finish times in triangle racing on a gusty, shifty, crash filled race course is just plain stupid, but that's all we have.

I, being of engineering background, would prefer we come up with a formula that measures the boat's sail area, weight, beam, waterline, and pick a -standard- for crew wt. and use that. This takes out the variables of wind, skill, luck, etc.

Otherwise, you are going by who is having a good day, vs. who is having a bad day and if the conditions favored a light boat or a heavy boat.

http://www.watersportverbond.nl/content.asp?me_id=481

Give this a look.

The "new" F18s as you call them are no faster than the "old", what happened is that the due to the competition the crews have gone faster. (Lots of training, races, trim, experience).

The rating system you want is called the Texel Rating, no need to reinvent the wheel.
http://www.watersportverbond.nl/content.asp?me_id=468

(PTP: It was meant as a joke, its only about 7 degrees overhere!
But training will resume Nov 30th, hopefully it will not be freezing too much by then).

[quote=Tony_F18(PTP: It was meant as a joke, its only about 7 degrees overhere!
But training will resume Nov 30th, hopefully it will not be freezing too much by then). [/quote]
its all good. hard to get the drift sometimes. I hate the obvious being pointed out - that we spend too much time on the computer.... but it isn't like I wouldn't rather be sailing. it is about 40 deg F here now.

correction: I see two ratings for N17s.

F17 sloop 104
Inter 17 109

Tony F18 said:The "new" F18s as you call them are no faster than the "old",

So I guess all those guys, and Hobie, are just wasting their money buying new Caps, Infusions and the New Tigers, right? And that's why we just saw -only- the two New F18's in the top 10 at the N/A's, right? And that's why Nacra has re-invented their F18 about 4 times in the last 5 years, right? Because the new ones are NOT faster, right? Get real.

Tim,
you alright? seem a little touchy today.

I've just about had it with these F18 guys who spend all their time on the F16 forum. How much time do we spend on theirs? To imply or say that the new F18's are not faster than the old is just plain silly.

And just for you there, thin skinned F18 Tony, hanging out on the F16 forum;

I'm sorry I called the F18 sailors Nazi's. If that really offends anyone, I'm very sorry.

It was a lame attempt at a joke becuse in our local fleet we do have one guy we like to call "The Nazi" and right now, he is sailing an F18, but sometimes he sails a H16 too. And he's anything but a Nazi.

He would look good on a Blade however!

You guys are wearing me out.....:)


Let's talk about something else.

How about giving me some tips that I might need for when I get my new Viper I just ordered!!!!

I can start another thread if you guys like.


I'll take them from anyone!!!


Mike

Decide if you are going to be primarily 1-up or 2, there's a big difference.

Try to keep the pointy end up! I'm dead serious! This is a whole new ball game!

Recognize that this is a more complex boat, allow more time for set-up and tear down. Robbie and Matt zip right through this, mere mortals take longer.

When you're flying the spin, always be aware of the main sheet. It acts as a back stay. If it comes loose, you could break your mast.

Be very clear in your mind about the righting drill, you'll need it.

A new thread is probably a good idea. Timbo and I sometimes get carried away!

Congratulations on the new boat! You're gonna love it!!

. . . And, if there's no pictures, it didn't happen!

. . . And, ATRS (Alabama Trash Righting System) carry a couple of heavy plastic bags to fill with water to help with the righting process.

Mike, congrats on the new boat. You might want to start a new thread however, I'm sure many have had enough of this. You might want to start it on the F18 forum though...they seem to know everything about everything and don't mind sharing when you are wrong.

But seriously, the Viper is a fairly new boat to market so I don't know how much knowledge is out there yet. Go with the factory settings for now.

ya know, I tried that and it was pretty difficult to do... maybe I didn't have the technique down

Thanks so Far!!!

Like I said, I'm trying to lighten it up a little bit.

It's was getting a little hot for being early fall.

I'll start another thread though.


Mike

OR SCHRS

Thanks for that Scooby, I couldn't find a Blade type F16 on there anywhere, it just says, "Refer F16" So what is that number, for comparison to the F18, which also says, "Refer F18"? Is it the same as the Spitfire, Uni and 2 up?

Formula 16 1.008
Formula 16 Cat Boat 0.982
Formula 18 1.005

Being a MEASUREMENT system, SCHRS differentiates between uni & sloop.

In practice, in the UK at least, F16s in either mode sail at 1.01 which is the same as the F18 - (1.005 rounded to 1.01).

Look at the 'Formula 16' rating, there is no separate rating for each design, there is just one rating of the box rule (interesting, knowing that the box rule doesn't limit the daggerboard area and that the area is necessary for the rating calculation...).

Anyway SCHRS values:

F16 uni 0.982
F16 duo 1.008
F18 1.005

Why isn't there two rating for the F18, one for the "big" rig, one for the "small" one is beyond me. Scooby can probably explain.

so does that mean if i buy a f16 and you guy's go to a new rating system than it will rate even faster than it does now???? i thought i could ignore all this negative stuff i see here but it looks like you guys are getting some bad karma from your actions??//

I love it when a stranger with one post come in to stir in some crap that makes no sense. Makes me wondering who created a new account...

Anyway, I'm going to answer that. SCHRS is not a "new rating sytem". It is the ISAF sanctioned rating system for small cats. It is measurement based. This is the rating system used in all civilized places for handicap catamaran racing (That was a flame bait, let's see who bites!).

Texel is another rating system, used by the Texel race once a year, which is also measurement based.

Measurement rating will never change, unless the boat changes as well. There is no 'adjustement' over time, sending of race result to a central point, and changes of rating from one year to the other based on whim, peer pressure or exceptionally good result from one guy.

For the subject at hand it is important to note that the difference in minutes after an hour of racing between .982, 1.005 and 1.008 is barely significant anyway: just a little over a minute. You are more likely to lose the race because of a really bad tack than you are from the rating...

And to conclude, handicap racing is an approximation, there is no fair way to compare apples and oranges anyway. Sail your F16 with other F16, your F18 with other F18 and see how you compare.

I'll bite, but not really. I just think we should get away from a report based system because, it's a lot of work, prone to human error, and always out of date.

So why SCHRS instead of Texel?

Use either, it doesn't really matter. They're pretty close anyway. But SCHRS is nominally the official ISAF system, whereas Texel is really only used in Holland.

hey just a guy who wants to buy a f16 and am confused, sorry if you thought it was crap. there has been a lot of disscussions about the speed rating and wanted some info. and you guys all seem to have alot of the answers, am i asking in the wrong place? or is this just angry friday?

Angry Friday. Buy a boat, go sailing.

The F16 has one rating for one up and one for 2 up.

Ditto the F18.

Spitfire is only raced 2 up; if someone wants to race it one up; get an ISAF measurement certificate and you can.



We rate the dagger board at the values that provides the fastest rating.

As for the small rig F18; if you wish to sail as such, you need an ISAF measureemnt certificate to show you are sailing with the small rig in a handicap event, that certificate will have the rating on it.

There are a few bruised egos on here and you'd need to have been here a while to know the background and whether they are justified in feeling as they do.

If you are genuinely interested (I'm not saying you're not), introduce yourself, then ask your questions. F16 in the USA can't, in isolation, go to 'a new rating system'. The standard handicap rating system in the USA is Portsmouth and that is, in all liklihood, the way it'll stay. Changing to a different system shouldn't, in theory, make one design faster than another per se. But in the case of moving from a results based system (Portsmouth) to a measurement based system (SCHRS, Texel) what it can do is remove the anomalies and discrepancies inherent between designs and types as a result of differences in quality of sailors in the two classes.

that is what i want to do but am confused as to b cat or f16

angry friday actually.
the speed rating, according to the USSailing DPN number, which is used for most everything open class in the US is not accurate and maybe not as accurate as other systems. as others have said, it is apples to oranges and if you are a hard core racer then maybe a one design class would be best or only race within your class. The F16 rating may indeed get faster or slower... but likely faster. If they keep beating N20s on elapsed time then maybe the number should be closer to that.
Just seems odd to me that our number changed mid season, and there is plenty talk about the N17 having a gift rating but that I do not think has ever changed.
What is nice about the F16 crowd is that we pride ourselves on elapsed time, not corrected time when I see race reports. No one on here has bragged about correcting out above this or that.

and there is an understandable amount of reservation about posters with no history

You'll have to explain that for me.

do you get trophies or points for elapsed time i used to drag race so i understand that
Tim Tuliwitski

not in open class racing. In class racing you do.

why no points or trophies in open class racing? so does this mean i should only race in the class?
Tim

you don't get trophies for elapsed time in open class, only for corrected time.

Some times a trophy for "Line Honors" is awarded. That would be for the first boat to cross the line, regardless of handicap. It depends on the people putting on the regatta.

My club, http://www.gulfportyachtclub.com/index.html , gave a nice bottle of rum for line honors in a regatta last year.

so that means there is some sort of handicap system like golf or bowling
Tim do i have to keep putting my name here, as one person got mad, and i do not know the rules around here with all you guys

no

You can fill in your "profile" and your name will automatically show at the bottom of each of your posts. Fill in as much or as little as you like.

There is a handicap with boats of different types i.e. when I sail my F16 against A Class cats. When I sail against other F16s there is no handicap. It is simply the order of finish. Often, the results are mixed. For instance, tomorrow I will be sailing with 5 F16s, which constitutes a fleet, and 5 or more A Cats, who constitute their own fleet. The result will be recorded as Portsmouth (all boats combined and rated according to handicap) and as individual fleets (by order of finish). So, there will be a Portsmouth winner, an A Class winner and a F16 winner. To further complicate it, the Portsmouth winner will likely be the A Cat winner.

Clear as mud!?

there is not a handicap system, i am confused i sure i am not as good as you

I'll take a crack at it:

As Pete said, when racing with other F16 (5 in a race constitutes a class) we race against each other. First across wins (no handicap system is used...regardless of boat configuration uni (single handed) or sloop (two person crew)).

If we sail in an "Open" class, which means there aren't enough boats of one kind to make a class..all the boats are handicaped by a "Portsmouth Number". You can learn more about how the portsmouth number works here .

The elapsed time of each boat is "corrected" based upon their porstmouth number. These times stacked lowest time to highest time. Lowest time wins...

The "handicap" is based on the type boat you are sailing, not on your personal ability, like in Golf or in Drag racing. It exists so that a bunch of different type cats can all race together, finish separately, do some math, determine the winner per the math. If instead of a mixed fleet (what we call an 'Open class fleet') all the cats are of the same type, there is no need for the handicap and the first boat across the finish line wins, no math involved.

When we race as a fleet, first across the line wins.

When we race in a Handicap fleet, a rating is applied to your finishing time to factor this time against the "handicap" (or rating) for the boat. A example will assist:

Boat A has a handicap of 1.00 (on SCHRS)
Boat B has a handicap of 1.01 (on SCHRS); this boat is slightly SLOWER
Boat C has a handicap of 0.99 (on SCHRS); this boat is the fastest of the 3.

If all 3 boats sail a race....

Boat C finishes the race in exactly 99 minutes
Boat A finishes the race in exactly 100 minutes
Boat B finishes the race in exactly 101 minutes.

We can now convert their finish time into a "corrected time" based on their handicap:

Corrected time = finish time / handicap

C = 99 / .99 = 100
B = 101/1.01 = 100
A = 100/100 = 100

So in this race all 3 boats had the same "corrected time" and so are scored equal.

In the next race the finish times are

Boat C finishes the race in exactly 98 minutes
Boat A finishes the race in exactly 100 minutes
Boat B finishes the race in exactly 102 minutes.

C = 98 / .99 = 98.99 mins (sorry, decial minutes!)
B = 102/1.01 = 100.99 (")
A = 100/100 = 100

So in this race, C wins, A is second and B is last; this suggests that C sailed best, then A and B worst.

In SCHRS and Texel the handicap is derived by taking measurements from the boat and then calculating how fast the BOAT should sail. In PY/Portsmouth, the handicap is derived by the performance of the boat (and those that sail them) against other boats. Most cat sailors believe that SCHRS and Texel are better as they calc the rating based on measuring the boat and so crew skill has no effect on the rating calculated.

Because PY/Portsmouth provides ratings based on the performance of the boat when being sailed, the skill of those sailing the boat has an impact on the rating calculated.

PY?Portsmouth also needs RESULTS to calc a rating SCHRS/Texel does not; measure the boat (offically) and plug the values into the calculation engine (you can download the SCHRS one from the front page of the site) and you have the rating

Bingo! Thanks for that excellent explanation Scooby!

And on the Mean Friday thing?

It's Halloween!!

Did I scare you?

Sweet baby jesus, what is wrong with you guys? 14 pages for a simple question... Attacks on just the stupidist stuff to boot.

Change oyur preferences, it's only 5 pages for me

This is really "The Test" in stealth mode. Besides, Ding won't let me talk about petroleum... or politics.

I mis-spelled stupidest. Who's stupid now?! LOL

Karl, unless you fully understand what the underlying issue is, and you don't because it's a local issue, you can't begin to understand why and who, we are talking about, and just how stupid that protest was. It's too bad some people take it so seriously and want to ruin it for everyone else.

Tim there was a protest? a real life protest? not a virtual protest, this is interesting.

**** and mean spirited I don't even want to discuss it here. I was not involved but I really don't like the turn things have taken in a local "fun" type race, it's not -fun- when people pull that crap, and then they wonder why attendance is down.

Thats fubared, they had to go behind the F16s back and cry to US Sailing? That is some serious chickenpoop. I was protested in this year's alter cup by Nigel Pitt. His argument was I was "too close" to the race course. Talking to other sailors they all agreed I was not close at all, no one else bothered, but seeing how he was running for the top echelon and he did really shitty on that race he had to blame someone. This is the same race he had the collision with Mike Krants. He lost the protest against Mike and won against me, he got a redress.

Absolute BS in my opinion, when all other sailors that were in front of Nigel clearly said I was fine, the sailors on the spectator boat said I was good and the fotos came out great.

But hey, you live and learn how to pick who is who on the water. For this reason you will NEVER EVER see me at spring fever. Sometimes protesting is a lame attempt to blame others for poor performance.

But then again, seeing how a majority of us here are not top notch sailors no one cares. More reason for me to just stop traveling when I got tons of GYC racing and I store my boat with the mast up.

Now I understand where you are coming from Timbo. I tried PMing you, but no joy.

Also isnt there a place we can read about this protest? Arent protest usually published and made public record?

NOTICE TO F16 POSTERS:

Guys, this topic has had plenty of "air"...it's becoming unproductive.

Not to muzzle the discussion, but we need to take the high road. What's said is said, and what's done is done.

Let's focus on us (passionate sailors who choose the flexiblity of a platform capable of 1-up or 2-up sailing).

Our best action(s) are to grow our fleet [have FUN] and always race as a class. Then all of this discourse doesn't matter.

Stay focused and not get caught up in the "noise".

my 0.02
Terry

I think you guys (F16 sailors) need to work out what you want.

If your boat's are so fast (ie as previously claimed many times, as quick as an F18) then why not be happy with the same rating? Yet I see that the rating given to the F16 is higher than the F18 for the upcoming area D event. So isn't that to your advantage?

If there is say another boat out there that is technically inferior and in theory slower than the F16 then why not be happy that it has a higher rating? It simply proves what you all have been raving on about for years. The slow, low tech boats are not as quick as the high tech super F16's?

As for changing crew, sail config etc. Its simple, you enter a regatta in one setup and you remain in that for the duration. If you want to do it any other way then go sail 12,14,16,18ft skiffs, they love changing sails, masts, crew whatever!

Now i'm not suggesting that this serious approach is needed at a club race but I think you need to be more seroius when you are at a regatta that has outcomes such as qualification for something else or a ranking series.

For all F18 class events in Holland the crews get weighed and any changes to crew or equipment are handled by the usual request procedure. Its not hard to stay within the rules is it?

This is hilarious, and it hasn't involved Macca v Wouter. Guess the curse of being an internet created class by community census? (Hope I got proved wrong in the long run)

so are you saying that these f16 are not handicaped correcttly and they want different rules then everyone else? is this a benifiet for me as a new cat sailor,or should i stay away from this sort of thing.

ok... now I think this guy is BS

sorry just asking questions as some times what i see here is very confusing to me as new sailor. is this the wrong place to ask for help? i said it the other day why are you guys so angry. is this like a frat hazing i must go thru?

First off I'm not a F16 guy, I think its a smart platform and an appealing idea, many on here know that anyway. I just asked the question, as I said in the first post, out of curiousity.

You aren't being hazed, but your questions have a bit of "troll" vibe to them. If you are geniune and not one of the critics who just comes here to nag on people like Macca does, just with a new username you'll get the information you're looking for.


The handicap system isn't for you, its for the boat. It doesn't matter how good of a sailor you are or aren't the handicap number for the boat does not change.

US sailing (or what ever the Portsmouth admin team are called) set the handicap not the F16 fleet in the US.

Macca, could not agree more.

It sounds (to me) that someone is taking it way too seriously and created a local issue....

Spot on! The issue is whether or not a father can take his child (about 40 lbs.) sailing! On day one the father opted to sail uni for a down wind run that resulted in some carnage. The following day, the father added the jib, picked up his son and beat upwind for the return leg and was promptly protested! This event is a two day distance race, attended locally, and noted for the party.

The protestor in this case is none too popular with the A class members, where he usually races.

Well, if I was going to do a distance race and wanted the most advantage I would run solo for the downwind and throw a crew and jib on for the upwind.

I can easily see how people wern't so happy. Sure the intentions we honest but its hard to find a balance.

Fine. Please stay in Australia.

Not in Australia.

Macca, the issue is this event is known as a happy-goodtimes-lets have fun race. Nothing official just a yearly slay ride down and up a river.

Sometimes exceptions can and should be made. If you see a father taking his young child out, that maybe weighs 50lbs wet why are you going to go through the trouble of filing a protest? Even when the day before your boat suffered massive damage and you have NO chance in the world to win or even participate in the event? You tell me why would an individual go through that trouble? Again, sometimes we need to step back and look at the big picture.

Robi, I guess it comes down to where the line is drawn and how matters are handled at the time of the issue arrising rather than afterwards.

I will give an example that is quite recent: At the F18 Worlds in Nigran it was noted that quite a number of boats did not comply with a rule that was introduced after the last Europeans. The rule was safety related and was there for a very good reason. Essentialy a minimum size of window was specified for both mainsail and jib yet many sails did not comply.

Now, would it be fair to tell those boats to either get their sails fixed or dont race?

The sailmakers who made the offending sails were all present at the meeting when the rule was agreed upon.

So how do you deal with it? Stick to the rule and tell them to sit on the beach? or work out a way to keep the event rolling?

In the interests of the event and good sailing a deal was struck that allowed the offending boats to race, but it could have very easily gone the other way and we would have seen a LOT of boats not sailing.

Essentially, it comes down to people being resonable on both sides. If in your example, a request was made and approved then I see very little avenue for someone to make a big deal out of it. But I do see your point about it being an informal fun event.

But I thought the bigger issue here was to do with the potential to change config for an Alter cup qualifier? That would appear to be a much bigger problem.

That is not the main reason behind the gripe here. Someone is trying to make an example out of nothing and has left a sour taste in a good amount of sailors including folks from this individuals class.

Dude!
You- "F18 Worlds".

Us-"happy-goodtimes-lets have fun race".

There's a difference. You don't seem to grasp it.

Ok Pete, then why are F16 entering an Alter cup qualifier? is that a "happy-goodtimes-lets have fun race"?

and is the Alter cup itself a happy, fun regatta like your 2 day cruise up and down the coast? I seem to remember F16's even being used in the Alter cup?

Or maybe I have missed it and F16 is actually just a class for people to simply sail on a social basis with no intention of proper racing at all? If thats the case why even bother with rules? Just have a "run what you brung" class and when the day is over you can all sit around the campfire and swap stories about how great the day was, simple hey!

Or even more to the point, why bother submitting your class rules to the ISAF conference in Madrid next week?

Some people take the weekend club race deadly serious, others go to a Worlds to relax and have some fun. But you can't be the one to judge then for their approach to an event.

If their behaviour is unreasonable to you but within the rules then I guess you just have to suck it up and deal with it. Or go play elsewhere.

Pete,

I think Macca does understand.

Would the protest have happened if the change was not fron single handed to 2 up, but from light crew to heavy crew for the return upwind leg? I'd wager it would have happened.

Did the father ask permission to make the crew change (from none to one)?

Now, this maybe a fun race, but someone (the protestor) was obviously taking it seriously!

If I had been in the same situation I would have done the following:

1, Submitted a request to change setup and crew for the return trip, I'd expect it to be denied.
2, Assuming it was denied, I would still sail the return trip with my son, but either not cross the finish line, or, cross the finish, get a time recorded and then retire and then by the person who was working out the results a beer to calculate where I would have finished.


IT DOES sound like the protestor has taken this race way-to-seriously, but we live in a world where some people take EVERYTHING seriously.


I would put it down to experience, maybe avoid the person involved and move on.

Different events mean different attitudes.

Casual weekend outing- casual weekend rules.

Qualifier for National Championship- much higher degree of rigor.

But you can? I'm done.

Rick! Where's the ignore button?

Actually pete, im not judging them at all. I am simply pointing out their right to approach a regatta in whetever whay they feel appropriate.

It seems that maybe you don't get it...

Simply reading my post will tell you that I'm not condoning the reaction from this mystery person but I am backing their choice to approach the event in their own way as long as it's within the rules.

Now you want to use the "ignore" button to back out of a discussion that's not going your way?

Here's a serious question. Can a sailor who is not even sailing in the race, protest another sailor who is?

In the above scenario, the sailor filing the protest about the dad adding the son was not even out on the course, because 10 minutes into day 1 racing he busted his mast. He then protested the dad sailing Uni for getting help righting his boat, fair enough, we all know you can't get outside assistance. But then, on day 2, from the beach, protested adding the jib and kid, while another boat, left his spinnaker kit on the beach and was -not- protested.

How -fair- is that?

This was a personal vendetta type move, nothing more, and the last I heard, the protester has reconsidered and dropped his protests.

So maybe once he got home and cooled off he realized he was making a big deal out of nothing. Oh, the only reason the kid was not on board on day 1, he had a soccer game, nobody was trying to -go light- downwind and then heavy upwind.

Like I said, it's local, let it go. But, back to my original, serious, question, can a sailor who is not in the race but on the beach, file a protest against other sailors who are racing? And, if you were "flicked" on day 1, can you change your config. and race day 2?

If they are entered in the regatta then they can protest.

Moss is not going to win any sportsmanship awards. I think I could have disqualified them at the RTI for talking trash and literally saying they were someone else. Kind of wish I had tried.

The more I hear about this, the more it sounds like one person has thrown their toys out of the pram and is making a bit of a reputation for them selves and those protested should let it was over them and not worry about it. It's nowt to do with the F16 rules and all to do with one persons personal issues.

Walk away chaps....

I agree ... nothing good is coming of this.