Is it time to kick Macca into touch.

And so the Aussie dogs are back snapping at the heels of the class. Isn't it time we simply did a Sailing Anarchy thing ( Frank Lord ) and ban them from this Forum, then perhaps we can get on with having decent discussions about our boats. It was quite noticiable how quickly the SA forum improved in quality of discussion about foils when Frank had been given the boot.

To be fair on them we have heard them, discussed with them, asked politely, even tried to ask them to genuinely become part of the class by trying the boats on a regular basis, but no they still come back with the same old arguments despite the almost universal opposition of the majority of the active class members.

Macca if you don't want to be remembered as the Frank Lord of the F16 Forums then my recommendation is that go with your beliefs and set up the class that you think is the most practical and commercial 16 footer and get on with establishing that class. Establish the class, set up the Forums here on Catsailor, its all avaialble and doable if you really want to.

If you don't like what he says just put him on ignore. Simple.

Banning is not the answer Wayne. I like to think that we are a tolerant, inclusive bunch. If you don't like the discussion, don't get involved......

Occasionally, just occasionally, a valid and interesting point is put and a sensible, considered discussion can ensue.
I haven't yet seen any of the CS threads descend to the depths and the level of abuse seen on SA - nor do I expect it - and while that is the case we should welcome all discussions.

And stop refering to Aussies as dogs, sick of seeing that.

My argument is valid in that the majority of threads are being turned into a F16 weight issue by Macca, regardless of what the original thread was about. We have been there, discussed it at length and the majority on this forum favour the rules as they are.

Continue as things are and this same issue will be repeated over and over spoiling any real discussion on other matters. That will distract from the class and possibly be detrimental to the class as this forum is pivotal in getting the message out to other interested parties.

As I stated earlier once a certain member of SA was banned ( and I was against that as I felt he was being goaded unfairly )the discussion on foils became much more open and beneficial to all.

Farmer, if you want to misconstrue my words then by all means be "sick of seeing that " as in my opinion it would seem those that are most vocal and anti the class establishing at 107 kilos are from Aussie and continue to hound us like a pack of dogs snapping at our heels.

Now coming from down under myself I know that the majority of Aussies are pretty good blokes and I have had a lot of fun over the years with my fellow Antipodeans.

I think Wayne has a point here.

There is a difference between disagreeing in public and supporting a disinformation/slander campaign. I'm all for the first and feel we should come down full force on the last.

It is indeed true that abusive poster can be ignored, but sadly this forum and the internet as a whole is one of the more important promotion channels for the F16 class. But poisoning these resources they actively attack and disrupt things for this class. We can not allow that to happen.

I also agree with Wayne that there are striking similarities between the various distractors, geographic location being one of them. Yet, I prefer to still address them personally. I also like to call on all builders to put an end to the current ambiquety.

I don't know who is propelling the "35K scare quote for a full compliant F16" but I sure hope it isn't any builder (or agent) associated with the F16 class. Because such lack of respect for his or her fellow F16 builders can not be tolerated much longer. The time has come to close the ranks !

If we stick together publically and work the scene (last remaining distractors) on the background then we can take back thee initiative and present the truthful image of the F16 class and the various makes.

That is all for now.

Wouter

I don't know Wouter, the A class has almost no public discussion and they seem to be doing quite well. Likewise the F18 class.

It may be time to generate a much more private forum.

Posted on the F18 forum. Seems like reason enough to ban Dazz. Brings nothing to the table.

We already have a solution: http://www.formula16.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=&f=1

I definitely don't want Macca there and would vote to ban him, assuming there was such a vote.

Ignoring him works well for me.

Said in jest I would think but have a look at the boat details " Capricorn AUS 1160 " of the poster

As much as i hate to add fuel to the fire. 3.00 minutes into the interview "the price would be more than an a-class"

Must be something Australian to call a spade a spade, have you forgotten that Wayne?

Have you seen the effin' beams on the Viper? Holy cow they must be overbuilt (or off a F18) .... have you picked up a rudder assembly (including rudder) of the Viper versus other brands of F16s???? There is some weight to be saved without much effort.

The Viper is getting the press b/c who is sailing it - nothing else. The US F16 Nats showed that other boats are comparable - with less professional sailors, might I add.

The Viper is a fast boat (I've owned one) - but it surely cannot be called state of the art. That being said: AHPC makes great stuff, well thought out, fantastic finish work, awesome sail shape - but it is a BIG F16.

Flame on ... IDGAS.

There are a$$holes with agendas everywhere. Fact of life. Want me to show you my spade?

Sadly that is the problem, all Aussie's seem to be taking everything a Aussie says as being gospel, they need to look further outside Australia and they will find another outlook.

Take Gregs statement that an optimised F16 will cost more than an A class. We have in one corner a fully carboned masted Falcon, in the other corner a Marstrom A, both state of the art, built to weight and class rules, which do you think would be the most costliest.

How about this:-

You all keep sailing on the internet and he rest of us will actually go out there and do the sport.

And if any of you who want me off this forum are ever wanting my help, you know the answer..

To be honest, its not a very healthy forum if you have multiple threads all targeting one individual who's views are supported by many of their peers in the top of their profession (which by the way is cat sailing..) yet you seem to get your kicks out of continually attacking an individual ..

Ooooh, you poor little thing..

I don't think it's fair that ALL Aussies are tarnished with the same brush. Most of us like the banter. Most of us just go sailing and enjoy ourselves.

Who really give's a crap about what other who don't own a F16 think.

Us Aussies have brought the F16 world 4 designs so far 3 that are being commercially built.

I personally think you need to pull your head in. Go pull your boat out of the shed and go for a sail. It will certainly clear you head and you will forget for a while ALL the crap that goes on here.

Macca,

I have a few question for you. You have been banging on about ALL sort's of issues you have with the F16 so please can you answer these questions.

F16 rules have been around for a while.

1) Why have we not seen this so called Super F16?
2)If your Sailing peer's at the top of the profession have a problem with F16. Why have they never hit a forum to put forward there views?
3)Are you the spokesman for the people at the top?
4) If so who voted you in?
5)Do you no why three of the biggest cat Manufactures in the world are unable to build boats at weights around 107kg without using exotic materials?
6) Have you been able to sail a Viper in a decent breeze?
7) Can you tell what you thought about the product?

Thanks for taking the time to answer.

PS I don't think it's good form to ban anyone for there views even if you don't agree with them.

Macca, I can only say you have bought this on yourself.

You are forgetting the common sailor employs you and not your superior peers, without the ordinary sailor paying your wages and being on your side you will never be elected to govern. To date on this F16 forum, you have not converted those ordinary sailors into following your beliefs and gospel so therefore you are not employed by us as our spokesman

With friends like you who needs enemies ?





Actually many of these sailors don't agree with you.

Must I really post a few youtube video's as well ?


I clearly remember mr Casey arguing to leave the F16 class rules alone. Then we have the Blade and Falcon builder arguing the same and he is one of the guys who according to Greg is doing the impossible (and as such is proving Greg and you are wrong). Then I can't shake the memory of the most successful cat sailor of this day saying that he felt the Tornado move to have carbon masts was one of the best decisions ever and that he sees the fact that the F16 class also allows these in a similar light.

John Casey interview http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9gm8pvxwyE
Matt McDonald interview http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRR1zCnd0uc

I known that you have FIGJAM complex Macca, but that doesn't mean that your (unhinged) opinions are at all shared by your peers.

Wouter

I can by an Bimare A-class for 16.000 Euro.

Therefore the same statement appears to also hold for the F18's

Smoke and mirrors, smoke and mirrors all around.

Wouter

I dont support "Macca's" banter & certainly do not appreciate your your attacck on Aussies as dogs.

Waynemarlow - maybe you need to be banned from this forum.?

The very first sentence in this thread was "And so the Aussie dogs are back snapping at the heels of the class", if you want to misconstrue those words as to meaning all Aussies are dogs, then thats your problem I'm afraid.

What breed do you have in mind? Blue heeler perhaps, an Oz breed that can do the work of 5 blokes? Obviously pedigree....

Woof...

The last blue heeler we had on my fathers farm was put down, guess what for, snapping at the heels of everything and sundry couldn't stop him, just did it over and over until we got so miffed by the damage he was causing, I'm afraid he had to go. And that is a true story.

We've got a young Blue Heeler, 3 labs, 1 Jack Russel and 1 toy poodle. The toy poodle is the smartest of the bunch, but the blue heeler is the most fun! He can jump 5 feet straight up!! He won't get out of the lake and loves sailing on the Prindle.

Great dogs but constantly " busy ".

Looked up Wikipedia and it bought something back to me about them

"They have a distinctive intense, high-pitched bark which can be particularly irritating ".

[humor]Maybe it's Wayne's NZ origin that's making him bark at the aussie's dogs[/humor].

Hey Wayne, when are you going to join the Wednesday evening sailing series? We've seen you only once this year!

Oooh now that is going to open a hornets nest.

Will be back either tomorrow night or next week at latest, been concentrating on sorting out some work problems which means I have been working 7 days a week for the last 3 weeks, but nearly sorted so usual play will resume.

[/nzbash]Pepin, your not providing the right atmosphere that Wayne is comfortable with. Now you have to keep this between us...

first your going to need some supplies...

gum boots
velcro gloves
lipstick - ruby red
barry white cd's
blow up sheep.. preferably black.

If you can find a deserted paddock that would be ideal.

yeah thats right, NZ where the men are men and the sheep are nervous!!![/nzbash]

Now i have that off my chest

I only posted the utube of greg because wouter keeps going around saying "i dont know where these prices are coming from" and "i hope its not a manufacturer saying this" well wouter now you know.

Dazz
Choosing to build a high volume hull was a design and marketing decision on Greg’s part. One might say the Viper is, in essence, a length compressed (rather than globally scaled down), modified F18 Capricorn, or a for lack of a better description, a stubby F18. His design path proves to be fast in capable hands (as is the Blade & Falcon). To me this is not a drawback, but one of the beauties of the box rule...it lets Greg or anyone else for that matter, explore the design limits of the F16 within the box rules even if they do not take advantage of maximizing the platform in all areas.

Choosing to make the boat well above the minimum weight and asking for the rules to change is little different than someone making an F16 16.8% longer than the box rule (which is arrived at by dividing 125kg Viper weight by the 107Kg minimum box rule weight, which would translate to 5m X 1.168 or 5.84m /19’-2” length boat) and wanting the rule on length to be increased to accommodate one builder. This, despite the fact that the rest of the boat building community has designed and built F16's to the stated 5m rule. I don’t think anyone in their right mind would propose such a change in length, so why is weight any different?

Greg knew the rules before he designed the Viper and consciously designed outside the optimum parameters, obviously he felt the increase in volume would offset the disadvantage of the increased weight. Only Greg knows his production costs and what he needs to charge to make a profit...it may very well cost him more than an "A" cat (although after listening thru the video twice I didn't hear him put a specific dollar amount on it). That does not change the fact that other builders are building F16 catamarans within the rules that are at, or very close to minimum weight at a reasonable price....some 15K (US dollars) less than the proposed $35K price that is being thrown about. Leave the rules alone!

In fact the F16 class rules were set at 107 kg minimum weight to allow AHPC's preceding product, the Taipan 4.9 in F16 attire, to be a full compliant F16 on weight. The Taipan was in fact a foundation boat of the class and so it would do no good in forcing it to carry 15-25 kg of lead to be compliant)

We made the class rules in 2001 and the Viper was launched in 2007. No-one can't blame the class founders for not having consulting the "cristal ball".

Additionally, I regulary get a chuckle out of realizing we first needed to lower the class weight to accomodate an AHPC product only to be faced with a request to raise it in favour of another AHPC product.

Obviously we (or AHPC) can't have it both ways.

Wouter

Thread drift, this is an Aussie bashing thread not a kiwi bashing one!

I don't agree with Macca on F16 weights, I sail solo and the weight issue is a practical one when launching, recovering and righting. It's just a hunch, but I guessing increasing the minimum weight would make the boat much less attractive as a uni platform.

But don't ban him because you don't agree, just ignore him if you have to. It's pretty obvious he's throwing stuff out to see who's going to bite most of the time. Can be quite entertaining! It's like a sailing version of the classic Aussie cricket tactic of 'sledging'!

....Mark Waugh standing at second slip, the new player (Adam Parore) comes to the crease playing & missing the first ball. Mark - "Ohh, I remember you from a couple years ago in Australia. You were [censored] then you're [censored] useless now". Parore- (Turning around) "Yeah, that's me & when I was there you were going out with that old, ugly [censored] & now I hear you've married her. You dumb [censored]".

One for Dazz

How do you stop 100 Aussie men dead in their tracks. One bark from an Aussie Sheila

Hale and Pace came out to Australia for a tour (one of my favorite British comedy duo's)

Hale: Us British gave you Australian's Cricket.... and what did you give us?????

Pace: A flogging!

Hale looks at Pace oddly!

well it cracked me up

Bet the Americans don't get that one

What's ay hindu









Lays eiggs a bro

Another classic cricket sledge + even better response:


After Brandes played & missed at a McGrath delivery, the Aussie bowler politely enquired: "Oi, Brandes, why are you so fat?" "Cos every time I f**k your wife she gives me a biscuit," Brandes replied.

I like that one not sure about the less PC one above.

I always though the sheep and wellington gumboots jokes were aimed at the Welsh, must have been away from NZ too long.

.....but not long enough to lose the accent, Wayne??

Have you measured those end plugs yet?

Who is this Macca guy that everyone always talks about?

Cmon Mathew you really must know who Macca is, you know the guy we keep talking about, the fountain of all knowledge, the Messiah who keeps trying to direct us away from our evil class weight limits, wake up boy and keep up.

http://catsailingnews.blogspot.com/2010/05/cs-interview-andrew-mac-pherson.html

Congratulations on your performance at Alter Cup. I just wish there was an Olympic boat for you and Taylor to graduate to.

Thanks Pete. Yea, I wish there was too. And I wish there was college cat sailing. Still don't know who he is. lol

Interesting..
Pete Pollard posted a link to an interview with Macca, in which he says the following :
"CS - You also race on M20s, are (with the F20) boats to compare in performance?
Are you crewing the F20 at the Texel Round?
Andrew: The M20 is really a different boat to the Nacra, the costs to build a M20 like the Nacra (jib, curved foils) are more than 40k EURO!!
And now the top M20’s are sporting 3.55m wide beams with no dolphin striker!
In performace the M20 should be faster but in reality its not a huge amount and certainly not 15k Euro quicker! I love sailing the M20, it’s a fantastic boat and a technical wonder, but its jus not a realistic option for 95% of people".
I find this quite an eye-opener, he says that the 15K Euro additional expense doesn`t make the M20 much faster than the Nacra F20, yet he feels quite strongly that the ultimate F16 slayer (that has not been built) will be MUCH faster than the current down-to weight boats. While I don`t disagree in theory with him, I find his "dual citizenship" on the subject quite interesting..
I also find that he feels that such a boat would not be "a realistic option for 95% of people", yet he feels that 'the ultimate F16' will make all others in the class obsolete.
By that logic the M20 will make the Nacra F20 obsolete, which Macca seems to not be too concerned about, whereas he should be, being a Nacra employee/representative, rather than being overly concerned with a class in which his employer is not involved.
Am I missing something here ?
Another thing I find very interesting is that he continually denied any connections with any manufacturer not too long ago, yet this interview brings out some other news - that he has been involved with Nacra in one way or another since 2007.
I guess honesty is not part of the code of conduct for professional sailors, if it doesn`t help them sell their sponsors products.

Also interesting to read Martin Fischer`s opinion on the weight of the F18s (He designed the Capricorn and the Wildcat), in context of his choice for the next Olympic catamaran : "I think 18 ft with a beam of 2.5 m would be a good choice. Transport is much easier than with a wider boat and such a boat would be significantly cheaper than a 20-ft boat. I would also like to see the weight come down a bit, but not to extreme levels. I reckon a weight of around 140 kg would be a good compromise between performance and cost." http://catsailingnews.blogspot.com/2010/05/cs-interview-martin-fischer.html
Seems he disagrees with Macca on the weight issue, if he believes 140kg would be a good weight for an 18ft, not a 16ft boat.. but then he is only a designer with more degrees than a bar full of catsailors..

"Am I missing something here ?"

Nope. You're spot on.

Like all good politicians, Macca is the duplicitous king of spin of the Catamaran Sailing Forums. Like all good politicians though it eventually always ends up in tears.

An interesting thing was written by Tiapanfc a fellow Aussie sailor in the birthday wishes thread "Happy birthday Macca. Hope to see a great year ahead for you on the F16!" Not wanting to read too much into this but will Macca contest a few F16 events this year on a Nacra manufactured boat.

As I said before I believe the Nacra 500 is F16 compliant for a solo sailor...

The basic idea is pretty simple really.

Create as much chaos and mayhem as possible, turning potential new class members / F16 sailors away. Slow our growth and hope enough of the mud sticks as to eventually see us buckle at the knees.

Of course we have been playing that game for over 8 years now and we still keep growing.

As I said before I have no idea why they think they can be successful at it.

Wouter

Steve, its pretty simple: The Nacra F20 makes the M20 obsolete, because its cost effective and one design. The M20 owners have always been outside the group when it comes to creating a class. When have you seen more than 3 M20s with the same spec at a regatta? The Nacra F20 had a bigger fleet at its first event and it would have been bigger if the containers were faster. So the F16 group have to decide if they are a bunch of boat fiddlers like the M20 guys (i love that stuff too) or if you want a class that races? (on the water, not the interweb..)

Macca its pretty simple really Nacra + one design = monopoly ergo ripped off when it comes to spare parts and updates.

e.g 11.000 USD for a nacra I20 carbon mast.

the smart money says history will repeat itself yet again.

I agree with Dazz on this, I don't know who at Nacra is the "problem" but when I had an I20 some of us wanted to get an owner's class going, but Nacra wouldn't allow us any input when it came to the rules of the class. Their attitude was, "Here's the boat, here's the new changes to the boat, now, you can buy them from us, or you can -not- race in "our" class..." (I am refering specifically to when they added the self tacking jib kit and the 'new' tramps several years ago) We the owners wanted to vote on what new changes should be allowed, and not allowed, but Nacra would have none of it. You played (and paid) by their SMOD rules, or you didn't race with them.

140 kg is a tad over the B2 class levels......

That class was developed around the same time as the Mozzie..

Well at least they were more open about than they used to be- ess pretending to "poll" and take a vote from all the owners of the "class" before making any changes. Only problem was- every change the factory wanted was always approved and no one seemed to be able to find any of this elusive owners who had gotten polled and had voted "for" the changes! As I mentioned in another post- that is their (and Hobie's) business model- SMOD classes controlled by the manufacturer- either openly or covertly.

Kirt