Why can't Nacra compete in F16

Are they incompetent?

ahhh, more useless threads...

Maybe they don't want to "compete" against some of their other products, like the I17 and F18? There are only so many interested buyers out there.

Glad you feel that way. Go back to the F18 forum and give them the benefit of all your wonderful knowledge.

Well, Tim, If I follow your logic then Nacra does see the F16 as a threat; which I suspect is the case. That would also explain why Nacra sends it's drivers over here to bad mouth us. They can't make a real case for their own products so they are forced to criticize their competitiors. That is a weak position indeed.

Has anyone heard anything about Nacra's financial state? This is a very tough economic time, maybe they are about to fold up shop! You just never know.

Pete,

I think Tony gave you the proper reply here.

Are you looking for more **** fights or helping to end this chaos ?

Bad mouthing nacra or hobie won't do anyone good.

Wouter

Just calling it like I see it. This is not a good faith negotiation. It is a **** fight and invariably the worst offenders are Nacra drivers. Ask yourself why?

Yes, but the upshot of that attitude is that you are actually starting half the **** fights yourself.

So please will you do us a favour and vent your frustration over a beer in a group of friends, but not as new controversial threads that rehash old topics over and over again.

I and several others will be very thankful indeed.

Wouter

Wouter you won't win this fight by being nice. Out of respect for the efforts you've put into the F16 class I'll drop this thread. But that doesn't mean you're right...

NACRA, and/or Hobie, could clearly come up with a competitive F16- especially if they put some of their "rock stars" on them to sail them. They are businesses and they make product decisions based on the bottom line, and apparently have done so successfully despite what some of us (including myself) might think about those decisions. This is why they are still probably in business and have survived rough times before. Both, in the past, have definitely preferred SMOD boats over "open" or development boats- Hobie even passes rules NOT allowing any other "brand" of boat at their sanctioned regattas. Witness the Hobie "near-A" that is essentially a SMOD "A" cat. If either could, they would turn the F18 into a SMOD, with their particular hulls being the class-approved ones (witness Hobie's plans for the Tiger and holding separate Tiger regattas). We are (presently) a small market from their perspective, we are "open" so that means there product will be judged directly in comparison to others in price, quality, etc. and we are a sailor controlled class compared to their manufacturer controlled model. Additionally, in this economy, justifying the development and start-up costs for an entirely new "model" which not be able to utilize many of the company's current components (which clearly keeps costs down in many ways- well known in autos, power boats, RV's, ess any mass produced product). In the case of NACRA at least, it appears their "approach" is simply to try to lure potential F16 buyers to one of their current products- F18, Inter 17 (Formula now?- THERE is an OBVIOUS reason they renamed the "Inter" IMO- American mentality of "more is better"- if an F16 is good then an F17 MUST be better!), the Hobie 16 or FX1, etc. Much more cost effective for them to do that than develop and market a new product.
THIS is why IMO what we, as F16 sailors, need to do is really help our current manufacturers- Support them ALL!! A little "ribbing" between brands is great and "I like my boat better because...." is helpful but bashing/criticizing OUR manufacturers, for any reason, is playing right into the hands of our "competition" for new/current sailors. All this derision about weight, etc. is playing right into their hands too IMO. It projects a vision of a fractionated, derisive class. Heck Hobie 16's weights vary greatly but you don't hear them really bashing their manufacturer. We need to be more like the "A" class- in the "A" class we just love the boats and the concept- we have a ton of different boat builders and every boat has it's merits- As has been pointed out many times, every boat is a compromise- what makes them different is where and how the compromises differ.
That's just how I see it- Your opinion may differ and that's fine!

Kirt

Pete,

Thank you, I truly appreciate that.

Wouter

+ 1 Kirt - great post. This should be in the "opportunities" thread.
As someone from outside F16 but inside formula sailing I reckon you have great opportunities here. If Hobie and/or Nacra produce a boat fitting the F16 parameters and it is competitive then it just gives you more choice. They'll do that if they see a viable market and are able to make a quid. In the meantime stop worrying about it and sail the already good choice of boats you have - they all have various attributes which suit some and not others. Welcome to the wonderful world of formula sailing.

Now to lighten things up this following statement is made purely in jest and I mean no detriment or offence to anyone. So lets go enjoy and grow the sport of sailing (maybe even the monoslug sailors!)

A Class = too expensive
F18 = too heavy
F16 = too precious/argumentative
F14 = too few
F12 = too small

Cheers
Have a good day

Thanks Ace! Just back from a nice sail on my Taipan- Gave one of the monoslug sailors a pin for hitch so he could get his boat out- he was about to use a screwdriver and locking wrench since he didn't have a pin!
That's what sailing should be about- helping each other get out on the water and having fun! I work too much/too hard to have my sailing turn into work!

Kirt

Why? For the same reason they don't make A-cats i.e. bottom line, profit margins, too much effort required, etc.

Warranty of "light" boats is a potential business killer.

My understanding is the european warranty laws are strict. Not such a problem for small, boutique builders because buyers realise they will get over the phone support but not as much replacement support. If Nacra or Hobie tried it they'd probably get bombarded with expensive warranty claims...maybe.

Why not ASK Hobie and NACRA? Or is that too simple a solution.

We sit on this forum bouncing around a whole pile of theories instead of doing the obvious.

And that is why Hobie for example launches the 100kg iCat and why Nacra has done the A2 and A3 A-cats.

I think that if the above quote is true then they would never have launched either boats.

Wouter

Not sure of the point being made here. At 100kg the ICat is a pretty heavy boat if it wants to play in the A Class area. The A2 was marketed by Nacra but not the A3 as I understand it. Only one ever made it to AUS - not best suited to our generally higher wind and rougher water.

Kirt, I agree with most of what you have to say, but differ on this :
"THIS is why IMO what we, as F16 sailors, need to do is really help our current manufacturers- Support them ALL!! A little "ribbing" between brands is great and "I like my boat better because...." is helpful but bashing/criticizing OUR manufacturers, for any reason, is playing right into the hands of our "competition" for new/current sailors. All this derision about weight, etc. is playing right into their hands too IMO. It projects a vision of a fractionated, derisive class."

Firstly, I`m NOT an F16 owner, but an interested observer, just so you can see where I`m coming from. (ie a potential customer, given the right circumstances)
I think that all the heated debate regarding class rules, min. weight etc, are as a direct result of players OUTSIDE of F16 wanting to enter the game, and play it by their own rules.
I also see all the heated discussions regarding weight etc as being a COHESIVE force in the class - I have not seen ONE F16 sailor/owner agreeing with Macca or TA, they have all been very forceful in their defense of the F16 class, it`s rules and it`s method of running the class. Whether they are right or wrong remains to be seen, but they have a right to defend their stance, as they are the ones who have invested time, money and effort into the class, and who have the right to decide on it`s future growth potential (or lack thereof), as they bought into the concept of LIGHTWEIGHT 16ft racing boats. Changing that aspect of the class might detract from the attractiveness of the class and chase potential customers away.(Like me).
What I see is outsiders constantly making trouble, and F16 owners/ class members continually having to defend the class from these attacks.
Of course I agree that bashing any manufacturer in or out of the class does no-one any good. I do have strong reservations about whether the F16 class should WANT Hobie or Nacra to be involved in their class, I know very little about Nacra as an organisation, but I do know that Hobie has done catsailing and themselves no favour by alienating themselves from other sailors through their corporate attitude. I would hate it if that permeated the F16 class, and would see the entry of Hobie into the F16 class as a threat to it`s survival. If Macca`s opinions on these forums are anything to go by as a Nacra company representative, I believe the involvement of Nacra would only be worse.
If I`m mistaken, it would be a good idea if a Nacra company representative ask Macca to stop trying to enforce his belief system regarding what would be ""good" for F16 down our throats, or alternately inform the F16 class that Macca`s opinions do not reflect those of the Nacra company. If they were to do this, threads titled like this one would not be started. Macca has created a hatred of Nacra among F16 supporters which may not be well founded.
I also believe that the class rules will look after all involved - The Viper has fuller more bouyant hulls at the expense of weight. They COULD build the same boat lighter, at substantially increased cost, which is self-correcting as it would not sell as well. So a business decision has been forced by the class rules, one which Hobie and Nacra would also have to make in order to be competitive in the class (not only on the racecourse, but in volume of boats sold in order to be profitable. They must compete in PRICE with Stealth, Blade etc.) So I believe the F16 class rules allow for all schools of thought - lightweight lower volume hulls at min. weight, or fuller hulls at a slight weight penalty, evening out the playing field.
The problem with Formula classes is that some people want them to remain controlled development classes, while others would prefer them to migrate to being almost-one-design, similar to F18. I believe the F16 objectives when started were far more open, allowing similar boats with similar performance to race on a scratch basis. The Viper has at least shown that this is indeed possible, and are probably winning races more due to the highly skilled sailors and the refined rig, than any difference in hull shape, volume or stiffness of platforms contributes. If they traded boats with a mediocre sailor halfway through the regatta of a different make, they would probably still win, and the mediocre sailor would probably retain his position in the fleet. The boats have SIMILAR performance, enough so that weekend sailors needn`t worry about changing boats every season, or whenever the next best thing comes along.

Steve,
I stay away from this forum these days and only just happenned upon your post while filling in time waiting for a visitor to arrive. I'm just sick of the "F16 FREE RIDE WANTA BEES" telling everyone one else how to "suck eggs".
It is refreshing to see that someone with no axe to grind can see what is really going on.
The first good post that I've seen in quite a while- not that I look any more.

Life is short make the most of it.

Regards,
Phill

Steve:

" it would be a good idea if a Nacra company representative ask Macca to stop ".

This may have happened, who knows? In any case this forum has been civil for a few days, maybe it will remain so.

Phil: It was good to hear from you, hopefully you'll come back more often. I'm sure everyone would like to hear more about your home build.

Perhaps you could bring us up to date. On another thread...

Pete,
I took the Razor for a test sail a week or two back.
Does everything as expected- you would think it was on rails upwind, light and flighty off the breese.
I'm very happy with it.

Regards,
Phill

SPOT ON.

Phill-
Looks very nice! Apparently a fairly easy homebuild since it's mainly "flat" panels? Presume that was one of the design objectives, or?
Guess this might be easy to build ala the LCD "A" cat method of foam panels w/ CF on both sides. What's she weigh ;-) ?

Kirt

Well, I guess I'll just agree that we disagree on what sort of view this type of discussion portrays to "outsiders' just jumping on this forum to see what the F16 class is all about. I'm not sure someone just jumping on would know who's an actual class member, a manufacturer, an interested potential buyer, an old member, etc. IMO most "newbies" entering this forum would presume that posters who seem to offer advice/opinions would be members/owners/manufacturers but perhaps I am being naive.

Kirt

Another outsider view :P

Nacra could built a F16, but if they were to look on these forums they could be off put, most of the threads end up turing into fights bettween parties (parties that are not obviusly F16 or non F16 sailor) meaning that it gives the F16 class a look of friction between sailors and possibly a difficult class to deal with. Nacra could possibly go to AHPC and disscuss with them of setting up a new class of 120ish kg boats that they can both easily market and manufacture, and pgp's posts on the F18 forum will have not done the class any favours.

Before you start ripping me apart, if the UK youth catamran was still the Hobie 16 and not the Spitfire (which might fit in the rule actually) then I would seriuosly consider getting a F16 as I would have to get a 90kg crew to sail a F18!

Hopefully no one will rip you apart. But this particular thread needs to go away.

Personally, I'd welcome your comments but in a new thread please.

Also, one of the "old hands" has suggested that a boat type and sail number in a posters signature block would be nice.

Thanks, have a nice weekend.

PLANNING?
My theory on why weight is not as critical on a F16 as on a Tornado,
is my F16 appears to me to be fastest when planning.
I have sailed heavy a Tornado 35lb over minimum and it was a dog.
In medium wind & up planning may be the equalizer?

If that's the Tornado I'm thinking of, it was a dog for quite a few other reasons as well

Not trying to stir the pot up again, but I thought this was the best objective answer to the original question...like they say a picture is worth a thousand words...Couldn't help but think of this thread when I saw a picture Jake posted of the inside of a NACRA 20.
http://www.catsailor.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=217414#Post217414

I just happened to sit at the same table with Macca last night at dinner in Racine. The F16 topic came up and what he said seemed simple enough to me.

He feels that the rule set in F16 needs refinement (I think you all know his argument about a class killer) before Nacra jumps in and invests. We can argue all day about whether a class killer could/would be developed, but that is how he felt they viewed it. Risk versus reward.

I asked about the new 20 and the risk/reward equation and he said they had so many European pre-orders that it was put into production. He gave a couple of people at the dinner table a "tour" of a 20 hull they had on display. Big pricetag but looks to be an awesome boat. Certainly light weight. I could lift the hull with one hand. He said anyone who has test sailed it has bought it.

This is actually a brilliant example why he is so full of it.

Apparently a 20 foot with lifting foils and all carbon Nacra 20 sells like hot cakes and is alright, but an all-carbon F16 (with tighter limits to how it may be implemented) is a class killer according to him because it would be to expensive for most buyers.

Come to think of it. How would the current Nacra 20 owners regard this new all-carbon Nacra 20 ? Might they see it as a class killer ? (as in killing THEIR class)

If nacra can build and sell an A2/A3 A-cat, an All-Carbon Nacra 20 and a carbon masted F17 then they can certainly build a competitive (glass and alu) F16 if they want to. It is really not that hard when a poor conservative homebuilder like me can already get it down to 120 kg. The truth is that they just don't want to compete on a level playing field with other builders (or even amateur builders !).

In my opinion it is simply not the responsibility of a formula class to rewrite the rules to tilt the playing field more towards a particular schizophrenic boat builder. Some people apparently believe otherwise.

Now I don't piss on the boats he sails at every chance I get and I certainly hope that Macca has the same sense of well-manneredness.

Wouter

Ok.. ban Nacra, Hobie and Macca from building F16s.. should settle the issue..

I don't think the M20 is supposed to be an F class is it?

I think it's supposed to be a one-design Texel killer..an open portsmouth rocket ship! If that is the case, it really doesn't matter. Nacra and Hobie have a HISTORY of producing class killers of their OWN classes. This is just another iteration of building another boat that's "updated". Nacra has already given the middle finger to the 20 owners. You can't deny it's a nice boat, and it's fast, but it probably won't sell well here in the US. Not because of people being hesitant to go to a newer 20, but because of price, 30,000??? is that correct?


I know it's different in Europe, but here in the US, F16's are getting more and more questions. There hasn't been a new Nacra 20 sold in the Panhandle of Florida in a couple years, which has a BIG Nacra 20 fleet. And most of the new boats have been F16's. And, most of the Nacra 20 owners are asking about F16's.

I can see where he is coming from, and his opinion is STRONG, and he is entitled to it, just like all of us. Rather he is right or wrong is yet to be seen cause our class is relatively new. Yes, we can use some rule refinements, but that will come with age.


Just my OPINION so don't shoot me!


Mike

mike.. water ballons at sunset!! If Im not there feel free to start without me!!!

And I found it ironic that he who found it so important is sailing the second or third heaviest F18 in Racine. The boat weights are listed on the craw website.

It is what happens when you do not own the boats you sail sometimes.

You would think the factory would try to supply the best equipment - but just goes to show in the end it is the driver and for all the blustering about weight , it really means squat in the results.

Bobocat, I took a look on the CRAW website but couldn't find the weights. Any chance of a link? Just interested in seeing the spread of F18 weights.

http://crawsailing.net/uploads/F18measurements/2010_RCC_NAF18_Competitor_List.pdf

Well then piss off would be my advice..

Nacra actually has a great opportunity to come in and build a min weight F16 and use their brand and marketing power. With a min weight boat they would totally trump the Viper and with their brand name should be able to overwhelm the small builders at the same time. They currently have their own issues and with having to switch to an Asian builder, there has to be some additional restrictions now to building “production quality” boats. Did you ask Macca where they build the new 20. I bet this has a bit to do with end cost too. I personally am not very excited about racing or especially owning a “performance” Daiwoo or Hyundai. I suppose though as only 1 of the Vipers sailed at the Euros was actually owned and not factory provided, if you are given a ride – you cannot complain.

Thanks Gill!

Correct There is no F class for 20 footers. Nacra calling their new 20 footer F20 is just marketing... there is no buy in from other builders to the box rule that just fits their boat. It's also not clear that at 20 feet... a box rule is even needed since physics limits what you can do. Racing the M20, and F20, boat for boat will probably depend on the crew and execution... not the design box.



The M20 was designed to replace the Tornado for Olympic competition.... the idea was that on a WL course the sail configuration put a premium on Sailor Skill and that's what the Olympic competition was about... I was supposed to be a technically challenging boat to race. Since then... the actual buyers have modified and modified the rig to make the boat a distance racing machine (since there is no buoys circuit or a racing class for the M20's or the 20 footers in general). It is not one design by any stretch.



I completely disagree with this conclusion. The nacra 20 owners screwed themselves. The notion that the nacra 20 owners could do it all ... Week long ocean distance races AND a viable buoys racing circuit proved to not be the answer to forming and growing a one design class. No visible leadership apart from the factory running a NA's for 10 plus years will do that. With just barely enough critical mass for both pursuits the top sailors slowly exited the loosely organized owners group and joined the slowly growing F18 class. Notice, you have no doubt what the F18 class priorities are ...

The factory builds boats and organizes one week long event a year. When the numbers of boat sales and racers attending the NA's falls below some threshold... The factory class is all but dead.... Nacra moves on....


Your conclusion doesn't hold up. .... Melges built and promoted the Melges 20 in the last three years... It's a sport boat that is at least 40 to 50K. They already have more boats racing on a published schedule then any 20 foot catamaran in the world. The Viper 640 retooled with a new mast and a national race circuit and it's the sport boat class to be in the USA.

Owners buy into a PROGRAM... That would be boat plus race circuit. That's the take home of looking at the F18 in the USA... The boat is not fun under 10 knots (which is the vast majority of east coast sailing) yet the race program gets racers to buy in and go racing... (who cares if everyone on the water is going slow).



I conclude that the remains of the nacra 20 class and beginnings of the F16 class are finding common ground at the level of recreational club racing. The 20 guys will down size or not when the crew issues get to the level of PIA. The challenge is to make a recreational club racing program as viable as possible... What that means is the big question for F16's (as well as the N20's).

IIMO, In the USA... the Nacra F20 sales will depend on how many owners want a boat to go distance racing and the viability of the distance races themselves. Several events have died (C100) or barely survived (Hogsbreath and it's successors)moreover, other events are looking at leadership succession in the next few years (Tybee and Steeplechase).

IMO, the N20's should see the writing on the wall and organize all of the 20's.. Tornado's, Supercats, Nacra's Marstorms and the new F20 on a distance circuit under a very loose formula rule/ measurement handicap rule. In order to keep everyone in the game for as long as possible, limit the number of new sails per year to be measured in.

IMO, The F16's should think about racing the single handers against the remains of the Nacra 17 fleet.... the competition is as much about managing the boat around the race course as strait line speed. The fantasy that the one up and two up F16's are fairly competing gets more extreme after each event. My hunch... after you look at the racing for single handers and double handers as separate issues the rules debate gets much easier.

Just my OPINION so don't shoot me!

HA!

You are correct that owner's do buy into a program, but(maybe it's the part of country I'm in or something) it seems that mulithull sailors in general don't want to spend as much as the other sailors. It least from what I can see!

You have a point on the singlehanded F17's and F16's, but quite honest, I believe we have tried that in the past. I'm thinking what we might want to do is some type of a race somewhere that's singlehanders only. Kind of what they do in Europe with the "One Up Cup". That would also include A-cats also. I know, you guys probably wouldn't come, cause you guys like to play in your own sandbox sometimes, but at least we would invite you! . Notice, I'm smiling, being funny, not serious!

I won't shoot you! ....





Mike

Whoa!!!! This thread just took a port tack. Start a new one if you must.

That's what we are good at!

I'm done anyway....

Ready for the Friday afternooner.

Nacra and Hobie probably can compete in the F16 Class; however, they would disenfranchise their existing SMOD classes that are "closely" similar, FX-1 & F17. It is only recently that the F16 class has gained any real momentum and it would have been schizophrenic if they jumped in before now. Frankly, I hear very little hype about the FX-1 & F17 anymore and expect that it is an indication of some F16 surprises in the near future.

Whatever the case, it seems as though formula beachcat racing has a strong appeal for the owner and it is here to stay. Ben Franklin promoted "Join, or Die". It may be applicable.

I like that...ole Ben Franklin....

Kris

Take a look at the US scene.... the FX-1 never took off as a racing class... The Hobie 17 sailors took a look and said... no thanks.... A racing core never materialized....

The Nacra F17 basically died a year ago... They have one boat at NA's this year... just to the left of Michigan were they started! Hell... Two or three years ago... they were running a gold cup championship series with 17 racers. Bob Curry was spearheading the class.

In the USA... there are no fleets to support or kill.

The EU scene is different... The F104 class in France and it's relationship to F16's two up is one of Macca's points. ...

The one up scene looks (from here) to be mostly a local club scene. That's a good question for the EU guys... What is the level of participation for one up spin sailors in the EU. I wonder how much of a market there is for a single handed spin cat racing program.

Bobcat, it was a borrowed boat from a CRAW member. His sails and some modifications to the rigging.

For every club sailor, how many of those travel to events other than their own puddle, without a proper survey I guess I could use the F16 park at Datchet with 11 boats, only 1 has travelled to an outside event this year and i would guess that is about the norm.

In my view this is exactly where the manufacturers get it wrong, which market should they sell to, the clubman who often doesn't race or the clubman who races regulalry. At 11 : 1 it is a marketing no brainer but unless they can get the publicity from winning races then the clubman won't buy the product as they need to aspire to own the latest all singing and dancing toy.

As to EU preference to one or two crew, probably a very high number are sailed solo with an occasional crew for comps, sort of the other way around to the States.

There were lots of rumors at Racine that NACRA will be building an F16. I didn't hear it from anyone that had genuine, first hand knowledge though, so chances are its the deep fried mouse story where it always happened to somebody else.

I hope they do, another boat on the market can't hurt anything in my opinion, hopefully its an improvement over what is currently available and it keeps pushing the ball forward.

I don't know why somebody didn't ask Jack (?) from Nacra about this. He was there all week.

That'd be waaaaayyy too simple....

a little bird told me that the same design team who did the Nacra F20C is working on a F16...the word is that it will be as spectacular as the F20C

Perhaps my musings that a mixed crew F16 boat being the only way we get multihulls back into the Olympics and the agreement by some of the Sailing press, is perhaps sharpening the minds of the marketing boys and girls at the major manufacturers.

Great!

That just means it will NOT be F16 compliant, but trying to create their own class that's called F something....


Good marketing!

Mike

I know...

But the truth hurts and I'm not stirring up poop.

I'll believe it when I see one!

Mike

Pete how do you constantly mis-interpret everything we all seem to say, where I come from its called not doing your homework properly and jumping to the wrong conclusions.

Pete,

You do not have much room to gripe on anyone else’s posts relative to being a friendly representative of the class.

With the 104 seeming to die on the vine, I would think Nacra would be interested in the potential market share the F16 class seems to be tapping. They do have a very long history of F’n up classes though you have to admit (Pun intended)

There is room to do some cool things within the framework of the rules, so it will be interesting how they choose to use that potential. Maybe we will see that 30K class killer Macca keeps droning about. Maybe they will pull a Viper move and build something away from the box edges and then lobby the class to change the rules.

Some added marketing power can be a very good thing for the class. Let’s hope the resulting product is a representative of that and not an ego swing to create yet another new thing.

I know. But I thought we had turned the corner on that. Things have been amiable for awhile now. I began this thread in direct retaliation for unwarranted attacks on the F16 Class. Those attacks have stopped, so should this thread.