Uni spin hoist

I've almost convinced myself to go to a two line system.

Can I gain any speed by altering the diameter of the blocks?

I like the two line system because at A mark, when you pull the tack out first, you have also pulled half the spin out, so when you pull the halyard it comes up really fast and easy. And when sailing Uni, on the douse, if something happens (traffic!) where you have to stop snuffing for a minute to...um...steer (!) you won't shrimp the spinny, the tack line will keep the foot up out of the water and you can finish the snuff when you have it under control.

Yes, it takes a few extra seconds to pull the tack line release on the douse, but it keeps it simple and easy. And yes, a bigger radius block (in any application) will allow the line to run through it faster with less drag.

Pete, after Tradewinds someone handed me a trap handle with a ball hook on it for you. If you need it right away I can send it.

Thanks but that isn't necessary. I'll pick it up next time I see you.

Are you running the stock turning block, at the top of the hoist? I was thinking of replacing that with one larger but I'm not sure how much larger nor am I sure how much can be gained.

Karver KB6 here

Has anyone ever played with furlers on single handers? It occurs to me that with a furler and a modified retrieval setup. You could hoist the kite as you approach the mark (from Trap with little load), and simply grab the sheet and pull on it after bearing away, effectively allowing a set as fast as the 2 man boats. At the bottom mark you would furl the kite (again quicker and easier than dropping) get around the mark, get the boat going then drop the furled sail (similar to what you see on the big boats but with some form of retrieval rope). It would take some thought and setup but if you got it right you could eliminate the biggest hole in single handed performance.

Nope, replaced it with a slightly larger diameter Harken with a hole in the center where I run the line around the mast. Ask Matt what size it is.

Now there is an idea! Thanks. You too Tim.

29mm airblock. harken part h348. like 10$ done it on 3 boats and never had a problem.... however: at area D I had my line that functions as the bale and goes through the center of the block broke on day one (i saw it needed to be replaced when I set the boat up but didn't). Sailed awesome that day though... might say something about my sheeting angle for my spin though.

Okay:

Karver 45mm/$44

Harken 29mm/$10~

I'm thinking I need two so that's $88 v $20. Any idea what I get for the extra money?

Two? For the hoist block up on the mast??

don't know which karver block you are referring to, but no you don't need it. get the harken. Why do you need two????

I'm still using the original system. One of the things I find distracting is to pull from stern to bow when dousing. I want to put a turning block on the port side of the forward cross bar, then I can douse by pulling bow to stern.

Where is your spin halyard clete? On the mast or on the front beam, starboard side? And are you using the "all in one" halyard/tack line or two separate lines?

One thing I don't like is having all my 'strings' on top of the tramp, I find I'm usually sitting or kneeling on...something...and that's why it won't set or snuff.

The Vipers run a lot of stuff under the tramp and out the lace up sides to keep the strings out of the way, but since my tramp sides are in a grooved plae in the hull, I can't run much under the tramp, just the halyard coming up from the snuffer sock.

Pete-I think a two line system would work well to get it up faster. The block at the top of the mast could be a little bigger but it was working fine last weekend. Biggest problem with your system is that tapper on the halyard; it is getting stuck in the grommet in the back of the bag. If you fix that issue you should have no problem with the hoist. Dropping it was a breeze...loved the ease...wish mine was that fast and easy!
Thanks again for a great weekend of sailing!

You're very welcome, I was glad to have you aboard.

Joanna, would you be insulted if we had a Uni regatta, and do you think Jody would do it? And could you also sail Uni on your -extra- boat?

Just kicking ideas around.

I use a spinlock mounted on the starboard side of the front cross bar, as original.

my boat was originally set up like that. what I did was to string a block where the snuffer line would turn around after coming out of the spin sock. Then there is another turning block at the front right beam where there is an open triangle. Pulls down very easily. FWIW, I use a single tack/halyard system

The double line system Matt has on the Falcon now is very neat. I think I have some pics if you're interested.

Gill

I'd like to see them.

i am interested in trying a 1:2 spin halyard set up. Imagine only having to pull half as much line. That would speed things up.

Yes, but I think that is a reciprocal arrangement: 1:2 up = 2:1 down.

My thinking is 1:1 and reduce drag as much as possible.

I'd like to see the snails developed a bit further.

Works really well for the first 9/10th of the uphaul and then the spinny starts to fill, the last 1/10th is just a pain and 3 out of 10 hoists you can't complete without going dead down wind, don't ask me how I know.

good info. thanks for posting it! I'll skip trying it. have enough maintenance to do otherwise since I never have time to do it.

Will a modern spi furl well? When I looked at this way back furling was an issue. Perhaps there have been developments, or do we still have to compromise on luff shape and shoulder to make it furl?

I like the snails, but would that really be faster than a regular snuffer?

Good question on the shape, it would be worth a chat with a sail maker. I agree with you on the snail you're still hoisting and retreving the kite, as far as I can see it could only have more friction. There would be a slight windage advantage but I suspect it would be offset by the friction and the reported ware on the sail inflicted by the early models.

I 'know', well, sort of know.. that a regular spi will furl poorly due to the shape of the luff and shoulder. But I was thinking perhaps we got some new furling gear that would be able to handle this better?

I definately would like some option for uni's to set and douse spis as fast or faster than the sloops!

I hoist my spinny just as fast uni as sloop, the problem is, when I'm uni I can't steer at the same time. We need to figure out a way to set the spinny with one hand, quickly, while steering with other...

what if there were a way to put a spinlock or some type of cleat on the snuffer line so you could at least pull it down with one hand? If you pull the snuffer line with the current set up then you need positive control of it all the time so it doesn't go crazy. if you had that cleat then you could pull, let go, reach further up and pull again. Clearly not as efficient and fast as doing it 2 handed but might be worth a try. I'd be willing to try it, but where would I put the cleat?

well, now that I think about it, we do this when we raise the spin and you still need both hands for that.
oh well...

My tackline cleat is mounted under the front beam and is released by a ring that the halyard runs through.

http://www.facnor.com/uk/products/asym_spi_furlers/default.asp

This is cool if your cruising on your 60 foot shitter. But far from perfect. To coin a phrase (dont ask me how i know.)

The single line system works very well for us. Can set the kite just as quick if not quicker than the 2 line f18s. Cant expect much better than that. 1 line would be the best option for 1 up uni in my opinion.

Check out this review of 3 single handers in Y&Y UK, thing to look for is not the cat but the RS700, read the 'off the wind' system. You'll see it has a 'pump' system to raise the spin one handed. Anyone at a UK club seen this up close? A friend of mine had a 700 when I last lived in UK, but I never bothered to check this system out.

http://www.shadowsailing.org.uk/documents/TrapezeSinglehanderGroupTest.pdf

See page 24 and 25 of the owners manual to get some pictures of how the system works:

http://www.rssailing.com.au/pdf/rs700ownersmanual.pdf

My concern would be how quick you could get the spin down with the halyard under enough bungy tension to make the system work. It's tempting to try it out, in my case I think I can get a lot better at the two line system before I start changing things too much.

I prefer two line oover one line as the split drop gives you steering window without the risk of running over the kite and you can set up for the hoist before you round the mark.

How would gybing the spi be done with this system? And can the spi be furled on both tacks?

Using a "pump" system allows for single handed setting and retrieving, so you can actually keep a hand on the helm as well.

Bungee tension dont have to be really high. Just enough to take up and slack in the system.

I'm changing my single line spin halyard to a two line system. How far up the mast should I mount the cleat?

you want to pull it up when you are standing up or sitting down?

Kneeling.

then put it on your mast where kneeling works

There's an idea.

in the end, there is no specific height to put it unless you want it at "stock" height which is a generic place (and more in position to hoist when standing IMO)

about shoulder height. Standing or kneeling.

Pete, the only problem with the cleat on the mast is that you will have to come forward to the mast to cleat it. That is a long way from the tiller. Also it is not the best pace to be in strong winds. Basically you will have the spin all the way up, no tiller and you will be at the front of the bus. The cleat on the beam allows you to hoist from the rear corner which is where you will probably be after A mark/offset.

Understood. I was hoping to get around that by using one of these.

Pete, I have that same block/clete on my boat, but make sure you mount it upside down (from that picture), so when you pull down it will unclete, vs. pulling up to unclete.

Yeh, I was thinking that. How far up the mast did you mount yours? I'm thinking the cleating angle is critical.

get the cleat with aluminum teeth. You will wear through the plastic really quickly. This happened when I had a cleat like that on my 6.0. You essentially grind away the plastic pull up the spin.

I am not completely familiar with the system but I think that from the cleat you run the line down to a block on the beam. It is easy to un cleat but you must move forward to cleat it.

This cleat should lock with just a quick upward flick of the wrist, if I get the angle right. The problem is much like getting the cleating angle right for he main blocks. I think...

Pete, I will measure mine tomorrow and let you know, but from experience, it's just a little higher than my shoulders when kneeling at mid tramp.

You can hoist from either tack if you then run it to the back, but it's much easier and quicker if you always set on starboard, as you should when going left around A mark anyway.

For the drop you only need to yank it hard once, to get it out of the clete, on either gybe, even way at the back of the tramp, then start pulling the snuffer line like a madman. Quick hands is the solution.

But you will need two hands to get it in fast, so...who's driving?

That's why quicker is better and a little earlier drop at the gate is better than later, so you can then get all set up for upwind, (boards, cunningham, rotator) hook in and get out on the wire as you round.

Run a soft outer casing on your halyard for single cleat, or double cleat if it is a hard outer casing. If you are one up, I would not mount the cleat on the mast. Mount the cleat on the front beam and run the halyard through a pully on the tramp, hoisting from behind the pully.

Pete, I just measured, the top of my spin clete is up the mast 24" from the mast base.

Guys,

T-A is right. When going uni, the cleat should be on the beam. Up on the mast is for 2 up sailing. All you will do is invite a spectacular crash and a huge insurance claim minding that you didn't hurt someone. I thought I would add to this thread with my vastly small uni/spin experience.

Take care,
BC

Yeahbut.....some of us go....both ways.

;-)

BOB!!!
Where ya been? Haven't seen ya around here in a while! welcome back! Good to have your uni experience here.
pp
(p.s. I am being serious)

I have removed all the 2-up apparatus on my boat. I am happy with it that way. forces me to be my own man. besides, need some epoxy work to put it back on!!!

Hi Rolf,

I think there are two problems: The first is the mid-girth rule. If you want to have a furling sail, you have the leading edge more straight and than the rule makes the trailing edge too curved to get enough tension on it to get a good shape. The other "problem" is that a furling sail will have a flatter cut, but I am not sure if this is really a drawback, especially if you save 5 s during hoisting and taking down.
For me, the real development stopper is the mid-girth rule. Remove it and after a couple of years we will see much better down wind sails.

Cheers,

Klaus

On non trapezing single hander dinghies with spi, I used to put the tiller extension in the hollow of the knee to helm the boat or simply step on it to fix it. Of course on a cat with its long tiller extension it is not possible, but maybe a device to fix the tiller could already help.
By the way my boat will not luff, if the traveller is dropped. Hence the boat runs straight on a deep course.

Cheers,

Klaus

Come in on your knees. Place tiller extension behind your knees (sitting on it, between calfs and hamies). When you rock from side to side on your knees, you can steer the boat, using 2 hands to set and drop.

I think the mid girth rule is there to prevent the sails from being used upwind. Another handicap/rating rule standing in the way of development..

I have not tried the "pump action" solution, but I have some ideas I would like to test. Being able to set and retrieve reasonably fast with one hand.. Hmm.

On a single hander which is what we're discussing here, I have little doubt a flatter kite would be faster. I'm adding complication here for the sake of internet conversation but could we add short "air batten" parallel to the luff to support the oversize leach?

The question is really:

1: Is flatter faster on a singlehander

2: Can we make such a sail work with roller furling

My opinion:
No 2: Of course we can

No 1: I dont know.

My boat doesn't luff either. I find that raising the sail is very quick, especially using the two line system where the spin is already partially out of the chute before rounding the mark. Although obviously you still have to turn down off the wind to raise for much longer than a 2-up boat. But I think it is lowering the spin that soaks up the most and loss of speed. Also, this is where you have to steer a little bit, because you have the mark rounding as a target, where at the top mark you have an open course. If I get it right I'll sheet in the main to round the mark without using the rudder, more complicated if gybing round as well.

So, I don't think the pump up system will help all that much, what you need is a kind of spring loaded retrieval system!

For the same reasons I can't see how a furler will help that much, it's still going to take a couple of operations to stow away the sail (furl and then retrieve). But I guess it could allow you to carry the sail right to the mark though, so worth investigating if someone has the time.

My theory with the furler is that it lets you hoist and drop the sail at less critical times with respect points on the course and as a result protect your lanes.

Not a handicap or rating rule; the girth rule generally defines what a spi is; Girth <75% it's a Jib; >75% it's a Spi.

That is semantics. Point still stands.

I guess that question number one should be:
Is flatter slower on a single hander?

If not and furling is possible, then try it.

By the way, do the VX40 drop the furled spi once it is up?


From a rule's point of view I don't know. From an aerodynamic point it will help to stabilize. What about horizontal inflated battens? I think it will be more efficient in stabilizing.

Cheers,

Klaus

What happens when you pitchpole and you have to furl it?
Wouldn't that be a lot harder then pulling it into a regular snuffer?, and would you really want a wet furled sail that high up?

VX40s raise and lower their screacher in between downwinds to reduce windage. It is a lot slower to raise/lower and unfurl/furl than it is to set and drop in a chute.

At the top and bottom mark, you olny want to come in once to deal with the kite. Not furl and drop it later.... You should be on the wire and concentrating on your upwind.

Also, dropping a furled screacher is normally the job of more than one person. One drops the halyard whilst the other gathers the kite. Boats that do this tend to have netting in front of the front beam to give the crew access. You also need somewhere to lash the screacher down. So, a screacher that needs to be dropped is a no go for a small OTB craft. Keeping it up = far to much windage and weight aloft.

Keep it up. It is not so much more windage as many think. A midpole snuffer adds drag as well. It is more weight up, but overall less weight than a snuffer. Unfurling is much faster than hoisting and furling is faster than dropping, espicially in big waves. I say this because my boat is fitted with a hooter, and I sail the boat with and without the hooter, so I can tell. I am not saying it is faster, but it is certainly not so worse not to try it (if furling is possible with the mid girth rule shaped sails).

After pitchpole/capsize you have to pull a line, pretty much as with a spi, but again it is faster. Righting requires for my 70kg to drop the wet sail and hoist once it is up. I think that with 80kg it would be a problem at all.

Hopefully I can once sail against a comparable boat to see how much of difference between spi and hooter is.

Cheers,

Klaus

That would be very interesting! Doing some two boat testing, swapping skippers when sailing one up!

Care to make an educated guess on the difference in drag, considering the turbulent flow at the waters surface?

It would be great if someone tried this out. I can't help thinking though, that a spin that satisfies the mid-girth rule, even if you could furl it, is not going to roll up into a neat package. So probably it will be more 'draggy' than a furled hooter type sail.

Inflatable battens would help (to meet the rule and furl), but from the ones I've looked up, you either get permanently inflated (no furling) or inflated/deflated from a compressor or bottle. Which I'm pretty sure would breach external power rules from ISAF, which we all race under.

I really hope someone has a go at making work.

Is the ideal a 1 handed drop without the spin ending up in the water or under the boat?
Could you do this with a system that uncleated the spin halyard as you pulled the takedown line but reengaged the spin halyard cleat(or something that would temp lock the halyard and keep tension for a controled drop) when you were no longer pulling. This could be an automatic type device or something that could be engaged with your foot.

Not sure that would achieve the right result. With a the two line system, trawling the spin isn't an issue. I had a single line on an older boat (not F16) and I don't think a clutch type system to keep tension on would have helped. You just want the sail away as fast as possible. You really want some way of speeding up retrieval rather than introducing more friction. The guys that use single line might have something to say though.

Scarecrow hit upon the solution earlier, have a look at http://www.facnor.com/uk/products/asym_spi_furlers/default.asp which sort of explains it a little.

Nothing very fancy just use a standard furling drum with D12 as the furling line and note the very neat mod of putting a short line to the centre luff edge of the sail, it pulls the centre of the sail in before the ends, it just a matter of adjusting that length to get the smallest tightest roll on the D12.

Problem 1 - Even if you rolled up a perfectly flat hooter, it would have a very significant diameter. All that is up in as drag and in the air you want to be clean as it hits your driving sails. A mid pole snuffer system is tucked down where there is already disturbed air and quite a bit of serious testing in the Tornados showed it added negligible drag to the platform.

The advantage is that they are nearly self deploying. My experience with roller furling on other boats, it is likely to be as difficult to even more difficult to roll up. Either way for the 1 up guy 2 hands are needed to do it fast.

On the very few times I have seen them used on cats they appeared essentially non-competitive. There were other problems and issues, so a true comparison was not had. Logically it just doesn’t to appear that there is enough apparent wind generated to make a hooter perform better than a spin. We have already seen where super flat spin cuts are just not as effective as some others across the range of conditions down wind. For the odd condition or race like super light air where you can have a huge jib effect, or beam reaching they would be great. Upwind - downwind give me spin.

For the time being I've decided to stay with the stock system with one change. I've added a turning block on the front cross bar so that I can retrieve the spin while looking forward. Addition of the turning block allows me a little better posture and body mechanics since I'm not twisted at the waist.

Add a spring between spi pole attachment and furler so that the furler drum stands upright. It is much easier to furl than to drop a spi. I gave the furling line some extra length and knot it to the rear beam. So I can furl the sail from the rear end of the boat. Gives you an extra good feeling in strong wind/wave situation, where on usual spi boats you have to go close to the mast. Two or three velcro strips are stiched on the sail where the sheet is attached. If fully furled, the velcro stripes keep the sail furled and you don't need a cleat. It is a very simple system, which can be rigged in one or two minutes.

Cheers,

Klaus

All,

One major problem that no one has addressed yet is UPPER BODY STRENGTH! All these furlers, etc, still require 2 hands and then you have to get it down and on the boat (windage) wasting yet more boat lengths in a race. Furlers are for cruisers, IMO.

If I can say this on the forum, I had a very slick and easy system for retrieval on my F17. I could outperform 99.9% of the singlehanded spin sailors out there in the hoist and drop. I have pics somewhere on my computer if anyone would like to view. The 2 line systems talked about simply means you have to do one more movement again wasting valuable boatlengths without the kite up and sailing. Don't ask me how I know!

BC

Please show us; in my opinion; it whould be "what works for you". I have a single line system that works for me; might try a 1:2 system to sppeed things up this year if I ever get enough time to spend on the boat!

Show us the pictures mate, it would be great to see another system in action. I think all this might come down to what scooby is saying - horses for courses. You have the system that suits your abilities, style and location at the time. I like the 2 line because I have almost zero risk of dragging the spin and suits how I organise myself (badly) at roundings. I might go back to single line as I get more polished who knows, or if someone shows a killer system on here!

No worries. I'll put them on powerpoint and designate what the system does. Another "complete" trick is to have the spin, hoop mouth, and spin sock coated with either Sailkote or Holmenkol solution. A spin cloth that is already silicone impregnated helps big time! Very low to no stretch line too!

I must have gone thru a large spray can of Sailkote at least every 3-4 weeks. She liked to be all lubed up. I'll try to post the pics tomorrow.

Take care,
BC

Dead set . I mentioned this before but that facnor system is simply not a sensible solution on a single handed boat. It just sucks if you are trying to race.

To furl the spi you will find that you have to pul 4 or 5 times the amount of rope that you have to using a single line system. Believe me I've used it and it is far from the magic bullet you are after.

To furl nicely you need a very thick and very expensive piece of non twist rope to furl it round. I wouldn't want the Windage or the extra wieght. Think about what happens to the kite during the gybe. It will get wrapped around the rope and cause all manner of problems.

Most importantly for people that can't afford to replace the spi 3 times a year, then it definetly not an option. If you want to wreck a nylon sail as quickly as you can then furl it around a piece of rope while it flaps like a bitch because you can't get it furled quickley.

Like Bob said. Single line system. Cleat on the beam. Simple easy. Silicone it if you still have problems.

Here's video of me hoisting and dousing the spin solo on my Taipan 5.7 if your interested, admittedly it is only around 8 knots but it does show a single line system solo and no issues of getting it wet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cplvG9_vm4U

Bob; salkote or similar is a given! Nothing new there!

Thanks for the info.