Annual cost comparison between makes

It is sunday and it is that time of year again to do a comparison between costs of owning a F16 and the closest competition. Always a fun thing to do during winter time.

Quotes are basically all in Euro's for that is were most web based quotes can be found. The ratio between Euro prices should however translate to similar ratio's for non-european markets. Note however that the Falcon quotes in USD are exact; it was the only one in USD that I could find on the web.

So here goes,


(14.750 Euro) 16.000 USD Falcon F16 (standard 2-up = carbon foils, stocks and pentex suit of sails)
(18.250 Euro) 19.800 USD Falcon F16 (+ carbon mast ; otherwise same as above)

Source : http://www.falconmarinellc.com/falcon_pricing_2009.pdf


15.990 Euro Viper F16 (standard 2-up = carbon foils, alu stocks and pentex suit of sails)

Source : http://www.lindstaedt.com/neuboote.php?rubrik=neuboote&typ=Viper%20F16&nra=25&x=0


I can't find a recent web quote for the FCA Aussie Blade or Stealth F16's



The 17 foot competition

17.600 Euro Hobie iCat ((standard 1-up = carbon foils, mast and beams but no jib or spinnaker)
If a jib and spi package is ever offered for this boat then it will be about 1850 Euro additional cost. Thus making the cost price for a fair comparison about 19.450 Euro's

Source : http://www.proust-sailing.com/polyester-55/4346-hobie-i-cat.html


16.875 Euro Nacra F17 sloop (standard ; alu mast and pentex suit of sails)

Source : http://www.lindstaedt.com/neuboote.php?rubrik=neuboote&typ=Nacra%2017&nra=5&x=0


14.053 Euro Hobie FX-one (standard 1-up = no carbon, alu mast, no jib, no spinnaker)
About 17.000 Euro when fitted out for 2-up sailing with additional stuff like jib and spinnaker.

Source : http://www.proust-sailing.com/polyester-55/492-hobie-color.html



The F18 competition

19.815 Euro Hobie Wild cat F18 (Standard 2-up; carbon foils, pentex sails, alu stocks and mast)

Source : http://www.proust-sailing.com/polyester-55/4371-wild-cat.html


18.250 Euro Nacra Infusion F18 (Standard 2-up; carbon foils, pentex sails, alu stocks and mast)

Source : http://www.lindstaedt.com/neuboote....Nacra%20Infusion%20F18&nra=7&x=0


18.000 Euro Capricorn F18 (Standard 2-up; carbon foils, pentex sails, alu stocks and mast)

Source : http://www.lindstaedt.com/neuboote.php?rubrik=neuboote&typ=Capricorn%20F18&nra=22&x=0


15.613 Euro Hobie Tiger F18 (Standard 2-up ; price DOES NOT include race package = pentex sails, spi snuffer etc)
The race package upgrade (needed for a fair comparison) will easily add over a 1000 Euro's to the price => final price estimate for the Tiger F18 will be 17.000 Euro's

Source : http://www.proust-sailing.com/polyester-55/495-hobie-tiger.html



The general competition

14.935 Euro Cirrus Evolution (standard 2-up ; carbon foils, alu stocks, sails, alu mast, beams and stocks)

Source : http://www.boulogneconceptionmarine.com/fr/catamarans-fiche.asp?IdProduit=3


13.874 Euro Hobie Max Sport (Standard 2-up : alu mast/stocks, no selftacker, no spi package/snuffer, dacron sails)
This is not the Race++ version, the one that is comparable to F16's; for that you'll need an upgrade package ; add minimally 2000 Euro's => about 15.500 Euro's for fair comparison.


13.650 Euro Nacra 500 2-up spi (standard 2-up : no carbon, no daggerboards, alu mast, spi snuffer)

Source : http://www.lindstaedt.com/neuboote.php?rubrik=neuboote&typ=Nacra%20500&nra=3&x=0


10.585 Hobie 16 (standard 2-up ; no carbon anyway, alu mast, dacron sails and no spi kit.
Upgrade with spi kit is just ove 2000 Euro's extra making the Hobie 16 + spi about 12.500 Euro's

Source : http://www.proust-sailing.com/polyester-55/486-hobie-cat-16.html

Wouter

Thanks Wouter!

Wouter, thanks for all the research and the info, but really what you are comparing is the cost of -buying- the boats. The cost of -owning- is nearly the same after you've bought the boat. The add on parts and sail prices are nearly the same.

It's nice to know but if someone is going to lay out $16,000 for a new F16, the extra $2,000 isn't going to prevent them buying a F18 instead, especially if there is already an F18 fleet in their area.

The "selling point" for the F16 class (at least for me and many I have spoken to) is the Flexability it allows, to race Uni or Sloop, all in the same group, and no minimum crew weight.

You don't have that flexability in any other class of racing cats. Even though we could all race an F18 solo, their rules don't allow it so if you like the ability to still come out and race even if your crew bails on you at the last minute, your only option is the F16.

The "selling point" for the F18 class is; there are more of them out there, so they have more fleets, at more regattas, they also have a much larger Used Boat market for people to get into the class much cheaper than buying a new boat.

In time the F16 class will grow and also have more fleets at more regattas, but I am not interested in starting a turf war with the F18's, especially over price.

They have done a great job bringing the class to America and growing it here. If I had a regular, reliable crew I might be on one myself, but I don't, so the F16 suits me much better. I can't afford a new boat no matter which is cheaper.

$16000-$18,000 is a lot for a toy no matter who you are. It's a really tough sell to Mamma and the kiddies over here when for that amount you can buy 2 (or more) brand new Jet Ski's and a year's worth of gasoline and the whole 4 person family can go out together, no matter what the wind is. Zero learning curve, even Mamma and the kids can drive on day 1.

I understand in Europe things are quite different and sailing may be much more popular than Jet Skis, especially with them being banned in some areas, and the relatively high price of gasoline, etc. But over here, we fight that battle every day.

What we need to do is bring in new blood to the sport, not just converting F18 sailors to the F16, that really doesn't grow the sport, that's just playing musical chairs. I think right now our best bet is to show up in force at Monohull regattas and try to poach the kids off their Opti's, show them how much more fun trapping is than sitting on a Laser, and going 3x the speed of the Laser. Still, a kid can find a used Laser and go racing for about $1,000-3,000. Try finding any used F18 or F16 for even twice that amount. That is the other battle we fight, cheap, entry level cats are hard to find. I have been looking for a clean, ready to race, used Hobie 16 for my Doctor friend for months, but no luck so far. If I were king, gasoline would cost $5.00 a gallon (which is still cheaper than in Europe), we would all be driving electric cars and Jet Skis' would be banned for noise pollution alone.

Preliminary conclusion.

As in the preceding years, the commercially offered Formula 16 boats are cost price wise at the bottom of the market. That is to say with respect to similary configured alternatives. However, the F16's are also never more expensive then 1000-2000 Euro's compared to the cheapest 2-up and spinnaker equipped options available.

This is in my (biased) opinion a considerable achievement because the F16's came standard equipped with components that are regulary considered upgrades or optional race-packages with respect to other designs. Point in case are snuffer systems, selftacker systems, carbon foils and pentex sailcloth. Such upgrade easily add 1000-2500 Euro's to the base price.

In this respect the F18 quotes are alot more dependable as these two included the basic stuff that F16's consider standard. Only exception here was the Hobie Tiger quote.

Clearly the F18 quotes are on a par with a commercially offered F16 that is fitted with a carbon mast. In that setup the F16 in question is very close to the minimal class weight of 107 kg. This will make the F16 in question a more advanced boat altogether for no additional costs compared to basic F18's. This is without the need to have anything other then plain cost effective glass/vinylester hulls.

I feel this positions the F16 boats very nicely in the larger beach cat scene and validates the F16 concept (and class rules) as it currently is.


On to the future !

Wouter

Tim,

I don't think any of us are looking to convert F18 sailors. That was not what my post was about.

It was about analysing the cost side of buying an F16 compared to its alternatives. Afterall, any potential buyer looks at a set of factors before deciding to buy. Buying costs is a separate factor as indeed operation costs, suitability of the design and available classes are.

In my opinion it is wise to not overprice the F16 in relation to the competition in order to provide an attractive total package to a potential new class member. Maybe F18's can ask more because they have big fleets as a class. If so then I want less expensive F16's in order to balance the comparison.

The analysis provided in the earlier posting confirms that buying cost is rather a pro then a cons for the F16's; despite some rumours and claims.

The analysis also puts any claims about the costs associated with the use of carbon in perspective or the costs associated with a mild development class. F16 does both and is still in the bottom half of the market cost wise.

That was all.

Wouter

Thanks Wouter, as I said, I do appreciate the work you have done here. So how about some A cat prices to show what a full carbon boat costs? Or a new M20 carbon, or that new Nacra 20, isn't that going to be all carbon too? I know a carbon tiller extension costs $300, that's why I don't have one!

Someday I hope the entire world is made of carbon, our cars, bikes, boats, everything including me, should be ligher and stiffer, just ask my wife...

So what is the big holdup in converting everything from steel or aluminum in the Auto world anyway? Carbon costs?

I was thinking about the Corvette, which has always had a (heavy) fiberglass body, why have they not gone to carbon? How much carbon could there be in a little Corvette body? Or have they gone to carbon but not advertised it? What is the bottleneck in the carbon production process?

Is it that raw materials are in short supply or the manufacturing process itself takes longer? Or is it just too damn expensive so there is not enough demand, as long as there are 3 cheaper alternatives, Steel, Aluminum and Fiberglass?

I bought graphite fly rods 20 years ago and they were cheaper than Bamboo, so what's the hold up for our cars and boats? Why hasn't the price come down on Carbon Fiber? With more mass production, isn't the price supposed to come down, like with cell phones and iPods? Or has China and India not learned to manufacture Carbon Fiber yet?

I think people are pretty fed up with your pissing contests Wouter, however well-intentioned they may be. You REALLY need to learn that comparing F16 to anything else is going to get someone somewhere rushing to their keyboard to shout you down - you do nothing to assist the acceptance of F16 globally with actions such as these.
I can't ever recall any other class consistently (over a number of years) resorting to comparisons such as these to justify their existence - and that is for a number of good reasons not least of which is that we all have to play in the same sandpit together!

22.250 Euro Nacra 20 One-Design

This is the old Nacra 20 design and not the new one, however, this price quote does incl. the carbon mast.

Then there is also an upgrade called "race package" for 1.180 Euro's. Often this refers to things like replacing the spi sheet but a swiftcord like line (or whatever is HOT these days)


Source : http://www.lindstaedt.com/neuboote....ra%2020%20one%20design&nra=8&x=0

It is very hard to find quotes for A-cats on the internet; if anybody has them then I would like to received them.

Same for the M20 and M18. But I really do not care much for Marstrom pricing. Even simple items cost a bundle with them.

2 to 3 years back I was assured that I could buy a Tool A-cat in its most basic form for 13.500 Euro's. That is the lowerst dependable quote I have ever been able to get.


With respect to carbon shortages.

One reason is lack of production capacity. It seems that especially airplain builders use lots of this stuff. But there are more reasons. For example, you won't believe how inexpensive aluminium can be. Not to mention the savings on not having to hire skilled workers.

In fact, aluminium extrusion is a well understood process with specialized mills doing huge turn-overs. But even better is the fact that aluminium is also low-risk for them. Even if a customer for a custom order doesn't pay and miraculously disappears then his batch can just be chopped up and melted for a new extrusion batch WITHOUT any loss of product quality. Try that with carbon !

Wouter

um ... Tim, you are made of carbon.

Then why am I neither light nor stiff, just expensive?

Well, not too many car companies are using aluminum, and not too many racing cats are building hulls with it either, but it is very common on Pontoon boats over here.

In respect to cars, sure it is. Land Rovers have aluminum bodies. Mitsubishi Lancer EVO's have an aluminum hood, and front fenders, Nissan 350Z aluminum hood. I'm sure there's tons more too. Theres a company in Ogden Utah that building AC Cobra copies with aluminum bodies as well. They're bodywork is so good they can send em' out polished. They also did a Cobra with a billet aluminum frame, no welds. Really cool stuff there.

Lightweight tire rims ?

Wouter

Not to mention engine blocks, pistons, heads, suspension parts is getting pretty common, by brothers pickup has an aluminum driveshaft, I haven't seen a non-heavy duty transmission housing that wasn't aluminum in a long time.

Well here is an embarrassing comparison.....

http://www.assassinmoth.com/

ASSASSIN RACING GRS - Full complete boat including Assassin/Holroyd Carbon Foils - $15200 NZD (approx $10200 USD and $7200 Euro)

Also Includes FREIGHT to all major airports worldwide *

these bad boys will give your F16 a sound flogging in anything over 5 knots of breeze.

for bang for buck I don't think the current foiling moths can beat

Agreed.

Well, I'm into sailing. Not swimming which is what I would end up doing all the time on one of those bad boys

I'm not so sure about that Dazz. I've only raced the foliers twice and we flogged them both times. Once on an Yvonne and once on a F16. They might have a higher top speed but they don't neccesarily get round the course faster.

Actually, that's not entirely correct.

We a thing overhere called 19% VAT tax and to that comes some 3% additional charges by various names but best understand as import taxes. The 19% is also included in the quotes of my earlier posting.

122% * 15200 NZD = 18544 NZD = 9007 Euro's

Still a good price though.





They'll have to get out through the surf first I'm afraid.

And there always tends to be one for "anything over 5 knots"


Wouter

Wouter

A mate of mine gets his assasin moth at the start of December. So I'll guess we will find out what's faster. Even with a even crew skills I wouldn't expect the moth to flog an f16. It would be very close. The moth has some pretty wide tacking angles.

We had a regatta about 3 weeks ago, I sailed the f18 and we had a mixture of a-class and taipan 4.9's in the fleet.

the moths showed up with a skill range from 10th in the last worlds to a beginner with 2 months experience.

upwind we were fine, pointing miles higher and going away but downwind the moths trundled away, it was very impressive.

we could hold our own with the newbie but the pro was long gone. If your a good sailor then the potential of the moth is just awesome.

If only I was 20 kilos lighter and years younger!

I now have a new found respect for their speed potential.

Don't be a pussy get to the top mark first and send it.

Downwind the moth kills the F16 once on the foils. On one of the few times I sailed against the Nacra 20, I had given them a 200m headstart and still beat them to the bottom mark.

We do have wider tacking angles, but these narrow as the boats get faster. 14-16 knots upwind is common.

Hit 26+ knots yesterday downhill and the wind was only in the high teens...

But there is a massive and long learning curve in them with lots of swimming. And yes Wouter, we can't launch through the surf, but majority of people don't.

So bang for buck, they are certainly great value.

And who pays VAT/GST on the full price?

So what's the learning curve like and weight limitations?

The local guy went from never sailed one to 10th in the world in a little over 2 years. The impressive part is he didn't have anyone to sail with in the beginning but now a fleet is steadily growing.

two months should get your around the course with a couple of swims at the most, if the breeze is steady. The new boats have inflatable pockets under the wings, seems to help them a lot getting going.

The moths have a lot going for them, 1/3 the weight of a f16 (1/5 an f18), 1/2 the cost of a new one, and at very least comparable speed.

good on them for being truly development class, it certainly hasn't hurt them in the long run!

What about round the track? It appears that the good foilers are slightly quicker than a good A class. The modern f18s around here are a lot faster than an A, and make the old n 20 look pretty sad. The f16 eats As for breakfast as well. That's what makes me think it would be pretty close.

Ideal weight range is 60-85kg. Can go little higher than that though. But whatever weight you are, can tailor your mast/sail for it.

Learning curve, is up to you. The more you put into it, the more you get out of it. Can't emphasise this enough. Within a month or 2 you will be able to get around the course. Main thing is just changing your thinking to include the foils rather than just trim and steering.

The moths are a really impressive designs TaipanFC.

I have even proposed using them for novice control engineering student as a project. I thought there are excellent subjects that speak to the imagination of the student and allow for the optimization of simple non externally powered control systems.

I would love to give one a try sometimes or indeed cooperate in developing an automatic control setup as suggested above. Take some work load of the driver.

My other reply was just a playful stab back, nothing serious

I also like doing distances races and take a friend along. Other then that I believe a top 10 crew in the F18 worlds could also pump some more performance out of the F18's (and F16's) then we all can. However, the moth will never be a slow boat, that is for sure ! So you got a point on "bang for the buck".

Regards,

wouter

That is actually a very good point !

Wouter

We had a Moth compete with us during the autumn cup and their overall speed around the course was not that different from the average F18.
Upwind they lose some (not even that much) but their downwind speed makes up for that big time,
it looks awesome going downwind as well, like it sits on a track or something.

Wouter:
What you looked at was initial purchase price and not actual cost as you state in the subject.
If you would look at the cost per race the F18 is actually a lot cheaper because you can do a lot more races.
For example: you buy a new set of sails each year and do maybe 5 races for the F16 and 30 races for F18 the average cost per race is cheaper, see what I mean?

Another thing you cant see in the price are the costs to run the Pro teams (Nacra+Hobie) and marketing/boat shows/etc.
Add that cost to the F16 prices and I bet they would probably go up as well.

Tony,

I should have used the nomer "Purchase costs" as was indeed the true subject of my posting.

However, I also think as much was obvious from the context and layout of my post.

Other then that I rather spend money on my own boat and campaign then on somebody elses. Pro-teams should finance themselves by sponsoring or price money and not by higher purchase prices charged to mere mortals like myself.

And of course F18's are build in much larger series, what happened to economy of scale ?

Wouter

There are a few moths in Netherlands now. Look up a guy called Eelco Boers.

And for the control set up, still lots of development to go. Latest is a manual ride adjuster. Allows you to ride high upwind, and then you dial it down for the downwinds, so when your speed increases you can still ride high and in control rather than having ventilation problems. Adds about 2-3 knots of speed difference!

But gearing and sensitivity, plus trying to work out why and when vortices appear are parts of the engineering equation you would love. For me, just get on, sheet in, and launch!

Well maybe a Cat Moth is long overdue for those of us who dont want to climb the steep learning curve.... stretch a pair of Moth hulls and bolt on crossbeams... hmmm thats an idea!

well it made me smile anyway....

Lol. How not to get into a moth it looks like. Did that the first day, then all ok.

Are you sure? Maight be different on other continents.

Cheers,

Klaus

Former F16 sailor, Paul K. here in California jumped over to a moth. On a reach we can't touch them; around a course is very dependent on conditions and skill. Based on my chats with Paul, yes, the initial purchase price may be lower, but the cost of ownership may not be so different...

Also, keep in mind that the Assassin is the super bargain basement Moth out there right now. If you look at the cost of the Mach and others, you start heading toward A-class costs. I think Paul has a Prowler, but I'm not possitive; anyway, it is a beautiful and expensive sculpture of clear-coated carbon.

For example--$16,995 (w/shipping):
http://www.opensailingusa.com/Boats/Prowler/Pricing.html

Happy Thanksgiving! Any regrets in switching to the A class? Pleasant surprises?

I prefer sailing the F16 but I didn't have anyone to sail with/against, so I felt my progress was stagnating. The A-class sailors in California are very good--world champions, olympians, pro sailors, nautical and aerospace engineers, members of the BOR 90 team, etc. So the main thing is that I'm learning a lot.

He was the one racing with us, he keeps it at our club as well (along with a few others).

I may do that, but not sooner then a few months. I got some other project to worry about for now.

Thanks for the name though.

Wouter