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Botany Bay Classic > Darren Bundock sailing a F16

Posted By: Kathleen

Botany Bay Classic > Darren Bundock sailing a F16 - 02/23/10 08:14 AM

Read on Darren Bundocks Twitter: “Took line honours sailing the Viper F16 in the Botany Bay Marathon. Smashed all the F18's and bigger boats. Great race in 18 knts.”

Does anyone know something more about the Botany Bay Classic?
Pictures of Darren sailing the F16?
Posted By: Aido

Re: Botany Bay Classic > Darren Bundock sailing a F16 - 02/23/10 09:15 AM

Pictures or it didn't happen.
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Botany Bay Classic > Darren Bundock sailing a F16 - 02/23/10 03:30 PM

Quote

Pictures or it didn't happen.



That is %^#@# right !

I want to see that before I believe it.

Wouter
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: Botany Bay Classic > Darren Bundock sailing a F16 - 02/23/10 04:29 PM

According to Bundy his girlfriend (Carolijn Brouwer) finished 1st overall on handicap on a Taipan 4.9.
Posted By: self_inflicted

Re: Botany Bay Classic > Darren Bundock sailing a F16 - 02/23/10 08:57 PM

Originally Posted by Wouter
Quote

Pictures or it didn't happen.



That is %^#@# right !

I want to see that before I believe it.

Wouter


Do you think Darren would need to make up a statement like that, Or could we just say it happened.
I have it on very good authority it did happen and they both had a blast
The course had a lot of reaching in it, That's why the taipan went so well
Posted By: Aido

Re: Botany Bay Classic > Darren Bundock sailing a F16 - 02/23/10 10:53 PM

Nope we need proof.
Your authoritar is not enough.
Posted By: pgp

Re: Botany Bay Classic > Darren Bundock sailing a F16 - 02/23/10 11:44 PM

Pictures would really be nice. Any time F16s kick butt I want to revel in it.
Posted By: Brett Goodall

Re: Botany Bay Classic > Darren Bundock sailing a F16 - 02/24/10 04:39 AM

It happened.... they where on my boat!!!

Andrew Williamson was crew.
Posted By: Kris Hathaway

Re: Botany Bay Classic > Darren Bundock sailing a F16 - 02/24/10 06:20 PM

Sweet! grin
Posted By: Dazz

Re: Botany Bay Classic > Darren Bundock sailing a F16 - 02/25/10 04:49 AM

To be fair, its like giving Micheal Schumacher a vw golf and Mr Magoo a F1 racer... guess who is going to win?

Bundy is a hell of sailor, good luck catching him in anything he sails!
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Botany Bay Classic > Darren Bundock sailing a F16 - 02/25/10 08:41 AM


True, but look at it from this perspective :"what if mr D. did not win while sailing the Viper F16 ?".

I'm quite sure that the cause for it would have been laid solely at the craft and not mr. D.

Therefore I'm very pleased with this result. It may be just another proof of how capable the F16's are in skilled hands, but still much more preferable over the alternative !

Not to mention that the F16 network has just been expanded with a very famous sailor. That can only have positive effects in the long run.

Wouter
Posted By: Peter_Foulsum

Re: Botany Bay Classic > Darren Bundock sailing a F16 - 02/25/10 09:58 AM

Results are online so it must have hppened . cool
Kurnell Catamaran Botany Bay Classic Results
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Botany Bay Classic > Darren Bundock sailing a F16 - 02/25/10 08:00 PM


I just saw that Steve Brewin sailed his A-cat in the bouy race section of the event; I call that equal competition to Brouwer and Bundy !

Besides Brouwer was sailing against Bundy as they were on different boats. Interesting detail is that Brouwer sailed with Eggl who is Andrew Williams girlfriend. A bit incestious these crew combinations ! grin

Excellent video's by the way of these crews doing the rump on the C2 F18 and Viper F16 !

Great development for the F16 class !

Much thanks to whoever arranged for this !

I'm a believer now !

Wouter
Posted By: Aido

Re: Botany Bay Classic > Darren Bundock sailing a F16 - 02/25/10 11:03 PM

Excellent. Moving pictures. I'm a believer now too. Great for the f16 class especially here in Australia.
Posted By: Tornado_ALIVE

Re: Botany Bay Classic > Darren Bundock sailing a F16 - 02/27/10 02:57 AM

Question is, if Bundy was on a C2, whould he have been quicker. Bundy is a hell of a sailor. The Viper is also a hell of a boat but I would imagine the C2 would be quicker again, but not by much. Good to see Bundy having a play on the Viper. Would love to see more sailors on them.

Saw the Goodalls (Viper) up against the Brewins (Capricorn) at forster a few years ago. Racing was very close between them with the Cap taking hounours each time. Greg's comments were "there is not a lot in it, but the F18s are still a bit quicker."
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: Botany Bay Classic > Darren Bundock sailing a F16 - 02/27/10 07:36 AM

So you have begun to study metaphysics. If Bundy was on the C2 and the Viper at the same time, which Bundy would prove faster: That is your question.. Only solution is to put him in Schrödinger's box and set him adrift. He will still be faster but not for long wink


I'll go and do some more boatbuilding..
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Botany Bay Classic > Darren Bundock sailing a F16 - 02/27/10 09:30 AM


Lets expand this experiment and also introduce a Viper that is build at minimal F16 weight (minus 20 kg) ! Maybe that would be enough to fully equalize things ?

But no matter the outcome, even the fact that there is very little in it is an excellent result. Afterall the Cap and C2 were/are the most developped F18's at the time. Back then (race against Brewins) the Viper was still a prototype.

Wouter

Posted By: Stewart

Re: Botany Bay Classic > Darren Bundock sailing a F16 - 02/27/10 01:31 PM

all seems very futile.. Yes I know its all about feeling good..

BUT

We aren't competing for F18 sailors.. We have our own niche.. Lets remember that..
Posted By: scooby_simon

Re: Botany Bay Classic > Darren Bundock sailing a F16 - 02/27/10 11:18 PM

Originally Posted by Rolf_Nilsen
Only solution is to put him in Schrödinger's box and set him adrift. He will still be faster but not for long wink


I'll go and do some more boatbuilding..


Nice double there Rolf......

But would THAT cat fit in that box....
Posted By: scooby_simon

Re: Botany Bay Classic > Darren Bundock sailing a F16 - 02/28/10 08:42 AM

Originally Posted by Stewart
all seems very futile.. Yes I know its all about feeling good..

BUT

We aren't competing for F18 sailors.. We have our own niche.. Lets remember that..


Totally agree.
Posted By: waynemarlow

Re: Botany Bay Classic > Darren Bundock sailing a F16 - 02/28/10 08:43 PM

Originally Posted by Stewart
We aren't competing for F18 sailors.. We have our own niche.. Lets remember that..


I disagree strongly on this, there is a real crossover of the lighter F18 crews to the F16. Many of the lighter crews struggle with the heavy launching and recovery as well as being over canvassed in a small blow, they would enjoy their sailing more in the lighter, less canvassed boats and would probably spend more time on the water because of this. There is no real downside as the handicap rating is similar so just as fast.

In my opinion the F16 should rate the same as the F18 in both forms, single and twin handed, it would mean all crews could race on an equal basis whether they are light, heavy, female or single handed. It would mean bigger regattas and more fun for all concerned.
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: Botany Bay Classic > Darren Bundock sailing a F16 - 02/28/10 08:57 PM

Originally Posted by waynemarlow
Originally Posted by Stewart
We aren't competing for F18 sailors.. We have our own niche.. Lets remember that..


I disagree strongly on this, there is a real crossover of the lighter F18 crews to the F16. Many of the lighter crews struggle with the heavy launching and recovery as well as being over canvassed in a small blow, they would enjoy their sailing more in the lighter, less canvassed boats and would probably spend more time on the water because of this. There is no real downside as the handicap rating is similar so just as fast.

In my opinion the F16 should rate the same as the F18 in both forms, single and twin handed, it would mean all crews could race on an equal basis whether they are light, heavy, female or single handed. It would mean bigger regattas and more fun for all concerned.


Just because boats have the same number DOES NOT make them equal. It's just a number and we all know how flawed handicap numbers are.
Posted By: waynemarlow

Re: Botany Bay Classic > Darren Bundock sailing a F16 - 02/28/10 09:12 PM

So to put it in your terms, are you saying the F16 and F18's should or shouldn't have the same handicap ?
Posted By: Jalani

Re: Botany Bay Classic > Darren Bundock sailing a F16 - 02/28/10 09:16 PM

I have to agree with you David - I've found that in mixed fleet racing, F16s and F18s are not far off each other but the F18 does seem to have the upper hand in most windspeeds.
A well sailed F16 can hang with a comparable F18 on manouvreability and the fact that it does seem to accelerate quicker, but once up to speed the F18 will usually pull away until the next manouvre or mark rounding.

Round the complete course there's very little to choose between the two though as just one mistake by either can decide the eventual winner.
Posted By: Timbo

Re: Botany Bay Classic > Darren Bundock sailing a F16 - 02/28/10 10:41 PM

I agree with Dave, and there is no substitute for a second set of hands at the sets and takedowns. There is no way the F16 Uni should be rated the same as an F18, maybe only in very light wind, but anytime trapping is involved, no way they are equal.
Posted By: pgp

Re: Botany Bay Classic > Darren Bundock sailing a F16 - 03/01/10 12:04 AM

Originally Posted by waynemarlow
Originally Posted by Stewart
We aren't competing for F18 sailors.. We have our own niche.. Lets remember that..


I disagree strongly on this, there is a real crossover of the lighter F18 crews to the F16. Many of the lighter crews struggle with the heavy launching and recovery as well as being over canvassed in a small blow, they would enjoy their sailing more in the lighter, less canvassed boats and would probably spend more time on the water because of this. There is no real downside as the handicap rating is similar so just as fast.

In my opinion the F16 should rate the same as the F18 in both forms, single and twin handed, it would mean all crews could race on an equal basis whether they are light, heavy, female or single handed. It would mean bigger regattas and more fun for all concerned.


+1 You forgot to mention that every thing revolves around $! so I'd throw the A class in that mix.

We need to push this class, it's a winner!
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: Botany Bay Classic > Darren Bundock sailing a F16 - 03/01/10 01:26 AM

Originally Posted by waynemarlow
So to put it in your terms, are you saying the F16 and F18's should or shouldn't have the same handicap ?


Listen, I'm not at all interested in the handicap numbers game, that is not my preferred form of racing.

My point is the F16 fleet should focus on the F16 fleet, to say the F16 and F18 should race as the same fleet is flawed. What it sounds like to me is you want some kind of box rule that supports 1-up, 2-up, 16 feet, 18 feet, significantly differnt minimum platform weights (depending on the configuration), and minimum crew weights that are applied to some configurations not applied to others... come on guys this can't be your end game.
Posted By: Tornado_ALIVE

Re: Botany Bay Classic > Darren Bundock sailing a F16 - 03/01/10 10:00 AM

Firstly, If the F18s have a fleet, they are not going to let the F16s play with them. They don't need them.

Secondly, this is the first class I have heard off that are arguing to have their rating increased (reflect the boat is faster). If you believe it is a gift rating compared to an A or F18, you are a fool to ague agaist this advantage. No other class will.

It only sounds like little brother syndrome and nothing else. The F16 class is better than that.
Posted By: pgp

Re: Botany Bay Classic > Darren Bundock sailing a F16 - 03/01/10 12:01 PM

smile We're doing just fine.
Posted By: Kris Hathaway

Re: Botany Bay Classic > Darren Bundock sailing a F16 - 03/01/10 01:47 PM

Originally Posted by Tornado_ALIVE
Firstly, If the F18s have a fleet, they are not going to let the F16s play with them. They don't need them.

Secondly, this is the first class I have heard off that are arguing to have their rating increased (reflect the boat is faster). If you believe it is a gift rating compared to an A or F18, you are a fool to ague agaist this advantage. No other class will.

It only sounds like little brother syndrome and nothing else. The F16 class is better than that.

One F16s opinion that all F16s and F18s should carry the same rating does not represent the entire fleet. People are only stating the obvious in terms of relative performane. Yes, it is close but not the same.

Just the same as light F18 teams might find a better fit on an F16, heavy F16 teams might find a better fit on the F18. No need to bash one fleet or the other.
Posted By: scooby_simon

Re: Botany Bay Classic > Darren Bundock sailing a F16 - 03/01/10 02:09 PM

Originally Posted by Tornado_ALIVE
Firstly, If the F18s have a fleet, they are not going to let the F16s play with them. They don't need them.

Secondly, this is the first class I have heard off that are arguing to have their rating increased (reflect the boat is faster). If you believe it is a gift rating compared to an A or F18, you are a fool to ague agaist this advantage. No other class will.

It only sounds like little brother syndrome and nothing else. The F16 class is better than that.


TA; totally agree...... Fleets do not need the other boats.

I think it's only one person who is suffering from Little brother syndrome....
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: Botany Bay Classic > Darren Bundock sailing a F16 - 03/01/10 02:36 PM

Originally Posted by Kris Hathaway

One F16s opinion that all F16s and F18s should carry the same rating does not represent the entire fleet. People are only stating the obvious in terms of relative performance. Yes, it is close but not the same.

Just the same as light F18 teams might find a better fit on an F16, heavy F16 teams might find a better fit on the F18. No need to bash one fleet or the other.


+1
Posted By: Stewart

Re: Botany Bay Classic > Darren Bundock sailing a F16 - 03/01/10 04:19 PM

I agree completely..
Posted By: pgp

Re: Botany Bay Classic > Darren Bundock sailing a F16 - 03/01/10 04:25 PM

-1

My wife is only allowing me decaff. She says the real stuff makes me cranky and hard to get along with! mad
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Botany Bay Classic > Darren Bundock sailing a F16 - 03/01/10 07:34 PM

Originally Posted by pgp

My wife is only allowing me decaff. She says the real stuff makes me cranky and hard to get along with! mad


If you want to get back onto coffee you could always tell her its not the coffee making you cranky, its her. One way or the other you'll be allowed all the coffee you can drink. wink
Posted By: waynemarlow

Re: Botany Bay Classic > Darren Bundock sailing a F16 - 03/01/10 09:28 PM

Originally Posted by Tornado_ALIVE
Firstly, If the F18s have a fleet, they are not going to let the F16s play with them. They don't need them.

Secondly, this is the first class I have heard off that are arguing to have their rating increased (reflect the boat is faster). If you believe it is a gift rating compared to an A or F18, you are a fool to ague agaist this advantage. No other class will.

It only sounds like little brother syndrome and nothing else. The F16 class is better than that.


What you all seem to forget is that here in Europe the F16 Uni ( Formula 16 1.008, Formula 16 Uni 0.982 Formula 18 1.005 ) gives time away to the F18, we have no chance of competing with the F18 as a uni sailor, my understanding is that in America it is the other way around. Mind you in real terms the 2 minutes per hour is really academic to say the least.

John Jalani got it just about right when he said on the water we just keep up with the F18's and no more, whether or not we are uni or dual. The SCHRS as it is set up cannot compute the single handed factors like not having enough hands and the extra delay in sail handling that a Uni dictates and in my opinion the formulae should be able to allow such factors. I'm sure Scooby Simon would disagree.

To date in all the sailing I have recently been to, there has never been a big enough fleet of F18's to warrant excluding the F16's but then I tend to only go to competitions where other F16's are and that tends to be our TT's with the exception of Simons home event, where the F18's are taking no prisoners and will run over you and protest rather than take a poor race result. In those cicumstances I would rather not sail with them but then I'm a bit of a wuss ( most of the time ). Seeing 5 or 6 F18's start and then 5 - 6 F16's seems daft to me, yes on the bigger events where numbers are higher say around 20 or more, then have seperate starts, on the smaller event just lump them all together.
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: Botany Bay Classic > Darren Bundock sailing a F16 - 03/01/10 10:17 PM

Originally Posted by waynemarlow


To date in all the sailing I have recently been to, there has never been a big enough fleet of F18's to warrant excluding the F16's but then I tend to only go to competitions where other F16's are and that tends to be our TT's with the exception of Simons home event, where the F18's are taking no prisoners and will run over you and protest rather than take a poor race result. In those cicumstances I would rather not sail with them but then I'm a bit of a wuss ( most of the time ). Seeing 5 or 6 F18's start and then 5 - 6 F16's seems daft to me, yes on the bigger events where numbers are higher say around 20 or more, then have seperate starts, on the smaller event just lump them all together.


We've already had the conversation about the F18 drivers being over aggressive a$$holes so I won't revisit that. But, I still find it odd you want to sail with those kind of people.

One more thing... if the F16 fleet gets the numbers you want your fleet will be the home of over aggressive a$$holes, that's just how it works.
Posted By: waynemarlow

Re: Botany Bay Classic > Darren Bundock sailing a F16 - 03/01/10 10:50 PM

Oh so true and I guess its the same for most sports.

Yes I do want to go and sail with F18's at big comps, its kind of fun and thrilling to line up with 20 other boats plus the more people at an even the bigger the party afterwards. Sort of something you just gotta go and do at least once a year.
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: Botany Bay Classic > Darren Bundock sailing a F16 - 03/01/10 11:09 PM

Then you probably don't want to dump on the people you're encouraging to sail with you, I'm just sayin.
Posted By: pgp

Re: Botany Bay Classic > Darren Bundock sailing a F16 - 03/02/10 12:50 PM

What the hell's wrong with you, all rational and courteous and schidt? You haven't given a boot in the nutz in months.

Feelin' ok?
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: Botany Bay Classic > Darren Bundock sailing a F16 - 03/02/10 01:18 PM

Originally Posted by pgp
What the hell's wrong with you, all rational and courteous and schidt? You haven't given a boot in the nutz in months.

Feelin' ok?


It takes a lot of effort Pete and I'm trying something new. You know, the same could be said about you too... yeah, yeah it's the decaf.
Posted By: pgp

Re: Botany Bay Classic > Darren Bundock sailing a F16 - 03/02/10 06:49 PM

"Kum bay ya. . ."
Posted By: waynemarlow

Re: Botany Bay Classic > Darren Bundock sailing a F16 - 03/02/10 10:10 PM

Originally Posted by David Ingram
Then you probably don't want to dump on the people you're encouraging to sail with you, I'm just sayin.


Err not sure where I've been dumping on people, if so sorry, all I'm saying is that in my opinion the F16, F18, and A class should all start together at smaller comps, nothing less nothing more, if we want a class winner then recording the times acroos the line should give us just that.

The upside is we don't all have to hang around for 3 starts and can get back to the beach party sooner. cool
Posted By: MitchB

Re: Botany Bay Classic > Darren Bundock sailing a F16 - 03/04/10 12:31 PM

I read a lot of forums... and the F16 forum does the most in-fighting BY FAR!

Sort your **** out guys!
Posted By: Marcus F16

Re: Botany Bay Classic > Darren Bundock sailing a F16 - 03/04/10 01:26 PM

G'day Mitch,

Loads of people are pretty tough behind the security of their computer screen & keyboard. shocked
Posted By: Wouter

Re: Botany Bay Classic > Darren Bundock sailing a F16 - 03/04/10 05:43 PM



My parents get into an argument at least ones a day, but I have never seen two people being more devoted to eachother; even after 42 years of being together.

Having disagreements out in the open doesn't necessarily mean that there is no respect or concensus at the end of the day.

Difficult issues will not go-away when you ignore them or limit yourself to being nice all the time.

That was a lesson well taught by my folks.

Wouter
Posted By: MitchB

Re: Botany Bay Classic > Darren Bundock sailing a F16 - 03/04/10 08:14 PM

I think your on the money Marcus... it's not a good look for what is potentially a great class!

Maybe a few individuals need an introduction to sailing anarchy where they can vent their opinion? Works for me!
Posted By: pepin

Re: Botany Bay Classic > Darren Bundock sailing a F16 - 03/04/10 08:18 PM

Originally Posted by MitchB
I read a lot of forums... and the F16 forum does the most in-fighting BY FAR!

Sort your **** out guys!
The F16 forum at formula16.net, where the F16 class members are, is far more tame. Discussions are civilized, agreements are reached, documents are published, votes are taking place. The problems of the F16 forum here at catsailor.com are two fold:

- Wouter abrasive way of stating stuff which is rubbing quite a lot of people the wrong way;
- People outside the class with an agenda trying to stir **** by stating stupid things (Minimum weight anyone?).

The sailors in the class can't care less about those people opinions: they are not class members and Wouter is not part of the class anymore.

The people I sail with in the UK are fine people. The people I'm going to meet at the Europeans in Italy are going to be great I'm sure. Only the ones nobody sees on the water sailing an F16 are apparently compelled to explain why the class they never tried is a bad idea.

So I disagree with you, it's not in-fighting. There is no in-fighting really, only people from the outside not wanting in and being butt.

Frankly, it's a mystery to me why this class is attracting all the nutters...
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