Catsailor.com

F16 Viper Club version announced for Junior Sailors !

Posted By: Wouter

F16 Viper Club version announced for Junior Sailors ! - 06/29/10 12:37 PM

MEDIA RELEASE Fun in the Sun Services

For Immediate Release North American Distributors for

AHPC Australian High Performance Catamarans

JUNE 25, 2011 Clearwater, FL USA 727-734-0799

www.ViperClubSailing.com





NEW HIGH PERFORMANCE CATAMARAN FOR YOUTH SAILING

By Australian High Performance Catamarans



Fun in the Sun Services (FITSS), North American Distributor for Australian High Performance Catamarans (AHPC) introduces the F16 VIPER Club to their line of F18 and F16 catamarans.



With FITSS and AHPC providing boats again for the 2011 U.S. Multihull Championships and Youth Championships, AHPC has developed a boat which fits perfectly for junior and lightweight

sailors called the VIPER Club. The VIPER Club will have significantly less sail area than the reigning F16 Global Champion VIPER.



FITSS has developed the VIPER Club program, a special package for Clubs and Schools to afford this exciting new boat, and has brought in catamaran champion John Casey to head the program.

The beauty and uniqueness of this design has many facets.



· With its smaller sail design, lightweight teams can have great control.

· The Viper Club allows junior sailors to enter into high performance spinnaker sailing on a fast, stable catamaran platform.

· The F16 has great resale value as it is one of the fastest growing catamaran fleets in the world.

· 2 VIPER Clubs can be stacked fully assembled with mast up only taking up 25 feet of area.

· The VIPER Club is a versatile solution for multiple sailing programs because the boat can be configured as either a VIPER, for advanced crews, or a VIPER Club for lightweight crews or

juniors by a simple sail change.

· The VIPER Club can be sailed single-handed for heavier sailors, double handed for women or mixed teams, and even triple handed for lightweight junior sailors.

· When the Catamaran re-enters the Olympic Classes, the VIPER Club will be the perfect training platform to prepare junior teams for future Olympic Campaigns or to compete in the U.S. Multihull Championships and the ISAF Youth World Multihull Championships.

· Lightweight for easy maneuverability on land, durable, fast and double trapeze excitement!

· Boats are delivered with a 2 day coaching seminar and supported by a nation wide dealer network.



FITSS will debut the boat in the Annapolis area at the West River Sailing Club Junior Regatta, followed by the Rock Hall Yacht Club Junior Olympics. The boat will be available for demos when conditions allow. The youth are encouraged to learn about the boat and campaign to attend the U.S. Sailing Youth Multihull Championships next June in Long Beach, CA.



The web site www.ViperClubSailing.com has just been launched to help bring this news to the masses.



FITSS has put together a subsidized program to help clubs get this exciting new catamaran into clubs and into the hands of youth sailors around the country. For more information, contact Jill Nickerson at Funthesunweb@gmail.com or call at 727-734-0799.


(posted for Jill)
_________________________
www.sailcrac.com
Posted By: Wouter

F16 Viper Club version announced for Junior Sailors ! - 06/29/10 12:38 PM

I think this is one of the best things to hit the market in a long time.

I have always said that the Nacra 500 was pretty much the best (teenage) youth boat there is; I think it is better then the SL16 for example. Sadly Nacra never pushed the 500 to its full potential.

However, this Viper club may well be the perfect answer to a deadlocked situation.

It has the excellent superwing (lightweight alu) mast (shared by most F16's) that allows for a surprisingly wide range of tuning thus effectively making the rig suitable to a wide range of crew weights. This mast is also of the new mast variant (not tear drop shaped !) that all modern boats like the A's and F18's are using now. The youth will therefore learn to sail with this kind of mast from the very beginning !

The new club sail area is basically identical to the Nacra 500 (also just right), but the Viper Club is lighter (the one compliant about the nacra 500) and has a modern hullshape with daggers. As such the club version remains fully F16 compliant allowing the youths to both participate in those events or to simply upgrade their boats in time to full (adult) F16 specs by getting a new mainsail and spinnaker (jibs are identical to both versions). I suspect several crews will sell on their old club suit of sails to a new young team when upgrading. In short, the "F16 Viper Club" is the true racing boat for youths with an undeniable growth path towards adult (full spec) performance sailing that is on a par with the best of performance cats out there (such as the F18 and A's)


Smart move, guys and girls !

No doubt about it.


Of course, supplying the boats for the US youth championships in addition to also supplying them to the US Alter Cup (adult) championships is another brilliant move !

Wouter
Posted By: Buccaneer

Re: F16 Viper Club version announced for Junior Sailors ! - 07/05/10 09:22 AM

Club boat? grin

So about how much for a set of Viper dagger boards?? whistle

I agree with you on the 5.0 Wouter but the Viper is NOT going to make a good "club boat". Expensive high aspect dagger boards like those on the viper are not going to work in "club" or rental environment with teenagers. A Viper for training lighter and less experienced sailors would be a better marketing term then "club" boat.

The 5.0 is about the same weight/size as the Viper (but minus the boards and bullet proof) so it's a far better club boat. However the 5.0 is not nearly as maneuverable so there is a trade off. wink

Posted By: Smiths_Cat

Re: F16 Viper Club version announced for Junior Sailors ! - 07/05/10 09:56 AM

I cannot follow this logic. Every kind of "club" dinghy has a daggerboard, even an Optimist. Hence if a kid can handle the daggerboard or a Laser, Pico OpenBic, Optimist, 420, 470, 29, Topper Taz, Topaz or wahtever, he or she can do this on a cat as well.
Maybe you can mark "1 foot" with a permanent pen on the board and it is kid proof.

Cheers,

Klaus
Posted By: Timbo

Re: F16 Viper Club version announced for Junior Sailors ! - 07/05/10 02:06 PM

As a former Opti instuctor, I agree, any kid with about 10 minutes on an Opti understands the concept, pull the board up before you hit bottom. However, an Opti or Laser only goes about 3-5knts when coming into shore and there is only one board to pull up. Those Opti/Laser boards/rudders are quite short and much stronger than our high aspect style carbon/foam racing cat boards. Oh, and like Elvis Costello says, "accidents will happen" more often when you have kids/newbies on board.

Perhaps AHPC can come up with shorter boards for the Club, made of solid fiberglass that will withstand a full speed beaching? And also beef up the dagger slots at the back?
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: F16 Viper Club version announced for Junior Sailors ! - 07/05/10 03:19 PM

Viper boards are plenty tough. They aren't that resilient to chipping, (like any are...), but I've slammed into a sand bar double trap reaching and not broken anything. I've also seen a Viper pile into a sandbar hard enough the sterns were lifted .

Originally Posted by Timbo
made of solid fiberglass that will withstand a full speed beaching?


I'd rather buy a new expensive board, then tear the trunk out of the hull.
Posted By: Arsailor

Re: F16 Viper Club version announced for Junior Sailors ! - 07/05/10 03:36 PM

Perhaps if they just did some shorter board with the rope uphaul system - ala my Taipan- I think AHPC knows how to do that ;-) then all it takes is a simple pull on the line and both boards come up- easy enough even a child could do it!

Kirt
Posted By: pepin

Re: F16 Viper Club version announced for Junior Sailors ! - 07/05/10 03:38 PM

The Viper already has the pull up rope system.
Posted By: pgp

Re: F16 Viper Club version announced for Junior Sailors ! - 07/05/10 03:42 PM

I'm still unconvinced that the high aspect boards offer better performance that my "stubby".
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: F16 Viper Club version announced for Junior Sailors ! - 07/05/10 03:57 PM

I think you guys are using the wrong model for junior Catamaran sailing.

USA Club's are not going to get a fleet of cat's to replace or add to their 420's. It hasn't happened in 30 years...

IMO, I think the idea to sell is that your club's top sailors need a new challenge, these kids will be older and experienced racers. Clubs are now buying international 420's.... We want them to get a pair of Viper Clubs to give the top kids a taste of apparent wind sailing and coaching.

The idea we are selling is that your sailing experience will be much more successful if you understand apparent wind sailing and tactics that you get on a catamaran. (not to mention it's a lot of fun).

We need to make the case that learning to sail and race a catamaran will make you a better sailor.... no matter what boat you will be racing that particular day.

The buzz word of the day is CROSS TRAINING!
Posted By: Tornado_ALIVE

Re: F16 Viper Club version announced for Junior Sailors ! - 07/06/10 07:35 AM

Originally Posted by pgp
I'm still unconvinced that the high aspect boards offer better performance that my "stubby".


I still believe any advantage high aspect boards have is lost raising an lowering. I would prefer Taipan style boards where you leave down upwind and downwind (under kite), particularly sailing 1 up. The quicker you can wind the boat up after or before rounding marks the better.
Posted By: Steve_Kwiksilver

Re: F16 Viper Club version announced for Junior Sailors ! - 07/07/10 01:06 PM

Originally Posted by Tornado_ALIVE

I still believe any advantage high aspect boards have is lost raising an lowering. I would prefer Taipan style boards where you leave down upwind and downwind (under kite), particularly sailing 1 up. The quicker you can wind the boat up after or before rounding marks the better.


You mean like we do with the Mozzie ? smirk
Would be the perfect junior boat, but has no manufacturer pushing it. I guess being a 1967 design is what it has against it. One thing the "latest, greatest" protagonists sometimes forget is that a good design will always be one - look at the Tornado, the benchmark that everyone tries to outdo, and don`t seem to succeed too often.
Posted By: Wouter

Re: F16 Viper Club version announced for Junior Sailors ! - 07/07/10 01:23 PM


Quote

You mean like we do with the Mozzie ?



No, he means like we do with the Taipan ! grin

He is right though, I never raised my boards and always go straight to hoisting the spi after rounding the off set mark. This does save a few valuable seconds especially when singlehanding in the rough. Certainly Don't want to go to lee to pull the board then !

Wouter
Posted By: Tornado_ALIVE

Re: F16 Viper Club version announced for Junior Sailors ! - 07/07/10 01:40 PM

Originally Posted by Wouter

Quote

You mean like we do with the Mozzie ?



No, he means like we do with the Taipan ! grin


No, I mean like a Tornado :-P


If I was to build a single hand (or perhaps a double hand) spinnaker boat, I would have 4.9 style boards.
Posted By: Timbo

Re: F16 Viper Club version announced for Junior Sailors ! - 07/07/10 01:51 PM

I race Uni most of the time and I LOVE my deep boards. In medium wind I leave them down when going downwind, so no loss of time there at the A mark spin. set. When it's really blowing I'll pull them both half way up, but I've got the up line on them so I don't go to the leeward side to do it, just a quick pull on the line and up it comes. The only drawback is at the C mark or gate, I've got one more thing to do, put them both back down for the next upwind leg, so that does add a couple seconds, but I've never lost a race by -a couple seconds- so I don't think it really has an effect on my overall standings. ;^)

I do think the deeper boards will help you go better upwind (create more lift, point higher or sideslip less) and allow you to fly a hull earlier in medium wind, which also reduces drag, so that's a help.
Posted By: maritimesailor

Re: F16 Viper Club version announced for Junior Sailors ! - 07/07/10 04:14 PM

I agree and disagree with Mark. As a LONG time Opti coach at the National level in the US, a head instructor of three different sailing schools. The target audience is the kid who is either aging out of an Opti (15) or sizing out (just too tall / big) before they are 15. The sizing out kids tend to go to Laser 4.7 or 420, the age out kids (most of them) tend to be smaller and aim at club 420s. What you want is to provide them another avenue then club 420s (i.e BORING).

The problem is the club 420 is what high schools and colleges use in the states, hence, nice clean development path, motivation to sail them even though they are pigs (they don't even use trap and kites in either scenario). yes some are buying international 420s (much better boat), but I doubt that will get much of a hold since a lot of the "non laser youth" sailors are part of the high school scene (hence don't by boats). IFF you can get kids trying out Club vipers at the national Opti regattas, and target the kids/ parents that are considering buying their own 420 (10k) that the Viper is MORE FUN, you might get some to bite. The key from the kids perspective is MORE FUN (they hate 420s, trust me), and from the parent's perspective a better buy (longer lasting, good resale value), you might have something on your hands.

Of course, having to explain to them that they will need to drive to Florida to race them might kill the deal, so building up local fleets will be key as well. Nice club incentives, good deals, upgrade kits at a good price (to move from Club to full Viper) would help. For clubs, target the clubs that already have local cat fleets, nice beaches, etc.

My 2 cents. I think their is a huge demand for a fun boat for kids 15+ to sail, as must drop out of sailing due to 420s being pigs and lasers not being for everyone. Heck, I know of 10+ kids of the top of my head that don't have anywhere to go besides laser radial and will never be big enough for full rig, hence potential cat skippers....
Posted By: Timbo

Re: F16 Viper Club version announced for Junior Sailors ! - 07/07/10 07:06 PM

One other 'selling point' on the Vipers, the kid's parrents can get on board and race with the kid too!

Then cue the Viper video with Matt and Zack Lynch.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: F16 Viper Club version announced for Junior Sailors ! - 07/08/10 03:59 AM

Quote

One other 'selling point' on the Vipers, the kid's parrents can get on board and race with the kid too!

Then cue the Viper video with Matt and Zack Lynch.

This is dad's dream. Thousand and thousands of Hobie 16 dad's have raced with their kids.

Think about this.... This father son scene is NOT a selling point for a junior.... That would make the viper just another boat where dad needs crew.... it probably seems about the same as going out on the family cruiser where you get to hank on the jib and all of the other fore deck work.

When you were a kid... did you want your parents with you on the bike ride to where ever you thought would be cool?

We have 30 years of parents sailing with their kids on Hobie 16's... must be 100,000 boats sold..... Yet, How many second generation racers do you know? I don't think that dad driving with kid on the front end of the boat is a junior sailing program. I have never seen any data on this but I think it's remarkable how few "hobie kids" caught the sailing bug.

The rest of the sailing world has their kids off sailing their own little boats.... The conversion to life long sailors might not be great but I argue it's probably better then what us catamaran sailors have achieved. .. Basically, its the same thing as your own bike and when you were up for it.. your own trip to where ever. It's your chance to take on the sea and nature by your self.

Kids need their own boats to own the experience and responsibility....

I would not confuse the issue. The Viper club is a boat for young sailors.

The platform has a life beyond junior sailing. Eg... Laser and Laser Radial. (Make dad ask to borrow the thing).

Posted By: mitchellsailor

Re: F16 Viper Club version announced for Junior Sailors ! - 07/08/10 06:33 AM

I agree the prospect of saling full time with my parents does not appeal and has not appealed to me my whole sailing career. (started age 8 now 17) I learnt to sail in slow single man boat, went to a dinghy with crew my own age which was very fun and now I'm racing against him or with the option of sailing with him if I want.
I think junior sailors need the options because not everyone can find someone with similar interests and commitment to sailing.
Posted By: Timbo

Re: F16 Viper Club version announced for Junior Sailors ! - 07/08/10 01:40 PM

The "problem" as I, a father of 4, see it is, there are not too many Dad's who can write a check for a $16,000 toy for only Junior to sail. An Opti? Yeah. But a boat that will require Dad to help step the mast, load and off load it from the trailor, etc. and by the way, who's going to drive the car? Not so much.

The Opti/420 route has been popular for years at YC's all over the world...why? Because Dad (actually Mom) can Drop Junior Off at the club in the morning and go about their business, return later to collect Junior, go home for dinner. The Clubs can stack up the boats and the kids can rig and un-rig them.

No effort involved and very little money, compared to a racing cat.

Now, try selling a $16,000 cat to a Club, here's what the old foggies on the Board of Directors are going to ask:

1. How many Optis and 420's could we buy for that same $16,000??

2. Where are we going to PUT those things? They take up too much room and dropping the mast is a pain!

3. Who are our kids going to race against? What other Clubs have kiddie cats??

Cats require at least 2x the work of Lasers, 420's and Opti's to rig and store, never mind they cost 4x as much, and then again, who are they going to race against, and what is the "follow on" program, without any upward mobility, (No Olympic class to aspire to) it's a tough sell.

BTW, I bought my kids an Opti, and then a JY 15. It was much easier for me to buy the JY15 because after the kids were done with it, I could race it too.

My kids now have a Hobie 14 in my backyard, it never leaves the beach unless it's blowing 20+, and then it's because I'm sailling it, not them.

Yesterday I took my 14 yr. old daughter out on my Blade for a couple hours, but that was only because her 14yr. old girlfriend wanted to go out, and they both trapped, but when I offered to set up the 14 for them, no luck.

The girlfriend's dad has 2 Sunfish, she's never been out on them. Her dad races against her 16yr. old brother but only here on our lake, never been to a real regatta. I've had him out on my Blade and tried to talk him into buying a cat, but he won't write a $16,000 check when he's got two $500 Sunfish to play with...

"That's a lot of money..."

BTW, they live in a $750,000 house on the lake and he drives a BMW, his wife's got a Lexus. If he won't write the check, who are you going to sell a $16,000 Kiddie Cat to??


BTW, Mark, you had better notify Brett Goodall that he doesn't like racing with his Dad, they are not doing too well in the F18 worlds after all...


Psych!

Posted By: Timbo

Re: F16 Viper Club version announced for Junior Sailors ! - 07/08/10 01:47 PM

Hey Pete, can you find that Tampa Bay news program video of Matt and Zach Lynch sailing their Viper together? I've looked all over but can't find it.

That's how you sell a $16,000 "toy".
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: F16 Viper Club version announced for Junior Sailors ! - 07/08/10 01:57 PM

What you make doesn't necessarily determine what you buy for toys, it just establishes how dedicated you are to wanting the toy. I'm dirt butt poor most of the time, but do what I can keep a boat under me.

Speaking of which, I gotta get back to my corner......
Posted By: Timbo

Re: F16 Viper Club version announced for Junior Sailors ! - 07/08/10 02:36 PM

Karl, how many kids do you have?

Would you buy one of your kids a $16,000 sailboat?

Did your dad buy you a $16,000...anything?

That is my point.
Posted By: pgp

Re: F16 Viper Club version announced for Junior Sailors ! - 07/08/10 02:38 PM

Here you go.

http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/sports/fish_n_chip/father-son-racing-team-makes-waves-06042010
Posted By: Timbo

Re: F16 Viper Club version announced for Junior Sailors ! - 07/08/10 02:45 PM

Thanks Pete.

My aim in this discussion is stricktly from a Marketing viewpoint.

How are you (Mr. Viper "Junior" Dealer) going to "Sell" the boat, to the Clubs and parents?

Give me your best "Pitch" Mark, or anyone else. Because If I can't sail the boat, at $16,000, nobody in my family's getting one!

And that would hold true even if there were 1,000 yacht clubs that already had fleets of them up and running, of which there are....zero.

Dad's got to write that check, you had better have a product Dad can sail too!

That's the sell; Dad and the Kids, together, having good times!

Put a "No Dad's allowed" sticker on it and good luck selling ANY of them!
Posted By: Stewart

Re: F16 Viper Club version announced for Junior Sailors ! - 07/08/10 02:54 PM

how much do the horses cost?
Posted By: Wouter

Re: F16 Viper Club version announced for Junior Sailors ! - 07/08/10 05:28 PM


Mind you, the rumour has it the club is noticeably below 16.000.

I guess it is just as with motor cross, those things are't cheap as well and dear child wants something proper where Dad wants something affordable. Somewhere those two limits have to meet and that means you can't fully satisfy both.

Wouter
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: F16 Viper Club version announced for Junior Sailors ! - 07/08/10 05:57 PM

Originally Posted by Stewart
how much do the horses cost?


In Timbo's case nothing more needs to be said. Tim, you gave me a chuckle with your "If I can't use it we ain't getting it" speech.

Here's the pitch the Tim: Get a Viper Club because you'll never have to scoop the poop!
Posted By: Timbo

Re: F16 Viper Club version announced for Junior Sailors ! - 07/08/10 06:04 PM

I've got the Blade equivelant, so I'm good. The horses over the past 15 years have probably cost me as much as a brand new Gunboat 62 for sure, but then I also rode them, my wife rides them, my two other kids rode once in a while.

At one time all 6 of us rode, but now, not so much. I hate to go near them, as all I see is $$$$ flying out of my wallet every time I go to our barn, which BTW, cost me $42,000 to have built...then there is the $17,000 trailer being pulled by the $35,000 truck...

Don't make me add it all up, I'll kill myself.

So, how many of you DAD's out there are going to buy your kid a $10,000 to $16,000... or what ever, "Toy", if YOU can't also play with it??
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: F16 Viper Club version announced for Junior Sailors ! - 07/08/10 06:26 PM

Originally Posted by Timbo
Thanks Pete.

My aim in this discussion is stricktly from a Marketing viewpoint.

How are you (Mr. Viper "Junior" Dealer) going to "Sell" the boat, to the Clubs and parents?

Give me your best "Pitch" Mark, or anyone else. Because If I can't sail the boat, at $16,000, nobody in my family's getting one!

And that would hold true even if there were 1,000 yacht clubs that already had fleets of them up and running, of which there are....zero.

Dad's got to write that check, you had better have a product Dad can sail too!

That's the sell; Dad and the Kids, together, having good times!

Put a "No Dad's allowed" sticker on it and good luck selling ANY of them!


Timbo, all this blathering! You must not have looked at the website!
VIPER Club
Why should I waste a pitch on you when you are definitely not in the market! If I had a product called Horsefly Be-Gone! you'd listen right? Haha. I do like your points though.

How can you not sail the boat? Put the Club sails or the regular sails on and the boat still performs.

I was out in about 7 knots with a junior and I was impressed. We were able to beat the other F16s at the club here at West River with the Club sails and we weighed 300 lbs. The SA is taken out of the square top and the sail is a bit flatter. The kite is flatter and 9% smaller, and we used it on a reach very effectively.

You could always just put the regular set of sails on and there's your boat, Tim, singlehanded or double. And if you singlehand in a breeze with the Club mainsail.......fast for sure! It could actually close the gap between the single/double in the breeze. This is exactly what is so attractive about the F16; it is so versatile. singlehand/double/junior/mixed/female/males....every combo possible.

So to answer your question if you can sail it or not..

Remember, it only weighs 50 lbs more than a club 420, and the 420 is still an eight thousand dollars. $$/mph the VIPER Club blows it away.

Though we are competing against the 420, I don't look at it as direct competition, but more of a cross training, as mentioned earlier. Recruiting colleges look for sailors who have sailed a variety of boats with success. Contrary to popular outlook, cats are very technical boats to sail and demand fast thinking and a lot of tactics, as we all know. I don't really have to go there. The main focus is keeping kids interested in sailing. For me, if there were no cats I would have quit a long time ago, and I still like to sail leaners too. Of course, many yacht clubbers see cats as taking away a piece of their pie, but I think there could be many more slices available in the whole pie.

Daggerboards are not an issue. You can't have a true performance cat without them IMO.

To say there are absolutely 'zero' VIPER Clubs around, what is that? At one point there were zero Optis, Zero Lasers and zero Hobie 16s. Why try to kill something before it starts. I just visited my 1st club. Thanks for that one buddy.

Check the FAQ page out on the site to help. Any suggestions are helpful. Well, maybe not 'any'
Posted By: pgp

Re: F16 Viper Club version announced for Junior Sailors ! - 07/08/10 06:33 PM

What's your next stop? Do you have a pair lined up for Racine yet?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: F16 Viper Club version announced for Junior Sailors ! - 07/08/10 06:37 PM

Originally Posted by pgp
What's your next stop? Do you have a pair lined up for Racine yet?


How about this Pete
VIPER Club Great Lakes Championship!

I posted this on the Open Forum. If I was a junior I'd be all over this! If anyone knows a kid or pair of kids that would like to do this, drop a line.
Posted By: pgp

Re: F16 Viper Club version announced for Junior Sailors ! - 07/08/10 06:44 PM

I'll forward to the F16 class if you like.
Posted By: Gilo

Re: F16 Viper Club version announced for Junior Sailors ! - 07/08/10 07:41 PM

What is the price difference with a standard Viper?
Posted By: Timbo

Re: F16 Viper Club version announced for Junior Sailors ! - 07/08/10 08:34 PM

I think you missunderstand my points here, I am 200% behind the concept of the Viper Club Junior concept. It was Mark Schnieder who said it should NOT be sold as a family boat but only as a Junior boat. (go back and read his posts) That's when I said, What dad is going to lay out that much money for a -Kid only- toy? I also mentioned the Laser Radial 4.7, etc, same concept, I think it's a great idea.

Maybe we can start an F16 junior class, and I can have my kids race my Blade (with the same Junior sails) then hit the beach, swap sails, and I go out and race. I'm all for "Versatility" and any cost savings, believe me! Mark was saying a kid needs his own boat and doesn't want his dad along. My point is, what dad can pay for that? I say, Use it for BOTH, the dad and the kid, the kid can race with his friends, and dad can race it too. I'm not trying to kill it, I think it's a great idea. But before Dad writes that big check, Dad needs to know he can play with it, thus my mention of Zach and Matt Lynch.

I would never have bought -any- of the horses if Mom and Dad couldn't ride them too...
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: F16 Viper Club version announced for Junior Sailors ! - 07/08/10 09:09 PM

Originally Posted by Timbo
Robbie, I think you missunderstand my points here, I am 200% behind the concept of the Viper Club Junior concept. It was Mark Schnieder who said it should NOT be sold as a family boat but only as a Junior boat. (go back and read his posts) That's when I said, What dad is going to lay out that much money for a -Kid only- toy? I also mentioned the Laser Radial 4.7, etc, same concept, I think it's a great idea.

Maybe we can start an F16 junior class, and I can have my kids race my Blade (with the same Junior sails) then hit the beach, swap sails, and I go out and race. I'm all for "Versatility" and any cost savings, believe me! Mark was saying a kid needs his own boat and doesn't want his dad along. My point is, what dad can pay for that? I say, Use it for BOTH, the dad and the kid, the kid can race with his friends, and dad can race it too. I'm not trying to kill it, I think it's a great idea. But before Dad writes that big check, Dad needs to know he can play with it, thus my mention of Zach and Matt Lynch.

I would never have bought -any- of the horses if Mom and Dad couldn't ride them too...


I'm JC, not Robbie. Robbie's too cool to post on websites, and he's busy doing what I want to be doing right now.

That's what I hate about these forums, that "go back and read his posts" stuff. I read his posts and you asked anyone to give the pitch, so I responded. I don't wanna talk in circles.

I'm not taking it the wrong way at all. I'm just trying to answer the question. You can dish it out real good Timbo, and I have fun with it too sometimes.

I see where Mark is coming from, and I think you are both right in a way. Club kids generally sail club boats without mom and dad, and that's what the norm is. However, since this is a larger price-tag it must suit many different options. You and I are coming at it from the same angle. Anyway, I think the efforts should be geared towards getting more kids involved instead of haggling over small selling points.

What a great idea! An F16 junior class. Kids race, swap sails and parents can race. I bet you still didn't look at the website. When do you decide to put the landing gear down, Timbo, after everybody in the **** has been talking about it for fifteen minutes?
Posted By: Buccaneer

Re: F16 Viper Club version announced for Junior Sailors ! - 07/09/10 01:02 AM

The imagination is a powerful thing. wink

Loss in functionality is the trade off but will they help you win races? NO. Are they in the way? YES. Will it be expensive to replace or repair those "deep" boards? YES. Would center or low profile boards like on Taipan be lees likely to get whacked in club or rental use? YES. Do we need the "deep" boards to enjoy "apparent wind sailing"? NO. Do the "deep" boards create more problems then they solve? YES. Can we make them shorter? NO. Not without a redesign of the "trunks". Will they redesign the "trunks"? NO. Would not add to bottom line which is perhaps why they went with the F18 beams and want the F16 min. weight increased. Did I miss anything?... grin


Originally Posted by Timbo
I race Uni most of the time and I LOVE my deep boards. In medium wind I leave them down when going downwind, so no loss of time there at the A mark spin. set. When it's really blowing I'll pull them both half way up, but I've got the up line on them so I don't go to the leeward side to do it, just a quick pull on the line and up it comes. The only drawback is at the C mark or gate, I've got one more thing to do, put them both back down for the next upwind leg, so that does add a couple seconds, but I've never lost a race by -a couple seconds- so I don't think it really has an effect on my overall standings. ;^)

I do think the deeper boards will help you go better upwind (create more lift, point higher or sideslip less) and allow you to fly a hull earlier in medium wind, which also reduces drag, so that's a help.
Posted By: pepin

Re: F16 Viper Club version announced for Junior Sailors ! - 07/09/10 01:25 AM

I have two set of boards on my Stealth. Long and short. In fact the original short ones are the same as the rudders, all sourced from 49er rudders.

I keep them in my trailer box just in case, if I break a rudder or a daggerboard I have two spares...

The big difference between the two is that the boat is way quicker to lift a hull with the long ones. I've used the short ones only twice: Once when it was honking a good 25 knots with gusts to match and a second time combined with a smaller main when I put my two sons (14 and 9) on the cat by themselves.

I'd say there is value in short boards smile
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: F16 Viper Club version announced for Junior Sailors ! - 07/09/10 02:19 AM

Originally Posted by DUH
If anyone knows a kid or pair of kids that would like to do this, drop a line.


I wrote a paragraph of recommendation on behalf of the two kids I'd like to see awarded the ride. It would've been a whole letter, but I'm just not that creative.

Sweet that there'll be two more F16's at Racine! Way to go JC.
Posted By: Timbo

Re: F16 Viper Club version announced for Junior Sailors ! - 07/09/10 04:47 AM

Sorry for the confusion JC, I was traveling up to ATL when I responded to the posts, from an airport computer connection, didn't have time to go to the web site, and right now I am still in ATL. It is 12:30am, I just got out of a 6 hour simulator session, now I'll be snoozing in a chair at the airport until the first flight out, 06:55am, back to MCO. We call it "living the dream."

I just know from all the years I've spent trying to "sell" sailing to other families (and cats in particular the past 10 years) the parents need to be "on board" if they are going to write a big check like that, vs. a few grand for a "Racing Opti".

When the Wave first came out, I had high hopes it would replace the Opti, as most of the complaints I heard from kids in Opti's were: 1. "It's too slow!" or 2. "It's too small."

Well, the Wave fixed both those problems at once. The problem for the Wave was, and still is, there is no follow on cat class for the kids to move up into, at most Yacht Club settings. The Yacht Clubs go with what they know, what is simple to store, what is cheap, thus they use Opti's, Lasers, 420's etc.

The Hobie 16 is still very popular today, because there are so many used ones out there, cheap, anyone can get into cats via the H16 if they can find a back yard beater cheap, and fix it up.

That's the only way I was able to get into cats (it was a $750 Hobie 18 in my case).

With the H16, the parents can race with or against their kids. But any of the newer cats? Not too many used ones available, and none of them are what I would call cheap, so if you want to sell a brand new, expensive (relative to a used 420) cat, you had better have an 'angle' on Dad and/or Mom being able to sail it too. They are the ones who write the check.

Now, they may only sail it once in a while, but it makes it easier to part with that much money if Dad knows he can get out some time too.

It's going to be a tough sell in this envrionment, no doubt, but I think if you get to the clubs where the 15y. old kids are, who have been sailing slow bathtubs, they will be -hooked- when you get them out on the wire in some wind. And if you can get Dad out too, he just might write that check.

Tomorrow, if/when I finally get home, I'll check out your website.

Be good!

Posted By: Wouter

Re: F16 Viper Club version announced for Junior Sailors ! - 07/09/10 08:27 AM

Quote

Sweet that there'll be two more F16's at Racine! Way to go JC.


There is no argueing with that !

Right on Red gear sailing and DUH.

Wouter
Posted By: maritimesailor

Re: F16 Viper Club version announced for Junior Sailors ! - 07/09/10 01:50 PM

Just to follow up, the F16 Club is a great idea, my "summarized" two cents as a long time opti coach at the national level:
-target the racing kids coming out of Optis. They are the ones that are looking to spend $$$ on a top notch 420 (10k, easily)
-Don't say "sail 420s or us", do like the 29er has, offer the boat as an alternative that compliments 420 sailing (most 29er kids I've worked with only used 420s for a season to get up to speed on double handed boats).
- Price Price Price, match top end 420s, 29ers, or don't bother
- To parent's, debunk the myth that a 420 is easier to maintain then a cat. Trust me, 420s SUCK to cart around to regattas, but on roofs, etc. Steping a mast on a viper is trivial compared to car topping a 420.
- Sell the boat with a trailer, see above two notes
- DEMO the heck out of the boat at opti regattas. If I don't see two club vipers sitting at Orange Bowl this winter you have missed out big time (800+ junior sailors in Optis, 420s, 29ers, Laser 4.7, radials and full rigs). THAT is your demographic.

I look forward to pushing these boats. Learn from Bic and the o'pen bic, big club deals (buy 10 at a ridiculously low price, get dollys, etc etc). They haven't surpassed the Opti, but certainly got a lot of clubs buying in.
Posted By: Timbo

Re: F16 Viper Club version announced for Junior Sailors ! - 07/09/10 02:25 PM

First you have to tell them what the Orange Bowl is.

I know it's -the- big midwinter kid's regatta in Miami, but since there are no cats, most of the cat regulars here have never heard of it. Do you have the dates for that regatta yet?

I went to it once, in about 1986, to kid-nap my old 505 crew, who was by then sailing for the Navy Academy. I showed up, found him, and took him to South Beach...

Don't ask.
Posted By: Chris9

Re: F16 Viper Club version announced for Junior Sailors ! - 07/10/10 01:02 AM

JC,

Thanks for coming to West River with the Viper Club. The three of us really enjoyed meeting and sailing with you. Looking forward to seeing the pictures you took of my 8 yr old Bella on the wire of the Viper Club while she was driving it. She hasn't stopped talking about it. Every time Bella brings up the moment Adam adds that you were sitting to leeward on Gertie and he was on the windward hull which was about 4 feet above the water. Thanks for the offer Wouter, I figured out how to make the pictures smaller

Attached picture Bella Viper Club 1.jpg
Attached picture Bella JC Adam 1.JPG
Attached picture Bella Viper Club 2.JPG
Posted By: Wouter

Re: F16 Viper Club version announced for Junior Sailors ! - 07/10/10 08:47 AM



Send the pics to my mail account and I use photoshop to make them smaller and then post them in this thread.

Send them to wouterhijink(at)hotmail.com

Wouter
Posted By: pgp

Re: F16 Viper Club version announced for Junior Sailors ! - 07/12/10 11:44 AM

Very, very cool JC. But you better be careful, that kind of stuff will have you shopping for a Mrs.
Posted By: maritimesailor

Re: F16 Viper Club version announced for Junior Sailors ! - 07/12/10 12:28 PM

very cool pics!

Orange Bowl: Arguably the biggest Junior sailing event in NA, 800+ kids (last year I think it was 1000) from all over the world, age max (I think) is 18. Fleets, Opti (the best of the world attends, 200+ plus boats), Laser Radial and 4.7, 420s... might be full rig as well, maybe 29ers, I'm on the Opti course so don't know for sure.

Always happens Dec 26th - 30th, every year that I have been alive and probably more ;-)
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