Catsailor.com

Another F16 Blast.

Posted By: HJS

Another F16 Blast. - 11/10/09 02:47 PM

I have just read an email from Chris Sproat that I thought you might be interested in.

We have just won the Weston Cat Open which incorporated the UK Nacra Nationals. This was 57 boat mixed fleet start including most of the UK F18's. There were five races (one discard) and we won with 7 points, including one race won over the water!

The conditions were flat water with wind strength from force 2 - 4. Upwind we could match the F18s for height and speed. Down wind the F18 was marginally faster in the lighter conditions but not when the wind strength increased.

There were significant gusts in the wind which seemed to suit us.

I think we have made an impression by stealing the Nacra thunder. Bloody marvelous long may it last.
Posted By: Wouter

Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/10/09 03:58 PM


Full results can be found here

http://www.weston.org.uk/site/news/archive/2009/Catamarans_2009OpenNov.htm


Very well done by Chris Sproat and Georgina Burke indeed.

I guess this is what the F16 class needed. The best of boat design, sailor skills, regular training and an active cat sailing scene coming together in order to show what "it" can do in a respected fleet.

Marvelous !

Wouter

Posted By: GBR6

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/10/09 04:53 PM

I'm not sure this did anything for the F16 class in the UK; it was sailed as a Viper and off the 104 handicap, had it sailed as a F16 I do not believe it would have won the event. Fantastic performance from a 16ft boat though and it does look great.
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/10/09 05:51 PM

What was the difference between a Viper and a F16 Viper?
Posted By: pepin

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/10/09 06:08 PM

Originally Posted by Rolf_Nilsen
What was the difference between a Viper and a F16 Viper?
None. But the Viper is heavier than the minimum weight for a F16, hence its rate.
Posted By: waynemarlow

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/10/09 06:10 PM

About 20 kilos in weight, has anyone measured the Viper yet ? as I beleive the one that originally came to the UK was a pre production heavy weight, still to beat the F18's on the handicap Chris used is still pretty impressive.

I wonder how many Spitfire sailors will jump on board the Viper bandwagon now that Chris is doing so well.
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/10/09 06:22 PM

It could be 100kgs over min weight and it would still be an F16 if that is the case. Rules dont specify max. weight. smile
Posted By: GBR6

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/10/09 06:28 PM

No, but it was sailing off a considerably more generous rating. None the less it takes nothing away from the boats performance or from it's performance at Grafham a few weeks ago when it was leading the many times UK F18 champion over the water until it took a swim!
Posted By: waynemarlow

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/10/09 06:28 PM

Ah but by being 20 kilos over Chris can claim the softer handicap of the 104 class.

I have to say maybe we should all do that at mixed competitions. However it should only be considered if the 10 kilos of beer I have consumed trying to keep up with MarkP plus the 10 kilos of extra lard, will be considered in my case as to be boat weight
Posted By: macca

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/10/09 08:36 PM

Not that I am here to stir **** but if you run the results from Weston with the fabled F16 yardstick you will see a different result...

So if a Viper wins the intergalactic challenge this week, maybe you should look at increasing the min weight of the boats as it clearly has no performance advantage and you will benefit from a ratings advantage which in this case has resulted in the best F16 result that I have seen to date.

Posted By: scooby_simon

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/10/09 09:57 PM

Originally Posted by macca
Not that I am here to stir **** but if you run the results from Weston with the fabled F16 yardstick you will see a different result...

So if a Viper wins the intergalactic challenge this week, maybe you should look at increasing the min weight of the boats as it clearly has no performance advantage and you will benefit from a ratings advantage which in this case has resulted in the best F16 result that I have seen to date.



I'd suggest that if Chris was sailing a fully optimised F16 on the F16 handicap he would have also won the event.

Chris is a feckin good sailor. Simple as that.
Posted By: Robi

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/10/09 10:27 PM

Originally Posted by macca
Not that I am here to stir **** but if you run the results from Weston with the fabled F16 yardstick you will see a different result...

So if a Viper wins the intergalactic challenge this week, maybe you should look at increasing the min weight of the boats as it clearly has no performance advantage and you will benefit from a ratings advantage which in this case has resulted in the best F16 result that I have seen to date.

The boat has nothing to do with winning the "Intergalactic, Global, Universe, Championship of the all the planets in the whole wide Milky Way" look at the folks driving the Vipers...
John Casey, Gregg Goodall, Robbie Daniels, I bet if you put any of those drivers on a piece of plywood with satin sheets as sails they will beat all of us mortals.

I believe its in the best interest of the class not to go down the entire "that boat is better" road.
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/11/09 12:39 AM


Quote

Not that I am here to stir [censored] but if you run the results from Weston with the fabled F16 yardstick you will see a different result...



Maybe, but also maybe not !

Afterall, the report said ".... including one race won over the water!"

I'm not convinced that Sproat and Burke had much need for the softer handicap.

Of course it does help but I personally feel that a 2nd place score in this fleet would be just as impressive as their overall win. Note that the 3rd place holder is another 7 points further behind (14 points in total). That constitudes some leeway in their advantage.

I think Chris and Georgina did very well in a tough fleet of state-of-the-art catamarans.

Wouter

Posted By: macca

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/11/09 01:14 AM

I know Chris and Georgina and they are great sailors.

My point is that they were sailing a 1.04 boat and not an F16 (as per rating)

If the Viper is quicker than the other F16 boats (as we will see this week in Florida) then why does the class persist with a handicap that is worse than it could be for the same or better on the water performance?

Posted By: Dazz

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/11/09 01:32 AM

Originally Posted by macca


My point is that they were sailing a 1.04 boat and not an F16 (as per rating)

If the Viper is quicker than the other F16 boats (as we will see this week in Florida) then why does the class persist with a handicap that is worse than it could be for the same or better on the water performance?



are you saying the the rest of the f16's should add 20 kilos of correctors to get up to 104 handicap and that they will be faster as well??? or not significantly slowed down???

I am still trying to come to terms with Wouter describing a fleet of F18's as "state-of-the-art"

Posted By: macca

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/11/09 01:40 AM

The Viper is clearly the best "F16" boat at the moment and its 20kg heavier than the F16 rule permits as a min.

So if it can win regattas at its design weight of 125kg and its design handicap of 1.04 then I fail to see any advantage in using another F16 design that is slower on the water and has a worse handicap.

It may be possible that if you added 20kg to another design it wouldn't suffer as much in performance as it gains in rating...

And I too had a chuckle at Wouter's little comment at the State of the art F18.... I love them as a class but to call it state of the art is just a little out there!
Posted By: HJS

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/11/09 01:42 AM

With regard to the weight issue... How about checking out the weights of the boats at this years global challenge? There are very few boats less than 120kgs.

A couple of the older Taipans are near the weight limit, but the VIPERS, BLADES & FALCON are mostly above the 120kgs!!
Posted By: Robi

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/11/09 02:29 AM

As far as weights are concerned I have no idea where they are. I do know the Vipers are indeed heavier. But what makes them the best F16?

That is like saying the Capricorn is better than the Infusion or the Infusion is better than the Wildcat.

If viper wins the GC this week its not the boat, its the people sailing the boat.
Posted By: pdwarren

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/11/09 02:48 AM

Originally Posted by HJS
A couple of the older Taipans are near the weight limit, but the VIPERS, BLADES & FALCON are mostly above the 120kgs!!


Huh? I saw most of the Blades and Falcons weighing in and I didn't see one over 120.

Paul
Posted By: macca

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/11/09 03:32 AM

Originally Posted by Robi
As far as weights are concerned I have no idea where they are. I do know the Vipers are indeed heavier. But what makes them the best F16?

That is like saying the Capricorn is better than the Infusion or the Infusion is better than the Wildcat.


All the F18' are built to the same weight so its not the same at all.

Posted By: taipanfc

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/11/09 03:58 AM

Really like how "modern" cats are heavier than older cats. Taipan is 20 yr old design, Viper is 2 yr old. Yet the Taipan is 20kgs lighter. And as for F18s, 180kg is just plain ridiculous. Guessing this is progress??? At least you can justify paying more for the boat as there is more in it, haha.
Posted By: macca

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/11/09 04:36 AM

Pay by the KG!!

but seriously, the Viper has much bigger hull volume, this alone accounts for a lot of the weight gain and the beams are massive compared to the tiny Taipan things.

All these things make the Viper faster than the Taipan, so in reality there is progress... More in the shape and stiffness areas rather than the construction methods.

Cost has been contained rather well, if you made a cat with the same tech and weight per Square M as a Moth then it would cost more than a Porsche...
Posted By: taipanfc

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/11/09 04:59 AM

So progress only in design, but not in construction? And costs contained by moving to cheap labour countries (eg Thailand for the Viper). Not quite seeing it.

And for comparing to the moth, the moth costs less (well mine did) but the tech involved in building is a lot more. Don't see construction in beach cats along the same tech lines where it seems to be all a bit agricultural.
Posted By: macca

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/11/09 07:48 AM

But if you built a 16ft cat hull with the same technology as your moth then you would be looking at a very expensive hull.

The surface area alone would be at least 4 times as much as a moth, plus the extra structure to support the larger platform...

Posted By: Hans_Ned_111

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/11/09 08:19 AM

Normally i refuse to response here anymore but i will do now because i hate to see this weight thing again happening.
The fact is that the best sailors are at the Vipers at the moment. When you put Ashby on a 10 kg heavier A-cat ( what type ever)he will probably win because he is the best sailor out there in A-cat. When you are going to put JC on a F16 of 110 kg or less he will probably win because the boat will react quicker and better and he is a very good sailor.
At the moment the Viper is having the best sailors on and then you have the biggest change of winning.
In F18 the minimum is 180 kg and when you have a boat of 200kg with a top sailor who is winning the events will the class than raise the minimum to 200kg. Likely not.

Why is the weight issue of F16 everytime coming back, the class rule is clear on what can be done.

I really do not see the point why F16 is used everytime to discuss his minimum class weight.
It is very frustrating to see this weight crap happening everytime, go sailing and develop the class
Posted By: scooby_simon

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/11/09 08:30 AM

Originally Posted by Hans_Ned_111
Normally i refuse to response here anymore but i will do now because i hate to see this weight thing again happening.
The fact is that the best sailors are at the Vipers at the moment. When you put Ashby on a 10 kg heavier A-cat ( what type ever)he will probably win because he is the best sailor out there in A-cat. When you are going to put JC on a F16 of 110 kg or less he will probably win because the boat will react quicker and better and he is a very good sailor.
At the moment the Viper is having the best sailors on and then you have the biggest change of winning.
In F18 the minimum is 180 kg and when you have a boat of 200kg with a top sailor who is winning the events will the class than raise the minimum to 200kg. Likely not.

Why is the weight issue of F16 everytime coming back, the class rule is clear on what can be done.

I really do not see the point why F16 is used everytime to discuss his minimum class weight.
It is very frustrating to see this weight crap happening everytime, go sailing and develop the class


I assume Macca is just stirring AGAIN because he feels that he needs for some reason.

Sad he cannot just let us get on; I for one like my light boat as I sail single handed.

Tell you what Mac; get the A class to add 20 kg's to their min weight. That's not going to happen.

How about you get Glenn to sail with an A class 20kg over at the next worlds he attends and see if that makes a difference; I bet you cannot "because it will make the boat slower".

The F16 class is not going to vote for a weight change; give up Macca; it's a non starter and you know it; you keep bring this up for some reason, I assume you just want to cause problems. Very ad macca that you have nothing better do.

Move on mate.
Posted By: MitchB

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/11/09 08:59 AM

How much do the various builds of F16's weigh? I would love to see a list!

As far as I know the Viper is around 125kg!? (could be wrong though)

What about the other builds?
Posted By: Jalani

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/11/09 09:02 AM

** Yawn **
Posted By: taipanfc

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/11/09 09:02 AM

Yes the top guys are on the latest and greatest boats, and of course winning.

But in Singapore we have found the heavier Viper isn't winning or dominating against the Taipan when average club warriors are on both types of platforms to the same extent you would expect from a much more modern design. When the rigs are the same (mast/ jib/ main/ spin), then next area to point at is weight and design. 20kg is a major difference.

Example for you are the results here: http://www.csc.org.sg/documents/result/feb09/NatCat09.xls

Wind conditions were 10-15 over 2 days. 8 Taipans and 3 Vipers. When Macca decided to turn up on the second day he won 3 of the 4 races easily, but the rest of the fleet rather close.

Could the addition of weight to the Taipan mean we would see the superiority of the Viper design? Or vice versa, if the Viper came down to a normal weight for a 16 ft boat. Or is it close due to the fundamentals of the F16 rule working? This last bit is hard to argue by anyone for me when a platform is at a "disadvantageous" 20kg overweight.
Posted By: macca

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/11/09 09:42 AM

Originally Posted by scooby_simon
I assume Macca is just stirring AGAIN because he feels that he needs for some reason.



I stir because I am... But seriously, You guys are happy to claim an F16 success when it suits, but the result was achieved on a 1.04 rating which, correct me if I am wrong is not the official F16 rating of 101 which you use to show the world that your super boat is as fast as an A class and F18.

So I am simply pointing out that maybe the performance of the current field of so called F16's is not in line with both the rating and the current class performer boat (the Viper)
Posted By: pepin

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/11/09 10:21 AM

Macca, you're a great sailor. You're a far better sailor than I'll ever be. You do stuff I only dream about (Extreme 40, archipelago raid, you name it). I'm sure you could contribute a lot of things on this forum.

But you're also an butt.

You keep stirring stuff to this forum about weight, and minimum weight, and rating. You obviously have an agenda, I don't know what it is. Maybe the fact that you're a Nacra sponsored guy has something to do with it, maybe not. But just come clean about it, be a man and tell us the *real* reason you have a grudge against the class. Or just get the kiss away from this forum.
Posted By: Jalani

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/11/09 10:43 AM

That's strange, I could swear I just heard the sound of a Galah! smile
Posted By: Hans_Ned_111

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/11/09 10:49 AM

Andrew, is it the class who is doing the ratings, no they are not.When the F16's are sailing against eachother there is no rating involved at all. It is the short coming of the TR that there can be several different ratings when they put it in there calculation. Weight is a major factor in these calculations and the Viper is taking advantage of this, when sailing an open event they can enter like a Viper ( not a F16 ) but they also can enter like a F16 boat and yes TR is different in this, but is this an error of the class and the reason to hack into the class over and over again on F16 class weight. The TR system is just a theoratical system and is not always correct.
See a-class in this system also. A-class is having the same rating as F18 but the F18 is doubeling there sail area downwind is this fair?

Why do the F18's not leave there jib home when sailing an open event and it is really blowing because it will give an advantage of 7 points !!!!!!!!!!. I am sure that the disadvantage of not having a jib can be solved by making another type of main ( size along class rules ) to suite the sailing without a jib. The TR will be 108, everybody is free of doing this when entering an open event but is it then the fault of the class ?.

Chris Sproat did a smart move here and did take advantage of the loophole there is. Is this the fault of the class ?

Why cannot be said that it was a good result sailed by him. Stop. but no it needs another useless discussion.
AHPC is taking marketing advantage of this but is Nacra or Hobie not doing the same when they have good results in an event. I have read so many times the phrases "Hobie Wildcat did it again or Nacra again on top of the fleet" but it is often not telling the exact reason how these results where gained , and often a lot of people do know the reason or circumstances where was sailed in but do you here then. Is it the fault of the class ? that they had agood result. No you will not hear it because it is marketing not wise but is it then still the fault of the class?

Andrew, i would prefer more that if you have something on your mind about F16 that you call me and we can talk about it then start a fight on this CS thing.
Posted By: macca

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/11/09 11:33 AM

Hans,
you are correct. I think the situation will sort itself out.

The Viper will win all the major events because its a better design, then the sales will follow and hence the Viper will be the default F16 boat and the rule will just have this funny little thing in it where the class min weight is 20kg lighter than the boat the bulk of the fleet are sailing. That should ensure stability in the class..

I would like to know why people are ok with a F16 that is 20kg over min weight? if an F18 was 20kg over weight customers would be screaming!
Posted By: Hans_Ned_111

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/11/09 11:43 AM

Andrew,If the Viper will be the majority of the fleet then AHPC did a good job and the F16 class will grow as we all hoping it should do. Yes this little thing will be in the rules and gives stability because it clearly is saying what CAN be done but not MUST be done.

Posted By: GBR6

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/11/09 11:43 AM

I think the original point was that the win was not a win for the F16 class but for an AHPC Viper. I was at the event and I know that the results were originally shown with the Viper on a F16 rating and it did NOT win.
Ultimately a great event, a great boat and even if it had sailed off 101 it would have been (I think) 3rd overall with one over the water clear victory.

Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/11/09 11:51 AM


Guys, he is sucking you into an argument again. Dont bother arguing with him and his agenda, that has been tried earlier to no avail and much bitterness. Arguing with him only gives him credibility and furthers his agenda whatever it is.

We are the F16 class and our class rules are on a firm footing. Macca can huff and puff til he turns blue and it will not change a thing. Argue with him and perhaps lurkers on the forum reading his diatribe will think he have a case (which he dont).


Give Macca a laugh and tell him to move on. His sailing season is obviously over since he have taken up his "I want the F16 class to raise its class min. weight" crusade again.
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/11/09 12:05 PM


Ohh, this question is easy to answer.

The whole idea of a formula rule setup is to have the boat converge to a setup that is the fastest UNDER the giving rules. Maybe the fastest F16 setup is to be found at a boat weight 20 kg higher then the class minimum weight ? What is so wrong with that ?

If this is proven beyond a doubt then the other builders will simply converge to the same number and all is fair. If the reverse is proven then the minimum weight of the class rule will see all boats converge to that over time, even the Viper.

The idea of he weight rule is to limit very exotic construction and therefor limit cost. It is of no importance whether that limit is set by some class rule or law of physics as long as it is set a value that is not to far out there in the way of costs.

In the mean time the class improves itself gradually like other formula classes like the F18 have done. Back 1995 the Nacra Inter18 was dominant, then the Tiger, then Capricorn and now the Infusion. Next year the Wildcat or new Carpricorn again ?

I don't see any instability arising from this situation.

I have never seen the F18 class being in trouble because the 1995 Tiger was no longer of the same performance with regard to the Infusion. Did you ?

Wouter

Posted By: Hans_Ned_111

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/11/09 12:09 PM

Please stop this useless discussion.
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/11/09 12:30 PM



Quote

I think the original point was that the win was not a win for the F16 class but for an AHPC Viper. I was at the event and I know that the results were originally shown with the Viper on a F16 rating and it did NOT win.
Ultimately a great event, a great boat and even if it had sailed off 101 it would have been (I think) 3rd overall with one over the water clear victory.



This is a fair statement, I think.

And I would like to add that the original point on our side is that the F16 class was THE cause that lead to the development of the AHPC Viper-F16. AHPC themselves identify it as an F16 and the F16 class organisation has officially certified Vipers as class compliant (after measuring).

http://www.ahpc.com.au/Brett_Viper.htm

I know as it was one of my tasks as Chairman for the F16 class (2001-2006) to attract new F16 builders and I have had alot of contact with AHPC concerning this boat. It is a bit of a stretch to argue that the Viper isn't a F16 at all.

Other then that I think it is only a smart business move to market the Viper as both a Viper and a F16. Afterall, Hobie did that with the Tiger and nobody can deny its succes in doing so.

1st place or 3rd place; hell, either way a very good result in a 57 boat fleet with the likes of Will Sunnucks, Grant Piggot and anybody else who wanted to become the Nacra F18 UK champion for 2009.

The really interesting question is not whether the rating is off or whatever, but whether the team Sproat/Burke would have done better/worse on a F18 ? Whether the choice to go for a significantly smaller boat held them back at all ?

Even whether any other non-F18 designs like say the much hyped F17 or FX-ones would have seen them end up at the same scoring ?

Looking over the results and the fact that a change to a F18 handicap would only see them drop to 3rd overall, suggests very clearly that the Viper F16 design allows them to realize their talent and skill into impressive results among a fleet of their peers (who sail F18's for example).

And THAT, my friends, has always been the claim of the F16 class that is ones again proven by actual race results

Wouter
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/11/09 12:43 PM

Crikey Wouter!
Could you please stop feeding the troll /and/ crapping all over other classes.

GBR6, sorry you that your nice and positive thread got hijacked.
Posted By: Jalani

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/11/09 12:45 PM

Can someone PLEASE take Wouter's keyboard away???
Posted By: Seeker

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/11/09 02:18 PM

What did you expect from macca? Right out of the box he gave away his true intentions...

"Not that I am here to stir [censored] but..."

and then later...

"I stir because I am"

Why you guys keep taking the bait is beyond me...LOL




Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/11/09 04:28 PM

Originally Posted by Robi
John Casey, Gregg Goodall, Robbie Daniels, I bet if you put any of those drivers on a piece of plywood with satin sheets as sails they will beat all of us mortals.



400 thread count or ???
Boy that would be fun to race! so far i have raced against robbie 2 times.. lets just say.. i never saw him after the starts.. smile
Posted By: scooby_simon

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/11/09 06:51 PM

Macca,

As you appear to believe that 20kg does not matter, how about you get the A class to add 15kg (about the same %) to their all up weight! If you can do this, and do the same in the F18 fleet I'll support you in adding 20kg to the F16 min weight.

Lets discuss this again when the A class is sailing at 90kg and the F18 at 195kg.

Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/11/09 07:05 PM

*laughs*
Posted By: Jalani

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/11/09 07:05 PM

Simon!
I think your keyboard needs 'fixing' with a lumphammer too!!!............. smile
Posted By: macca

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/11/09 08:36 PM

Originally Posted by scooby_simon
Macca,

As you appear to believe that 20kg does not matter, how about you get the A class to add 15kg (about the same %) to their all up weight! If you can do this, and do the same in the F18 fleet I'll support you in adding 20kg to the F16 min weight.

Lets discuss this again when the A class is sailing at 90kg and the F18 at 195kg.



I have a better suggestion: How about I take an F16 and add 20kg to it and see how it goes.... O hang on.... That would be a Viper! And guess what??!! its still faster than all the other F16's!!
Posted By: scooby_simon

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/11/09 08:36 PM

Originally Posted by Jalani
Simon!
I think your keyboard needs 'fixing' with a lumphammer too!!!............. smile


I do not thing ANYONE needs to say anymore until the A is at 90kg and the F18 at 195.
Posted By: Hans_Ned_111

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/11/09 08:56 PM

Please stop this, it is soooooooooo useless.
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/11/09 09:01 PM

What about strapping 20kgs to macca? grin
I think he is just bored now that he is back in Oz.
Posted By: Hans_Ned_111

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/11/09 09:03 PM

Please stop this. It is helping nobody to go on with it.
Posted By: taipanfc

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/12/09 12:37 AM

Wouter finally comes back and you all tell him to stop banging away at his keyboard! Really, there hasn't been much going on here in terms of chatter and posts for the past few months. Thought i saw some tumbleweeds roll through the forum the other day.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/12/09 12:59 AM

not to mention.... he made the most sense of anyone in addressing the issue of min boat weight.

Posted By: Dazz

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/12/09 01:52 AM

This thread is like a train crash in progress... you don't want to watch but can't help yourself smile

Posted By: mikeborden

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/12/09 02:08 AM

Originally Posted by Dazz
This thread is like a train crash in progress... you don't want to watch but can't help yourself smile



Now that right there, is funny!!!!!


Posted By: scooby_simon

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/12/09 05:24 PM

Originally Posted by macca
Originally Posted by scooby_simon
Macca,

As you appear to believe that 20kg does not matter, how about you get the A class to add 15kg (about the same %) to their all up weight! If you can do this, and do the same in the F18 fleet I'll support you in adding 20kg to the F16 min weight.

Lets discuss this again when the A class is sailing at 90kg and the F18 at 195kg.



I have a better suggestion: How about I take an F16 and add 20kg to it and see how it goes.... O hang on.... That would be a Viper! And guess what??!! its still faster than all the other F16's!!


I'm quite happy qith my F16 at 104kg; YOU appear to be the one that believes thatr 20kg does not matter; thus get the A's and F18's to add it first. You do that, I WILL TABLE A CLASS RULES AMENDMENT.

Surely if 20kg does not matter, it should be easy for you to get the A's and F18's to add it.

Talk to me when you've done it and I'll put the amendment forward.

All the F16 sailors I know are quite happy with the boat weight where it is. Get another class to change theirs, I'm sure, if it's true they will just change their all up weight for you.
Posted By: waynemarlow

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/12/09 06:16 PM

Guys without wishing to fan the flames but there is something which we all seem to be ignoring. Should we consider that the F18 has a very very soft handicap rating for such a refined boat. I use the word refined as in it has had a whole load of money thrown at its designs and is now on its about 10th ( or more ) iteration.

In all truth, if the F16's after the equivalent development funding and race refinement that the F18's have had, doesn't live up to its predicted handicap then we may have to think again ( about 10 nano seconds for me , I ain't pushing 125kgs up the slipway when I don't have to ).
Posted By: sailfast

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/12/09 09:40 PM

Hi,
i'm the French AHPC dealer, and could say that weight of the Viper is around 130 kg.
You could look on AHPC website or my one, weight is write at 129 kg.

It is certains, if it'll be possible to made the same boat but only 107 kg, it'll be faster. A lot ? I think not, but it'll be faster.

Only for build a Viper as stiff than now but with a weight of 107 kg, it must be full carbon, and it cost perraps 25 000 €.

My view is are we agree for F16 will be expensive boats or not ?

If yes, all is agree, if not without change we take a risk.

Francis
Posted By: pepin

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/12/09 10:32 PM

Originally Posted by sailfast
Hi,
i'm the French AHPC dealer[...]
Salut Francis! Bienvenue sur le forum. All, Francis is a A cat sailor, he is the french distributor for not only AHPC but also Bimare. He's the guy you need to talk to if you want a special F16 build from a bimare X16...

And if you need any hardware at a nice price in Europe, he can deliver to, I'm a satisfied customer. Great service.
Posted By: HJS

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/13/09 04:10 AM

Thumbs up Francis!!! You have hit the nail on the head.

AHPC no doubt could build a production F16 quite a bit lighter... possibly even to the minimum weight. But to retain the positive attributes such as sniffness that the Viper currently has it would need to have a lot more CARBON in the construction - including Carbon Beams and mast..... This would definitely add dollars. Just look at the cost of an A-Class!!! Do you really want your boats to cost MORE than an A-Cat?
Posted By: scooby_simon

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/13/09 08:40 AM

Originally Posted by HJS
Thumbs up Francis!!! You have hit the nail on the head.

AHPC no doubt could build a production F16 quite a bit lighter... possibly even to the minimum weight. But to retain the positive attributes such as sniffness that the Viper currently has it would need to have a lot more CARBON in the construction - including Carbon Beams and mast..... This would definitely add dollars. Just look at the cost of an A-Class!!! Do you really want your boats to cost MORE than an A-Cat?


My boat is mosly Carbon, and did not cost more than an A class; in fact it was almost 1/2!
Posted By: HJS

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/13/09 09:16 AM

Who built your boat?
Posted By: scooby_simon

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/13/09 12:05 PM

Originally Posted by HJS
Who built your boat?


Stealth Marine in the UK.

Standard Stealth Marine Carbon / Kevlar construction which inclused carbon mast

The only extra I have is carbon beams

Posted By: Timbo

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/13/09 01:57 PM

I was told the Vipers are being built somewhere in Asia?

Perhaps they could be built lighter with tighter quality control in the layups?

I have been told that when doing production line type hulls they usually come up heavy as it takes much longer to squeege out any extra resin? I really don't know anything about it (Viper production), but that's what I was told.
Posted By: sailfast

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/13/09 03:11 PM

Hi,
i don't want go in a no way discussion, like we said in French "avec des si on mettrait Paris en bouteille"

I try to neither listen rumor, and speak only what i know, and what i see.

I don't believe to miracle, light, stiff, not expensive have a limit.

For have some ideas

a Viper hull is approximatly 10 kg heavyer than an A class carbone one.
An F18 hull is approximatly 20 kg heavyer than a Viper one.

Now, do you feel hull are heavy ?

I could said Viper is really stiff on sailing, try it if you want ...
but also a Viper is realy strong, customers have already hit a rock at important speed (spinaker and trapeze in 2-up)
daggerboard are a litlle short now ;-) but hulls haven't dammaged. (don't try it)
This day, he doesn't think about weight of his boat, but only broken or not ?

I could jump with my 90 kg on a Viper daggerboard without risk, i don't break it and flex is little.
I couldn't made the same on my A class.
Yes, my A class daggerboard isn't so heavy than my Viper one, and it's strange but my F18 daggerboard is too more heavy than the other ;-)

So a stiff boat, with stiff beams, with stiff rudders, with stiff daggerboards, with epoxy glass build for hulls, etc .... are choices.

These choices give a Viper with his weight, and his price.
And a Viper is a really fast boat and not so expensive, so why change something, all are happy, the mixture give a good result.














Posted By: Timbo

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/13/09 03:29 PM

That is always the trade off, heavy and strong or light and not as strong when you run it aground. In the F16 class you have many options, including building your own boat, which I think is great for the class. And as we see at this GC, the little extra weight the Viper may cary has not slowed them down at all. It's still about who is driving, as it should be, not about what boat they happen to be on today.

You could put the top 3 at the GC today on any of the F16's and they would still be the top 3 to finish.

People get way too hung up on the weight and think they can buy speed. You still have to sail it well if you want to win and a couple kilos is not going to have any effect on that.
Posted By: HJS

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/13/09 08:42 PM

Spot on Timbo.

However, I do think the F16 association really needs to address the weight issue.

For the association to grow, you need the production boat manufacturers onside. Manufacturers who can build 50+ boats a year like Bimare, AHPC... and maybe even NACRA and Hobie.

The minimum weight limit is very, very difficult for these guys to achieve. The boat needs to be affordable, but still ensure that there is sufficient markup to market, distribute and warranty the boat... (not to mention give free advice and feed their own families!)

I know Greg Goodall has made the conscious decision NOT to build the Viper in carbon, or use higher tech strategies as he knows that if he put an optimized VIPER on the water with the cost.... who knows... then this would probably dishearten all those weekend warriors and probably have a devastating impact on the F16 class.

He, probably more than any one of you, wants the F16 class to survive and grow... It gives him a target market to sell his boats...
Posted By: Timbo

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/13/09 08:56 PM

OK, the part I don't get, maybe I'm slow, is where raising the min wt. will grow the class. The class can vote to outlaw carbon fiber hulls, masts, beams, what ever, and I surely do not want to see it go to a Marstrom All Carbon arms race, that will price most of us right out of the class, in fact that is the only thing keeping me from the A class right now, but I have no problem keeping the min wt. right where it is now, and I have not heard -any- F16 Class Members wanting it raised, only a few non-class members.

They are all welcome to join the class, pay their dues, and put it to a vote.

Are you saying it is "Impossible" to mass produce the boat to the present minimum weight? So what's the problem? Get as close as you can.

So who should pick the minumum wt? Some builder in Asia??

Wouter, where did the present minimum wt. come from when you guys wrote the original rules? Was it from the Taipan wooden homebuilts?
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/13/09 10:03 PM

The min. weight came from experience and setting a goal, as pointed out several times in other threads.

HJS, I dont know who you are, and I would like to know. Please give us a presentation.

We had a nasty and provoking persona under the "nom du guerre" of Sue here last year. Since then strangers with controversial opinions on our class rules and absolutely no buy-in or connection to the class are pointed in direction of the membership entry form and the proper way to instigate changes in the class rules. You are certainly free to discuss F16s, sailing etc. but when you begin to argument for a change in our class rules repeatedly please become a member and set about changes the proper way.

Become a member here: http://www.formula16.net/content/view/60/63/lang,en/

You find the class rules here: http://www.formula16.net/content/view/19/34/lang,en/

Sorry if you find this rude, but there are valid historical reasons for asking for presentation.
Posted By: macca

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/13/09 10:35 PM

Originally Posted by Timbo
I was told the Vipers are being built somewhere in Asia?

Perhaps they could be built lighter with tighter quality control in the layups?

I have been told that when doing production line type hulls they usually come up heavy as it takes much longer to squeege out any extra resin? I really don't know anything about it (Viper production), but that's what I was told.


The Viper is built in a top class facility with very highly skilled workers, the output is a top quality product and I would rank this facilty as one of the very best in the world. The methods used to build the Viper are such that quality lamination is ensured, As is consistent weight outputs.
Posted By: macca

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/13/09 10:39 PM

Originally Posted by scooby_simon
My boat is mosly Carbon, and did not cost more than an A class; in fact it was almost 1/2!


Simon, from the above statement and the fact that your boat has cabon beams... can we assume that your boat weighs the same as an A class?? I mean: you have a Kite and associated gear so I will give you 5kg allowance for that, but your boat is 2 feet shorter than and A class. So I expect your boat will weigh in at ... say 80kg??

Or is your boat built with the special heavy weight carbon??
Posted By: macca

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/13/09 10:48 PM

Originally Posted by Timbo
It's still about who is driving, as it should be, not about what boat they happen to be on today.

You could put the top 3 at the GC today on any of the F16's and they would still be the top 3 to finish.

People get way too hung up on the weight and think they can buy speed. You still have to sail it well if you want to win and a couple kilos is not going to have any effect on that.


Tim,



You might like to ask the top 3 if they think the extra 20kg on the Vipers makes the boat any less exciting...

You should also ask those top 3 if they think the racing would be any better if the boats were all 107kg?
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/13/09 11:59 PM


Quote

I could jump with my 90 kg on a Viper daggerboard without risk, i don't break it and flex is little.



We did that to a 1.6 kg Blade F16 daggerboard as made by www.catamaranparts.nl with exactly the same result.

If some designers want to add lots of weight to be extra certain then that is their call, but don't fool anybody that this is NECESSARY.

Wouter

Posted By: Wouter

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/14/09 12:10 AM

Quote

Wouter, where did the present minimum wt. come from when you guys wrote the original rules? Was it from the Taipan wooden homebuilts?



Commericially build and sold plain glass and alu aipan 4.9 = 102 kg

Quite a few Taipans were measured in the range 102-103 kg around 2000.

Spinnaker package can be made for low cost at 5 kg.

Combined they produce 107 kg minimum weight.

I have never heard of Taipans being fragile boat or use exotic materials like carbon fibre or even epoxy resin.

Therefor one can commerically build and sell an F16 at 107 kg min weight in sloop atire.

Well build homebuilds also came in at around 105 kg ex spinnaker.

Now it may be the case that trading off some weight against additional stiffness will make the boat faster overall. But that is of no importance for the class rules. A safe and reasonable prized F16 can be build for 107 kg and that is uncontested. It is up to be buyer whether he or she believes stifness is more important then being lightweight.

And if more weight + more stiffness is faster then why b!tch about the minimum weight at all. You got the faster boat and the lighter ones are disadvantaged relative to you, right ?

With respect to cost. I believe the all carbon Stealth F16 is still cheaper then the most basic glass/alu Viper. There is only so much one can do with class rules; local economic conditions may favour different solutions.

Wouter
Posted By: ratherbsailing

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/14/09 12:46 AM

80% of Commercial built Taipans have Kevlar in the hulls.

Is this an exotic product?

My Timber Taipan F16 was never officially measured but when I weighed it at home with everything it weighed 102kg.
Posted By: Mark P

Re: Another F16 Blast. - 11/14/09 01:17 AM

EXCELLENT SAILING CHRIS & GEORGINA.
I hope you'll be able to make it to some of our TT's etc next year.
Mark
Posted By: Timbo

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/14/09 01:44 AM

Originally Posted by macca
Originally Posted by Timbo
It's still about who is driving, as it should be, not about what boat they happen to be on today.

You could put the top 3 at the GC today on any of the F16's and they would still be the top 3 to finish.

People get way too hung up on the weight and think they can buy speed. You still have to sail it well if you want to win and a couple kilos is not going to have any effect on that.


Tim,



You might like to ask the top 3 if they think the extra 20kg on the Vipers makes the boat any less exciting...

You should also ask those top 3 if they think the racing would be any better if the boats were all 107kg?


Macca, all I need to ask them is if they want the minimum wt. raised and I'm pretty sure they will say, "Why?". Until I hear a good reason, I'm not inclined to vote in favor of it. When did you join the class anyway?

If you are a member, you can vote yes, after you write up a resolution and present it. And then all the lighter Taipan guys will be pissed.
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/14/09 02:08 AM

I for one, (not being an F16 owner), view the minimum weight being where it is to be a draw to the class for me. Nothing to do with performance even, its just because I don't like dragging a 325lb boat up the beach by myself.
Posted By: Phile

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/14/09 02:27 AM

I miss Sue......
Posted By: macca

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/14/09 07:23 AM

Originally Posted by Timbo
Originally Posted by macca
Originally Posted by Timbo
It's still about who is driving, as it should be, not about what boat they happen to be on today.

You could put the top 3 at the GC today on any of the F16's and they would still be the top 3 to finish.

People get way too hung up on the weight and think they can buy speed. You still have to sail it well if you want to win and a couple kilos is not going to have any effect on that.


Tim,



You might like to ask the top 3 if they think the extra 20kg on the Vipers makes the boat any less exciting...

You should also ask those top 3 if they think the racing would be any better if the boats were all 107kg?


Macca, all I need to ask them is if they want the minimum wt. raised and I'm pretty sure they will say, "Why?". Until I hear a good reason, I'm not inclined to vote in favor of it. When did you join the class anyway?

If you are a member, you can vote yes, after you write up a resolution and present it. And then all the lighter Taipan guys will be pissed.


Tim, Ask the top 3 boats at the GC and I think you will be suprised at their answer...
Posted By: scooby_simon

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/14/09 07:48 AM

Originally Posted by macca
Originally Posted by Timbo
Originally Posted by macca
Originally Posted by Timbo
It's still about who is driving, as it should be, not about what boat they happen to be on today.

You could put the top 3 at the GC today on any of the F16's and they would still be the top 3 to finish.

People get way too hung up on the weight and think they can buy speed. You still have to sail it well if you want to win and a couple kilos is not going to have any effect on that.


Tim,



You might like to ask the top 3 if they think the extra 20kg on the Vipers makes the boat any less exciting...

You should also ask those top 3 if they think the racing would be any better if the boats were all 107kg?


Macca, all I need to ask them is if they want the minimum wt. raised and I'm pretty sure they will say, "Why?". Until I hear a good reason, I'm not inclined to vote in favor of it. When did you join the class anyway?

If you are a member, you can vote yes, after you write up a resolution and present it. And then all the lighter Taipan guys will be pissed.


Tim, Ask the top 3 boats at the GC and I think you will be suprised at their answer...


You need more than 3 votres to change the class rules.

As Rolf states above; we have a clearly defined route to changing the class rules.

Posted By: macca

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/14/09 08:30 AM

Originally Posted by Rolf_Nilsen
The min. weight came from experience and setting a goal, as pointed out several times in other threads.

HJS, I dont know who you are, and I would like to know. Please give us a presentation.

We had a nasty and provoking persona under the "nom du guerre" of Sue here last year. Since then strangers with controversial opinions on our class rules and absolutely no buy-in or connection to the class are pointed in direction of the membership entry form and the proper way to instigate changes in the class rules. You are certainly free to discuss F16s, sailing etc. but when you begin to argument for a change in our class rules repeatedly please become a member and set about changes the proper way.

Become a member here: http://www.formula16.net/content/view/60/63/lang,en/

You find the class rules here: http://www.formula16.net/content/view/19/34/lang,en/

Sorry if you find this rude, but there are valid historical reasons for asking for presentation.


Rolf, I don't know who HJS is and have had no contct with them.

However: if you read the first post in this thread, you will see that HJS started by promotng the class, and now you return the favor by attacking their credibility! Nice way to encorage participation!!

just because people dont agree with the out of whack rules the class has does't mean they are trying to destroy the class!

And by the way, "Sue" is now the proud owner of a Viper...
Posted By: macca

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/14/09 08:35 AM

Originally Posted by scooby_simon
Originally Posted by macca
Originally Posted by Timbo
Originally Posted by macca
Originally Posted by Timbo
It's still about who is driving, as it should be, not about what boat they happen to be on today.

You could put the top 3 at the GC today on any of the F16's and they would still be the top 3 to finish.

People get way too hung up on the weight and think they can buy speed. You still have to sail it well if you want to win and a couple kilos is not going to have any effect on that.


Tim,



You might like to ask the top 3 if they think the extra 20kg on the Vipers makes the boat any less exciting...

You should also ask those top 3 if they think the racing would be any better if the boats were all 107kg?


Macca, all I need to ask them is if they want the minimum wt. raised and I'm pretty sure they will say, "Why?". Until I hear a good reason, I'm not inclined to vote in favor of it. When did you join the class anyway?

If you are a member, you can vote yes, after you write up a resolution and present it. And then all the lighter Taipan guys will be pissed.


Tim, Ask the top 3 boats at the GC and I think you will be suprised at their answer...


You need more than 3 votres to change the class rules.

As Rolf states above; we have a clearly defined route to changing the class rules.



Simon,

Tim was making an assumption about the top 3 teams opinion on the issue of class min weight, I was simply requsting that he actually ask hem for their thoughts and post the answers on here.

Whist we wait for those answers, maybe you could confirm what your carbon F16 weighs?
Posted By: sailfast

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/14/09 09:22 AM

Hi Wouter,

I really don't want to have a polemic discussion, or a comparaison of this one is better, this one is heavyer ...there's no interest for that.
Like i'm professional, after I take volontary exemple on AHPC boats i sell, for nobody outside could be feel ofensed.


there's some facts :

A Taipan haven't be devellop for Spi.
Add a spi and few years of experiences on cat design : the shape, volume and stifness of hulls and platform need to be increase.
Viper was developed on these bases.
Like they haven't the same specifications at the begining, a Taipan and a Viper couldn't made the same weight with similar build, at the end it's evident.
So for made a Viper at the weight of Taipan, Viper should be really more expensive than Taipan with an more high tech build.
That's all, there's no polemic around that.

The 2 boats are agree with F16 rules, and sail together in F16

The 2 boats like "production boat" haven't the same rating because their data are differents.
A rating is calculate only on data, there's no adjustement if it's an old or new design, a bad or a very good design ...
so calculator said Viper is slower than Taipan.

All that for me is correct, and need no change.


In A class, build a 75 kg boat with glass hull is possible, no problem, i had an AJ under 75 kg.
Why racer buy all carbon hulls ?

In F18 180 kg is a confortable weight.
It was easy in the past to have boat at 180 kg or a little under.
with new design ...some of them have difficulties for stay at 180 kg, at world boat with weight corrector isn't a lot.
Why ?


After for give some numbers ...

(sorry if power ratio isn't the good term in English but i think you'll understand)

power ratio of an
A class is 340 kg/m
F16 1-up (103 kg) 395 kg/m
Viper 1-up 415 kg/m
F16 2-up (107 kg) 630 kg/m
Viper 2-up (130 kg) 650 kg/m
F18 750 kg/m
Tornado 800 kg/m

Take an A class like references

for made an F16-1 up
power ration increase of 16 % and weight of 37% for a 103 kg boat.

for made an F16 - 2up
you increase power ratio of more of 80 %
but you increase weight of only 43 % for a 107 kg boat. (73% for a 130 kg boat).


Now take an F18 like references

for made an F16 - 2up
you decrease power ratio of only 16 %
but you decrease weight of 41 % for a 107 kg boat, (28 % for a 130 kg boat).

for made an F16-1 up
power ration decrease of 45 % and weight of 43% for a 103 kg boat.


volontary i don't want give my conclusion about ..



My view is only a 25 or 30 K€ boat full carbon, and full victory should accept with smile by the class ?
Posted By: Stewart

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/14/09 09:32 AM

In my experience a fully carbon hull over a fully glass hull is less than 20% in material costs.. This is with the equivalent layup..

Posted By: sailfast

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/14/09 09:49 AM

I haven't the same price base, but it's not a problem.
speak only of hulls is like look by keyhole.
generaly on a cat, hulls are only 40 ~ 50 % of global weight.

Posted By: Stewart

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/14/09 09:56 AM

The Tiapan was originally designed for a kite..
Should be in the Tiapan's history if you care to check up.. But was dropped early in the development.. Being that as it is..

I also do not believe the Viper has any greater build technology in the build than a 80s built skiff.. I also disagree with thinking that a ply hull is any less of a hull than a composite. Apart from the easy of complex curves than be ply hull can be exceptional.

So AHPC wants a bigger and heavier hull *shrugs* so? My only comment is its but its not a class killer.

In my opinion the F18 is way way overweight.. *shrugs* But that is the classes choice.. The only reference one should make to them in reference to the F16 is their rating.

Please remember the weights were calculated to keep the F16 solo and F16 cat on the same benchmark.. Nothing needs changing imho.

Still not sure why one needs to spend that much to make a fully carbon F16..

now I just need time and less traveling so I can get back on the water...
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/14/09 11:23 AM

Macca,

stop making yourself look like a clown. Returning to this Don Quixote quest with the min weight and trying to be smart playing word games. It is not going to happen. If you want to try raising min weight, here is the info you need:

Become a member here: http://www.formula16.net/content/view/60/63/lang,en/

You find the class rules here: http://www.formula16.net/content/view/19/34/lang,en/

Until you do it the proper way, leave the subject alone or get out of here.
Posted By: macca

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/14/09 11:29 AM

Rolf,

I am a paid member of the F16 class.

I have 2 Questions:-

1. What do the top 3 teams at the GC think about the min weight issue?

2. What does Simon's all carbon, super cheap F16 weigh?

No word games, just simple questions that can be answered quite easily.

Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/14/09 11:35 AM

According to the class records, you are not a paid up class member (and I just checked).
You are not an F16 owner either as far as I know. You have no stakes in the class, so:


Stop making yourself look like a clown. Returning to this Don Quixote quest with the min weight and trying to be smart playing word games. It is not going to happen. If you want to try raising min weight, here is the info you need:

Become a member here: http://www.formula16.net/content/view/60/63/lang,en/

You find the class rules here: http://www.formula16.net/content/view/19/34/lang,en/

Until you do it the proper way, leave the subject alone or get out of here.
Posted By: phill

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/14/09 11:43 AM

Macca,
I have been keeping the books for the past 2 years and you
ARE NOT a paid up member of the class.
Posted By: macca

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/14/09 11:44 AM

Maybe the class finances are slow too....

Here is the Paypal Unique Transaction ID: #7MR30369MP184463M

Oh, and I still own a Maricat 4.3, which I believe is F16 compliant....
Posted By: taipanfc

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/14/09 11:45 AM

HJS, her name is Helen. Only guessing, but she is "Helen Goodall". I am sure she can confirm if she is that Helen or another Helen.
Posted By: macca

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/14/09 11:49 AM

Originally Posted by taipanfc
HJS, her name is Helen. Only guessing, but she is "Helen Goodall". I am sure she can confirm if she is that Helen or another Helen.


Dude!! check the Avatar!! HJS is a 2 year old child smile
Posted By: taipanfc

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/14/09 11:50 AM

Hey, was only guessing. Well kids these days certainly grow up fast if already on the net and discussing F16 issues.
Posted By: macca

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/14/09 11:52 AM

Very grown up issues too!
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/14/09 12:01 PM

Originally Posted by macca
Maybe the class finances are slow too....

Here is the Paypal Unique Transaction ID: #7MR30369MP184463M

Oh, and I still own a Maricat 4.3, which I believe is F16 compliant....


I built the software behind the members entry form so I know you had not applied and where not a paid up member when you said so. Phill would know about your application and payment before you could press "Submit" on your post here.
The Maricat fails to qualify as an F16. Dont play childrens games with adults and more word games.

If you eventually become a member, go to the members forum on: http://www.formula16.net/forum/ and present your arguments there. To get a vote on the changes you want you also have to submit a proposal to the GC. You dont stand a chance to get the change through tough. Read up on the class rules and the constitution before you waste more of your time on this quixotic foolery.

Until then:

Stop making yourself look like a clown. Returning to this Don Quixote quest with the min weight and trying to be smart playing word games. It is not going to happen. If you want to try raising min weight, here is the info you need:

Become a member here: http://www.formula16.net/content/view/60/63/lang,en/

You find the class rules here: http://www.formula16.net/content/view/19/34/lang,en/

Until you do it the proper way, leave the subject alone or get out of here.
Posted By: macca

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/14/09 12:06 PM

Rolf,

I filled in the form and paid well before I posted that I was a member. So I think you will find there is an error on the back end...

If you like, I can email the screen shot directly to your email (gmail) address that is given as the paypal account contact?


Posted By: Hans_Ned_111

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/14/09 12:07 PM

This is a very sad thread and so uselessbut maybe the following can be a solution.
Why not go to the F18 forum and start a weight thread overthere why they have a minimum weight rule in there class rules or maybe on the main forum start a weight thread on the minimum weight rule in A-class and start talking why not raise the weight in these classes.

But all fool things in a row , minimum weight is a rule in the class rules and so be it and i do not see any reason to come back on it over and over again.
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/14/09 12:09 PM

*laughs* You are good at trying to blame others and trying to be smart without succeeding. It is a transparent as it can be.

Wait for your confirmation then, and wether the Maricat qualifies, before you take your fancy to the members forum. If you are a member, the members forum is where class business like class rules are discussed.

Until then:

Stop making yourself look like a clown. Returning to this Don Quixote quest with the min weight and trying to be smart playing word games. It is not going to happen. If you want to try raising min weight, here is the info you need:

Become a member here: http://www.formula16.net/content/view/60/63/lang,en/

You find the class rules here: http://www.formula16.net/content/view/19/34/lang,en/

Until you do it the proper way, leave the subject alone or get out of here.
Posted By: macca

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/14/09 12:30 PM

Rolf,

I am not blaming anyone, I am simply stating that I have paid my membership fee and completed the member info form and as such I am a paid member of the F16 class.

You are happy to take my money, but not my opinion??

Oh, and my Maricat meets the class rules, although maybe the mast tip needs a bit of weight... will make sure I bring some lead to the F16 intergalactics next time.. (not that its a pre-requesite for class membership to own a class compliant boat??)
Posted By: Phile

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/14/09 12:34 PM

So "Sue" has acquired a Viper. She could paint it pink and get sponsorship from Ella Bache, just like young Jessica Watson.
Posted By: macca

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/14/09 12:50 PM

Nice idea!!! Sue's better half would be up for it for sure.
Posted By: Hans_Ned_111

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/14/09 12:54 PM

Andrew,

If you are a paid up member of F16 why are you complaining overhere about the F16 and not at the F16 member
forum. If you are F16 member you made a good thought about this choice because i think you did this because you want to be part of F16 and you would like the class as it is otherwise i can image that you would not join. If you don't like something you will not particpate in that when you have the choice.

It is also that when you are a paid up member you will get access to the F16 member forum when you subscribe to the forum.
Posted By: Stewart

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/14/09 01:02 PM

If the top three teams want to say.. they are free to post.. However their words are no more or less than any other members..

Posted By: waynemarlow

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/14/09 01:03 PM

What a load of old bollocks Macca, you of all people know how production boats are built, you of all people know that on modern hull designs weight is not the factor it once was, you of all people know that we have been here before and discussed this very issue at length with the out come being, get your "rule change" into print and let the members vote. After all you were promoting that you had a F16 cat and could be a voting member.

I am really not sure raising the weight is to going to help any manufacturer anyway, the Viper is a seriously fast boat within the F16 class even if it is a few kilos " porky ", so if you already have a very saleable item that is doing well then why change it.

Anyway we all know it has over strength / weight beams, dagger boards and rudder systems designed for its F18 sister, perhaps when the volumes come up a little those items could be slimmed down with little loss of strength and reliability and indeed it would be an even greater boat, just gone on a diet.

What my beef mainly is though that Sproat has chosen the soft option of taking the soft handicap, I certainly would consider ballasting up my boat to gain the soft handicap as it really peeved me to be so far ahead of the F18's in the 3 Piers race and then be way behind them on handicap. They of all boats have a real soft handicap in my opinion.

Mind you it does tell us that the weight factor in the handicapping ratings is now out of skelter with the modern hull design, I'm sure Simon will argue against that but from where I sit the manufacturers making over weight porky boats are being given a huge advantage over a manufacturer who is more weight conscious.
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/14/09 01:17 PM



Quote

Hi Wouter,

I really don't want to have a polemic discussion,

...



Sailfast, all technical issues have been well researched when we started the F16 class back in 2001. This situation is as it is and has been justified many times over since then. Argueing against well established truths is pointless in my opinion.

Since 2004 I personally have a Taipan 4.9 (widened to 2.5 mtr) with a spinnaker and I'm prefectly happy with that design so far. I disagree with anybody who claims that the Taipan can't handle a spinnaker; indeed I experienced more violant pitchpoles while sailing the Hobie Tiger. My own boat uses no carbon fibre or anything and costed me 12500 to build and is still lighter then any Viper version. The reason why the Viper is as it is comes from commercial considerations only, not technical or even costs. It has all to do with available local building facilities, work force expertise and profit margins.

Lets not forget that my Taipan is just as much a viable F16 as the Viper F16 is. I haven't broken any major component yet (while being lighter then the Viper) and it was build by amateurs in a shed behind the house. As a result I don't understand why the min. class weight should be raised so as to DISQUALIFY my Taipan F16 in favour of making the younger Viper F16's look better on paper.

If a company builds a heavier F16 then that is their decision and their "issue" only. This is allowed under the F16 class rules but it is beyond imagination to ask the other class members/builders to disqualify themselves in deference to such a choice. Anybody still enjoying such an idea in his or her is adviced to make an appointment will a physician or neurologist.

Personnally, I feel the Viper is an excellent design that doesn't need any rewriting of the F16 class rules to be competitive or to be marketable to customers. Suggesting otherwise doesn't do the design justice and is higher disruptive to our great little F16 class. But I guess that is the exact intent of some posters here.

With respect to Nacra or Hobie not being able to build a real F16 ;

-1- That is not our problem, but their problem ! (Apparently even I as an amateur beat them on that)
-2- Explain why can Hobie build and market the 100kg or less carbon iCat but not a glass/alu 107-112 kg F16 ?
-3- What should the F16 min. weight be when not a single Nacra sloop rigged spinnaker boat was ever certified as being under 150 kg ready to sail ?

Wouter
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/14/09 01:23 PM


Quote

If the top three teams want to say.. they are free to post.. However their words are no more or less than any other members..


And who is to say that they do not support the current F16 rule set ? I never heard JC for example complain about the F16's being to lightweight (or fragile).

We may find that the opinion to raise minimum weight is also a minority there; among the top racers.

Wouter
Posted By: sailfast

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/14/09 01:58 PM

Wouter,

i think you have'nt understand my view.
sorry with my bad english it's not easy, perraps read again.

neither i speak about change class weight.
made change who exclude some actual boats will be bad.

My view is a good boat in 1-up at weight isn't a problem.

For what i know, you are a lot to sail in 1-up.

in 2-up loads are really differents, in 2-up it's more difficult to have a boat at weight.

Without new class regulation i'm affraid in few years boats will be expensive.

Like said A Viper full carbon will be at weight, faster ...but expensive.

I don't want made a revolution (ok i know it's so French),I only prevent.






-2- Explain why can Hobie build and market the 100kg or less carbon iCat but not a glass/alu 107-112 kg F16 ? Perraps boat is build for 1-up only ;-)
Posted By: Timbo

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/14/09 03:42 PM

I am at home right now but in an hour I will be heading back to Gulfport to watch today's finish of the GC, and I will try to track down the top 3 and ask them what they think. Remember, the number 1 and likely winner is a Viper dealer, number 2 races F18 and is on a borrowed Viper, number 3 is on a Viper as well and depending on today's finishes, number 4 or 5 is Greg Goodall.

The Viper is a great boat, no doubt, nobody has ever said it was not, including me, the debate here is WHY would you (Macca) want to raise the F16 Class minimum wt? And if it were raised, what happens to the Taipans who were the first F16's? Would you have them carry 20 Kilos?

And what if Matt can build a Falcon to say, 102kg, should we then LOWER the class min. wt? It's the same (stupid) argument.

Should the Builders set the rules or the CLASS MEMBERS?

Sounds like Macca wants Nacra rules all over again...
Posted By: Gilo

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/14/09 05:20 PM

Macca,

Does Nacra plan any winter training in Holland? (now that we are off topic...)
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/14/09 06:45 PM

Quote

For what i know, you are a lot to sail in 1-up.

in 2-up loads are really differents, in 2-up it's more difficult to have a boat at weight.



Your first assumption is wrong as I've sailed almost exclusively 2-up for the first 2 years of owning my Taipan F16.

Your second assumption is also wrong in the sense that while the stresses are indeed different, a 107 kg glass/alu F16 can still handle them very well.

Thirdly, both setups were EXTENSIVELY researched when we formed the class rules and we found no technical reason to increase the min. weight beyond 107 kg. That means you can get down to that weight by using plain glass/vinylester/alu construction against justifiable cost


Quote

Without new class regulation i'm affraid in few years boats will be expensive.


We are almost 9 years down the road already and the F16's are STILL 15% or more cheaper then the F18's. I can buy a competitive F16 for 15.000 Euro's while an competitive F18 does 18.000 these days. Up till now alu masted F16's won 2 global challenges against 1 carbon masted F16. The wins are respectively 2007, 2008, 2009 : VWM Blade, a Stealth and a Viper. You can't get a more balanced outcome then that.

Fear is a undependable consultant, facts in life thus far simply do not provide a basis for such angst.

There have been dire warnings of impeding doom ever since our inception and still the F16 class survives and grows.

If there is one thing that I learned from sailing then it must be to not fiddle about with the trim of my sails when I'm ahead. I feel the F16 class is much more helped by this advice. We should strive to only find solutions to actual problems and not the other way around.


Quote

Like said A Viper full carbon will be at weight, faster ...but expensive.


Personally I disagree here; I feel that very little difference between a 107 kg F16 and a 120 kg F16. Weight is simply not such a big factor on modern spi equipped catamarans as was the case in the old days (Dart 18 , hobie 16 etc). We also see this when 125 kg crews race against 155 kg crews.

I also don't believe a FULL carbon Viper is needed to get down to weight. By general claim the Viper hulls are what ? 26 kg ? A 110 kg Blade or Falcon has hulls that weight 24-25 kg and all boats (Viper, Blade, Falcon) use the exact same mast sections. The weight difference between the "light F16's" and Vipers are to be found in the beams, rudder setup and daggerboards. The 2007 global challenge Viper weighted (including repairs) 134 kg and its daggerboards + rudders (combined 15 kg) were already 8 kg heavier then my own AHPC Taipan 4.9 set. Note that my set is 7 kg combined including the storage bag and that the www.catamaranparts.nl set is less then 6 kg. A wopping 9 kg difference for identical retail prices and the lighter sets all survived the Global challenge and the Alter Cup 2007. In constrast Viper boards broke in Singapore.

Like I said in the beginning. The weight of the Viper is a commercially inspired CHOICE, not a necessacity. I agree with Greg Goodall however, that overall weight is not a such big factor in overall performance. Every customer should buy a boat he is happy with and just learn to sail it to the max.

The companies VectorWorks/FalconMarine, StealthMarine, AHPC (Taipan + spi) and Australian Formula catamarans all build F16 (compliant) boats that weight between 107-115 kg in the standard glass/vinylester/alu attire. Upgrades may lower their weights. Amateur homebuilds are in the range 105-120 kg

It is only AHPC who builds a 130 kg F16 as the standard 2-up Viper F16

I think this proofs beyond a doubt that it is the Viper that is the odd one in a pretty straightforward situation.

Wouter
Posted By: sailfast

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/14/09 07:52 PM

Like i already write i don't want polemic, and speak about this one is better, this one is weighter ...
so it's my last post on this subject.

for information, on my Capricorns rudders + daggerboards are only 12,64 kg ... and daggerboards are realy longer and weighter than Viper one ..
I ofen seen Viper dagerboards under 2 kg.

(you could download measurment form on f18.fr if you want)

We'll keep on our position.
i said my feeling, you said your one.

Only futur could said the true.

I hope next season could tell about with you around a beer on a race.
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/14/09 08:09 PM

If you toss in some red wine or liquor instead of beer I would be happy to partake. Which events do you plan to attend?
Posted By: macca

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/14/09 08:38 PM

How about grandfathering all existing F16 boats that are lighter than 125kg?

They are not as quick as a Viper anyway so there is no impact on new (heavier) boats being sold.

And, Gilo.. I have no plans to sail in Holland until it warms up again.. maybe in April!!
Posted By: macca

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/14/09 08:42 PM

Rolf,

It would appear that the treasurer @ Formula16. org email address is not working... perhaps this could explain the issue?

Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Another F16 class rules Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/14/09 08:48 PM

What makes you believe the adress dont work.

Other F16s not as quick as vipers laugh laugh laugh laugh Oh you really are making a fool out of yourself. You intend to take this sillyness how far??


Stop making yourself look like a clown. Returning to this Don Quixote quest with the min weight and trying to be smart playing word games. It is not going to happen. If you want to try raising min weight, here is the info you need, but you are waisting your time:

Become a member here: http://www.formula16.net/content/view/60/63/lang,en/

You find the class rules here: http://www.formula16.net/content/view/19/34/lang,en/

Until you do it the proper way, leave the subject alone or get out of here.
Posted By: macca

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/14/09 08:55 PM

Rolf,

I emailed you a copy of the Paypal transaction page last night and copied the treasuer @ formula16 .org (that address is also shown as a contact on the paypal payment page).

The treasuer email address bounces, so maybe you guys haven't paid your bill??
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/14/09 08:57 PM

It is spelled "treasurer" not "treasuer".
Posted By: macca

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/14/09 08:58 PM

Oh,

I think Vipers won every race at the GC?

i'm sure someone will correct me if I am wrong on this smile

Posted By: macca

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/14/09 09:01 PM

Originally Posted by Rolf_Nilsen
It is spelled "treasurer" not "treasuer".


thanks for the correction, however it may be more relevant if you confirm receipt of my email with confirmation of payment?
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Another F16 rules Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/14/09 09:02 PM

Even from you that is so silly that it hardly is worth commenting. We all know it is not the boat but the crew.


Stop making yourself look like a clown. Returning to this Don Quixote quest with the min weight and trying to be smart playing word games. It is not going to happen. If you want to try raising min weight, here is the info you need, but you are waisting your time:

Become a member here: http://www.formula16.net/content/view/60/63/lang,en/

You find the class rules here: http://www.formula16.net/content/view/19/34/lang,en/

Until you do it the proper way, leave the subject alone or get out of here.
Posted By: macca

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/14/09 09:07 PM

Ahh, yes I have read on here that you could put the top 3 teams on a plank of wood with a cotton sail and they would still win... (or words to that effect)

How about confirming receipt of my email with payment??
Posted By: sailfast

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/14/09 09:12 PM

I don't kow for moment ..

At Eurocat i think their will be 10 ore more Viper this year, but personnaly i'll must be in F18.
With new F18 and world in France it's my priority....

but after Jully i would like sail more in Viper.

Global Challenge 2010 is it already plan ?
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Another F16 rules Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/14/09 09:20 PM

Originally Posted by macca


How about confirming receipt of my email with payment??


I am not going to interfere with the processes taking place in accepting new members. There is a defined process for that like in all well organized classes and I am not part of the process.

Now I answered you, are you going to get smart and not do your Don Quixote act any more?


Sailfast,
I dont think the 2010 GC is settled yet, you will have to ask the governing council about that. Are you interested in hosting the event perhaps?
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/14/09 09:29 PM

Originally Posted by macca

How about confirming receipt of my email with payment??

Did you attach the money to the email?, there's ya problem! grin
Posted By: sailfast

Re: Another F16 rules Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/14/09 09:37 PM

Rolf, perraps we could continu by email now ..
we are really far of subject ..

but why not for GC ..

for information, i send today my paiment to class by paypal without problem whistle
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Another F16 rules Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/14/09 09:46 PM

Emails, anytime. But for the Global Challenge, I am not involved there and will just be an uneccesary middleman if you communicate through me. If you want to know more about the Global Challenge and eventually making a bid to host the event you need to speak with the governing council. Get in touch with Hans Klook, our class president.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/14/09 11:33 PM

Yeah, second that. Perhaps why we don't see too many singlehanded Vipers? Who knows... anyhow, good to have you at some CRAW events this year Karl. Looking forward to 2010.

(A little depressing to log in today for the first time in a year and a half and find this silliness still going on.)
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/15/09 01:02 AM

Originally Posted by MarkMT
Yeah, second that. Perhaps why we don't see too many singlehanded Vipers? Who knows... anyhow, good to have you at some CRAW events this year Karl. Looking forward to 2010.

Probably see me again next year, on a Viper, singlehanded. Depends on how Monday goes, I'm looking at buying some land to put the cabinet shop on. If I do that I may be sailing the FXone forever, which isn't so bad, I got a pretty soft number compared to the rest of the fleet in CRAW.

Quote
(A little depressing to log in today for the first time in a year and a half and find this silliness still going on.)


No kidding. It just popped up outta no where yesterday, or the day before. I don't really understand it.


Somebody should bend Greg Goodall's ear about hosting it in Australia next year. I don't know how, but I'd like to make that trip.
Posted By: macca

Re: Another F16 rules Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/15/09 02:05 AM

Originally Posted by Rolf_Nilsen
Originally Posted by macca


How about confirming receipt of my email with payment??


I am not going to interfere with the processes taking place in accepting new members. There is a defined process for that like in all well organized classes and I am not part of the process.


Rolf,

This defined process.... is it as specified on the singup page?

Here s a copy of the text: "The registration process is in two parts. First we ask you for your name, adress, sailnumber etc. Then we ask you to click on the "PayPal" button to complete paying the membership fee. Your registration is not valid until you have completed the PayPal transaction."

As I have completed the paypal transaction, I can assume that I am now a fully paid member of the F16 class?
Posted By: pepin

Re: Another F16 rules Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/15/09 02:38 AM

Originally Posted by macca
As I have completed the paypal transaction, I can assume that I am now a fully paid member of the F16 class?
Yup, if you paid as you said, as soon as your national association process your registration (give them some time, they are all volunteers) you will be a non-voting member. Welcome.

Once you own a F16 you will be full member, with voting rights.
Posted By: macca

Re: Another F16 rules Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/15/09 02:43 AM

Great!! I already own a class legal F16 so i'm all good to go now!
Posted By: Dazz

Re: Another F16 rules Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/15/09 08:35 AM

Completely unrelated but is stealth marine still in business? their website seems to be missing in action


http://www.stealthmarine.co.uk/
Posted By: Stewart

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/15/09 10:38 AM

-2- Explain why can Hobie build and market the 100kg or less carbon iCat but not a glass/alu 107-112 kg F16 ? Perhaps boat is build for 1-up only ;-)

The answer is because they don't want to.. plain and simple..
Posted By: pepin

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/15/09 10:53 AM

Originally Posted by Dazz
Completely unrelated but is stealth marine still in business? their website seems to be missing in action


http://www.stealthmarine.co.uk/
John website was hosted at geocities, and geocities closed their doors, at last. Once he has time I'm sure john will put up a new web site.
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/15/09 11:24 AM


Quote

Like i already write i don't want polemic, and speak about this one is better, this one is weighter ...


I'm not looking for a polemic either, so indeed we agree there, however one job of this forum is to is to properly inform potential customers and hence my replies. The aim at providing the counter view.

In reply to your comments, I refered to actual measurements as taken at the GC 2007 and have you included the aluminium rudderstock in your 12.64 kg ?

In order to complete the picture I provide the measurements of my own set

2 * 1.018 kg for the rudderboards
2 * 0.530 kg for the rudders stocks incl. kickup rods etc
2 * 2.011 kg for the daggerboards

total 7.118 kg ready for usage / cost < 1000 Euro at the time

Back in 2008 I've witnessed a 1.6 kg high aspect daggerboard made by www.catamaranparts.nl being tested by a 95 kg guys jumping up and down at it tip. It has been used in sailing since then without any complications as far as I know.

Sailfast I wish you the best of fair weather and sailing winds.

And maybe we do meet at some event in the future,

Regards,

Wouter
Posted By: sailfast

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/15/09 12:08 PM

"In reply to your comments, I refered to actual measurements as taken at the GC 2007 and have you included the aluminium rudderstock in your 12.64 kg ?"

Yes of course, in F18 weight of rudders is for the full system.

For memory, Viper at GC 2007 was prototype ... i think take it like references isn't fair ..

Now GC is finish, we could tell 8 Viper 2-up was present, 7 finish in the 8 th ... mens isn't enough for explain that.
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/15/09 12:19 PM

Quote

I think Vipers won every race at the GC?

I'm sure someone will correct me if I am wrong on this



I think you'll find that it was actually the human operators who won the races, rather then their piece of hardware.

Additionally, race 15 was won by Matt and Gina McDonald sailing the Falcon F16; they were 2nd in the two preceding races (13 and 14). http://www.gulfportyachtclub.com/results.htm

So yes, you are wrong (again !)

Wouter


Posted By: Wouter

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/15/09 01:04 PM

Quote

For memory, Viper at GC 2007 was prototype ... i think take it like references isn't fair ..



Not entirely, the ruddersetup was straight off the Capricorn that by that time was several years old as a design.

The daggerboards where shorter in overall length then the Capricorn but otherwise the same.

These components were much less in their prototype stage then one may think. Same with regard to the mast section and mainsail (all developped in the Taipan 4.9 class). The beams, selftacker and snuffer systems were standard from the Capricorn but shortened to F16 length. The overall boat layout is a Capricorn copy.

The only items truly new (as being a prototype) were the jib, the spinaker and the hulls.

The Viper at the 2007 GC was indeed 134 kg due to extensive repairs having been performed on its hulls. Fork lift drivers at the Rotterdam harbour did a "smashing job of unloading the crate". This was the measurement of a 2-up sloop version that AHPC now quotes as being 129 kg. See the following link :

http://www.ahpc.com.au/Brett_Viper.htm

Apparently this 2007 "prototype" was pretty close to the final end product. As it should be considering the known components it uses from other designs.


With regard to the GC 2009. I think the crews sailing these Vipers had all to do with the final scoring. Just look at the following listing.

Robbie Daniels former international Tornado compaigner and professional sailor/sail coach/trainer
John Casey Professional catamaran sailor, Twice alter Cup champion when sailing F16's
Greg Goodall International A-cat and F18 campaigner/sailmaker; professional boatbuilder/sailmaker
Olli Jason (Aspiring) professional sailor/F18 campaigner trained/coached by Robbie Daniels
Brett Goodall Australian F16 champion 2009 and born and raised into established sailor/builder family

Note that the McDonalds sailed very well on their Falcon F16 but scoring 5 dnf/dns kills their overall result. In the other races they finished on average at the 5th place and they won the last race. This also disproofs an earlier claim that only Viper CREWS won races at this GC. The McD's back up this win with 2 additional 2nd place finishes in the preceding races 13 and 14. So their win was not some lucky outlier, they were already knocking on the door so to say. Note that the McD's are not a team of international fame or professional sailors; respectfully speaking, they are at their core a husband and wife team.

Of course Andi Lutz and Martin Schori (also not professional sailors) did very well on a borrowed VWM Blade F16; at home they sail a difference beast (a F18HT). John Casey for example just did a week long "training course" on the Viper at the Alter Cup event 2 weeks ago.

I argue that their is ample indication that the make-up of Viper crews was important in achieving the final results as we have them now. That and the fact that the Viper contingent was almost half the total fleet and that it is beyond any doubt a very capable design. These factors certainly didn't hold any of these crews back.


With kind regards,

Wouter
Posted By: pgp

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/15/09 01:15 PM

Originally Posted by macca
The Viper is clearly the best "F16" boat at the moment . . .!


Nonsense! Matt finally remembered to tighten all the bits on the Falcon and pulled a first and two seconds on Saturday. He and Robbie D. were half a mile* ahead of the rest of the sloops in the first race. Ed Mills, was third sailing Uni on a Blade and also had a very respectable lead on the rest of the pack. That includes JC and Gregg. There are just too many variables on the race course to say one boat is better than another.

What amazes me is how close they all are!

Imo however, Goodall sails got it all over Glaser! grin

*I spoke with Gordon Isco on Friday night. When the weather mark is right in front of the condos, the course is .94 miles. Robbie finished the first race on Saturday by a margin of half the spinnaker leg, Matt/Gina were 10-20 seconds behind and Ed about the same behind them.

Posted By: Timbo

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/15/09 07:14 PM

Hey Macca, just for you I asked a "financially disinterested" 3rd party sailor if he thought the min. wt. should be raised. His response? "Why?"

I think you may know him, he's usually on a F18 but has won two Alter Cups on F16's...

He went on to say, "It's a development class, let it develop, raising the min. wt. isn't going to encourage that, and the F18's could easily be built lighter as well..."

I could not corner Greg G. or Robie D. as everyone was very busy breaking down boats and running about but I think Robi got them in his interviews.

The lightest boat to weigh in was a Taipan, right at min. wt.

Robi has some video interviews he will post when able. Good stuff. Thanks for taking the time and effort to do that Robi.
Posted By: HJS

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/15/09 07:42 PM

Wow…. I am amazed at how a simple thread can turn into such a fiasco.

In response to Wouter… I think you need to give the Viper some credit… After all, there were 2 people on all of these boats! I thought I would just add a few notes to get things back into perspective.

Robbie Daniels former international Tornado campaigner and professional sailor/sail coach/trainer – Who was sailing with 14 year old Taylor….. He did a great job, but doesn’t have an international standing…. YET!

John Casey Professional catamaran sailor, Twice alter Cup champion when sailing F16's – Who paired up with Dalton especially for the regatta – Not sure whether they had ever sailed together before.

Greg Goodall International A-cat and F18 campaigner/sailmaker; professional boatbuilder/sailmaker – Who met his Crew, Kelly just before the regatta. Kelly is normally the SKIPPER.

Brett Goodall Australian F16 champion 2009 and born and raised into established sailor/builder family – Is a damned good crew, but has not had a huge amount of time at the helm. He met his crew, Matt, 2 days before the regatta…. And just for the record, he is NOT the current Australian F16 champion.

Also – I must admit, the Wind Gods did make it easier on the Viper as it does love the wind.

Oh… And for the “heavy weight” argument – I see that 12th Place went to Chris Prentice and Dan Krueger… I think these guys would be 400+ Ibs (180+ Kgs)!!
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/15/09 07:50 PM


Ohh,

Who is the current Aussie F16 champion then ?

Wouter
Posted By: HJS

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/15/09 08:01 PM

James McDonald and Lee Thorn.

For more details, check the link http://www.ahpc.com.au/Brett_News13-04-09.htm
Posted By: waynemarlow

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/15/09 08:27 PM

Originally Posted by HJS
Wow…. I am amazed at how a simple thread can turn into such a fiasco.


I'm not at all amazed, everyone seems to spout off at the slightest provocation like male balerinas challenged for the lead principals role by the directors over weight, untalented wannabee lead principal, girlfriend. Couple that with the likes of the Aussie thread baiters such as Macca and you get a thread just like this.

Anyway this is what computer forums are all about, people can sit behind their screen in the safety of their own home and say what they like. Unfortunately this leads to all sorts of tantrums and accusations which if said in a bar would have a whole different outcome.

Take the recent spat on Sailing Anarchy with Doug Lord, ended up with the most open and sickest of all forums banning a poster, take care Wout with your forum history, you will be entirely blamed for this discussion and how it could have such a major baring on the future of the F16 class tired
Posted By: Timbo

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/15/09 08:42 PM

HJS, the points you made just above about the skippers, as I said much earlier in this train wreck, they are so good they can pick up cew the day before the regatta and still win easily. I give all credit to the sailors, it's not the boat, it's the sailors. Especially in big wind, 5 days and 15 races, the cream rises to the top.

You still have to sail well no matter what type boat you are on. The top guys are at the top for a reason and that reason is -not- the type of boat, or the weight of the boat, or even the sails they use, they simply know how to sail beter than the rest of us. I'm just glad they show up and are willing to share their speed secrets with us.

Let's all agree on that and move on.

What I like most about this sport is the fact that a weekend hack like myself can race in almost every regatta (except the Alter cup where you first must qualify) sail against and talk to the very top sailors in the sport, ask them how, why, what if, etc. and learn directly from them. It is like a once a month golfer going to play with Tiger Woods on a local course, in what other sport can you do that?

Thanks again to everyone who made it happen. It's a lot of work done by many volunteers who get nothing but a free beer out of it.

Thanks to you all and I hope to see you again at Tradewinds!
Posted By: pgp

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/15/09 08:42 PM

The class has at least three really great boats to choose from. This should be great news.

FWIW, there was a good bit of separation between the top five boats and the rest of the fleet. If you compare just Viper to Viper, it quickly becomes the "nut on the tiller". I have no doubt Robbie could have taken Seth's Taipan (it's older than Constantine's) and still have won the regatta by the same margin. Please try to remember that a lot of this regatta was sailed in wind over 15 knots. There just isn't much margin for error. That's where the skill really comes in. As Robbie was lapping me (yes, in more than one race)he seemed rested and in consumate control, while I was hanging on for dear life!
Posted By: GISCO

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/15/09 09:51 PM

FYI Taylor was the helmsman on the last race. Robbie was the crew. So watch out for another tough competiter in the future.

GI
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/15/09 11:15 PM



I stand corrected !

(although I wasn't to far off with Brett being in second place and on first ex equo till the last race day !)

Wouter
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/16/09 12:09 AM

Originally Posted by HJS
Kelly is normally the SKIPPER.


Kelly just started driving this year. So its not like she's lost running the front of the boat.

Quote
Oh… And for the “heavy weight” argument – I see that 12th Place went to Chris Prentice and Dan Krueger… I think these guys would be 400+ Ibs (180+ Kgs)!!


They would've done better too, had they not folded a mast.
Posted By: tback

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/16/09 01:46 AM

Originally Posted by Timbo


What I like most about this sport is the fact that a weekend hack like myself can race in almost every regatta (except the Alter cup where you first must qualify) sail against and talk to the very top sailors in the sport, ask them how, why, what if, etc. and learn directly from them. It is like a once a month golfer going to play with Tiger Woods on a local course, in what other sport can you do that?


I tell friends that there are only a handful of sporting events that you can compete with the best in the world.

Not Baseball, not Football (both kinds), not Tennis, not Golf ...

ONLY Distance Running, Sailing, WSOP ....
Posted By: macca

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/16/09 02:50 AM

Originally Posted by HJS
Wow…. I am amazed at how a simple thread can turn into such a fiasco.

In response to Wouter… I think you need to give the Viper some credit… After all, there were 2 people on all of these boats! I thought I would just add a few notes to get things back into perspective.

Robbie Daniels former international Tornado campaigner and professional sailor/sail coach/trainer – Who was sailing with 14 year old Taylor….. He did a great job, but doesn’t have an international standing…. YET!

John Casey Professional catamaran sailor, Twice alter Cup champion when sailing F16's – Who paired up with Dalton especially for the regatta – Not sure whether they had ever sailed together before.

Greg Goodall International A-cat and F18 campaigner/sailmaker; professional boatbuilder/sailmaker – Who met his Crew, Kelly just before the regatta. Kelly is normally the SKIPPER.

Brett Goodall Australian F16 champion 2009 and born and raised into established sailor/builder family – Is a damned good crew, but has not had a huge amount of time at the helm. He met his crew, Matt, 2 days before the regatta…. And just for the record, he is NOT the current Australian F16 champion.

Also – I must admit, the Wind Gods did make it easier on the Viper as it does love the wind.

Oh… And for the “heavy weight” argument – I see that 12th Place went to Chris Prentice and Dan Krueger… I think these guys would be 400+ Ibs (180+ Kgs)!!


I am Amazed that a 2 year old from Victoria, Australia has such good inside knowledge of an event that took place on the other side of the world!!

Kids these days!!
Posted By: Robi

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/16/09 03:01 AM

Andrew did you get a chance to see the interviews I posted?
Posted By: macca

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/16/09 03:16 AM

Yeah, nice job!!

Greg makes some good points about the future of the class..

Posted By: Robi

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/16/09 03:27 AM

Originally Posted by macca
Yeah, nice job!!

Greg makes some good points about the future of the class..

Thanks, hopefully that should clear up a bit how the top gurus feel about the F16 weight.

IMO they all make really good points that the class should ponder on. After all these guys have a level of experience that we the club level racers lack.
Posted By: macca

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/17/09 11:06 AM

Wow... Quiet in here now...
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/17/09 11:12 AM



Macca,

What is the cost of the DSK78 rigging at the moment ?

Saving 1.8 kg on the standing rigging is alot.

Wouter
Posted By: macca

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/17/09 11:17 AM

the stuff I used isn't available widely at the moment, but you will be available to order shortly I believe.

The costs are about double DSK75, which is still cheap weight savings.

Won't save 20kgs though smile
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/17/09 11:33 AM

Quote

Won't save 20kgs though


No it won't but on a beach catamaran you never save 20 kg in one go.

It is however an example of what Matt McDonald said in his interview. New materials and techniques will become available (come online) over time allowing a drift downwards in ready to sail weights.

I will keep an eye on your blog to see how the rigging holds up over the long term. I got dyneema trap lines since 1998 now and they are brilliant, no issues at all. If the standing rigging behaves similar (including chaff-resistance) then it will be an attractive option.

Wouter
Posted By: GBR6

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/17/09 01:14 PM

Originally Posted by Wouter

Quote


[quote]
Won't save 20kgs though


No it won't but on a beach catamaran you never save 20 kg in one go.

Wouter


I did when I changed my crew. Sorry, I'll get my coat.....
Posted By: taipanfc

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/18/09 03:03 AM

Lots of places where the Viper could go on a diet.

Rudder boxes are extremely heavy and very old school design. What is wrong with carbon or a diet here?

Centreboard construction could be updated. Seems to be a case of just add more stuff rather than reviewing construction process.

Look at the moth foils for instance. The Mach2 can support a man pulling them, http://www.mach2boats.com/images/stories/foil%20bedn%202.jpg And that includes the loads also being on the join between the 2 parts of the foil. These foils are expensive, but that is due the flap and other parts of the foil which include moving metal rods, bell cranks etc inside, so the build is more manual.

Building a proper Capricorn blade which is the same length can be done and weight loss achieved. Same for rudders.

Beams are straight from the F18. But are there alternatives? OK to have heavy beams in the F18 as you are building the platform to be stiff and as close to the 130kg platform limit as possible before you add the rig. Heavy beams are an easy development here in the F18, but is that directly translatable to a smaller and lighter F16?

These are just starters in my opinion. For a great design, there are just a few too many compromises to make it a brilliant.
Posted By: Aido

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/18/09 06:53 AM

Honestly tiapan, what are you going to save with light rudder boxes? Maybe 2 or 3 kilos tops. They still have to be strong and a Moth rudder gantry just isn't going to cut it on a catamaran, be sensible about what you are comparing it to. Plus im sure your well aware that foiling moths break....all the time.

The center boards are way lighter than those on an f18 already. And there is no way you would sacrifice the stiffness of the platform with lighter aluminium beams.

Its been said by many. The only way to get it to minimum weight is for carbon everything. Now i certainly dont want to pay for that. But if the class continues to grow its only a matter of time before someone does.

In my opinion the full carbon boat will not be a hell of a lot faster than the current boats but it will be faster. That will be a big problem for the class.

A top of the range viper or falcon that costs more than a nacra F20 carbon???? Surely you can see how ridiculous this would be.

Aido
Posted By: Aido

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/18/09 07:01 AM

Bye the way AHPC may have made some compromises but i believe they have come up with something very cool. Its about time the f16 class association did the same.
Posted By: taipanfc

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/18/09 08:41 AM

Think you misread my post Aido. Didn't talk about a moth gantry to start with, referred to a moth centreboard. Wouter referred earlier to how a Dutch company made extremely strong boards for a reasonable price, and as making a similar observation to how other classes are making light and strong boards. Seen the Viper ones break in Singapore, plus they chip really badly along the trailing edge, and saying they can be improved.

If you read the F18 rules you can understand why they do particular things. There is a maximum weight for the boards, so they build the boards to the maximum weight. There is a maximum weight for the platform, so they build the platform up to that weight. Heavy beams is part of this heavy platform package. Saying (and just my opinion) that moving heavy F18 beams made for a particular F18 package may not translate across to a lighter F16. There are potentially alternatives.

And moths break a lot as there is no minimum weight so you go to the edge of what is possible. If you can get away with it, even better.

My post didn't refer to going all carbon spare the expense approach.
Posted By: simonp

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/18/09 09:40 AM

My FCA blade weighs in at 1.5 kg over minimum with the only carbon being in the foils. You don't need an all carbon boat to reach minimum, that's a myth.

I don't think the Vipers are necessarily the fastest either. At last years oz nationals the blades were often first to the first mark and passed vipers going downwind. The vipers won because they were sailed very well by two very good teams. Which is what we saw at the global challenge aswell.
Posted By: Mark P

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/18/09 11:41 AM

I'm in agreement with you Simon, good quality workmanship is probably all that is required as can been seen in these photo's of one of the first FCA Blades. No sign of carbon in this hull!!

Attached picture FCA BLADE int 1.jpg
Attached picture FCA BLADE int2.jpg
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/18/09 01:20 PM

Allow me to add some verified numbers to this discussion :

Quote

Honestly tiapan, what are you going to save with light rudder boxes? Maybe 2 or 3 kilos tops



Currently the Capricorn F18 and Viper F16 rudder stocks are solid cast aluminium. This is not a lightweight or indeed strong construction at all unless AHPC heat treats the stocks after casting which is doubtfull in my opinion. AHPC, Falcon marine and Stealth Marine have all offered carbon rudder stocks while Blade Europe offers (standard) stocks made from bend high grade (heat treated) square aluminium tube. All these come in at around 0.500 kg when fully assembled (excl. the rudder boards). The F16 rudderboards are typically around 1.0 kg making the combined package 1.5 kg per side. Indeed, measuring different brands of F16 didn't show much variation here. Note how the F18 class rules state ;"The minimum weight of each complete rudder assembly comprising blade, stock and tiller is fixed at 3 kg." That means that a standard F16 build already saves AT MINIMUM 3 kg in total on the rudder assembly. Please note that breakage of stocks and rudderoards is not at all common in the F16 class, so these standard lightweight setups appears to be up to the job.

Sailfast quotes his Capricorn set of daggers and ruddersetup to be 12.63 kg. At GC 2007 we measured the Viper set at almost 15 kg on total. Either way the Viper daggers appear to be at minimum 12.63 - 6.0 kg = 6.63 kg per pair. Standard lightweight F16 daggers (high aspect) are below 2.0 kg a piece. I think we measured these at GC 2007 to be between 1.6 and 2.0 kg; with the Stealth daggers and newest Blade daggers being lightest at 1.6 kg. Only mine and I think the prototype Aussie Blade daggers were at 2.0 kg (please correct me Marcus if I'm wrong), none were over 2.0 kg. Most others were at 1.8 kg. That suggests that another 6.0 - 2*1.8 = 2.4 kg can be won on the daggers.

Combined this comes out at an minmal estimate of 5.4 kg gains simply by not using (overweight) F18 technology. Basically, in the F18 you are trying to get UP to weight instead of getting DOWN to it. Note however, that the only measurement I have of a full Viper set (GC 2007) is 15 kg compared to my own "back of the pack" 7.2 kg. That is not a difference of 5.4 kg but rather of 7.8 kg !


Quote

The center boards are way lighter than those on an f18 already.


I actually don't see much data to suggest that. At least the Viper daggers I held were pretty much in the same weight range of the F18 boards I helped carry. I think it perfectly reasonable to expect the exact same layup to be used for both the Viper and Capricorn boards. That would be economically smart. Do you have measurements that contradict this ? How much do the "new Viper daggers" weight ?


Quote

And there is no way you would sacrifice the stiffness of the platform with lighter aluminium beams.


We have done platform stiffness measurements on the F16's and interestingly enough ; all new builds are stiffer then the Tiger F18's and Nacra F18's ever were, even when compensated for the different platform weights. There is a point were platform stiffnes is enough. One can always go stiffer still, but it is doubtful whether that improves handling or performance by any significant measure. By laying up the bare platform on the sterns and lifting one hulls one can measure the height distance between both bows. My homebuild Taipan with relatively flexible beams show a height difference of 62 mm. The home build Blades with 80x2 mm beams display about 43 mm and the newer F16's (with custom beams or 90x2 mm) are around 25 mm if I remember correctly. The Tiger and Nacra F18's were measured at 95 mm. Please note that the F16 platform weight (65 kg) is exactly half the platform weight of an F18 (130 kg). This means that the homebuild (timber/epoxy/80x2) Blades were already on a par with competitive F18's and the newer F16's are better. I don't think anybody marks a 2002 Tiger as an uncompetitive F18.

I'm quite sure that the Viper F16's are somewhere around 15 mm flexing in platform stiffness. However the relatively weak 80x2 alu tubes are already enough. The 80x2 beams weight 3.5 kg a piece. What do the Capricorn beams weight; If I have to guess I would say twice as much. However does anybody have a measurement of these ? The newer F16's like the Aussie Blade and Falcons use a custom designed aluminium beam setup (Phill and I designed it together). These are a little heavier then the 80x2 beams, from memory 4.5 kg a piece, but have the same stiffness as 90x2 beams (40% better then 80x2) while presenting a more practical overall shape (straight top, bottom and back sides) and having an integrated trampoline track. Of course a custom die had to be made to produce these beams, but that was only a minor portion of the total price it would have costed to produce a single batch of 80x2 or 90x2 round beams. What I'm trying to say here is that it is not expensive to make custom aluminium beams for a F16. Any builder who doesn't have a F18 in its program will go down this route over using standardized 80x2 or 90x2 round tubes. And indeed small builders (compared to AHPC) like Australian Formula Catamarans (FCA) and Falcon Marine have gone down this route. F18 builders on the other hand will take another route as they are trying to get UP to weight. They will make one heavy and stiff beam design with an integrated trampoline track and an integrated traveller track. The latter adds another 1.25 kg to the beam. As weight is not an issue they use the same beam both at the front and back. Some builders are also foolish enough to place the trampoline track in the centre plane of the beam where it does add weight but hardly any stiffness.

It is indeed a far cry to claim that such F18 beams are a benchmark. One now also understands why F16's don't use beams with integrated traveller tracks. A seperate track of 2 mtr length riveted to the rearbeam weights 1 kg while an integrated track to both beams (2 * 2.50 mtr where 2.50 mtr track = 1.25kg) adds 2.5 kg weight to the whole platform. That is an easy 1.5 kg to save. So someone has to fit the traveller track to an F16 beam; that is some additional labour cost, but won't run up in 1000's of additional dollars. Maybe 50 bucks extra ? I would call that cheap weightsaving.

All these little weight increases do add up (to a 180 kg F18 !) and I dare say there is ample evidence that the beams, daggers and ruddersetup alone already add 10 kg at minimum to the Viper overall weight, probably a little more. Note that the lightweight F16's do not report troubles with their beams. In fact, the VWM Blades came with 90x1.6 kg rearbeams (0.5 kg lighter then 80x2 and 15% stiffer) and I believe there was only single one report of malfunction there, thus suggesting an extrusion error rather then a design error.

Wrapping up this particular point. MUCH lighter beams could have been used for the Viper F16 while maintaining sufficient platform stiffness; at least at such a level as to be on a par or better then a competive F18 design.

Quote

Its been said by many. The only way to get it to minimum weight is for carbon everything. Now i certainly dont want to pay for that. But if the class continues to grow its only a matter of time before someone does.



Actually, this is only said by the people closely associated to the Viper F16 design. In fact, even mr Gooddall himself admits to the fact that the basic Taipan F16 (4.9 with a spi) is right at the minimum class weight (without ANY use of exotic materials like carbon). And one more then one occasion he mentioned to me that he feels that it is still a surprisingly competitive craft especially in 1-up mode. Now, he has a point in saying that the newer 2-up F16's have become significantly bigger boats, but that still doesn't negate the fact that going up from 107 kg to 130 kg is one major increase in overall weight. After all, the only items that needed to be beefed up were the beams and hulls; one doesn't need 23 kg to do that. Note that a 10% increase in hull crosssection dimensions (weight) already incurrs a 21% increase in hull volume. The Taipan hulls come in at 23.5 kg. Basically, this means that a 26 kg hull that is build with Taipan 4.9 technology can have 25% more hull volume for only 2 * 2.5 = 5 kg more ready to sail weight; and 25% additional volume is a major increase (think boat+crew = 107+135kg going up to 112+190kg).

Upgrading from 80x2 to 10x2 beam (or equivalent stiffness beams) will cost an additional 1.7 kg per set = say 2.0 kg or less for an increase of 95% increase in beam stiffness = say doubling the beam stiffness.

Now the readers will also understand why the competition (who also makes economical decisions in constructing these F16's) are able to produce wide bodied and stiff glass/vinylester/alu boats that in their basic standard 2-up fit-out weight in the range of 110-115 kg. (This is confirmed by actual GC measurements). So yes, the claims are correct in principle, just not in the actual amount of weight that needs to be added.

Now imagine placing a (3800 USD / 3000 Euro) carbon mast on such a standard boat (typically 16.000 USD / 15.000 Euro); this will already lower the ready-to-sail weight to the range 106-111 kg and put the cost price on a par with a modern competitive F18. Also note that the all carbon Stealth F16 is priced some 2000 Euro below that figure. Additionally, the reduced weight of the rig will lower the demands placed on the bow volume again, thus allow smaller hull volumes to be used again.

Can anyone imagine sailing such a standard Falcon or Aussie Blade F16 with a carbon mast ? I think it would be a dream to sail and be THE benchmark against which all other designs will be compared. I think some Stealth owners are one step ahead of us in that respect.


Quote

A top of the range viper or falcon that costs more than a nacra F20 carbon???? Surely you can see how ridiculous this would be.



Actually, the claim of costing more then a N20 carbon is rediculous itself. Indeed, EU en US customers can already buy a close to minimum weight carbon masted F16 for the same price as they can buy an alu masted F18 like the Capricorn for (under 20.000 USD / under 18.000 Euro's). Hell the last quote for a carbon masted Inter-17 was significantly higher then that, not to mention the cost associated with the new Hobie iCat. The Hobie FX-one with an alu mast and no jib or spinnaker will set you back 14.500 Euro's. Even the sloop+spi alu masted 149 kg heavy Cirrus Evolution will cost 15.000 Euro's. http://www.boulogneconceptionmarine.com/fr/catamarans-fiche.asp?IdProduit=3

It is a strange world indeed when a 110-115 kg STANDARD F16 is ACTUALLY both cheaper and faster then its 130-150 kg competition. Additionally, it also has a much more developped international class stucture.



I'm sure somebody will some day construct an all carbon fibre F16, possibly with diamonds inlays on the deck. Some desert Sjeik may find that attractive. However, it will not gain more then 4 kg on a 20.000 USD/18.000 Euro carbon masted F16 that is available of the shelf today (most likely less then that). It will not gain much platform stiffness as he is NOT allowed the glue the carbon beams to the hulls and therefor has to use the old bolt and nuts fastenings that negate much of the stiffness gains. As a result he will not be faster at all then the above mentioned cheap F16 and he will look like a right fool when Robbie Daniels passes him on a standard all glass/alu/130kg Viper.

I feel we must give the customer and class member some credit here. They will know perfectly well what an acceptable ratio is between cost and performance and will rightly ignore over expensive F16's that may look good on paper but not live up to the promise. I don't think any customer is in the slightest attracted to a 30.000 US/25.000 Euro F16 when it promises to only improve weight by a mere 4 kg and platform stiffness by a mere 10 mm ( modern A-cat 15 mm; modern standard F16 25 mm). He or she will know that that is just wasted money.

And why do I think that ? Because the Viper design is selling at the moment (just as the other F16 designs are) implying that its customers are not too worried about its 15-20 kg additional weight. If so then why do we expect them to worry about a mere 4 kg ? They don't and they won't.

With kind regards,

Wouter

Posted By: Wouter

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/18/09 01:24 PM



Simon,

You know what is also missing in those pictures ?

Excessive waste !

Like large drops or rims of resin and filler.

Have you ever looked inside some of the big builder boats.

I must say that Australian Formula Catamarans builds some tidy hulls. This attention to detail and clean working sort of hints at a very high standard of quality control.

Wouter
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/18/09 01:36 PM

Quote

My FCA blade weighs in at 1.5 kg over minimum with the only carbon being in the foils. You don't need an all carbon boat to reach minimum, that's a myth.



Well done FCA !

I remember the prototype Aussie Blade to be 112.7 at the Global challenge 2007. To see it come down to 108.5kg or just 1.5 kg over minimum without carbon hulls, beams or even a carbon mast is great !

I assume this doesn't include the jib sail and track ?

Put a carbon mast on there and you'll have to carry lead !

For all you forum readers out there, The Aussie Blade F16 hulls are indeed very close in freeboard and volume to the Viper F16 hulls, not to mention the platform is at full F16 width. The same points that are given as the cause for favouring raising the min. class weight.

Wouter

Posted By: Timbo

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/18/09 01:42 PM

I know in America we have many F16 sailors who could lose 10-20 kg just by going on a diet, I did! It's funny to hear anyone debate which boat is lighter when they are carrying an extra 30lbs. around the waistline.

Until I get my own fat butt down to "Minimum weight" I'm not going to worry about how many kilos's over wt. my boat is!

Only 10 more lbs. to go! Then I'll go shopping for a new $10,000 carbon mast, just to save another 10 lbs., and guess what?

Robie Daniels, JC, Greg Goodall, and many others will still kick my butt on their -heavy- boats!

It's about the sailors, not the boats.

PS: no, I am not going to buy a carbon mast, that was sarcasm.

Posted By: simonp

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/18/09 01:43 PM

Acutally it was 105.5kg (uni rig) when we weighed it. It would be slightly higher now (maybe half a kilogram)because i have beefed some items up since.

I'm not too worried though, I think I have room to lose 2 kgs myself. smile
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/18/09 01:48 PM

Quote

Wouter referred earlier to how a Dutch company made extremely strong boards for a reasonable price



Actually, the lightest daggerboards at the GC 2007 were made by Stealth Marine in the UK (1.6 kg).

Mark Pressdees very young Stealth F16 was a very pretty boat that checked all the boxes. I think it had to carry a tip weight up its carbon mast and was at minimum class weight. John Pierce delivered on that boat.

In 2008, the Dutch company www.catamaranparts.nl (who also supplies Vectorworks / Falcon Marine) also build 1.6 kg high aspect daggerboards using a profile that was developped in the A-cat class. It was this board we both tested with our 90 and 95 kg bodies by jumping up and down on its tip when we had it jammed to a work table. I dared not give it to much gusto, but Hans (being confident in his product) did and he is truly a big guy (I tend to flatter him about his weight).

I saw him giving that board a work out as it is was a diving plank in the swimming pool.

If there is one thing I say about Hans then it will be that he has golden hands. He also made our global challenge throphy and whatever he makes is good quality; no doubt about that although his website could be a little better.

In order to give some extra weight to the above; I admit that we are not tight friends.

Wouter
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/18/09 01:55 PM



Quote

Acutally it was 105.5kg (uni rig) when we weighed it.



Ohhh ! now that is light !

The jib package should add about 2.0-2.5 kg (sail, track, swivelcleats, line, blocks). Having it come in from the factory at 108 kg in sloop 2-up attire, or 1 kg above minimum class weight and the Taipan 4.9/F16's. As a standard glass/alu boat ?

Wow !

This sort of puts things in perspective

Wouter
Posted By: simonp

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/18/09 02:02 PM

Originally Posted by Wouter

Ohhh ! now that is light !
Wouter


Yeah, I'm thinking of getting some of that DSK78 on Macca's website for the stays to save that 1.5 kgs. How much faster do you think I will go? wink
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/18/09 02:30 PM


Quote

How much faster do you think I will go?



Mentally or physically speaking ?

Never underestimate the placebo effect.

Wouter
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/18/09 02:34 PM


Actually,

I think the F18 class disallows high strength lines to be used as trapeze lines. I'm not sure whether the Viper uses lines here or wire. I seem to remember the Blades and Falcons coming standard with high strength line trap lines.

Personally, I will never use wire in this role again. Lines are cheaper, lighter (by 0.5 kg) and damage the sails and mast much less then steel trap wires.

With a needle and polyester thread or splicing one can make ones own timble eyes.

It all adds up.

Wouter
Posted By: mini

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/18/09 02:34 PM

Originally Posted by Aido
Bye the way AHPC may have made some compromises but i believe they have come up with something very cool. Its about time the f16 class association did the same.


AHPC is providing a nice platform, so do not take this a bash on them, but your comment above is a bit beyond BS.

The F16 class has a very defined set of parameters (agree with them or not) and a number of builders, profesional and amature worldwide. Trying to force class rules to match 1 manufacturer is assinine.

AHPC has elected to use F18 parts, foils beams etc. so he can maximize his use of dies and molds, cut his inventory, and handling and make a bit more money selling boats. In the end he has boats that are around 20+ Kg over the majority of the competition. This is their descision and people who choose to purchase their boats are well aware of this.

Put the right drivers on the boats and they can win races. Gregg and Jill spent quite a lot of money to prove that point last week at the GC. FHC and Falcon are building boats that within the rules can be made under min for right around the same selling price. If you choose to buy a heavy boat, do not blame the class rules for being non-competitive. If everyone decides they can not stand the added weight and stops purchasing Vipers, you better believe AHPC will put it on a diet and a Viper 2 will hit the market soon.

Someone will in all liklyhood build an all carbon boat down the road. Somebody somwhere will want one for the bling.

Carbon mast are legal, but with a min tip weight the advantage of a carbon mast is not that great. A proper sail mast combo is most important.

Carbon beams will not save any appreciable weight over tube aluminum. The only way you could save weight going to carbon beams is to get rid of the bolts and bond the boat together, but that is not allowed.

There are glass hulls now being produced at min weight. Going to carbon adds what? They would be a bit stiffer, but that is such a marginal improvement that I do not beleive there is any way anyone would feel they have to have carbon to be competitive. It is an envy thing only.

The F16 class was not created to be a baby F18. It is a semi-developmenal class of its own. A lot of people understand that and embrace that. If not there are pleanty of other classes and boats to sail.
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/18/09 02:54 PM



Quote

AHPC is providing a nice platform, so do not take this a bash on them



Allow me to second that.

My other posts may be misunderstood as basking the Viper, but I too feel the Viper is an very nice boat. In fact, I like it alot. I really like the layout and how tidy it is. It also appears to be the perfect hullshape for the rough conditions we get here on the North sea. It has ample freeboard and it is very capable in the severe chop we get over here. That I know from a direct comparison between diffent F16's made by I person I trust alot. Additionally, I've seen it go (just as the Aussie Blade) at the GC 2007 and it looked like it handled the chop very well indeed.

In fact, I would very seriously consider it as my next boat if it would come in below 120 kg when in sloop 2-up attire with alu mast. Of course I would prefer it around 110 kg but feel that any overweightness that is less then 13 kg is very acceptable indeed. The F16's simply carry weight that well in a competitive fashion.

Why this limit ? Because I have to handle my boat singlehandedly on the beach and trailer. Even when I had a crew, I was always the one doing the lifting and transporting by myself. You often get that with female crews. Now my nephew and niece are growing up, but I don't expect them to out lift me for another 15 years.

Currently I can just walk up my F16 against the (soft) sandy incline leading up to my club's harbour. An additionally 20 kg would probably break my back and I'm not getting any younger either.

Wouter
Posted By: Jalani

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/18/09 03:04 PM

Whaaat!! Why is this thread still going??
Can't we wrap it up guys?
Posted By: waynemarlow

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/18/09 05:29 PM

Its good fun this thread, the forum has been a litle boring of late so lets keep it going.

You guys talk of what an all carbon boat weights, Bitsa for those who followed that thread is probably getting close to being as light as you really want in construction and is pretty much all carbon apart from the ali beams ( sorry I think Ali is just as good as carbon in the way it is used in that application) plus I have saved quite a few kilos on the snuffer arrangement. I would suspect though that its long term durability will be less than say a Viper, thats the nub of building very light.

As yet I haven't weighed it all up but compared to my "lightened " Stealth which was spot on the class weight it is appreciably lighter to wheel about. One thing for sure I will have to be putting lead on to make class weight when I put the F16 sail and mast on.

Sorry guys but the class weight is easily attainable with glass and good design. However I do think that the Viper is certainly a " fat bottomed " lass and the hull size is easily the biggest in the class causing some of its excess weight. But it goes well with two up and simply confirms my suspicions that for good all round two up sailing, hull volumes need to go up a bit from where we are now. So what if that then makes that design a little Porky, it will still win races and will still be a very marketiable boat
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/18/09 05:38 PM



Quote

Someone will in all liklyhood build an all carbon boat down the road. Somebody somwhere will want one for the bling.



I think we know this guy already; his name is Scooby Simon ! grin

He got a carbon mast, carbon beams and I believe carbon hulls. All made be Stealth Marine in the UK

I think he drew the line at diamond inlays however ! grin

Smart fellow !

Wouter

Posted By: Wouter

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/18/09 05:54 PM



Quote

Carbon beams will not save any appreciable weight over tube aluminum.



I discussed this with a guy whose name we all know from the A-cat class and who has for many years made carbon masts and other carbon components. This was at the time that my homebuild was under construction and I had to decide whether to go for alu or carbon beams.

He assured me, based on his A-cat experience, that I should not expect to save much more then 1.0-1.5 kg per beam. At the time the cost simply did not weight up against the benefits.

Wouter
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/18/09 06:02 PM



Hello Wayne,

With respect to Bitsa (or an all carbon 1-up F16) we have a relatively good benchmark of what can be attained.

That benchmark is called the Marstrom M18 (and shares many specs with the F16's like sailarea) and it weights 80 kg.

Nice project you got going there by the way.

Wouter
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/18/09 06:12 PM

If anybody is wondering what I meant earlier by rudder stocks made from bending high grade aluminium tube.

It looks like this :

and it is simple, strong, light and cheap.

(even some non-F16 builder has seen the light in this respect, as this boat is not an F16)



Attached picture Hobie_iCat_sterns.jpg
Posted By: Seeker

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/18/09 07:07 PM

"Carbon beams will not save any appreciable weight over tube aluminum. The only way you could save weight going to carbon beams is to get rid of the bolts and bond the boat together, but that is not allowed."

You might recall that this avenue of performance enhancement (bonding the beams instead of bolting) was campaigned against by AHPC for "economic reasons"...to fit in standard shipping containers.
Posted By: tom_in_fire

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/18/09 07:40 PM

It has been a long time since I posted on this forum. Let me present myself. I'm a french sailor who passed 2 years in the US in 2007 and 2008. Before that, in france, I sailed an old F18 dart hawk for 3 or 4 years mainly with my wife. In the US I bought a laser that I raced regularly and since I'm back to france I purchased a used F18 capricorn.

I know francis cause he is the AHPC dealer but I did not discuss this matter with him. I also have no interest in any firms selling catamarans.
I'm not a member and do not own an F16, mainly because it's way easier to find a used F18 than an F16. I'm sparing some money to buy a brand new F16 as soon as possible. Oh, and I also helped to translate into french the F16 website...

So here is my 2 cents and I would understand if you disregard it.

I was one of the first talking about the fact that the viper marketed itself as an F16 and a C104 and that would make it a sensible choice for a french sailor. French is one of the biggest catamaran market if not the biggest and indeed viper is selling very well here.

Why am I saying all this? Because I think that in no time the viper will become the most represented F16 design, if not already. If this assumption become true, there will be enough people racing on vipers to race on elapsed time at some events, in a OD manner. They probably will do so if some junks show up at an event with a full carbon viper at 107kg. Viper would then end up as a OD and F16 with no big manufacturers will end up with too few but light and very competitive boats. Someone wanting a high performance 16 ft catamaran (like me) will then have to chose between the two and will do depending of whether he is racing or not. Racers will likely choose a viper because of numbers of cats showing up at a race and the other will choose lighter F16 cause they don't want to drag too much weight on the beach.
So, imho if the min weight rule is not amended there will be a split between viper and lighter F16 and I guess this is not what people wants.

In the past years I've always been opposed to a change of this min. weight rule. But I think that the success of the viper changed the situation. AHPC made a good work by selling their cats and now it will be difficult to become a fully grown formula class like the F18 without the viper and the associated sailors. They won't like to be beaten at the 2010 global challenge by a 107 kgs viper fitting the F16 rules... Either 104 or F16 or viper OD will survive in the long run, not all of them. I have not quite yet make up my mind, and I don't knnow the truth, but I think we might think seriously about the min rule weight and not just disregard it like 2 years ago. Situation has changed. It might be time to adapt.

Thomas.

Posted By: Wouter

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/18/09 07:44 PM

Quote

You might recall that this avenue of performance enhancement (bonding the beams instead of bolting) was campaigned against by AHPC for "economic reasons"...to fit in standard shipping containers.




Actually, AHPC had a list of reasons to not supporting carbon beams and all made sense to various degrees.

The "shipping by container" was actually one that linked in very well with the spirit of the F16 class rules.

It identified a serious issue. The health of the F16 class is maintained by having multiple builders participate and compete with eachother inside a single class structure where their individual efforts will also strength their common interest. Viable international shipping is a serious precondition. Also with respect the internation events where private parties need to ship their own boats to the event. It needs no further arguing that disassembled shipping is very much cheaper then hiring space on specialized oversize containers that may or may not be handled in the port of choice. Of course, aftermarket customer services like replacing parts under warranty is better handled when all component can be disassembled by the owner. Lots of owners also prefer to disassemble their boats for winter storage. This means that fully bonded boat would also go against the practical concept for the F16 class.

Therefor a compromise was struck where the true culprit (the bonding of the beams instead of the material choice) was banned. Of course, an advantageous side-effect was that is also limited the potential gains of any carbon beams. Much like the mast tip rule does.

The beauty of this rule was of course that homebuilders in far of places or even builders with interesting local limitations could still use glass or carbon to replace aluminium components. For example, it is cheaper for the Finish guys to build glass or carbon beams then to have the right high grade alu tubes shipped to them. For Stealth marine it is actually cheaper to make carbon masts in-house then to buy aluminium masts.

Therefor both the mast tip weigth rule and non-bonding of beams rule allow maximal freedom of available resources (materials etc) while forcing a more equal playing field and reducing costs. Note that even alu beams may be bonded to the hulls by use of special glues; so this rule was NOT solely against the carbon beams.

I personally feel that AHPC did us a great favour in spotting this potential problem point (Problematic international shipping, reduced participation) and I have never seen any protest from any of the other builders on this aspect. Everybody basically thought it a good idea.

Wouter
Posted By: Aido

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/18/09 07:48 PM

That is some tidy work on the blade hull.

Wouter as usuall your numbers are based on complete crap. Are you related to Doug Lord?
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/18/09 08:36 PM

Thomas,

Welcome back.

Personally, I think the thing you decribe can always happen.

Blade sailors in the Netherlands can suddenly decide to go OD and exclude Stealths and Vipers. Stealth sailors in the UK can decide to go OD and exclude Blades and Vipers. And so on ...

One can always find a reason to exclude another who is different. Humans have done so for centuries with pretty discouraging results.

However, I think the F16 class should remain inclusive of everyone and I for one will never ask a Taipan F16 sailor to hang 23 kg of lead off his boat. I even think that to be a safety issue.

Therefore I will always favour to welcome both Taipan and Viper sailors to F16 events as indeed I will welcome Stealth, Blade, and Falcon sailors. A minimum weight of 107 kg is perfectly suited to that situation; it is inclusive of everyone whether they sail a pre-2007 AHPC product (Taipan) or a post-2007 AHPC product (Viper).

In all honesty, the F16 class can hardly ask its current class members and the other three builders to go back on their investments over the last 8 years and start pricing out lead. Or risk running afoul of class rule 4.6.5. (max 7.0 kg of corrector weights).


So, if the Viper sailors wish to create their own OD class then I wish them the very best.

Yet somehow, I still expect many Viper sailors to still commit adultry with respect to an event like the Global Challenge, Autralian nationals or the Gulfport invitational.


With kind regards,

Wouter
Posted By: tom_in_fire

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/18/09 10:26 PM

Wouter,

I'm glad to read you. I always like your post. I think I got your point. However, don't you think that if one F16 design become overly numerous, there is more chance for it to go OD?
Would this be a different situation than the one you describe with the Blade sailors in nederlands? And if so, would you agree that the risk of vipers going OD is increased compared to other F16 design?
Posted By: macca

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/18/09 10:57 PM

Originally Posted by Wouter


Quote

Someone will in all liklyhood build an all carbon boat down the road. Somebody somwhere will want one for the bling.



I think we know this guy already; his name is Scooby Simon ! grin

He got a carbon mast, carbon beams and I believe carbon hulls. All made be Stealth Marine in the UK

I think he drew the line at diamond inlays however ! grin

Smart fellow !

Wouter



I think Simon is out in his shed trying to weigh his all carbon boat.... And his scales are not showing him the weight he would like to see...
Posted By: scooby_simon

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/18/09 11:03 PM

Originally Posted by macca
Originally Posted by Wouter


Quote

Someone will in all liklyhood build an all carbon boat down the road. Somebody somwhere will want one for the bling.



I think we know this guy already; his name is Scooby Simon ! grin

He got a carbon mast, carbon beams and I believe carbon hulls. All made be Stealth Marine in the UK

I think he drew the line at diamond inlays however ! grin

Smart fellow !

Wouter



I think Simon is out in his shed trying to weigh his all carbon boat.... And his scales are not showing him the weight he would like to see...


It's not all Carbon; It's got a Carbon mast; Carbon beams and some Carbon and Kevlar in the layup around the beam trays and a few other areas; I'm sure John P would give you a rough idea how he lays the boats up to get them down to weight; He can manage it building on his own, in his workshop, which is an old stable.

As for weight; last time it was weighed, it was just under weight. As stated above; Blades have been built down to weight without using Carbon.

Macca,

How are you getting on with getting the F18's and A classes to up their Min weight? As you've not answered that question, I assume they are not keen?
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/18/09 11:28 PM

Quote

As stated above; Blades have been built down to weight without using Carbon.



That is not entirely correct; there is always carbon to be found in the foils.

Hell, even the F18 class modified their class rules to allow for carbon fibres there as the quantities (cost) used there are so small that it is not worth fuzzy over.

If you meant no carbon in mast, beams and hulls then yes your statement is true.

Wouter


Posted By: scooby_simon

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/18/09 11:37 PM

Originally Posted by Wouter
Quote

As stated above; Blades have been built down to weight without using Carbon.



That is not entirely correct; there is always carbon to be found in the foils.

Hell, even the F18 class modified their class rules to allow for carbon fibres there as the quantities (cost) used there are so small that it is not worth fuzzy over.

If you meant no carbon in mast, beams and hulls then yes your statement is true.

Wouter




OK, so a bit of carbon in the foils....


Now, back to Macca, how is the process of getting the all up weight of the A and F18 up?
Posted By: macca

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/18/09 11:52 PM

Simon,

When your Carbon F16 weighs in at 80kg then I will start to give you some cred..

remember, you have carbon hulls, beams, mast and foils on a 16ft boat so it should weigh around the same as an A class which is built with the same materials... and don't forget, I am giving you a 5kg allowance for the extra sails and you are even 2ft shorter in hull length and more so in mast height..
Posted By: scooby_simon

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/19/09 12:25 AM

Originally Posted by macca
Simon,

When your Carbon F16 weighs in at 80kg then I will start to give you some cred..

remember, you have carbon hulls, beams, mast and foils on a 16ft boat so it should weigh around the same as an A class which is built with the same materials... and don't forget, I am giving you a 5kg allowance for the extra sails and you are even 2ft shorter in hull length and more so in mast height..



Nope; I have SOME carbon in my hulls. I do not need to have a boat down to 80kg, YOU state it's possible.

There is no need, we just continue to build down to 104 / 107. This is being done. There is no need to build down to 80.

If you wish to propose the min weight is changed, join the class when you own a recognised F16 and propose it. That is the only way to change the class rules.


So, to summarise, you state it should be possible to build a F16 to 80 kg; The current class rules state 104 / 107kg. You have been told a number of times how to propose a rule change.

I do not see there is a need for more discussion. Just get a recognised F16; join the AUS assoication, propose the rule change it can then be voted on.


Discussion over as far as I am concerned.
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/19/09 12:58 AM

Quote

However, don't you think that if one F16 design become overly numerous, there is more chance for it to go OD?



A formula class always runs that risk.

However, it doesn't matter much whether that risk is small or large as there is almost nothing a formula class can do about it. In fact, it can even be debated whether it should want to do anything about it. It will only risk upsetting its dedicated base over the uncertain assurances of a group that is already considering leaving the fold.

The only thing a formula class can do is keep its own house in order and make participation in its events attractive. Each individual boat owner will then decide for himself what he finds most attractive. Indeed, a formula class and an OD class can also co-exist harmoniously. It doesn't have to be split. Many F18 designs hold their own OD championships and it doesn't appear to impact negatively on the F18 class.

I feel that the only real threat to a formula class is when the number of builders committed to it drops down to only 1, then you get a hostile take over as was the case with the F20 class. However, most of the time the company doing the take-over distroys his own prospects in the process. Members of a formula class generally don't take well to a change over to very strict OD rules forcing them to buy everything from a single overprized supplier. Especially not when before some date they could source their stuff from whatever supplier they prefered.

In fact this is an interesting viewpoint altogether as at this moment the F16 class is alot more likely to degrade to a single builder by raising the min weight then by NOT raising the minimum weight. Three out of four F16 builders do NOT support raising the minimum weight and most certainly not to the level of the current Viper. I don't see how upsetting three builders to carry favour with one other builder would at al improof the position of the class, no matter how many members that particular builder may find on his side.


Quote

Would this be a different situation than the one you describe with the Blade sailors in nederlands? And if so, would you agree that the risk of vipers going OD is increased compared to other F16 design?



To be honest I think there is too much huffing and puffing on account of the Vipers. Note that I do not say that the Viper owners themselves are doing much of that. I don't think the numbers of Vipers sold warrant any strutting around just yet.

Sure the past GC saw a large contingent of Vipers; there were 10 of them out 24 participants. That is still a majority of non-vipers when also noting that these 10 Vipers were previously Alter Cup boats and available for charter at this GC. I don't think there are currently more then 15 Vipers in the whole USA.

Personally, I don't think the owners of the Viper are at all interested in a Viper OD class; there is none on the horizon. I think they bought the Viper because they liked the package it offered as a F16 and don't fuzz over its ready-to-sail weight. I think they got the right end of the stick here.

I also don't see much effort on behalf of other F16's to go strict OD. I think the vast majority understand that we are strong when we are united.

Wouter
Posted By: taipanfc

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/19/09 01:00 AM

DSK78 will soon be old school, haha. Southern Spars makes a very very nice carbon rod stay system. And it is extremely thin, so windage definitely minimised, and extremely light. If it can take a person running into at 25 knots in a massive nose dive, should be up to the job.
Posted By: Aido

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/19/09 01:37 AM

Fair enough Wouter. I hope your right.

I heard from a reliable source that there Is going to be a more affordable PBO rigging option being released in the very near future. This could be good as well . It will still be more expensive than stainless wire tho.
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/19/09 01:50 AM

Thanks Aido,

Lets leave it at that.

With respect to PBO

Where I am stainless steel rigging is CHEAP ! So stuff like PBO will remain "more expensive" a whole lot longer I'm afraid.

However, "more expensive" does not necessarily equate to "expensive", right ?

Fair winds to you !

Wouter
Posted By: Aido

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/19/09 02:23 AM

You should be thanking macca for breathing some life into this forum. And I look forward to hearing about more f16s taking on f18 s and coming out on top. It's getting quite boring here in australia they win all the mixed regattas.
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/19/09 02:23 AM

The thing that attracts me to rope rigging instead of stainless, is that it doesn't kink. I think I'm going to try making new sidestays for my boat using rope.

Originally Posted by Wouter
If anybody is wondering what I meant earlier by rudder stocks made from bending high grade aluminium tube.

It looks like this :

and it is simple, strong, light and cheap.

(even some non-F16 builder has seen the light in this respect, as this boat is not an F16)



Should've been an F16.


What about billet aluminum? Machine it out of a solid chunk?
Posted By: taipanfc

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/19/09 02:58 AM

Rope is great. Just when packing up found best to do each stay or trapeze separately as the knots can be really annoying to undo when you have 2 or 3 or more lines all tangled together.
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/19/09 03:13 AM

I think I'd bungee them to the bottom of the mast and leave them on the mast. Right now I strip the forestay, and sidestays off the boat for trailering. I don't like how they rub on the mast, or the tramp when going down the road, but I leave my rope trap lines on and secure them this way.
Posted By: Stewart

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/19/09 07:20 AM

I would suggest 4 at a minumum.. in no order.. Blade, Falcon Stealth & Viper and Im guessing with a good crew dont dismiss the Tiapan.. Watch the space more to come I suspect.. crazy

All does look good for the class... If we dont fukc it up with rule changes..
Posted By: Hans_Ned_111

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/19/09 09:12 AM

An 80 kg F16 double handed is not possible at this moment, it will be not strong enough even in full carbon.
The loads on A-class are far more different than on a 2 man boat.

Hans
Posted By: Hans_Ned_111

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/19/09 09:14 AM

The stocks are from the Hobie

Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
The thing that attracts me to rope rigging instead of stainless, is that it doesn't kink. I think I'm going to try making new sidestays for my boat using rope.

Originally Posted by Wouter
If anybody is wondering what I meant earlier by rudder stocks made from bending high grade aluminium tube.

It looks like this :

and it is simple, strong, light and cheap.

(even some non-F16 builder has seen the light in this respect, as this boat is not an F16)



Should've been an F16.


What about billet aluminum? Machine it out of a solid chunk?
Posted By: Marcus F16

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/19/09 11:06 AM

Originally Posted by Wouter


Simon,

You know what is also missing in those pictures ?

Excessive waste !

Like large drops or rims of resin and filler.

Have you ever looked inside some of the big builder boats.

I must say that Australian Formula Catamarans builds some tidy hulls. This attention to detail and clean working sort of hints at a very high standard of quality control.

Wouter


Yes - you could eat your breakfast off the inside of our hulls. These hulls are built by a professional, experienced shipwright - not $2/hr labour where quality control does not really exist.
Posted By: Marcus F16

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/19/09 11:11 AM

Originally Posted by Wouter
Quote

My FCA blade weighs in at 1.5 kg over minimum with the only carbon being in the foils. You don't need an all carbon boat to reach minimum, that's a myth.



Well done FCA !

I remember the prototype Aussie Blade to be 112.7 at the Global challenge 2007. To see it come down to 108.5kg or just 1.5 kg over minimum without carbon hulls, beams or even a carbon mast is great !

I assume this doesn't include the jib sail and track ?

Put a carbon mast on there and you'll have to carry lead !

For all you forum readers out there, The Aussie Blade F16 hulls are indeed very close in freeboard and volume to the Viper F16 hulls, not to mention the platform is at full F16 width. The same points that are given as the cause for favouring raising the min. class weight.

Wouter




Wouter - Aus 405 weighed 105.5kgs cat rigged ready to sail.. Only carbon is in the foils
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/19/09 11:13 AM

Quote

The stocks are from the Hobie



Correct, as seen on their iCat.

I now had some time to dig up a pic of the F16 version my huge database of pictures.

The sterns are undoubtably of a VWM Blade F16

Wouter

Attached picture Blade_F16_rudder_setup_from_catamaranparts.jpg
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/19/09 11:33 AM


Karl,

Quote

Should've been an F16.



See my post above. I was too lazy yesterday to look for a pic with the F16 version of these stocks.


Quote

What about billet aluminum? Machine it out of a solid chunk?


In short, too heavy and too expensive. Lots of alu waste and owning such a CNC machine costs too. The square tubes come standard and all that is needed is a less expensive bending machine. There is no waste and the tubes are hollow which makes them both strong, stiff and lightweight. I think catamaranparts is welding them and that is a skill, but I've personally made 3D alu objects using aluminium glue and (monel) rivets and that seems to work very well too.

The rivets (or bolts) prevent the glue from being broken by a force splitting/leveraging the components apart, while glue handles all shear force and takes care of all play. If the contact surface is large enough then the glue can handle quite alot of "pulling apart" force as well. It can hold 160 kg per square cm. and that translats to 2279 lbs/sq inch.

My Australian friends told me that home builders used to make such stocks by hand over a hand made timber jig. I think one pours sand in the tube to prevent it from collapsing and just slowly bend it around a curved shape. One that is adjusted for the elastic spring-back.

Wouter
Posted By: mini

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/19/09 02:09 PM

Originally Posted by Stewart
I would suggest 4 at a minumum.. in no order.. Blade, Falcon Stealth & Viper and Im guessing with a good crew dont dismiss the Tiapan.. Watch the space more to come I suspect.. crazy

All does look good for the class... If we dont fukc it up with rule changes..


Yes it does.

The 2 biggest selling points in the f16 class are weight and versatility. Jacking the boat weight does nothing for the growth of the class.

If weight is that important to the Viper owners, then let Greg know. If buyers stop purchasing or push enough, he will build to minimum. His only motive to build as he does now is so he can have 2 models using similar parts, and have cheap Asian builders doing the dirty work. Soon as sales dropped on the Cap - hey we have a new design on the water.

As far as a split to 1 design, there is a long way to go till they have numbers. The Tiger pulled it off for a while, but they had many times more boats and even that has died as the formula concept became stronger and more accepted. Look at the Unicorn in the A class, same deal. yes there were more Vipers at the GC, but those were pre-sold Alter cup boats that the owners had to bring back for that event. Not too many were sailed by their owners. None of the chartered Viper teams is a regular F16 campainer, (Except maybe Brett) There are roughly 60 Blades, 10 Falcons and 20 some Taipans sailing in the US. Pulling a 1 design on a regular basis for the 13 or so Vipers is tough go. Yes France has a lot a cat sailing, but that is not 1 design either. There is a drive for 104, but no one can agree what the rules should be as each manufacturer is trying to make it fit theirs, so it doesnt even exist in form yet. It may or may not ever take off in France, and no where outside of there have I ever read anything about anyone taking up that torch.

The F16 class is a semi-developmental class. There are 3 builders capable of making min or near min weight boats now. 1 builder for economic reasons has elected to show no inovation, even to the point of properly sizing foils, so now there are a few vocal individuals who want to force the class rules to fit them - I do not understand the logic. The Viper is a nice boat and as proved, given the right drivers, weight is somewhat secondary.

So why the push to F-up the class?
Posted By: Aido

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/19/09 06:48 PM

What do you mean that no one can agree what te rules can be for 104. Its simple the boat must rate 104. Doesn't get simpler than that.

The F16 that is the long lost topic of this thread was racing as a 104. So although the boat is class compliant f16, its really a victory for the C104. Let me assure you that is does exist. I can see a split down these lines occuring in Euroland very easily. Anyway we can "hopefully" remain ignorant to it and it may go away.

IMO changing the class wieght should have been done when we were talking about it the first time. Its too late now. Just for my own intrest i would like to see the wieghts of the boats at the global challenege published so we have something to aim for.
Posted By: mikeborden

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/19/09 08:16 PM

I'm not trying to sturr the pot, but I was there at the GC and have some ideas of the boats weighed...

The only boats that I can remember that made the minimum was the Taipan and the Blades....

All other boats were a little over, while the Falcons being closer to the min than the Vipers....

My boat weighed right at 129kgs...Viper 132.

In my opinion...

I think the minimum weight should be left alone...As you can see I have one of the heavier boats and I don't care how much the boats weigh, of course that's within limits here. smile

The box rule is there and this is a semi development class, more so than the F18, but not quite the A-class...

Now, if it starts to turn out like the A-class where something becomes astronomically expensive or something new that makes the boat a whole shitload faster, then maybe we need to rethink the rules. But, even the A-class hasn't made any astronimical strides in the last few years. Hec, even the banana boards haven't made the "older" boats obsolete. Hell, you can get a good A-class that's a few years old, throw a new sail on it, and be competitive....


I was the only singlehander Viper there and I was slow...So tell me, is it the heavy boat or the skipper?

I might just sell my boat and get an older Taipan so I can be faster on the course, cause it's lighter......I should be in the front of the pack, right? cause it's lighter? Right?

Or maybe, just maybe, it's the skipper?


smile


Mike
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/19/09 09:33 PM



Quote

Just for my own intrest i would like to see the wieghts of the boats at the global challenege published so we have something to aim for.



In that case hop over to this thread

http://www.catsailor.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=197034#Post197034

Wouter
Posted By: Stewart

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/20/09 12:26 PM

I suspect if Jim Boyer was building the Viper then she would be far lighter..

Posted By: Buccaneer

Re: Another F16 Blast. .. Very Well Done ! - 11/20/09 01:13 PM

For a singlehander I have to agree as the Viper is a just a MUCH bigger/ heavier boat then the Taipan. cool Also those dagger boards are always getting in the way (as evident) but this is not an issue with the Taipan. grin


Originally Posted by mikeborden
I'm not trying to sturr the pot, but I was there at the GC and have some ideas of the boats weighed...

The only boats that I can remember that made the minimum was the Taipan and the Blades....

All other boats were a little over, while the Falcons being closer to the min than the Vipers....

My boat weighed right at 129kgs...Viper 132.

In my opinion...

I think the minimum weight should be left alone...As you can see I have one of the heavier boats and I don't care how much the boats weigh, of course that's within limits here. smile

The box rule is there and this is a semi development class, more so than the F18, but not quite the A-class...

Now, if it starts to turn out like the A-class where something becomes astronomically expensive or something new that makes the boat a whole shitload faster, then maybe we need to rethink the rules. But, even the A-class hasn't made any astronimical strides in the last few years. Hec, even the banana boards haven't made the "older" boats obsolete. Hell, you can get a good A-class that's a few years old, throw a new sail on it, and be competitive....


I was the only singlehander Viper there and I was slow...So tell me, is it the heavy boat or the skipper?

I might just sell my boat and get an older Taipan so I can be faster on the course, cause it's lighter......I should be in the front of the pack, right? cause it's lighter? Right?

Or maybe, just maybe, it's the skipper?


smile


Mike
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