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F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France.

Posted By: Helen (AHPC)

F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/23/11 12:33 AM

The F16 is showing it's versatility and gender equality with the Worlds Registrations showing all possible combinations.

ALL GIRLS TEAMS INCLUDE:
Sicouri Sisters - Lara & Silvia (ITA)
Van Helden Sisters - Christa & Marja (NED)
Carolijn Brouwer (BEL) & Liz Wardley (PNG)

ALL BOYS TEAMS INCLUDE:
Jason Waterhouse & Brett Goodall (AUS)
Emmanuel Le Chapelier & Alexandre Noiro (FRA)
Taylor Reiss & Matt Whitehead (USA)

MIXED TEAMS INCLUDE:
Darren Bundock (AUS) & Celene Van Dooren (NED)
Chris Sprout & Georgina Burke (GBR)
Raphael Sicouri (ITA) & Marcela Mingozzi (BRA)
Matt & Gina McDonald (USA)
Gill DeBryne & Kathleen Vandenbulcke (BEL)
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/23/11 09:36 AM

Almost no uni-rigs.
Posted By: DanTnz

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/23/11 12:31 PM

Is there any official news feeds from Bordeaux? Hopefully a few updates and photos will be posted here, so I can keep up while moving house!

Rolf - commiserations to you and your countrymen, horrific events there in Norway.
Posted By: DanTnz

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/23/11 02:07 PM

Found a full list on the Club Website:

http://www.cerclevoilebordeaux.com/globalF16/voirLesInscriptions.php?epreuveId=114986
Posted By: pgp

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/23/11 03:47 PM

Sorry about all the troubles at home. My best to you all.
Posted By: pgp

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/23/11 03:48 PM

Anyone doing commentary?
Posted By: Helen (AHPC)

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/23/11 10:57 PM

I am not over there this year, but am trying to find someone who can do either live feeds, or feed the info back to me... on the other side of the world.

For those on FACEBOOK, I will be keeping AHPC (Australian High Performance Catamarans) page as up to date as possible.

Today (Sat) was registration day at the F16 Worlds. The club also had a Long Distance Race which many of the F16's used as a Warm Up.

The full results can be found: Results of Transcat

Report from Greg Goodall:

"Had a good day on the water. The club had a long distance race so about 10 of the F16 joined in. We did ok as we hit the lead about 3/4 through the race. We got a bit lost trying to find the last mark just before the finish so ended up just behind Emmanuel Le Chapelier & Alexandre Noiro (FRANCE also on a VIPER). It was good fun with a really long downwind in 20knts and flat water. In these conditions we are easily as fast as the F18's. On a shorter, lighter boat it is a bit of a buzz."
Posted By: pgp

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/24/11 12:23 AM

Thanks.
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/24/11 11:02 PM

I thought Greg was going uni?
Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/24/11 11:05 PM

Not much wind predicted for the week, tomorrow is probably the best day.
Posted By: drew584

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/25/11 01:55 PM

Just in - Result of Race Two: 1. Brett Goodall; 2. Darren Bundock; 3. Reiss-Whitehead; 4. Caroline Brouwer; 5. Gregg Goodall....

Results of Race One: 1. Darren Bundock; 2 Reiss-Whitehead (1); 3. Brett Goodall; 4. Carolyn Brouwer; 5. Gregg Goodall. The Vipers killed that one!

stolen off of team intrepid facebook page (reiss and whitehead)

https://www.facebook.com/TeamIntrepid
Posted By: Helen (AHPC)

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/25/11 01:55 PM

Live feeds on the F16 Worlds now happening on AHPC (Australian High Performance Catamarans) facebook. Thanks to Catharina Whitehead.

Posted By: mikeborden

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/25/11 03:48 PM

ahhhh, crap...

My work blocks Facebook!

Can anyone do some updates here? smile
Posted By: Helen (AHPC)

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/25/11 03:59 PM

Three races over...
RACE 1 - 1. Darren Bundock; 2 Reiss-Whitehead (1); 3. Brett Goodall; 4. Carolyn Brouwer; 5. Greg Goodall.

RACE 2 - 1. Brett Goodall; 2. Darren Bundock; 3. Reiss-Whitehead; 4. Caroline Brouwer; 5. Greg Goodall

RACE 3 - TBC.... But I think Bundy 1 Brett 2 Greg 3 Caroline 4
Reiss & Matt had a capsize after the 1st mark.
Posted By: Helen (AHPC)

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/25/11 04:00 PM

That all the races for today.
According to Bundy's Twit, Vipers fill top 10 places.... Ouuuch!
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/25/11 05:05 PM

Modesty.
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/25/11 05:25 PM

Full list is here: http://www.cerclevoilebordeaux.com/globalF16/global_f16_g.htm

All marketing aside, where is the first corinthian team on the scoreboard?

First uni rig in 25th, second in 28th.

I root for the DNFs! Finishing before the time limit runs out with the likes of Bundy and Carolijn in the fleet is a hard target if you are new to cat racing smile
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/25/11 05:29 PM

Anyone know why Matt and Gina aren't sailing?
Posted By: sail7seas

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/25/11 05:35 PM

Results after 3 show M & G with a first race DNF?
http://www.cerclevoilebordeaux.com/globalF16/global_f16_g.htm
Posted By: mikeborden

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/25/11 05:54 PM

What were the conditions for the day?

Posted By: David Ingram

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/25/11 05:55 PM

Yes I saw that, I was hoping for a few more details. It sucks to go all that way and then end up sitting out the first day.
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/25/11 06:22 PM

From the twitter account of Kathleen and Gill:

Quote
Swiss Falcon mixing it up in the top 10 with the pro teams. Gina&Matt got hurt during the first race and retired. GBR at the edge of top 10.


Ref: http://twitter.com/#!/TheBoatShopBE
Posted By: mikeborden

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/25/11 06:55 PM

Originally Posted by Rolf_Nilsen
From the twitter account of Kathleen and Gill:
That's Andy Lutz, I'm guessing anyway. He's very good!


Mike
Quote
Swiss Falcon mixing it up in the top 10 with the pro teams. Gina&Matt got hurt during the first race and retired. GBR at the edge of top 10.


Ref: http://twitter.com/#!/TheBoatShopBE
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/26/11 01:40 AM

Originally Posted by mikeborden
What were the conditions for the day?



You can get the idea here, even if there is a freudian typo in the URL: http://catsailingnews.blogspot.com/2011/07/f18-worlds-2011-day-1-bundock-van.html
Posted By: F18arg

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/26/11 01:13 PM

Hey Rolf, just a little typo,'F18' 'F16' ... all the same... if Bundock is at the helm wink
Posted By: Kris Hathaway

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/26/11 01:38 PM

Can't blame Rolf. That is the address that CatSailingNews is using.
Posted By: F18arg

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/26/11 02:13 PM

I'm the one to blame. I'm just laughing at the url...
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/26/11 03:55 PM

Originally Posted by F18arg
I'm the one to blame. I'm just laughing at the url...


Like I wrote: Freudian typo smile
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/26/11 05:00 PM

Looks like they have three races in so far for day 2 (according to Team Intepid's update on Facebook). The conditions also look like they might be a bit challenging today. Anyone know more?
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/26/11 06:36 PM

Results are up and there is now a throwout.

It's a two boat race at the top!

http://www.cerclevoilebordeaux.com/regates/resultats-2011/global_f16_g.htm

The boys are making a nice showing for the US!
Posted By: Timbo

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/27/11 01:04 AM

Mixed and all female crews doing well too.

Anyone know what happened to Matt and G on day one? I saw they had a lot of DNF, DNS but then got an 8th in that last race?
Posted By: mikeborden

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/27/11 07:42 PM

Here are the results with today's races.

http://www.cerclevoilebordeaux.com/regates/resultats-2011/global_f16_g.htm
Posted By: mikeborden

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/27/11 07:44 PM

Any other news by chance? Since I can't get to Facebook at work? smile
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/27/11 07:51 PM

Not too much in the Facebook updates. Sounds like the boys are having a better day today getting to the top mark first and ending up in a 3 boat slugfest for the top.
Posted By: pgp

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/27/11 08:05 PM

Looks like Matt & Taylor were over early in the first race.



"Ok... Robbie Daniel is back on line with updates from Day 3 of the F16 Worlds
Race 1. 6- 8 kts. Just double trap!
Mark 1.
1 Bundy & Celene
2 Caroline & Klaas
3 Brett & Jason
4 Raphael & Marcella
5 Greg & Dominique
Taylor & Matt must have been over early as they have gone back.

8 hours ago · Like · Comment"


Posted By: jkkartz1

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/27/11 08:26 PM

Go Matt & Gina!

8 4 8 12

Posted By: David Ingram

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/27/11 08:27 PM

Anyone know how many drops will be applied? Drop every ?? races?
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/28/11 03:04 PM

For those without FB access at the office:

You need to read it from the bottom up and don't whine about it Timmy just read it.

1 Caroline
2 Greg
3 Reiss
...4 Bundy
5 ita
6 bra
7 BrettSee More

Race 3 another clean start

Race 2 Finish
1 bundy
2 Brett
3 Greg
4 Reiss
5 Matt + Gina

2nd up
1Bundy
2 Reiss
3 Brett
4 Matt
5 Greg

Race 2. Our boys had a very nice start! Mid line and took advantage of the sag. Great speed off the line. No OCS's.
Robbie going in to shore to drop some people on shore.
Hopefully Robbie will be back to see the finish!

Race 1
1Caroline
2 bundy
3Brett by a hair
4 Reiss
5ita797
Not sure about the rest

2nd up
1Caroline
2ita 797
3 Bundy
4reiss
5 Brett
6 gbr8
7 Matt+ Gina
8 bel 666
9 Greg


Ok after a postponement. A general recall.
Then the wind doing a big right shift. Then it came back left.
We get a start off under a black flag.
No OCS's.

Coming to the 1st mark.
Caroline worked mid left and will have a good lead.
2ita 797
3 along way back. Matt + Gina
4Bundy
5sui1
6 Brett
7Greg
8bra9
9fra1622
10fra1630
11 Reiss
Posted By: Timbo

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/28/11 03:18 PM

"You need to read it from the bottom up and don't whine about it Timmy just read it."

What did I say to deserve that?

Blow me Dave...

Hey, that sounds like a great name for my boat! BMD!
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/28/11 03:26 PM

Tell me you haven't done anything that deserves a boot in the nuts... gohead, tell me. Just because your mic wasn't on doesn't mean you didn't say it.
Posted By: Timbo

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/28/11 03:36 PM

Hey, if it's not on tape, it never happened!

The very first thing they taught us in the Air Force:

Deny, Deny, Deny. Point fingers and run away!
Posted By: pgp

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/28/11 03:48 PM

AHPC (Australian High Performance Catamarans)
Greg was back sailing 2 up...


Did Gregg sail uni on day 2?

http://www.cerclevoilebordeaux.com/regates/resultats-2011/global_f16_g.htm
Posted By: Jalani

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/28/11 05:22 PM

Yes, Dominique was sick.
Posted By: pgp

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/28/11 06:24 PM

The he had finishes of 14,20 and 18? I'm not sure how to interpret that.
Posted By: mikeborden

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/28/11 06:54 PM

I'd interpret that singlehanding the F16 is harder than doublehanding.

smile

Mike
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/28/11 07:37 PM

I bow to Gina and Matt!

Fantastic to see Andreas being consistent at that level!

Geert always impress me!


Posted By: pgp

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/28/11 08:21 PM

I doubt he practices uni very much. I think it's a pretty good showing.
Posted By: Helen (AHPC)

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/28/11 09:55 PM

Greg also did not have a cleat on the mainsheet... Which he would normally do if he was sailing Uni... He ran out of hands..
Posted By: Timbo

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/28/11 10:09 PM

Yeah, I can see where it would be a little busy with the spin sheet in one hand, main in the other and the tiller between your toes! To say nothing of launching, snuffing and gybing! Must have been quite a sight! Why no cleat on the mainsheet? Is this another one of your Aussie "Speed Tricks"? (that's a joke)
Posted By: pgp

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/28/11 10:12 PM

Good job!

I'd have gone on bikini patrol. No cleat on the main would have been undoable for me.

Posted By: TEH

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/28/11 10:29 PM

Looks like Matt and Gina started mixing it up starting in race 6.
Posted By: waynemarlow

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/29/11 08:52 AM

Originally Posted by mikeborden
I'd interpret that singlehanding the F16 is harder than doublehanding.

smile

Mike


Makes me feel a little better to see top sailors struggling to compete Uni against the dual handers, sorry can't see any excuses about having no Uni experiance as he is one of the top A class sailor in the world, my betting he simply ran on the main only AKA A Cat style.

Does prove the point that at some stage we will need to address the difference between the Uni's and duals both in racing terms and more urgently the handicap terms where the Uni rates faster.
Posted By: Helen (AHPC)

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/29/11 08:53 AM

Not sure if this is an AUSSIE trick, but Greg (and many of the A-Class or ex A-Class Sailors) prefers to sail with Centre Sheeting, and with no cleat on the main...

But I think Greg has acknowledged that the Viper being sailed Uni needs a cleat!! (Either that or he would have to acknowledge that AGE might be an issue!!)

This was his email message to me after Day 2:
"Well it was a hard day office sailing single handed. Dominique was still very sick this morning - no way she could sail so I decided at the last minute to take the jib off and sail one up. Glad it was not windy as I don't have a cleat on the main sheet and I was running out of hands. My results were pretty poor but I beat all the other cat boats in the last race."

Posted By: Tony_F18

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/29/11 09:26 AM

What is the average age of the worlds fleet? I'm thinking it has to be quite low with all the youth sailors.
Greg's crew is 15 so I'm guessing we have the youngest and oldest on the same boat smile
Posted By: mikeborden

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/29/11 02:42 PM

I know it's harder, but who is actually sailing the F16 singlehanded seriously.

What I mean by this..
1. Are they going out on the weekends practicing against another singlehander or better yet another two up boat.
2. Are they racing on a consistent basis singlehanding?

If I remember correctly, Hans won the the first Global Challenge as a singlehander. Looking at the results, he's not doing that well. Is it because the singlehanders are seriously handicaped, or is no one seriously enough as a singlehander anymore to stay in the top 10-15?

I wanted to add...

I sail UNI most of the time, and I try to do this, but it's very hard to do it.

Mike
Posted By: pgp

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/29/11 02:54 PM

I think the sloops have a clear advantage in winds over 10 knots. Still, I'd rather sail at a disadvantage than not sail at all. It isn't as if I'm missing out on any trophies. grin

I think there is a challenge. For someone who thinks they are a world class sailor, climbing to the top of the F16 world, uni, would be like climbing Everest.
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/29/11 03:08 PM

Originally Posted by pgp
I think the sloops have a clear advantage in winds over 10 knots. Still, I'd rather sail at a disadvantage than not sail at all. It isn't as if I'm missing out on any trophies. grin

I think there is a challenge. For someone who thinks they are a world class sailor, climbing to the top of the F16 world, uni, would be like climbing Everest.



I agree it is much harder to do well uni. I think it takes more practice, a slightly different setup, and it certainly takes more strength / endurance. I'd like to see some talent try it. Greg is obviously accomplished, but was handicapped by not having a cleat. Plus, it's not something you can justnjump into and expect to do well.

I think the potential is there, it just takes more to get there.
Posted By: pgp

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/29/11 03:36 PM

"strength / endurance"

That and it takes a lot more skill and understanding, imo. Having an extra pair of eyes makes it easier to pick up shifts, judge laylines and watch for traffic. With only two eyes you would have to really, really know the game to finish near the top.
Posted By: Timbo

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/29/11 05:16 PM

That's why the next Alter Cup should be sailed on F16's Uni! (I'm kidding, don't go gettn' your panties in a wad again Ding)

But I would like to have the past F16 AC winners (JC, Robie D, etc.) go out and race against each other Uni for a day and report back to us -punters- on what might be a faster setup, rigging and trim wise.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/29/11 06:18 PM

Quote
Does prove the point that at some stage we will need to address the difference between the Uni's and duals both in racing terms and more urgently the handicap terms where the Uni rates faster.


How hard a boat is to sail... has NOTHING to do with a measurement rating.

All you can say is.. Wow... it is damn hard to sail this boat to it's rating in order to beat X who has an easier time sailing his boat to it's rating. Handicap racing sucks (for Ding!)

You could get a bit of data for a PN type rating.. but this is a weak data set with only three uni's.

The PHRF debate to come up with a rating would be ugly!!! (well Greg G is a very good A class sailor and look at how he did compared to xxx... but oh... he had no cleat... ughhhh)

With regard to racing... It comes down to asking the double handed sailors if its really a level playing field for them when you mix in a few singlehanders trying to manage their boat in the turns. Are the single handers really racing the double handers, or are the games quite a bit different.

The real surprise is that the number of single handed racers who want to race with the spin in the world is surprisingly small. (NF17 and F16 unis probably don't add up to 25 at all Continentals 's over the last couple of years.)





Posted By: pgp

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/29/11 06:25 PM

"The real surprise is that the number of single handed racers who want to race with the spin in the world is surprisingly small. (NF17 and F16 unis probably don't add up to 25 at all Continentals 's over the last couple of years.)"

Good. That puts me right where I need to be.
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/29/11 06:45 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider

The real surprise is that the number of single handed racers who want to race with the spin in the world is surprisingly small. (NF17 and F16 unis probably don't add up to 25 at all Continentals 's over the last couple of years.)



What surprises me is the magnitude and emphasize sailors put on racing.
Posted By: pgp

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/29/11 06:51 PM

Racing skills can get you out of trouble or just make your life easier. The only way to gain those skills is to race.

Case in point, I've used speed to avoid serious thunderstorms on many occassions. Getting back home under the resulting light air requires skill. Unless you want to get back at midnight, parched and bug eaten.
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/29/11 06:57 PM

Originally Posted by pgp
Racing skills can get you out of trouble or just make your life easier. The only way to gain those skills is to race.

Case in point, I've used speed to avoid serious thunderstorms on many occassions. Getting back home under the resulting light air requires skill. Unless you want to get back at midnight, parched and bug eaten.


I feel pretty confident that I learned most of my sailing skills on the water at home, training. Including long evenings in the dark with no drinking water and no wind smile


Posted By: Timbo

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/29/11 06:58 PM

Originally Posted by Rolf_Nilsen
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider

The real surprise is that the number of single handed racers who want to race with the spin in the world is surprisingly small. (NF17 and F16 unis probably don't add up to 25 at all Continentals 's over the last couple of years.)




What surprises me is the magnitude and emphasize sailors put on racing.


That's a great point Rolf, I only got into racing to "Learn to sail Faster" in the first place, but once in, I found it quite addicting.

I just can't get the same kind of adrenaline rush out of putzing around alone, even in big air, as I do when rounding marks in big air, with spin boats coming in from all directions! I don't really care about who wins, as long as I learn something.

And there is the social aspect at the keg afterwards, that's half the fun!
Posted By: Karl_Brogger

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/29/11 07:01 PM

I've been on the water sailing about 30 days this year. 5 of those didn't involve racing or training. Four of those were ferrying the alternate boat for the alter cup, the other was on a local lake in which the yacht club had a course set for the leaners and I still did two legs for fun.

For some of us sailing doesn't hold much value without competition.
Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/29/11 07:07 PM

I think racing can be good fun, but I dont put much value into it, or the scoreboard. Perhaps best put any discussiong like this in its own thread so as to not ruin the Worlds thread.


Posted By: Timbo

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/29/11 07:09 PM

Where I grew up (coastal New Hampshire) there were great places to "Cruise" to, up the Maine coast. I wanted to do that when I first got into sailing. Heck, I would STILL love to do that, I just can't afford to do that!

In the mean time, learning to go fast on something small (ie. our racing boats) will suffice. I would love to charter a big Gunbaot and do the Monhegan Island race though...and then cruise after the race is over!

(are you out there Pete Johnstone?? Need crew??)
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/29/11 07:18 PM

Rolf... your perception is that racing is the focus..

I would say... racing is the focus of racing sailors and gets talked about here. If we don't all agree on what the game is, when and where ... there is no race.

Many sailors don't race and have no reason to belong to a community that talks about sailing at all. The vast majority of sailors do there own thing... at what ever level of proficiency they want.... and don't want to share anything about it. We have three new Hobie 16 Getaways at the club in the last two years (which matches up to the 3 new F16's). They do there own thing and don't sail with other boats.


Posted By: Rolf_Nilsen

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/29/11 07:23 PM

No way Mark.

Define a racing sailor for me please.

Then explain to me why the catsailor.com forums are for racers.


But please do so in its own thread. I'll stop diverting this thread which is about the worlds.

(PS: If you want to know about my perception.. Just ask instead of guessing. )

Posted By: David Ingram

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/29/11 07:52 PM

It's over. Looks like Taylor and Matt took third.

Some interesting commentary from the last race from Team Intrepid on FB.

Just received this detailed report from Robbie detailing the start of the last race: I finally have a minute to tell you about the start! What a start! Caroline the boys and 2 others fighting for the pin. About a minute to go the wind shifted left and the boys were not going to make the line. So they gibe around, come in on port and try again. Same spot. Caroline managed to hold her spot well.
The boys came in underneath. The wind shifted left even more now and neither one of them are going to make it. The guys gyb around again. The gun goes off
And the guys come thru on port tack 2 stringing, just ripping! Go about 50 yards and tack right on top of the whole fleet. Poor Caroline is over early in irons.
She backs up and clears her self and gets going about 20- 30 seconds late.
Holy cow. I have the whole thing on video!


Posted By: ksurfer2

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/29/11 07:55 PM

Nice job boys!!!!!!
Posted By: Timbo

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/29/11 09:22 PM

I'm amazed there was room at the pin to spin around...twice, and still get a good start!
Posted By: David Ingram

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/29/11 10:12 PM

Originally Posted by Timbo
I'm amazed there was room at the pin to spin around...twice, and still get a good start!


When you have total boat control and total confidence in that control you'll be surprised what you can do with just in a very confined area. Practice and training pays, and that is just a small part of separates the top of the fleet from the rest of us! The boys have skills! How many of us practice just such a maneuver?

Kudo's gentlemen!

BTW, I'm not calling them the dudes! I'm twice their age and I'll call them boys for the rest of my days! :-)

http://www.cerclevoilebordeaux.com/regates/resultats-2011/global_f16_g.htm
Posted By: Timbo

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/30/11 12:32 AM

You wish you were only twice their age, unless you are adding them together, then twice that, yeah, maybe...


Re. my earlier comment about having enough room, with a tough fleet of champions like there were there, I am surprised some one else wasn't alrady there with them.

Maybe there was a big crowd of the top guys at the boat and the kids slipped down to the pin, unnoticed? Must have been a heck of a left shift!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/30/11 02:32 AM

Originally Posted by mikeborden
I know it's harder, but who is actually sailing the F16 singlehanded seriously.

What I mean by this..
1. Are they going out on the weekends practicing against another singlehander or better yet another two up boat.
2. Are they racing on a consistent basis singlehanding?


Yes on #2, but only occasionally on #1 - the latter mainly for logistical reasons. It's just difficult to get to the lake and get set up/break down for one day at a time. So I end up mostly sailing at regattas. I've done a little bit of training in the past couple of years with other F16s (Dan Feldman, Tom Hoscheidt), and a little this year with some non-F16 teams.

Sailing singlehanded is hard work and I regularly embarrass myself, but it doesn't stop me from loving it.
Posted By: pgp

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/30/11 04:54 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=c_NOzqfhfPY

This doesn't seem quite so difficult, what's the difference?
Posted By: waynemarlow

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/30/11 09:41 AM

Originally Posted by MarkMT
Originally Posted by mikeborden
I know it's harder, but who is actually sailing the F16 singlehanded seriously.

What I mean by this..
1. Are they going out on the weekends practicing against another singlehander or better yet another two up boat.
2. Are they racing on a consistent basis singlehanding?


Yes on #2, but only occasionally on #1 - the latter mainly for logistical reasons. It's just difficult to get to the lake and get set up/break down for one day at a time. So I end up mostly sailing at regattas. I've done a little bit of training in the past couple of years with other F16s (Dan Feldman, Tom Hoscheidt), and a little this year with some non-F16 teams.

Sailing singlehanded is hard work and I regularly embarrass myself, but it doesn't stop me from loving it.


We have to ask ourselves why the single handed fleet is not expanding as it would seem in time constrained work and family situations, more people should be sailing single handed for conveniance factors.

The F16 fleet at Datchet, which numbered 11 at one stage, has now totally disbanded, most going to other classes, some retiring from sailing burnout, others to other forms of sailing. Now as one of the first big fleets of F16's and almost entirely of singlehanders we would have to ask why such a fleet should disband in only few years.

Everyone seemed to enjoy the boats, probably 8 or 9 boats were regular active racers, not always at the same time, but the fleet was active. So why did it breakup so quickly. Here in the UK we operate on the SCHRS handicap system which rates the single handed F16 faster than both the 20ft Hurricane 5.9 with its modern square top main, jib and spinny and the F18s being only just slower than the Tornado.

Why did the Datchet F16 fleet disband and the sailors move to other classes, it was a no brainer really. One thing for certain it wasn't the boats.
Posted By: TEH

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/30/11 01:25 PM

+1 on the "regularly embarass myself" sailing solo. Still, racing 5-6 regattas a summer has helped me to focus and pick up sailing skills that I never would have sailing on my own.

I would like to see some of the top guys sail 1-up in competition.

There will be some solo sailors at the U.S. Nationals this year.
Posted By: pgp

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/30/11 01:28 PM

I asked a "top guy" once and he said he just didn't think he'd be as efficient as he would with crew.

An extra set of eyeballs really come in handy.
Posted By: Timbo

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/30/11 02:16 PM

So...it was the rating? Did they regularly race as one fleet, alone, or were the being scored with all the other boats you mentioned?

Over here, at least in FL, if we have 5 or more of ...anything, they get scored as their own fleet, vs. all mixed together, except at the Alter Cup Qualifier events, where all the different classes are racing against each other on handicap, to determine who gets the slots.
Posted By: Timbo

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/30/11 02:19 PM

Originally Posted by pgp
I asked a "top guy" once and he said he just didn't think he'd be as efficient as he would with crew.

An extra set of eyeballs really come in handy.



There is no doubt 4 hands are more efficient than two, when you have a spinnaker to deal with. And the extra eyeballs helps too, but if you can't find good, reliable crew, then what?
Posted By: pgp

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/30/11 02:32 PM

Sail what you have. I'm happy!
Posted By: Timbo

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/30/11 02:48 PM

That's why I got into the F16 class, crew is optional, not required, for racing. With good crew there is no doubt I go faster than without, when it's blowing over about 10, but since good crew is hard to find, it's nice to have the -no crew- option. And if you are at a big regatta and your crew gets sick for a day or two, you can still race, like Greg Goodall at Worlds, right? It's all good.
Posted By: waynemarlow

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/30/11 03:39 PM

Originally Posted by Timbo
So...it was the rating? Did they regularly race as one fleet, alone, or were the being scored with all the other boats you mentioned?


Single catamaran start on Sundays ranging from Dart 16's to Nacra 20's, doesn't seem to matter as most cats are pretty nifty off the line, . Wednesdays eves is fun racing, it can be 30+ boats ranging from lasers to Nacra 20's and Tornados. It can be entertaining to say the least on the start line with the 10 slowest boats all lined across the start line at 0 speed ready to go with the other 20 all baring down on the line at speed, yes we do have some shouting and whinging about tactics at the time, but its all done with great aplomb and little bickering afterwards as we tuck into a good supper and a beer, its a good night out and more should try the social racing.
Posted By: Mark Schneider

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/30/11 04:17 PM

Quote
Everyone seemed to enjoy the boats, probably 8 or 9 boats were regular active racers, not always at the same time, but the fleet was active. So why did it breakup so quickly.


Wayne, My theory... having watched the F17 US fleet do the same thing as your Dachet fleet.. not to mention a few A class fleets melt away....

There is nothing social about racing single handed... It is all about you and making your boat go... and then sailing against your competitors on the course. It tends to be a dick forest on the beach as well. The only shared experience of the sailors is often the racing on the course... 10 boats is still 10 guys hanging at the keg. That gets old as well.

The long term successful fleets tend to have a goal that the class members are working toward. EG... success at the Continentals or Worlds or at the big club regatta on Labor Day... whatever... Without a personal goal that is also shared by enough of your buddies... you are basically just sailing in circles and then they confirm the local pecking order at the end of the racing weekend with the score sheet. After a few regattas... the pecking order is now set in stone and now the question becomes... how do I move up? why is this fun?

The answer of course is a mix of practice, knowledge, talent and hardware and the match of you and your boat to local racing scene. (Money and time are important as well but not much point discussing these issues) When you get a group of diverse individuals working towards something who also want to have fun... it all hangs together.

So... for single handed sailors...
Practicing is lonely.... Unless you find tuning partners aiming for the same goal... Practicing get's old and rather quickly too.

Knowledge... Sailing single handed is the ultimate school of hard knocks way of learning how to race boats. You have to see Sail shape that is correct and it changes with time as the sail stretches.. You have to learn how to recognize the significant shifts. Half the time... you have no idea what happened and that is either frustrating (you will quit soon) or challenging (you will work at it) Bottom line... it's a tough game to learn on your own.

Talent, Well, God deals this out. Still, a great deal of fun can be had with ordinary talent.

Hardware, well for obvious reasons.... hardware becomes the easy solution... more and better will certainly keep life interesting for a little bit of time....

The match... If the fleet sails Hobie 16's and you have a NF20... The 5 laps around the short course for you will not be fun.

If your club thinks that 4 and 1/2 hours of racing in 12 to 15 is the standard of fun.... Your 50 year old butt will be out of gas after two, maybe three races... and it will be no fun for races 3 and 4.... The match is important. Wayne mentions SCHRS ratings..... And this is another match issue.... if the F18's are easy to sail to their rating and your F16uni is 40% more difficult, Your twin on the F18 will win by a mile...but that is the weekend racing scene so this is not a good match. (Now, If your goal was to do well at the Continentals.... well you could use the weekend regattas as just the practice needed to get to the Big event...)

So... I think that a single handed fleet needs real buy in...of each individual and the group to a set of racing goals.. no matter how modest... Equally important... you need to have a shared commitment for everyone to be learning more about sailboat racing your single hander.... IE. Tuning partner, Debriefs, Clinics, Coaching.

When you half butt these foundations... the fleet melts way. The pecking order is set in stone... the fun factor drops and the reasons to show up decrease.

The same core discussion was just on a SA thread on the A class. Itaxx suggested that A Class Development was a problem....just as Wayne suggests SCHRS ratings are a problem. GBR made the counter argument to Ita for development in the A class.

A final observation unique to A class is that the A class tends to attract very accomplished sailors who can hop on a boat and ratchet to the top of the pecking order in short order... They already have enough knowledge and talent to play the game... An average sailor from a less technical class will hop in not understanding the class culture and the nature of RACING single handed and he will be looking at a mountain of knowledge to acquire and little obvious way to get it.

The 505 class understands these dynamics and so they are really strong on getting you to play the 505 game... and if you burn out or loose interest... SELL YOUR BOAT pronto to somebody who wants to play

The Soling class tells new sailors... It will take you 10 years to get up to speed with the old guard... BUT they will be with you every step of the way.

Single handed classes are a real challenge because you just can't get GAsby to hop on your boat and show you what to look at or do.

As always... Your mileage may vary.
Posted By: mikeborden

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/30/11 04:53 PM

Mark,
I know you don't know me and sometimes I don't agree with you, but this is probably the smartest and wisest post I have seen anyone make on this board. You just went up a point or two in my portfolio of stocks!

Read it and whep, I think mark has hit the nail on the head.

Mike
Posted By: waynemarlow

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/30/11 06:13 PM

Interesting and I do agree with what you say, but the racing scene is very fragile and the minute something comes out of kilter whether that be your drinking buddies no longer want to come out to play because they have 3 rugrats or their boat no longer excites them, then that one catalyst can cause quite a ripple in a very small pond.

I think the SCHRS issue with us was just a very small issue which should have been resolved with the amount of discussion that has been going on for some time with the SCHRS technical committee in the back ground. But that one issue then focused everyone in the fleet to actually ask whether they wanted to continue sailing or not. They voted with their feet and took the easy option of moving on ( yes I too was guilty ).

Is there a moral to this story, not really, lifes to short to over duly worry about these things and the new class I joined is a real steep and interesting learning curve.

I am wondering as this has edged so far off topic whether we should move it to a thread all of its own ?
Posted By: scooby_simon

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/30/11 07:07 PM

Originally Posted by waynemarlow
Originally Posted by mikeborden
I'd interpret that singlehanding the F16 is harder than doublehanding.

smile

Mike


Makes me feel a little better to see top sailors struggling to compete Uni against the dual handers, sorry can't see any excuses about having no Uni experiance as he is one of the top A class sailor in the world, my betting he simply ran on the main only AKA A Cat style.

Does prove the point that at some stage we will need to address the difference between the Uni's and duals both in racing terms and more urgently the handicap terms where the Uni rates faster.


Wayne; I have sent some feedback to the SCHRS group regarding the worlds results. I agree that something needs to be done now. Perhaps you could summarize your comments and send then in to Nick / William as well?

I wrote a white paper some time ago that has been "in the system" for a while (Submitted August 2010) proposing changes to the way single handed boats were rated.


Posted By: pgp

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 07/31/11 02:18 PM

http://catsailingnews.blogspot.com/search?updated-min=2011-01-01T00%3A00%3A00-03%3A00&updated-max=2012-01-01T00%3A00%3A00-03%3A00&max-results=50

Bundock talks about weight and women sailing the F16.
Posted By: Hans_Ned_111

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 08/02/11 02:42 PM

After getting back ( finally arrived in Holland after the car broke down) we where happy to see the Worlds as it was organised. Well done by the CVB .
I just did read about the one up against two up. Well what i can say is that the one up,s have almost no change to beat the 2 up's anymore, the performance between the 2 is so much difference that you only have a change 1 up below 8 knots otherwise the handling of the 2 up's is so much quicker with the spin that you always will loose this. I did sail at the Worlds for the first time this year the F16 Raptor ( no time because of the A project ) and it was going quite well but i found out the boat handling was not that automatic. This resulted in 2 capsizes in race 2 and a DNF in that race. The wind was almost everyday above 10 knots and this is the wind the 2 up's are favorite.
It was challeging to sail on MAubissan and difficult with all the gusts but overall personally i was not unpleased with the results sailed with almost no hours on the boat.
Up to the next event.

Hans
Posted By: pgp

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 08/02/11 02:45 PM

Well done!
Posted By: Kathleen

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 08/03/11 02:10 PM

Back! It was a great event, we had a lot of fun and enjoyed the sailing and the people. I did a (little) write up on the event here: Falcon BEL666 blog

Can't wait for the next Worlds!

Posted By: Timbo

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 08/03/11 02:55 PM

Great write-up Kathleen! Thanks for doing that, great pictures too, I'll be waiting for the video.
Posted By: pgp

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 08/03/11 03:51 PM

Thanks Kathleen, very nice. I'm really looking forward to the movie.

Cheers!
Posted By: Gilo

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 08/03/11 10:06 PM

Here's the movie, shot with my phone!

Falcons having fun at Bordeaux - movie

Enjoy
Posted By: pgp

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 08/03/11 10:34 PM

Very nice, thanks!
Posted By: Aido

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 08/04/11 06:40 AM

Nice video Gill. The music makes it. I like the look of the Glaser kites too.
Posted By: Timbo

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 08/04/11 10:48 PM

Nice job Gilo, did you say you shot that with your Phone? How did you keep it dry? Was it in one of thos baggie things?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: F16 World Titles in Bordeaux France. - 08/05/11 12:50 PM

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider

There is nothing social about racing single handed... It is all about you and making your boat go... and then sailing against your competitors on the course. It tends to be a dick forest on the beach as well. The only shared experience of the sailors is often the racing on the course... 10 boats is still 10 guys hanging at the keg. That gets old as well.

While there may be merit in some of your other comments, I think this is a huge generalization. I sail almost exclusively singlehanded, I love it and I find the whole experience extremely social - in fact that is a very large part of why I enjoy racing so much. But then I sail with CRAW, which is an extremely sociable, family oriented club. It's also helpful having other singlehanders in the club - Tom and I for example are at roughly similar levels of ability and we regularly discuss our performance and what we think is or isn't working for us.
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