One person enough to right the F16 in all conditions?

Hi F16-ers,

yes I'm dreaming of a F16 boat. I want earlier or later change to this tempting class with its light weight and high speed. Sailing single hand and near the limits with my 0,18ton-Nacra I often ask myself wether you are able to right your boats alone ALWAYS and without any righting devices!?

Is there a difference in righting among the F16 boats like the "heavy" Viper to a lighter one like Falcon?

I have a weight of 75kg (that's about 165lbs isn't it?)

Thanks for your comments!

I've righted in most conditions without a problem, but I outweigh you by 40 pounds. I've heard of the lighter guys using a garbage bag and filling it full of water when needed.

No problems so far, always comes up easy. Seems to easier in more wind. Just make sure your mast is well sealed. I am heavy (100kg) and tall (1.87cm) so that helps. I don't think the few extra kilos in the viper would make any difference unless you went turtle. I'm sure someone will let you have a go if you're near any F16s!

I'm 68Kg and have never yet been unable to right my boat in all conditions.

I think it depends on the conditions.

If it's windy, no problem. But if you somehow capsize in lightish winds, it could possibly be a problem.

All you need is a righting bag or trash bag to make sure!


Mike

I have my I18 on the "Ammersee" a lake in South Germany. The only F16 I have ever seen there over the last two years was one Viper headin' down South and coming back North with a broken jib :-/ I don't know where the boat lies nor who ownes it. The first close look I had on the Viper was in Texel this June. My area is Hobie dominated, then comes Topcat and then all the others but no F16's yet.

I think its a little bit like buying a car. If people have the choice most of them take the bigger engine (F18). Later they (me too) recognize the smaller one (F16)would have been the smarter choice. Especially if there is no real or big performance difference.

I think that all F16 with the super wing mast behave more or less the same. With lighter masts it is even easier. My Javelin even has a 9m carbon mast and I can right it without bags or whatever device. I am 70kg and 1.80m.
It requires maybe a bit more know how to right as a single hander: where to stand on the hull turning the boat to the wind etc.

Cheers,

Klaus

I have had problems righting the blade solo, weigh 165 or so. Need some wind to do it. if there are only very light winds I can't get it back up without using some type of aid.

I am 150 (68kg) and can right it solo unaided with the aluminum rig only if it is blowing around 12 or more. I can right the carbon rig myself in any condition.

To be safe when sailing solo I do now always try to carry a righting bag just in case.

Agreed. I think you need to be 175 lbs (79 kg) to right in all conditions. I weigh about 170 lbs (77 kg) and need the bag for certain light conditions (I use a heavy duty garbage bag--fill it with a couple of gallons of water and bring it up to your chest...bingo boat comes over).

Speaking of righting aids one thing I did recently was to get rid of the thin righting line that nests under the tramp and replace it with a nice fat line that I keep in the tramp bag to be thrown over the hull when capsized. I couldn't grip the small line and that led to problems when my height was not right. With the fat line I can grab it easily and climb up or down as needed to keep my body out of the water. Used it last week and it was great. My 2 cents. Ed

Agree with you on that, but I kept losing stuff out of my tramp bag when I'd pull the fat line out ... decided that the under tramp method was sufficient. (I did have sewn into my tramp bag a small pouch for my trash bags for easy access).

Heavier winds is not a guarantee righting. Sometimes the current will not allow the bows go all the way to weather. Recently, was all the way on tip of the bows and even paddling and she still could not come around enough. I was thinking I needed a sea anchor.

Yes the thin line needs to be hooked into the harness like a trap otherwise I agree the heavier line would be much more comfortable.

Clipping in may be more effective however especially if there is a need for righting bag as it frees up a hand and requires much less energy then hanging by ones arms while dealing with the bag. Also maybe best to conserve energy for the subsequent swim and remount.

I have failed once to right my Stealth which has a light carbon mast. My only righting aid at that time was a friend on his A Class. I was probably just under 75kgs at the time and the wind was light.
If I were to have a heavier alloy mast I doubt whether I would be Class legal as the F16 rules state the crew must be able to right the boat.

The rule says the sailor must be able to right the boat but this includes using any dependable righting aid you can think off.

Personally, I have never failed to right my 120 kg F16 with alu mast. I'm 86 kg and 1.85 mtr tall. As the others say it does get more difficult with lighter winds. The hardest conditions to right the boat in are no waves and no wind. Having said that, the F16's are the most easily righted catamarans on the market today after the A-cats and possibly the Swell Shadow. For example, I was not able to right the Hobie FX-one with just the righting line in anything under 15 knots with waves.

The easy of righting a F16 means that lighter skippers can right the boat with relatively simple aids like the earlier mentioned trashbag. The vast majority of other designs typically need more elaborate schemes (when righting singlehandedly)

Opting for a F16 carbon mast over an F16 alu mast wins you about 10 kg's of righting weight. Meaning you can right the boat with 10 kg less on the righting line. This seems to tie in well with the experience covered by others in the thread. When it comes to survival then removing the mainsail from the mast (hard work BUT can be done during a capsize) will win you another 15 to 20 kg. The threshold for F16's under ALL conditions seems to be just over 75 kg, making survival possible for anybody over 60 kg (as you do carry a peddle on your boat right ? Or are prepared to peddle with your hands).

As a last remark, there will always be some weight below which righting a catamaran will not be viable. Here in the F16 class we define righting under ALL possible conditions including no winds or waves (hardest). Lots of others just assume that you don't capsize below 10 knots and that results in a significant difference in quoted righting weight.

There are quite a few "rumours" about the differences between the Viper and the other F16's like the Falcon, Aqua raptor, Stealth and Aussie Blade. Most of them contain very little truth if any at all.

For righting the most important parameter is the weight of the mast and rig and possibly the amount of water sticking to the sails or that is inside the mast. A hooking leech can trap some water on the sail near the top and make a huge difference in righting weight. Differences in Hull weight etc are not really a factor at all.

An importance aspect to note is that all F16's use the same alu mast and as good as identical sails and rigging. This means that the Viper rig is basically identical in weight (and righting) to the others (excepting the Carbon F16 rigs). Then add maybe 3 kg additional righting weight to compensate for the heavier hulls etc (assuming a 130 kg Viper) and you're there. By comparison, 1 kg additional tipweight already results in 8.5 kg additional righting weight and this shows how much more important the rig weight is in comparison to platform weight.

At 75 kg you will be just a tad too light for righting in what most would call no-wind/no-wave conditions (0-5 knots, flat water). You should be fine in "normal" regular sailing conditions without using any right aids but with a proper righting technique. Carry a bag for safety and expect to not use it unless you somehow flip the boat in flat water and rather light winds.

Best advice I can give you is to arrange for a test ride on a F16 and simply try righting it alone; then you know for certain.

Wouter

I'm fairly light at ~160lbs(73kg) and have had difficulty pulling the Viper up in lighter air. Any wind or waves and its not too bad.

One thing I've noticed is when sailing with crew, just them being on the lower hull and not necessarily pulling on the righting line the boat comes right up. I wonder if the extra weight pressing the hull, (over singlehanded), in the water helps slow the drift making it easier to come up?

Dan and I sailing at 385 didn't have to use the righting line when the wind was up, just pull on the dolphin striker.

The Righting Rule (1.8) states;
1.8.1 It is the responsibility of the crew to ensure that the boat is equipped with a righting system that will enable the crew to right the boat without outside assistance.
My F16 is equipped with a righting line but still occasionally I can't right my F16 when the wind is very light. So by the letter of the law I'm breaking a F16 Rule!

Thank you all for sharing your expieriences.

My first own cat was a Hobie 16 and after your replies I think its about the same with the F16. Mast sealed, Wind and a not too exhausted sailor are necessary for the job.

Interesting to hear of the idea to pull down the main. I'm gonna try that next time when i'm drifting down the lake turtled and no help in sight.

I'd read "outside assistance" as help you get from "outside" your boat (ie another boat or person). If you have a righting bag on your boat that is no more or less assistance than a righting line.

Therefore, you are within the rules of the F16 class.

my 0.02
Terry

Recently I had the same problem as Kris H posted earlier
I weigh around 75kg wind was 15-18knt capsised on a jibe when hiking footstrap broke Boat was beam on to wind with current and waves in same direction as wind

I could swim the bows to 45 degrees but not straight into the wind as soon as I got to righting position the boat would swing back to beam on.

The mast head would not come clear.. But the boat came up easy once a young guy of a speedboat helped me pull on the righting line

Any ideas for next time.. I typically sail in currents around 3 knots

Black trash bag seems to be the item of choice. Get yourself into righting position, scoop water into the bag and viola!

But, I'm afraid that will lead to a safety issue i.e. the boat trying to sail away. I simply can't get back aboard if the boat is moving more than 2-3 knots. So, I've decided to attach a rope boarding ladder to the spin pole.

Normally I right with the main uncleated. I'm considering trying to right with the main sheeted in the "park" position. Anybody tried it?

Open main and traveller sheet, open rotation and downhaul, swim to the bow, sit on it and hang your legs in the water. I mean the bow, not somewhear near the front beam, really the tip of the bow. If it will not turn, go in the water and grab the spi bridle (and maybe the righting line for safety), be patient. Your are the sea anchor to turn the boat. Once the wind is going under the sail, you have done the job. In really strong wind, if you right the boat, stand in front of the front beam. If not, the boat may start the bear away during righting, but with you on the wrong side... (don't ask why I know).

Cheers,

Klaus

Or just walk along the bow hanging onto the spi pole; as the weight goes forward; the boat goers head-to. Usual problem is that the downhaul is still on/and mainsheet or taveller still sheeted in.

I used to right my I20 alone all the time using the above "Sit on the bow, put your feet in the water and wait for the wind to get under the main" method.

Pete, do you have small loops tied in the ends of your righting lines? I do, so all I have to do is hook my trap hook into the loop and lean back, after the boat is turned in the proper direction of course. Hands free righting!

The only time I could not right mine alone was in very light air, I finally flagged down a jet ski who lifted the mast tip up out of the water for me just enough to get it to come over.

If I had a plastic trash bag that would have done it I'm sure, but when the wind is up, I never have a problem, as the wind gets under the mast and lifts it up for you.

I use a hookless trapeze system. There is a knot in my righting line at the appropriate length.

I like just making a half wrap around the hook then holding the line at the hook. I used to tie a loop, but found it almost impossible to get back on the boat, (without going in the drink first), while righting.

How are you getting back on the boat?

I had the main, traveller and downhaul all off (maybe not rotation) and was hanging right on the bow kicking with my legs to swing the bows into the wind but could still only get it to 45 degrees enough to get the wind under the sail but could not get it round further
When I then climbed back up to righting position it would swing back round to beam on. I can only think it was the waves /current pushing the boat back around.. I did drift a good distance in the time I was over. I have a murrays style righting bag with 2 to 1 that I have never used .. will have to give that a go but it sounds like overkill if all you guys use is a bin bag!

Pete,
I get back on the boat by grabbing the dolphin striker as it comes over. Then with an arm on the main beam, one on the hull, facing sort of aft and outward, and I can swing a leg up on the hull forward, and scramble onto the hull, and then the tramp.
I've also experienced getting the bows into the wind, but having it reorient by the time I get to the righting line/pole. Not sure what the solution is to that.

Dave

I think most of the guys double the bag, just to be on the safe side.

That depends entirely on how much you've had to drink.....


What Dave said.

A Two Bagger? yeah, been there, done that!

Her, "how about we go back to my place tonight?"
Me, "I can't, I'm too drunk."
Her, "Well what about tomorrow?"
Me, "I can't, I'll be too sober..."

8^0

That's the same way I do it. Except if the boat has ANY headway, I'm not strong enough.

If it is windy enough, the boat will lift back up with less effort and making it possible to slip around the front beam and onto the tramp while she rights. Cool when you can pull it off.

Did it twice on a Blade. Have not had many opportunities on the Falcon (so much harder to capsize and more experienced) and the higher beam with prominent chine may make it harder to achieve.

Which hull are you trying to mount from? The one in the water or the one in the air?

The one in the water. There's a small window there where the boat is coming up, put doesn't need you to pull anymore. On an A-Cat its cake, with a spin pole in the way it can be tricky.

Hmm. I have a lot of strings up front that get in the way.

My knee jerk reaction is to go to a large heavy duty bag kept under the tramp. It would require some rigging, but if you substitute the bag for your body weight, you could then sit on the "down" hull and haul the boat over, remounting without the need for gymnastic ability. Maybe not the best solution for racing but more certain when sailing alone.

http://store.catsailor.com/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=8453&idcategory=0

Don't discount the effort of retrieving a righting bag in medium to high winds.

This may be the problem; you need to let the sterns drift down wind; not swim/kick the bows to the wind.

If you are forward you are sinking the bows; trying to swim them round is going to be difficult/impossible; let the wind blow the higher-flowting sterns to drift away.

Problem is if there is a strong current from the same direction. The bows being pushed down dig into the current. Usually, it results in a 45% angle to the wind.

I recall watching you that night and from the stand it looked like you were doing all the right things.

I agree, the problem can be the issue of getting the bows in the right direction and then getting on the hull in time to right it. In 15kn of wind, should be no problem getting it back up even if you weigh 70lbs. I haven't had an issue recently... but I don't sail the boat very frequently.

in 15kt's you could damn near right the Titanic singlehanded.

(edit)- Its the days when you're screwing around on the low side in light air its tough to right a singlehanded F16. When its blowing its pretty easy. Add some waves its even easier.