gps

How do you feel about using them when racing. I'm for it.

Nothing in the rules prevents you using them. Why the question?

Really. I just assumed there was such a rule.

Specifically, I have a tendency to pinch and I don't feel the boat start to slow. For instance, when doing 5.5 knots I can't feel the boat slow to 5.3. But a glance at the gps lets me know right away. I suspect that I chronically sail at .5 knots less than optimum speed, perhaps even slower.

Maybe not in the F16 rules, but outside of that I would check before using a GPS-like device (anything that uses radio signals).
Otherwise you could be in violation of RRS Rule 41 (Outside Assistance.

Personally I feel they are an invaluable tool for testing training and kind of cool just to see what you are doing. In a Race I feel they have no place.
If it was just a compass and or speed there is not much harm. With GPS however now you can have marks, laylines, start line etc. and now you enter into an area of assisted performance. This is the same as allowing on course coach boats, or radio communications. If they are allowed cart blanch for racing, it will not be possible to sort out who is using what and this is why electronics are banned across the board in certain classes.
Racing sailboats should be not be about power or electronics. Powered sail controls, artificial navigation etc and it is no longer sailboat racing, you might as well stay home and drive your Xbox

I would have to argue that GPS signals are "freely available to all boats"

umm. You could override that via class rules, perhaps?

Matt see what Krantz and Maritime sailor are saying over here, down at the bottom: http://www.catsailor.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=220569#Post220569

I dunno, but buying a $1,000 TackTick doesn't seem "freely available" to me.

Just sayin'
T.

+1

Yes, and some class rules do. The F18 prohibit GPS for example. This restriction is often lifted by the SI especially on long distance races.

I used a single Suunto compass with adjustable tacking bands for many years, and then switched to 2 for reasons below. I found it worked great on flat water, but to confusing in the ocean. Basically, the tacking angle on flat water was 90 degrees, and in the ocean it was 110 degrees on a TheMightyHobie18.

It was confusing in the ocean because the waves would not come from the same direction on the race course as the wind. The waves continually changed their height, angle and spacing to the boat throughout the day, making one tack's VMG appear better than the other tack, change. The sea state/angle changes during the race, the tacking angle can be 50 degrees off the nose on one tack, and 60 on the other, then as the waves build change to 50 and 65 equals 115 degrees.

Sea state/wave angle affects your tacking angle and VMG. On the race course in the ocean with no land bearing, when your compass shows a 5-10 degree change you need to know if this change is due to the wind OR sea state/wave angle, because when you tack your compass reading will be WAY OFF due to sea state and wave angle on the other tack. The sea state/wave angle can change with proximity to the shore. The wave
height and distance between waves can change due to depth of water which could vary
over the race course.

There were to many constantly changing variables involved adjusting the tacking angle in short course coastal racing trying to figure out why it changed from one tack to the other due to sea state/angle, OR did the wind change? A compass that can adjust the wind direction for each tack is needed to compensate for the sea state/angle, or two compasses would be more accurate. I'm not saying it can not be done, but it takes a lot of racing practice, when not to use the compass. Things are changing quickly, and keeping you eyes out of boat scored better.

The state of the current technology is such that as many have pointed out, the potential benefits are almost always outweighed by the distraction. Pete, if you slow down .2 knots you still need to know whether it was a pressure drop, wind change, change in current, or waves before knowing what to adjust in course or trim. Time on the boat.

It is only a small matter of time though before they come up with a useable smart system that can provide coaching like feedback. As a class we can agree to allow these in whatever form or ban them in whatever form. The 18 US group is trying to write some all encompassing words to make a committee happy, banning something that no one really knows what it may be they are trying to ban as the technology has not happened yet.

To me racing should be about the person and their boat. Cool toys to play with. Train with them to better learn your equipment and become a better sailor, but do not be techno dependant.

There is a similar discussion on the main page- "Can f18" thread.

I've only started using gps. Basically, I'm just using it as a knot meter. If my speed slows, then I'm probably getting headed or pinching. If it increases I'm probably footed off too far. It takes a fraction of a second to look at the instrument and a second or two to determine what action to take.

Mostly my head is out of the boat, when I glance at the horizon and that has changed, I look at the instrument.

I still haven't used gps in competition. But some of the f16 guys used theirs at Racine.

You're right Matt in that you still have to know what to do, but the first time I looked at my gps and it was reading 3+ knots instead of 5.5 the hair stood up on the back of my neck! It was like a giant fire alarm had gone off. Sitting here at the computer three weeks afer the fact, I know EXACTLY what my boat feels like at 3+.

For some of us gps would be a huge benefit during competition. As a class we need to decide what to do. I would like to use mine at Eustis but will gladly go along with whatever is considered fair play.

Ya'll make up my mind!

Pete, this is just like anything else. If it is allowed, the guys who already know how to sail will have an even larger advantage as they will be both better equiped to not be distracted and will know better how to interpret what they are seeing.

I see this as an issue where we just add to the skills gap that is already a big issue in getting more people involved. New guys now have to buy a boat, gear, spend money to travel, and oh yeh now to be competitive you just have to have one of these new boxes to tell you what to do.

Where is there any advantage and how does this make racing better?

You won't have to wait half an hour for me to finish! Being able to sail at a higher average speed will get rid of a huge amount of frustration for me. You can trust me on that.

But I don't want this to be a debate between the two of us. It should be a matter for the class as a whole. Remember, that to date, I haven't used gps in competition. Others have.

I use my gps a lot as a speedometer. By sailing with it all the time for the last two years I know my approximate target speed for the wind velocity upwind and downwind. In short I use speed polars instead of angle polars as I feel I am more adept at reading wind speed than I am at reading wind angles.

Example: for a wind speed of around 12 knots I know I should aim for 8-9 knots upwind and 14-15 downwind. At 18 knots of wind I aim for 11-12 upwind and as much as I dare downwind (Usually 17-18 knots). If I'm slower than my target speed upwind I bear off, if I'm faster I know I'm not pointing enough. Same thing downwind in reverse, I get on one hull and then I aim for my target.

If I can't get to my target speed I know something is wrong somewhere.

Once I'm in the groove at approximately the right speed I fine tune in gusts trying to never dip below my target.

This technique is explained in excruciating details in a French ebook by Olivier Aguerre called " Elements de stratégie et tactique en cata de sport" (Google translate version) and I feel I made quite a lot of progress since I started using it.

I think the speedometer thing is invaluable. In racine I was POSITIVE I was going dead slow, I think I was surfing a bit and everything was just way too calm, but I was crankin' along at 12.5 kts downwind. Instead of changing something and possibly screwing up what was going down, I kept on truckin'.

Shift indicator, not so much except on long tacks. I don't get much water where I don't have something to reference to. Open water with a really long course it might be pretty handy. If you're slowly getting knocked, it can be easy to miss how far you've gone off track.

I rarely if ever use my tak tic for Club racing. I occasionally use it in very light winds to ease the boredom. I tend to just sit still and stare at the LED's, day dreaming of anything to get my mind off drifting.
As for GPS I can't see the point! I don't want to know what's happening now. I want to know what's going to happen, in front of me up the beat or behind me on the runs. That would help no end and if the 'Tec' could also predict the lottery numbers just for me that would be extremely useful too.

There is a new thread opened in the Open forum about this, maybe better to all post there?
http://www.catsailor.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=220589#Post220589

It is fascinating for me watching this instrumentation thingee beginning to happen. I remember very clearly the first " flight directors " appearing in the gliders I used to fly and then GPS navigation becoming integrated into that " flight direction ".

It was truely amazing the very short time it took for the users to adopt the technology and an even more amazing,the short time for the instrumentation to become better than the pilot to " direct the flight". One thing for sure guys it is going to happen considering the size of the market and one thing for sure it will enhance our sailing experiance, what it will not do though is make the poorer sailor better than the best sailor, it simply moves the goal posts equally for everyone.

The one odd thing for me has always been why has it taken so long considering the development of big boat instrumentation over the last ten years.

I like having a foretrex on my wrist to see what my speed is, but if I feel the boat is sluggish then the speed usually matches. I can usually judge by feel if I am "in the groove" or not. The fun of trying to see just how fast you were going is undeniable... but that is just for screwing around. I find it helpful to judge some shifts I suppose if you keep an eye on your heading.

As far as VMG and whatnot... I think the only thing that will reliably tell you whether you are truly pointing as well as you can is if there is another person close to you trying to do the same thing. Helps too if they are an expert.
but... then again... boat set up and weight can certainly alter your pointing ability.