F-16 in the Olympics

I was reading all the discussion of the Olympics allowing cats back in on the main forum. I know that the boat is still yet to be determined. I was thinking if they were to pick an F16, wether it be viper, falcon, or the nacra thing, would that be good for the class? In the long run would it be good for the builder? Talking with Matt it seems that most of the boats he sells are going to local club racers and the likes. Not sure what the viper numbers are like. But my thought is that if one of our class boats is choosen then the development of that boat is stopped since i believe the IOC would want a SMOD boat. So the F16 fleet progresses over the next few years and at some point the olympic boat is no longer the new cool boat and less normal people buy it. Is that good or bad?

Neither. The devil is in the details.

Whether F16 or F18, I think Olympic selection would at the very least complicate the ongoing development of either class. I think putting some distance between the Olympic selection and any existing formula would be a smart move - like the Tornado has been to date. I haven't heard any compelling arguments as to why the T isn't still suitable, but a new one design could work as well.

I know there is a case for making the Olympic class something suitable for mass participation, with the Laser usually being rolled out as the example. But I think the fact that mass participation in cat sailing (to the extent we can call it that) has generally moved in the direction of Formula classes rather than SMOD makes it difficult to go in that direction.

Was the Tornado ever "SMOD"? I think there were several builders, right? Or did it evolve to only Marstrom boats in the end? And what about their sails? Not SMOD either, right?

Correct, OD not SMOD, but close to an SM platform in practice.

I think anyone racing at the Olympic level should be able to jump on any cat and make it work. A long time ago I said they should do the Olympics like we do our Alter Cup. Get one manufacturer to 'donate' 20(?) brand new...what evers...but all the same hulls, sails, masts, ettc. and do a round robin type thing. Then sell the boats after the event. Wether it's some F16, F18, Hobie 16, or a 20' something, they should be able to figure it out in short order.

+1....That has been my opinion for a long time, a la Alter Cup. However, the manufacturer should not have to donate. Definately a discount. The host country should be able to sell or donate them post-Olympics. Should also designate a class per event (men's, women's, youth, mix) and select a different boat from the class every Olympics within reason to avoid freezing a model in time.

I didn't really mean a full out donation, no manufacturer could afford that, but more of a "Lease", and then have an entry fee for each country/team which would go to pay for the boats. Then after the regatta the organizers could sell the boats and either pay the supplier or use the money to invest in the next fleet, 4 years later.

I think a $20,000 entry fee, per team, would still be a lot cheaper than what the teams would pay to first buy and then ship their own boat to the Olympics.

Just a thought..

You train 4 to 8 years for the Olympics (300,000 +).... You are in the games and the boat you have for that round,.. drops the rig and you are out... who's fault is that? who pays? (god forbid your major opponent sailed that boat the cycle before)
You are talking conspiracy theory and lawyers. the request for redress will go forever. Who won that day will not be decided until the next day...

It happens to the best of em... see 49ner medal race last time.

If its your boat... and it blows up... it's your problem.

What happens with Alter Cup? Same rules.

Whole different ball of wax. The alter cup folks didn't spend last last four years spending fourty hours a week on the boat to get there.

The alter cup solution led to the popularization of the infamous phrase.

Instant justice on the sand!

Can't see that working in the Olympics..... they would be throwing more then sand at the end of that one.

So what happens in the Alter Cup if there is a breakdown? Is there not a series of races and the ability to throw out a few and seek redress in some circumstances relative to which group you are competing in? One of the functions of throw outs is it recognize that sh#t happens.

Incorrect.

Tornado is NOT OD; there are class rules that control the paramaters; originally developed as a boat that could be home built; thus there are +/- tolerances on hull; thus allowing SOME disfferences in hull shapes. Marstoil eventailly won on quality of the boats.

MASTS are strictly (at the moment) SMOD as Marstrol makes them all.

Sails are free within class rules (but there are quite a few measurement points).

Rudder blades are fairy open (again tolerance rules)

Centre boards are tightly controled in shape but not construction (Carbon was banned, but not checked in a while).

Control systems are fairly free.



SMOD - made by one factory from one set (or sets) of molds

OD - made in a number of factories; with tight tolerances and "look" the same; think about putting sails on top of each other. Are all the main sails the SAME shape? Yes; It's an OD. If the sails are different shape it's not an OD.

The Tornado is considered by ISAF as OD (the ones that count) and is a Multi Manufacturer One Design Class with minimal tolerances to allow for home builders (and other manufactures)

Didn't ITA received a proposed amendment to their class rules to make the sails SMOD? I remember seeing something like that after China, is this still on the table?

Who says the Tornado will show up for the evaluation event in its current form? That class have a good history of transforming itself when needs arise. Look for a re-modelled Tornado on the starting line of the evaluation event!


Ref: http://catsailingnews.blogspot.com/2011/05/darren-bundock-interview.html
(much to ponder in that interview)

PS: It is Marstrom building Tornados, and they are the de-facto SMOD. Company is run by olympic Tornado sailor Gøran Marstrøm.

Here's what I think...

Good for the boat, could be bad for the class. Especially if a F16 boat gets picked.

Notice I said "could be bad", here's my explanation.


Our class, in my opinion, is not "mature/old" enough to handle a manufacture to go one design. It appears that (according to the interview above) that Bundy is kind of pushing one design, but also admits that a lot of the sailors on the Viper sail in F16 regattas. I sail a Viper and I'll be the first one to say it, if they want the Viper to be more of a one design boat, I'm OUT! If they handle it correctly, it can be done nicely, which would be good for the class. But, you know how that goes sometimes. The class will implode onto itself if they push more of a one-design. There aren't enough choices in the class now as it is.

The Multihull world CANNOT sustain another one design class. At least not for long, 10 years tops.

I came into this class because of the Formula concept and the option of sailing UNI or Sloop.

I'm not saying don't pick the F16, I'm saying choose wisely on how to handle the situation.

In my opinion, there are only a couple of options that wouldn't hurt certain classes if they were chosen...

F18/tiger. It's old enough that a manufacture could spit out an older boat, something like the Tiger. And that wouldn't hurt the F18 class.

Or

Tornado. It's already been proven and it can be sailed mixed.

But,
The Olympics, when it comes to what they decide to put in, is a bunch of Politics. I'd almost rather NOT have a multihull in the Olympics because of it.

That's my .02.

Mike

My bet: ISAF will choose a "new" design or a SMOD based on a boat sailing today, but in a slightly different dress-up (sailplan and perhaps some rigging).

They choose the 49er as a brand new design.

They choose the Tornado as the multi at the last evaluation, dressed up with a larger sailplan and double trapeze.


No worries

Personally, I feel the Olympic selection to be more of a danger to the Viper class then to us, the F16 class. But this is not me saying that the danger is very big to either of us.

For example, the Olympic sailors want a carbon mast and even very much so. That is allowed under F16 rules but the Viper class is still rooting for aluminium. While Aluminium is good in my personal opinion as a non-olympic sailor; it is isn't good enough for Olympic sailing. Or at least that is the rep. This implies the Viper class will become more F16 with the big O. selection. The very thing they appear to be avoiding by going SMOD at this moment.

That only leaves ready-to-sail weight as the only difference between SMOD Viper and the other F16's. How long till sufficient pressure is excerted by the Olympic sailors to drop in ready-to-sail weight especially since the other F16's are showing that it can be done without large costs ? In the past these sailors laid down 30.000 bucks for a boat where the Viper (and other F16's) is currently 16.000.

There is some financial room here for upgrades. Adding the carbon mast is on top of the list for sure !

Wouter

The reason why the Tornado class wanted to move to the carbon mast was because some teams were spending big $$$$ developing a better alloy stick. Remember, the T was a multi manufacture OD class meaning you could build any part of the T yourself. The alloy stick did not include tollerances for bend characteristics. The carbon mast was to be a very stricted OD mast which not only had to meet certain dimentions, but also bend charateristics. It was to be built only by Marstrom for the first 4 years until Marstom recouped it's investment in development, before being opened up to other manufactures.

The difference with the Viper is all mast come from the same supplier and you can not privatly develop one. If they choose a carbon mast, they will still need to be strict OD, far from what the F16 class is or ever will be.

This is why we need to be pushing for "sailing olympics". We have a Tornado/F18 sailor telling us what F16 can or should be.

If we had our own games, the boat would matter far less than the skill level.

Trying to promote "THE" olympic cat is divisive.

Hey Steve, why not include "F16" or "Taipan 4.9" in your signature now
And how about a write-up on your experiences on the Taipan4.9 (or is it a fully equipped F16 by now)?

We have beaten the alu mast extrusion discussion to death repeatedly earlier. Short summary, masts from even the same die will be different as the die is worn over time. Uniform bending characteristics comes, as you specify, from a tightly controlled OD mast design.

The olympic boat better be thightly, and I mean really thight, Marstrøm thight, one design. This is a big problem with manual labour! Even Laser sails are different as they are built with a manual process.


I see no big risks here

The Taipan is a great boat however I am missing the raw power of the T or F18.

Obvious differences Cat rigged are

- A little more flighty
- Cat rigged, harder to keep in the groove. Hit a wave bad and you can stop the boat.
- Can stop the boat really quick in a tack as you have less weight to keep the momentum up. Hit a wave the wrong way or not turn smooth enough, you can park it. The F18 and T you can really smash through a tack if needed.
- Heavy air gybing, don’t even try it if you don’t have the pace up (learnt this on Phil’s Blade ). Prepare well for the gybe and get your speed up or you are swimming. Once again the T and F18 don’t bite anywhere near as hard. If you have to crash gybe or slow gybe, then it is not much of issue.

I am also teaching the wife how to sail sloop rigged but have not taken her out over 7 knots so far. Days have either been light or heavy lately. If the wind blows, the wife and jib both stay on shore.

Looking forward to putting a spinnaker on it, however spare $$$$ are going elsewhere at the moment. When I do, hopefully some time next season, it will be sailed uni. A new main will come first though. The Taipan Cat rigged fleet in Victoria, Australia is very hot so I am looking and spending a fair bit of time sailing as such.

BTW, the wife won't let me call it Taipan ALIVE.......



Agreed, however what the top Tornado sailors were doing went well beyond looking for a stick with better quality / bend characteristics……. They were building their own (not available to the public) masts that were superior. This is why the Carbon stick had to come in for the Games. Many sailors without Olympic aspirations were very against the move as the ‘special’ alloy sticks would not have made much of a difference to their results; however the carbon stick will make a difference to their pockets……. But the class had to move to the carbon stick for the sake of the class’s reputation in the Games and the rest is history.

Stephen,

You'll notice the difference in sailing the Taipan in a blow when she is fitted with a spinnaker. It may still bite but not nearly as much and hard as without.

Wouter

That has been my experience even in the F18 and Tornado. The kite actually helps settle the boat down, down wind when it is blowing the numbers of your sail. Helps lift the bow, helps maintaing speed through a gybe and means you can get out on the wire and trap behind the rear beam shifting weight further aft.

What I find hardest about downwind sailing in strong winds is the transitions. Once setteled and possibly with the mainsail stalled out, it is fine. But getting there can be a pain.

Just dont get caught in breaking 5 meter waves..