2Bsailing and Viper F16 are keeping the peddle down !

It is almost a fulltime job to keep up with the news these days.

Brouwer and Bundock on the Viper have just won the Open Belgium Multihull Championship, while competing directly with the F18's.

They are the first mixed team to have have won this championship. The F16 concept is proving its worth by allowing mixed and all-female teams (Carnac) to get back in the game, as such the F16 concept is succeeding were the small-sails-plus-corrector-weights-concept of the F18 class is failing.

For the full story go to :

http://www.sail-world.com/Europe/Be...---Sailing-Olympian-extends-record/69628

full results at :

http://www.vvwheist.be/component/co...mei-open-belgisch-kapioenschap-multihull



But that is not all !

We also need to congratulate Phillipe Thareau and Claire Berranger for winning the French C1 Catamaran Championship over the same weekend !

They were sailing the AHPC Viper and scored a listing of 1st, 4th, 1st, 1st and 2nd.


And to top things off, 2Bsailing is reporting great interest at their "come and try" day.

Seems things are picking up in Europe as The Boatshop (Falcon F16) is reporting similar interest at their promotion days.

Great show everybody !

Wouter

"Brouwer and Bundock on the Viper have just won the Open Belgium Multihull Championship, while competing directly with the F18's."

Do you mean scratch - no handicap? I take it the boat was more likely to be sailing on handicap as a Viper as opposed to an F16. There's a penalty you know for being able to push the lightweight F16's around solo and I suspect that it was not being taken. However, I take nothing away from the acheivements of such high calibre sailors.
The results achieved give some credibility to the weight arguement looking at the predominent handicap sailing environment. If the boat was not sailing as an F16 on handicap be wary of quoting the result as being that of an F16 due to the different time correction factors.

Cheshirecatman

Well, when you have 14 F18's and 2 F16's...

I understand what you are saying but then again the Viper F16 was designed to fit inside the F16 rules and be competitive in that class. In fact, it was specifically designed as a F16 from the very onset. Additionally, both the 2Bsailing and AHPC websites identify the boat as being an F16 and in photo's and drawings the sails show the insignia VF16. Without the F16 class the Viper would never have been designed. Other then that, the rating difference of 2.5 points (taken over about a 100) is small change at best. With that you are not going to correct out to 1st when you come across the line as 5th for example. On the second day, they corrected out to 1st places while never finishing out of the top 3 on elapsed time. So the handicap contributed to at best a 1 or 2 places improvement ; the rest can be fully attributed to sailor skills (and the boat design).

To make a long story short the Viper is an F16, irrespectively of what some rating system like SCHRS says, what its real >107kg ready to sail weight is or to what rating it is sailed in a specific race.

In the past some Hobie Tigers were also awarded different handicap numbers then the F18 class as well and no-one ever made much fuss about that; so why should we do so now with respect to the F16's ?



Other then that the crew Brouwer/Bundock sailed very well even on elapsed time

In their twitter account they themselves state :

"Racing the Viper @ Knokke Heist (VVW) in Belgium tomorrow for the Open Belgium Multihull Championships and ready to take on the larger F18's"

"Good fun racing the Viper against the F18's @the Belgium championships. 8-10knts. Carolijn took line honours in 2nd race. Score of 2,1,1,2."

"Viper wins the Belgium Multihull Championship winning all three final races 2day on handicap and finishing top 3 in all races on line honours"


And of course Ding is absolutely right. When 2 F16's share a start with 14 F18's then "hell yes" you are competing directly with them for position, clean air and the lead.



Either way the cake is sliced, the Viper design proved again to be a very fast catamaran when in capable hands; able to take on much larger boats in open class racing (either on handicap or on elasped time). By extension the F16 setup is working, it is producing very competitive boats such as in this case the Viper.


Can we please stop nitpicking ?

Wouter

Where you been Ding?

Go Viper!!!! WOOOOO

Another newsflash, again dealing with a Viper F16

This was taken from the twitter tape as found on the AHPC website


"AHPC impressed at the Australian Uni Fleet Regatta. Sailing for MONASH, Goodall and Pursch won the skiff/catamaran division on the VIPER"


The stuff just keeps coming !

Wouter

Great boat and a talented crew however not an F16 result. If entered and scored as an F16 fair enough, but it wasn't the case. Only one F16 on the results sheet in mid-fleet. It's not nitpicking it's playing by the same rules.
In the early days of F18 the rating differences were exploited in the same way by some "manufacturer class designs" in open events. I cannot honestly recall the last time that happened with F18 boats. Whilst F16 sailors are exploiting the softer handicap of the Viper to claim this as an F16 victory is is just not so. An admirable result? yes, but not an F16 victory. If the same result had been achieved as an F16 entry and scored as such - fair play, but not this one.

Cheshirecatman

"Does a rose by any other name smell less sweet ?"

Wouter

Anyway to get the times so we can put this topic to bed?

I looked but coulsn't find them.

It was hard enough to find the corrected results already, took me well over an hour of googling.

Maybe Gill or somebody is more successful here ?

Wouter

Wooter, Many times I have tucked in behind a group of 4 or 5 F18s or Hurricane 5.9s (all covering each other), when racing the Spitfire, and beaten them all on handicap. It's quite easy to do when you do not have to get past them on the water.

Congratulations formula 104!!!! maybe we need a 104 forum?

You did maybe in some shared start local race while sailing the Spitfire (with an even slower rating then the Viper) that everybody otherwise ignores, but Brouwer/Bundock in the Belgian championships didn't. Remember, their worst result on elasped time was 3rd and they were also first over the line at least once. I'm also quite sure that the other crews tried to stuff them as they were directly competing with them for the title.

Therefore I say that it is a very good result by a design created for F16 racing; no matter what smoke and mirrors certain Capricorn F18, Infusion F18 and Spitfire sailors are throwing up.

And before we forget, the SCHRS F16 rating is slower then the F18's as well and therefore the same situation can arise there to, although you need to be really on their heels then.

Wouter

Go for it then, set one up and get on with it, we wouldn't then have to deal with mind set Aussies who can't take a good hint to take there repeated views else where.

Perhaps we could then talk about boat setup, sail design, racing calenders, you know all the the things that promote a good strong class, without the intervention of the doomsdayers from Aussie saying we are all doing it so wrong.

Ignoring Dazz silly post.
Wouter, I am talking about Irish National events where my ability is about the same as the competition (certainly not up to International standards). It is easier to beat someone on handicap, if you don't have to pass them on the water. What was the standard of the Belgian sailors who were sailing against two of the top sailors in the world ?
I held off a Wildcat in the Shadow in a 1 hour club race last night. He passed me 50m before the finish line. It's all about who is sailing the boat

Numbers two and three from the Belgian event where 21 and 23 at the last F18 worlds, I think its fair to say these are skilled sailors.

I agree !
I think that I have been on this forum long enough for people to know that I believe in the F16 concept and am not knocking the Viper.
My only point is that it is a lot easier to sit close behind a cat with a lower handicap number and win a race than it is to get past them to win the race. I have done it many times.

But then a 16ft cat with a smaller sail area should never be able to keep up with an 18ft cat with a larger sail area, particularly from behind where the effect of the larger sail area will make that job even harder.

I though that a Formula 16 was meant to be able to do that
I don't mean sitting in his wind shadow, just close enough to win on handicap.

I fully agree with you Dermot, I too have done it many times! It's just so much easier when you don't have to actually pass to get the win.

Conversely, I've also had it happen to me the other way when on a faster boat and I just can't quite get past the slightly 'slower' boat perhaps because he's able to point higher and I can't quite get through to leeward - but then, I shouldn't have got myself there in the first place!!!!

The first 3 F18 were very skilled sailors. Carolijn and Bundy finished mostly behind the first F18 according to the race report I just read but made it on handicap.

The challenging and fun thing about sailing an F16 in an open event is that you have to apply all your tactics to get in front of the F18 as well. I have finished well in open events with a Nacra 5.0 many times because you see all the errors, the best lines and don't have to bother on how to pass the boat in front of you because they should be faster most of the time. But there is no fun in that.

If a skilled sailor sails the F16 he is perfectly capable to keep up with the larger cats and to overtake them.

Well that is undeniably true.

However the same thing can also happen if they sail off the F16 rating, that one is also slightly slower then the F18 rating, although by less of a margin. So in that sense the situation is not that much different.


Ohh Dermot, just in case, my comments are not specific to you or anything. I respect you and your opinion and you have indeed always been a supporter of the F16 class. If I have insulted you then I appologize. My frustration with some people nitpicking may have allowed my comments to come out more harsh then I wanted.

Regards,

Wouter

No problem Wouter,

It's great to see stars like Brouwer and Bundock promoting the class.

I dont really understand what dermot is trying to get at.

If you apply your twisted logic to handicap racing then the small boats should always win the Sydney to Hobart or the Fastnet or Texel. Cause the small boats have it easier???? Just doesnt make any sense mate.

Ive raced quality F18s on a 104. And from my experince its really very hard. You have to be very close to the F18 in front of you to beat them in a 40-45 min race. Not easy to do when you spend most of the race sailing in gas. Your small sails disdvantage you even more if you do get clear air. Just makes caroline and bundys victory all the more impressive to me.

If you are accepting that a Viper winning a regatta whilst using the 104 handicap is also a win as an F16, then it should be ok to sail the European champs on a viper using the 104 rating against the rest of the f16 boats?

Now I'm sure none of you stalwarts will agree with such a proposal but you must realize that you can't claim a victory for the boat whilst it's not even using the class designated handicap.

If there is a fleet of f16s to race then the f16 handicap is fine. If your in a mixed fleet that doesn't include a fleet of f16s you should take any break that you are entitled to.

Agreed, unless of course your goal was to promote the F16 as a class.

I'm all for throwing out the handicap in F18 v F16 racing.

Macca,

before trying to apply any sort of logic to this; check out who started this thread.

But one could also argue that if you are not prepared to play by the F16 rules then don't bother to turn up to a F16 organised event.

Equally if you are prepared to design and build a boat to the F16 box rule, advertise it as a F16 compliant boat on the manufacturers website, race it as a F16 in events such as the Singapore championships which you mentioned, sell it to customers as a F16 boat, then AHPC cannot complain if the F16 class extolls its winning capability on its forum.

In my view its time AHPC came off the fence and decided which class they are going to compete in, 104 or F16, it would certainly stop all this bickering that is going on.

You're missing the point Wayne. The Viper is a fine boat and is built to the F16 formula. No matter what class it is sailed in it will attract a fair number of sailors. Many of those sailors will come from the F18 ranks.

That's why so many F18 insiders are trying desparately to discredit the class and keep us away from established venues. All this nonsense about weights and handicaps is a red herring. F18 sailors who get to know the F16 will be interested in it. Some will buy.

Those builders without a F16 in their product line will loose sales. Never doubt it.

Why should AHPC get off the fence????

When it comes to the crunch, they will only keep building boats IF they can sell them... (After all, they do need to pay their employees!!!)

Having a boat that can be marketed in multiple areas is a big plus.... just ask any marketing guru!!!

And let's look at Greg's history - He started his catamaran sailing on a mosquito catamaran - Wow... A 16ft cat that can be sailed as a Uni or Sloop. Then in 1988 designed the Taipan - Wow... another 16ft cat that can be sailed as a Uni or Sloop..... Then the F16 association came along.

Even though Greg has openly spoken against some of the F16 rules, it is currently the box rule that closest fits his thinking.... Hence, AHPC has "come to play"... but that does not mean that they have chosen NOT TO PLAY the other games!!

LMAO...

That means laughing my butt off.

<**** from both sides is just plain fackin' stoopid.

The only people that would come from an F18 have either lost their crews and need a singlehanded spin boat, or they were too light and/or not up to the physical demands of the larger boat in the first place. There is nothing outside of those two things that would pull anyone from a F18. The flip side is the F16 class is more likely to loose people to F18 because a bigger team didn't buy enough boat.

If I had steady crew, (or if anyone could stand being on a floating kitchen table with me for extended periods), I'd be on an F18.

I miss MX, things were settled over a few punches, much cleaner than this pissy, little girl with a skinned knee approach.

Suite yourself, I'm game.

To me that is such an easy question to answer, as things are both 104 or F16 will simply " bobble along " as individual classes, put full support behind one or other and you have a large number of boats creating a class that looks established and numbers increasing. Like leemings, the masses tend to follow and a ground swell of activity begins, that is how all strong classes began.

Sorry but the F18 and F16 boats are so different and designed for completely different jockey weights that there will be little crossover of personel, what you do get from the two classes is two completely differnt groups of people able to compete on almost equal terms. Cool and can only be to the benefit of the sport.

AHPC should reign in the Aussie dogs who keep biting away at the heels of both classes by using personel friendships and contacts. AHPC would be surprised by how quickly things would become established to their favour if they could just keep building on the good press rather than the devisive press we see at the moment.

Never contributed to these threads but my colleagues who sail/own AHPC products would probably object to being described as "dogs"... I know I certainly do.

Stick to facts and evidence you can use to support you assertions.

In short... Keep it professional.

Welcome Dodsy:

What do you think about dumping the handicap and racing F18/F16 straight up? I'm sure the F18 would have an advantage, but is it enough to worry about?

I think if buying a modern F16-based machine, you have more credibility if you enter a regatta assuming that handicap. The only reason skippers should nominate a more favourable handicap is if they are one of only a few competitors with varied handicaps.

Basically, if I were to buy a Viper, I am seeking to compete as an F16. Simple really.

While on the subject, is there any evidence to back the conspiracy theory that AHPC is not supporting an F16 culture or is in any way attempting to sabotage your formula?

I read lots of sensational accusations (read: juvenile whinging and name-calling) but no actual substance.

Re dumping of F18 vs F16 handicap, I have not raced either enough to give a qualified answer so I won't.

I've no knowledge of AHPC's intentions, but from what I've seen they're just trying to sell boats and promote catamaran sailing; and doing a very good job at both.

Fwiw, I've seen F18s and F16s on the same course often. The finishes seem to be related more to skill than handicap.

I defer to your greater experience.

Respectfully, I don't believe F16 will inherit sailors from the F18 ranks on the grounds that most of the F18 combinations probably need the bigger platform and have a steady, established team.

I can't agree more with you regarding AHPC's intentions. I submit that a few contributors need to ease back on their invective - such a tactic will probably ease their blood pressure... It will certainly lend greater credibilty to the F16 community (vis a vis Mr Marlow's "dogs" comment).

In all respect Dodsy if you had been around for a while on this forum, you would perhaps understand my statement, the biggest "stirrers" and "waffle artists" sadly seem to be Aussie based.

Now if you are not a "stirrer" and "waffle artist" then you can exclude yourself and any similar minded Aussie sailor, from being a "dog" and join into the banter of this forum.

Can't speak for anyone else, but as I get older (I am a very fit 56) my tolerence for things like lugging around a 400lb boat has passed, especially when a much lighter weight alternative exists with the added benefit of a lower cost.

As all of us baby boomers get older, weght of the platform will become more of an issue. The weight minimum that Macca and his associates fight to increase is one of the major draws of the F16, one that can pull sailors and would be sailors from other active and dead one design and formula classes who refuse to abandon outdated excessive minimum weights.

I rest my case.

Wayne, just because I haven't posted before doesn't mean I haven't been around for a while. It was your all-encompassing descriptions of Australians as dogs with no qualification which finally goaded me into speaking.

I won't bother with further contribution (which will probably make you happy) until a more positive strain enters the debate... Response only dignifies the insults.

Agreed.

When I get too old to lug the F16 around; I'll buy an A.

107 kg is heavy? You must be kidding. Anyway for you younger guys who are looking to get fit pushing your boats up and down the beach the Viper is several kg. heavier and if that's still not enough try strapping on some lead..

No, contacts are good and AHPC has always been fully supportive of the F16 class and F16 activities.

Such rumours have always been spread by a few well known individuals looking to find a fault line that may split the class when hammered hard.

Personally, I don't care one bit at what rating the Viper sails as long as it sails on elapsed time basis in official F16 events (and in possession of a compliant measurement certicate).

Additionally, the F16 class is fully supportive of AHPC and understands that they market the boat for multiple uses (among which both F16 and F104 for the French sailors)

Wouter

Additionally,

There is actually a good market for F16's and builders and agents involved don't really see the F18 and F16 classes as being competitors; rather they express the view that they see them as complementary.

I for one envision crews moving in and out of both classes and in eachother and I think that is actualle very healthy.

I too talk to various people and indeed sailors (also F18 crews) who test sail a F16 are almost invariably very positive afterwards.

There is ample market potential for both classes and in fact both can feed of eachother and be more successful.

Wouter

+1

"There is ample market potential for both classes and in fact both can feed of eachother and be more successful."

Then I guess the builder with both types in their product line is in good shape.