EURO CAT

First day racing saw 4 races in slowly strengthening winds.

The F16 are included in the C1 Class.

EuroCat C1 Class Results

fixed the link for you

http://www.yccarnac.com/usa/regates/eurocat/eurocat-2010-resultats-c1-c3-c4.html

What a difference a talented crew makes !

The intermediate standings show

Carolijn Brouwer/Liz Wardley at 1st place overall with 4 bullets

Chris Sproat/Georgina Burke at 3rd place overall with 4th, 3rd, 3rd and 7th place.

Gill de Bruyne/Kathleen van den Bulcke at 8th overall with 14th, 8th, 8th and 8th placing


That in a fleet of 51 boats (that have completed at least one race). The results do already include one strike-out.

Of course things may change but the start is very good. I'm personally especially impressed by Gill and Kathleen.

Very well done to all !

Wouter

Great sailing yesterday at Carnac! Carolijn is very fast, it shows she's an olympic! In the last race we managed to get 2nd at the upwind mark (right behind a tornado) but then our spin halyard got stuck so we immediately lost 3 places :-( We finished this last lap as 5th over the line and on compensated time we got an 8th and that's our overall score for yesterday too. We are very pleased with the boat speed. Looking forward to tomorrow, with 4 BFT predicted it should be again a very cool sailing day!

The 2Bsailing all girl team on the Viper F16 set themselves a high goal for this years Carnac event (2010)

http://www.2bsailing.eu/news/news-downloads/Eurocat-Viper.pdf

And I quote (29 april 2010):

"Brouwer and Wardley have jumped at the chance to reunite on the water for a shot at creating history in the three-day Eurocat regatta in France from friday. "No all-female crew has ever won the Eurocat regatta," said Brouwer ... we thought it would be fun to take on the boys at their own game for a change"


The final result for this year Carnac in the C1 fleet is as follows.

1st Carolijn Brouwer / Liz Wardley Viper F16 - 7 points total : 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st 2nd, 1st, 3rd (one strike-out)
2nd Chris Sproat / Georgina Burke Viper F16 - 14 points total : 4th, 3rd, 3rd, 7th, 1st, 2nd, 1st
3rd Adam Butler / Nikki Boniface Spitfire - 24 points total : 5th, 4th, 6th, 2nd, 5th, 6th, 2nd
4th Gildas Griziaux / Frederique Leaute Viper F16 - 26 points : 2nd, 2nd, 5th, 5th, 7th, 5th, 20th
5th Phillipe Thareau / Claire Berranger Viper F16 - 34 points in total : 7th, 5th, 4th, 3rd, DNF, 4th, 11th
...
9th Gill de Bruyne / Kathleen van den Bulcke Falcon F16 - 57 points total : 14th, 8th, 8th, 8th, 15th, 7th, 12th


That means all 5 F16's have ended up in the top 10 (4 F16's in the top 5 !) of a competitive 54 boats racing fleet; with Brouwer/Wardley achieving what they set out to do.

I say "Mission Accomplished" for the all girl team Brouwer/Wardley !

congrats to all crews..

For more pictures of all classes go to :

http://www.littoral-ouest-photos.co...PSESSID=269930ef692102b76400a30f76cfb65e

and for the final result listing (without boat types) go to :

http://www.yccarnac.com/usa/regates/eurocat/eurocat-2010-resultats-c1-c3-c4.html


The other 2Bsailing team of Darren Bundock and Will Howden finished at 2nd place over in the 110 boat strong F18 fleet. Mischa Heemskerk and Bastiaan Tentij snatching 1st spot with only 1 point difference.

1st Mischa Heemskerk / Bastiaan Tentij 14 points : 3rd, 1st, bfd, 1st, 3rd, 1st, 4th, 1st
2nd Darren Bundock / Will Howden 15 points : 1st, 3rd, 4th, 3rd, 1st, 3rd, 1st, 3rd
3rd Mitch Booth / Pim Nieuwenhuis 29 points : 5th, 7th, 1st, 43th, 4th, 5th, 3rd, 4th

http://www.yccarnac.com/usa/regates/eurocat/eurocat-2010-resultats-f18.html

A very good start for 2Bsailing I say.

Wouter

Indeed congratulations to all crews and many thanks for putting F16 on the map in France in such a fashion !

Wouter

Impressive!

Just curious.... What handicap was the Viper sailing under?

The 104 or F16 or the Viper???

Viper Handicap I assume.

Yeah that is most likely the case.


BTW; just as additional info to interested readers

SCHRS Viper Double 1.035
SCHRS Formula 16 1.008 (rating used by the Falcon F16)
SCHRS Spitfire standard 1.044
SCHRS Spitfire Sport 1.038

The rating difference between the Viper F16 and say the Falcon F16 is 2.68 points or 96 second per full hour of bouy racing.

The new Spitfire Sport has a slightly larger mainsail (from 15,41 to 15.58 sq.mtr) and a larger spinnaker (From 17.60 to 19.20 sq. mtr.). By rating this difference (between the two Spitfire versions) results in only 0.58 points or 21 seconds per full hour of racing. The rating difference between the Viper F16 and Spitfire (both versions) are respectively 0.87 points = 31 sec/hour and 0.29 points = 10 sec/hour

The differences are rather small.

Wouter

Ok...

I'm going to play devils advocate...

Would that have changed the standings if they would have used the F16 rating?


Again, just playing devils advocate....


Mike

Congratualtions to all the F16 sailors.

I think the Falcon F16 was the fastest rated boat in the whole fleet so the position of Gill and Kathleen can only improve if different handicap is used.

Other then that I think the 5 bullets in 7 races by Carolijn and Liz sort of suggests that they didn't depend to much on their handicap number. Chris and Georgina are always fast (high scores) no matter on what boat type they are so same reasoning there I guess.

We may find that things would turn out only slightly different under F16 ratings as most boats in the top 10 are Viper F16's and would all get the same mods, thus leaving their relative placings unaffected.

Personally, I don't see the 3rd place Spitfire with 24 points jump to second place (at 14 points); the gap seems to big for that.

Wouter

We'll, we just got home from the event and here is a short report: http://bladef16.blogspot.com/2010/05/eurocat-2010.html

Concerning the Vipers, they sailed the 104 rating, but as Wouter says the results wouldn't haven't been that different with the other rating. In three of the races we finished before some of the Vipers and were rated behind. Not different enough to change the result though.

Anyway I find it a pity for the class that there was only one F16 there officially, being us on the Falcon, but I guess none of the owners had a certificate to race as F16.

We we had a great time and I hope to see MORE F16 next year!

Gill

Well done Mate. The new boat must go very well. Good report as well. Whats next for you guys?

Another good report:

FEMALE "LIGHTWEIGHTS" CREATE HISTORY IN SEASON OPENER

http://www.2bsailing.eu/news/eurocat-viper-and-c2-f18.htm

" Barely 120 kilo dripping wet, the catamaran lightweights excelled in a variety of conditions to claim the 16-foot division " ( B2 blurb )

And that is the problem for handicap systems, penalise the light boats but make no allowance for the very light weight crew, something SCHRS should be capable of dealing with relatively easily

I personally think they were actually DISADVANTAGED at 120 kg on a F16.

As such there is no need to penalized them further.

Wouter

Wayne,

I think adding weight as factor to the handicap system would make things very complicated.
The most easiest would be to add a minimum weight for every make and type of boat which is still impossible to do to my opinion.

(But I understand your reasoning, Carolijn weighed the same as we did (boat+crew) but had a more favourable rating).

Anyway, on the first day, where the lighter crews had the advantage on us we did best, on the second day with more wind we did worse...

If I'm correct, the A-cat don't have minimum weight and they race at a very high level of competition on boats where the crewweight has a lot more impact on the total weight then on the F16, so I see no reason to complicate things.

Actually I think the boat weight has little to do with the winning, the nut on the tiller does that better than saving 10 or 20 kilos any where on the boat itself. IMO if the boat is well designed ( as it would appear the new generation Viper and Falcon etc are )and has enough volume then it can handle a wide range of weights and if the mast and depowering ability is well designed, also a wide range of wind. I just sort of feel that AHPC should be a little more honest and not cherry pick the better handicap when it suits.

My biggest " beef" has always been the handicap given to the single handers, its obvious that the single hander will be slower around the course than the crewed boat as very often you need 3 - 4 hands, no single hander will beat a well crewed boat even in light winds on the handicap dissadvantage they are given. Now that is something that the handicap formulaes need to address.

At my club, the single handers often race with the jib on as well, it does equalise things up a bit, perhaps we could make the jib optional for the single handers ?

In open class racing the choice to do so is left to the owner. In class racing we already have a sufficient solution, i.e. we race first in wins (no faster handicap for the singlehander) which in my opinion is fair.

Wouter

It's not AHPC that makes the decision, it's the sailors....Yes, I know they are dealers, but a lot of people would take the slower rating because it's racing and they take every advantage they can get in a race like that. People on this forum have said that.


However, if it were me(and I own a Viper and I sail mostly singlehanded) I would do the F16 rating....Cause, that's the class I'm trying to promote. But, I'm slow anyway, so it wouldn't matter what I was rated at.


So, it again comes down to the sailor!

Mike

Who's racing with a jib Wayne? I know nobody that does except for Tom who did it a couple of times on his Dart 16 so he can try to avoid being lapped. And he recently bought a Shadow, so that's it

Not so much in recent years, but Dave an Nigel did run the jib fairly regulalry when the wind was lightish.

Tom did a horizon job on us on Wednesday night, two of the legs were virtual beam reaches and we couldn't quite hold the spinny on either of the legs where as he could. He will be difficult to beat on handicap this year as most of the evening racing are triangles.

Bitsa seems on the pace with all the F16 / FX1 swapping places along the way.

I can play that game as I have a secret weapon: the monster overlapping Stealth "R" Jib. This thing is huge, and not really F16 class legal...

I've used it Saturday with my 8 year old on the tiller to lap every other boat on the Saturday racing series. Granted, we were the only multihull and the only spinnaker boat, that helped too. My son was proud, first time he's helming a cat.

I'm still looking for any evidence F16 exists in Europe. As there was no F16 division at Eurocat only the C1. So the boats entered as Vipers. There was a F18 division so I entered my boat as a F18 not a C2.

We are trying to get a F16 fleet at the North Sea Regatta and only need what I thought was a very small number of 10 entries but so far we have only 2 boats interested. Special thank you to Gill and Kathleen De Bruyne and their Falcon for trying to get F16 active.

The only evidence that the F16 fleet is active is on a forum but not on the water.

We want F16, as we like the concept but the F16 Class needs to help itself and become active.

If you can get a F16 division at a regatta we will race as F16. No question.

Sorry for the self promotion but you may be interested in the footage http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YttAMQU9P_0

Cheers
Bundy

Nice video. Congratulations to all.

Minimum weight for an A-Cat is 75kg. The rules started without any weight limitation, but later a min. weight was added.
Anyway (boat) weight is overrated and often used as excuse.
The result is an excellent advertise for the sailors and I hope ISAF wakes up and realises that a cat (or at least some classes) allows mixed teams without disadvantage.

Cheers,

Klaus

Over to you F16 (and this is really directed at the Euro guys). You have been talking on this forum for 7 or 8 years. Really time to start turning up at the big regattas if you want to be noticed and not known as an Internet class.

As stated above, the Vipers raced as Vipers, not F16s.

If a group of Mozzies with kites turn up, should they be rated with the F16 handicap?

Well done to the 2B team.

taipanfc and Bundy,

You're both right. The F16 class DOES need to now turn up at the 'big regattas' and race. As someone who, along with a few others, has done precisely that it's extremely frustrating that so few of us have done so.
It's yet another frustration to being currently unemployed - because, with an income, I'd be out there at Carnac, Texel, the Euros etc.

If you've done a few regattas (as I have in previous classes) it becomes addictive. You can't beat those big starts and courses, the sight of 100+ cats out there, the atmosphere and entertainment ashore, the whole social side of such an event is just fantastic and, of course, the opportunity to meet people from other classes and discuss the relative merits of the boats you sail.

God! I'm feeling even more pissed off now just thinking about it. Get out there guys and sail! - you'll love it!

As a sidenote, about 10 or so Cats from the Singapore fleet have shipped their boats to Korea for a regatta. So further promotion of F16 in Asia. Believe the shipping was subsidised by the regatta organisers, but still need to take the time off and get yourselves there.

I too have serious disagreements with the way the class is run in the EU, but I think we must see a few things in perspective here.

Gill and Kathleen are to only ones who attended as good as all F16 events over the years including three F16 World Championships (NL, UK, US) and several Eurocat events. None of the Viper sailors present in this Eurocat event showed up themselves for other F16 events with the exception of mr Sproat and ms Burke who did the GC 2008 I believe. Neither do I remember seeing them listed in the Eurocat 2008 event where several F16's had arranged to meet and showcase the boats. Remember those VOILE sailingmag articles that resulted from that ? The first two Global Challenges were held in EU and were well attended by crews not present at the Eurocat 2010 event. So if anybody is guilty of slacking on the (EU) job then we all are.

Personally I feel that our problem in the EU is lack of coordination and leadership; not lack of interest or owned boats.

Of course, some of the EU problems I have detailed myself on this forum a few months ago and I agree with everybody that it is time to really do something about it. Time for a new leader I say, so I renew my proposal for the GC (excluding Marcus) to complete their tenure in a few months and make way for fresh new blood.

Wouter

It appears that some of you have forgotten that sailing and racing is a hobby to practically all European F16 owners and to save you the hassle according to my dictionary a hobby is "an activity pursued in one's spare time for pleasure or relaxation.
Therefore, there should be no guilt attached to not entering a Regatta or even Club race. It is now being implied that we letting the Class down, now that is an extremely harsh and almost an insulting view to take.
This topic is probably worth a lot more discussion but I'm not going to keep on at this moment as I don't want to provoke more verbal nonsense from Wouter in regard to his current vendetta.

Sorry Bundy but the above is such an arrogant statement, take Datchet for example, I think we have something like 10 F16's on site and some 3 -4 FX1's, not all are sailed together at the same time, but most regularly are sailed at some stage.

Only some are raced and most are sailed for pleasure and there lies the nub, not everyone races.

Most cannot afford to travel to Europe to participate and in fact very few want to travel just at the moment with the UK economy as it is. One only has to look at the GB participating crews at that race and they are all closely associated either by family associations to dealers / manufacturers ( sponsorship ) or are very active sailors wanting to improve against top sailors.

AHPC and B2 are the first F16 compliant manufacturer to start to throw money at marketing and getting the boats out there in the wider public view, and that is what has been so sorely missed in the F16 scheme of things. You will do well in my opinion as your boat will become the boat to own as most people will see the Viper in numbers regardless whether it is the best boat or not, that unfortunately is just the way of the marketing led world we live in.

But, and here is the big but, boats sold to owners wishing to race is only a tiny proportion of overall boats sold and yet you seem to equate F16 activity to those boats which race at large European based races held only a few times a year. You are on a hiding to nothing if that is the case. Yes you will sell a few boats in the first few years to racers but those will quickly dry up as those racers move on or already own a Viper.

The big sales numbers are the hidden owners such as at Datchet, who by choice do not travel, nor race, but enjoy sailing a F16 because it is light weight, fast and can handle both 1 or two up crews.

I'm racing. I will race twice a week all season. Solo on Wednesday evenings and with my youngest son on Saturdays. I may do some Sundays as well. Heck, I was racing every Sunday in February, breaking the ice to be able to remove the cover from the boat. So I resent the implication that to be "active in the class" you have to travel. I'm active in the class and I choose not to travel this year.

Traveling to regatta cost both money and time. Two things I would like to have more of So it all boil down to choices. Back in November I made my choices for the year.

I could go to Carnac and its competitive fantastic racing. But as a club racer with a really old boat I would end up in the bottom 100. Money: the expense of crossing the channel, the regatta fee and the unreasonable price of 25cl of lager on the harbour. Time: That's a day travel each ways, and would require me to take some time off from work.

Or I could go to Bala cat open on the same week-end. Nice scenery as well, laid back racing, good social scene and a low £20 fee. Shorter trip as well, requiring less time driving. Guess where Paul went this year...

Or better yet, my choice this year, is to stay at my club and get my sons into sailing. Money: None. Time: 20 minutes drive. And I feel I support cat sailing more by being present at the club, getting my two sons on cats, giving rides to people and supporting other cat sailors by being there and helping them when needed.

The only traveling I'll do this year is to the ECPR and the Italian F16 Euro. The first one is a one day event that will allow me to finally do a long distance event on the sea, the second because it's a F16 only event and I like the idea of racing real time with a bunch of other boats.

And anyway there is no chance in hell I'll travel to a regatta I don't know about at least 6 months in advance. Especially if it involves ferry crossings. And I'm not the only one. You can't expect a lot of people to turn out for an event with a 4 or 5 weeks notice.

So why do you feel the need to criticize AHPC or 2B for not sailing under the F16 handicap???

As Bundy says, if the regatta has a fleet of F16 he will sail under the F16 handicap. If the regatta has a 104 fleet, they will probably sail under the 104 handicap. If neither exists (or god forbid, a VIPER fleet) they will sail under the VIPER handicap....

Isn’t that a positive attribute that a F16 compliant boat can be so versatile... It can be sailed 1 up, 2 up or under 3 different handicaps???

Wow, there is a result everybody could be happy with and still some manage to make a pissing contest out of it. I wonder if those still have fun when going sailing.

I think if you read carefully nobody is criticising the excellent F16 and Viper results at Eurocat.

In true Aussie baiting style. I am not sure how my statement on what is happening at Datchet can be misconstrued and linked to my criticism of not using the F16 handicap.

IMO you are either in or out, join forces with the other manufacturers in the F16 box rule ( after all they initially were around 125 kilos to begin with )or set up your own 1 design ( would you really want to be racing the other 104 compliant boats, they are not the most modern of designs and the racing would quickly die through lack of competition )

I'll be at the ECPR even if my shoulder is not proper fixed; might be wanting to find a good crew; do not fancy 60 odd miles with a still to be fixed shoulder....Will know more re shoulder in another couple of weeks!

Sorry for not spending more time talking about it on the internet, but I've been too busy getting out and sailing F16.

We're back from a great long weekend at the Bala open, I will be doing Rutland open in a fortnight, we'll both be doing the Gower Challenge the weekend after that, and we're looking at a couple of options for the weekend after that too.

I've done Eurocat before, but from a practical perspective it's a real pain as the UK and French bank holidays don't line up, which means Ann can't sail.

Paul

So why does the Euro rating system not have a single rating for all F16's like the US system does?

The two systems in use in Europe (Texel and SCHRS) are both measurement based, which means that you can take any boat, measure it, and get a rating. There are ratings for the formula boats such as F16 and F18, but those are based on a fully optimised boat, i.e. minimum weight, maximum sail area, maximum length/beam etc. The Viper is not minimum weight, so can race off a slower rating in a mixed event. In an F16 event, all boats race on the water.

Paul

Hi Joanna
The US Portsmouth rating is based on results of previous races. In Europe we have a choice but the two main Catamaran rating systems are calculated not on results but boat measurements. So because the Viper is 20+kg (44+lbs) heavier its rating isn't the same as the lighter F16 104-107kg (229-235lbs) min weight.
In reality its not that big a deal but sometimes this issue can bring out the worst in people.

Hi Paul
Looks like you posted your reply just as I started to draft mine.
How was Bala? It wasn't the warmest Spring Bank Holiday I can remember and having completed three races last Monday in some particularly choppy conditions with gusts in excess of 20knots I am still feeling pretty beaten up today. I did go looking on the Bala website but nothing has been published.
Whilst discussing websites looks like Zandvoort have applied for planning approval for a new Clubhouse, I wonder if there will be two changing rooms, one for either sex!
See you next week at The Rutland Cat Open
Mark

SCHRS has two ratings for F16's Texel has one rating

SCHRS
Formula 16 1.008
Formula 16 Cat Boat 0.982

Add in the Viper with a third rating...( 1.040??)

What do your competitors say about all of the ratings?
Fair? BS? or irrelevant... go play by yourself?

No probs when we sail as a class; first over the line wins.

The viper is carrying more lard; under SCHRS if they want to sail as a Viper (so not an F16) thay can claim the slower rating.

I can't rally speak for other competitors but having been brought in a small Club with various Classes I have come to accept Handicap Racing including the inherent pitfalls.
From a personal point of view I find the SCHRS rating system to be the most inaccurate. A single handed F16 is rarely faster than either a F18, A Class or 2up F16 and yet their given rating doesn't really reflect this. Hence, when I became the Clubs Sailing Captain we changed to the TEXEL Rating system which to my mind is as good as you can expect.
However, whilst racing at Open Meetings in the UK you just have to accept that they are probably going to be using SCHRS and for some reason people here tend to think they are obliged to do so but don't ask me why.
If you haven't got the numbers to make up a separate fleet at these Open Meetings you end up racing in the handicap fleet but at the end of the day you probably knew this before you committed and traveled and so when you arrive and compete I tend not to worry about the various Classes and race solely against the other F16's, especially on the first day and depending on ones results compared to the other Classes the same happens during the following races.
So in essence I would imagine the answer to your question would be a mixture of all your suggestions, Fair, Irrelevant and go play by yourself. It's just up to the given individual how much emphasis or importance is given to each one.

So what rating did the Spitfires use?

BTW - What was the crew weight for the winning team?

119kgs

for those that are metric impaired - 260 lbs

I should have done that...:)

sorry...:)

Spitfires sailed 2 ratings:

1.044 for the standard
1.038 for the Spitfire S (with bigger main).

So... in an SCHRS Regatta you could have 6 maybe 7 possible ratings (depending on boat and configuration)on the course with F16, Spitfires and Vipers (single and double handed) that could all be called F16 boats.

Would it not be better to say that what the fleet is about is level rated racing and just consider the F16 box rule to set the ceiling of performance?

Sure beats arguing over what the class boat weight should be and gets sailors to align with the larger notion of racing 16 foot boats within the defined F16 Box.

The marketing and the reality are a bit at odds on the race course. The current reality looks more like your typical struggle for one design market share dominance then Formula Racing.

Hi Wayne,

The intention was not to be arrogant but to find out where you all are, as I said I could not find any evidence, now your email is revealing that you are out there. Maybe I need to come to you. Chris Sproat is going to email me the GBR races calendar.

We'd be glad to see you over here.

Congrats to the winners, B2B, and all of the F16s for a good showing!!!!!

Let's not take anything away from the good showing and perhaps discuss the merits or lack there of SCHRS, Texel, & Portsmouth relative to the F16 (Double & Uni) on another thread? Maybe even the stale thread at http://www.catsailor.com/forums/ubb...p;Words=schrs&Search=true#Post206977

Bundy,

Congratulations to you and Carolijn on your finishes at Carnac. Very good showing.

You know the Euro personalities better than I do, but is it a good idea to chastise the class for poor attendance? In the US where there is arguably a relatively large number of F16's almost all of them sail in their local pond only, and there are just a few who travel to actualy try and race to promote the "class". The F16 is definitely a racing platform, but it is attracting a wide variety of racers, and those who are serious racers are very few in numbers, and an event like Carnac is an intimidating place for the casual racer.

A additional hinderance to the F16 class growth with the serious racer, is the identity crises that is being driven by our own class. Handicap numbers are fine to provide a casual racing scene for the mix and match boats. If I am going to a large event I would hope to sail F16, and spending a lot on an event like Carnac to find everyone signing up for what ever "handicap" advantage they can get for themselves would be a bit of a dissapointment.

The successful classes grew in the past on branding their class. F18 was F18 no matter the boat. The H16 class is not out with multiple ratings although by rights it is possible.

This class did not exist a few years ago. Then it became a paper class, and now there are real teams and events, the class is recognized virtualy everywhere, even in places where there are no boats yet. Now, thanks to you guys some higher level promotion happening.

The continued growth of the F16 class can only help everyone, if we band together to make sure that is what is promoted.