wings

I'm thinking about modfying my Blade to accept a set of wings. I don't trapeze when I'm off shore alone and I think the wings would make the boat a little safer.

Do you suppose a set of H17 wings would work?

Do you think that trapezing is not safe? I think it is just a mental thing. I guess we are talking trapezing upwind, not downwind.

Not when you're off shore alone.

For some reason I've had trap wires fail twice in the last few months, still trying to figure that out.

The only way to get H17 wings to work would be to put 2 big holes in each hull! They "plug" into those "sockets" in the hull- what would work better is either a set of NACRA wings (these were a cruising option and plugged into the beams) or TheMightyHobie18 Magnum wings- which attach at the beams. Either will require modification (I suspect unless the NACRA beams just happen to be the right length).

Kirt

Thanks.

I looked into this for my old N6.0, I couldn't get hold of the stock wings and so was going to build some to turn it into the ultimate med cruiser when I was out in Cyprus. I moved to Germany before I could make it and sold the boat.

The design I was going to make required long teflon inserts into the beam ends (which I was going to lathe up) with a hole milled through the centre to take the wing insert. The wing itself was going to be similar to the Hobie Tiger wings:

http://www.hobie-cat.net/download/catalogue/gb/wings.pdf

Which I think are a fairly good design, although you need to keep the boat flat to stop the lee wing dragging -esp in waves.

"Wave drag" is a concern!

Some years ago, we sailed a TheMightyHobie18 with wings from time to time. I liked the boat and the fact that you could trap from the wings or just sit their side by side in strong winds and feel safe. At some point I asked myself, what will happen if we let fly a hull too high, not even capsize. I would slip down of the wings, because my feet are not locked on a foot rail, fall down two and a half meter on the other wing - a solid metal tube, not nice. It just gave us wrong feeling of security. On the other side while trapping you are thethered to the boat. I lost more than once my stand in the trapez, but I never un-hooked. The trapez prevents you also to fall on the wrong side of the boat after capsize. My personal view is that one should always be locked to the boat, by the wire or footstrap or whatever, off-shore as in-shore. Must get a habbit like wearing a vest.


Maintain always your boat, check your rigging regulary. If your trap wires fail, you should ask yourself which wire will fail next, so I would say at least check the wires, if not replace them. Where did it fail? Wire or shackle? Maybe you should change the shop who made it. Maybe you need stronger material or gauge.

Cheers,

Klaus

The failure was on the rope part and showed little wear prior to failure. The failures occurred after changing a system I'd used for many years so I've gone back to the proven system. And a stronger line!

I've owned both a H-18 magnum and H-17 and enjoyed trapping off the wings but agree, it is a long way to fall. I found the wings most useful late in the day as fatigue set in.

I always wear a vest.

Definitely should review the line that you are using. I made the mistake of using a very strong line that had a core which did not stretch. When running through a small block or tight bend, the core fibers would tear all at once because it could not hold up to the repeated forces imparted by the different inner and outer radiuses. Fatigue would develop and the line would just snap without any warning. Gone back to Dyneema without any failures.

That sounds like what happened to me. Are you using a small block or just running through a thimble?

Here's what I use:



The only difference with the current setup I'm using is I make an aluminum stopper instead of the UMHW one. Just like anything they do break. I used to luggage tag the sister clip on, but I think it wears better if you just splice it on there.

Like anything they need to be inspected for wear. I had one break last weekend that I knew wasn't long for this world, and I ended up swimming and losing the dog bone for my lack of action.

Thanks Karl. The last failure showed minimal wear, it had about 15 hours on it. It was a cored line and sheath showed just a little fuzzing. I had recently gone back to the black rope lock. Still haven't figured it out. But I've stopped using the rope lock.

Those little black rope locks pictured above cost me 2 DNF's at the Nataionals in Gulfport. The problem I had was the line was being pinched between the black ropelock and the tiny bullet block. Twice it cut through my (new) trap line and I went for a swim, then had to go to the beach to replace the trap line.

My fix was to;

1. get rid of the rope lock in favor of the little balls with the hole in the middle and
2. get rid of the little bullet block below the handle, just go with the thimble.

The drawback is, with the little stopper ball and figure 8 knot, it takes longer to adjust the line length if you ever need to move the ball. But at least the line doesn't chafe or get pinched against the little bullet block edges like it did with the little black ones.

I usually sail solo so I don't adjust mine very often, the crew trap gets addjusted only when taking on a new crew. My skipper line stays pretty much the same, the knot is so tight now I doubt if I could get it open anyway without using needle nose plyers.

I put the black ones on my kid's Hobie 14 which only has the thimbles, no turning blocks and I have not seen any chafe there yet, but it doesn't get used nearly as much.

Thanks Tim. I'm sure that's what happened to me.

One day I am going to open a webshop with sailing parts and setups I can vouch for..

I weight in at 100kgs (220lbs) and know a bit about breakages. On our trapeze setup we progressed from self-tightening setups with uhmw stopper balls, ball bearing blocks and 2-4mm dynema line. Things kept on breaking!
We went through non-ball bearing blocks, heftier stopper balls etc. until we ended up with some pretty hefty steel cheeked blocks. Stitched stopper knots instead of uhmw stopping balls (the uhmw kept on breaking!) etc.

I think trapeze setups see quite high shock loads and unusual directions of load. Keeping it very simple and robust is my philosophy

The biggest issue is making sure the line isn't getting pinched anywhere. Not having knots is a good thing as well.


As far as wings go.... I had the skiff style wings on my FXone. I didn't like them for racing, but rec sailing they were kinda nice. Trapping off of them sucked just like any other wing, you can't get yourself really low like you can when you are dropping yourself off the edge of the hull. Once your but is over the rail, there isn't anything there to stop it. I managed once to end up with both legs in the air, upside down hanging on the wing while trying to get back on and keep it flying a hull. Hilarious, but slow....
My wings you had to be flying the hull pretty high to make them drag, the rudder had to be clear of the water before there was any noticeable impact of them dragging.

Don't want to be the backseat driver, but...
It looks like a Harken micro block. Harken quotes a maximum safe working load of 100kg. I guess other manufacturers have similar loads. Add some shockloading to it and it will fail...
The splices are not stitched or locked otherwise. If unloaded (e.g. if you grab the handle), they can open easily.

I use basically the clamcleat setup, but don't have the lower block. It works on the loop without block. The chock cord (not in the picture) run from the loop through a small block at the cleat back to the boat, keeping it always under tension. The adjustable line is something 6 or 8mm strong. The trapez line is 3mm covered dynema. I don't try to safe weight in the load carrying part of the trapez. It doesn't look slick too. I had never a failure with the trapez and I don't want to have it.

Cheers,

Klaus

Hi Klaus:

A lot of people use your system and seem to like it.

I was not aware of the 100 kilogram load limit on the block. Since I weigh 105 kilograms, that may well be part of the problem.

Thanks!

Unlike Karl's setup in the pic, I've extended the block a few inches below the handle (acutally I've moved the handle higher). Despite making sure to soundly secure my glove's cuff, too many times I've had it get caught in the block. I did not want to tape the glove on for safety reasons.

You don't need to worry about the cuffs if you don't use the handle when you go out!

Mike

Its a 16mm Harken 404 block, SWL is 250-lbs, breaking load is 1200-lbs. I've been using the same set of trap lines for two seasons, what fails is where it connects to the sister clip and the stopper pinches it. That's where I used to luggage tag it on there and have since just started putting in a splice. There's a lot less exposed on the sister clip with just a eye splice there. So far its worked out I have to replace the return part about once a season.




They are stitched, I just do it real sneaky like.



(edit)- To each there own on the adjustable setup. I don't care for them, that's why I use the dogbones so you still have a hi/low setting.

I have Karl's rig and used it for two seasons now without incident. I do hope I have the 16mm blocks as I am over the 100KG limit.

I did have one line fray near the aluminum stopper because it gets dug into by the block and forms little saw-like grooves.

Karl, you'll need to show me the sneaky stitch as I went to spliced lines and they are not currently stiched.

Ha! How about when you come in? Going out, it is reflex especially in a race with wind where you are trapping right away after the tack. Last week, I was glad because I found myself hiked out but not hooked in while skippering. As crew, some will "trap out" and then clip in. I think there is footage from the Racine event illustrating that technique.

You got me there...I do have to use it when coming in.

Mike

When you are coming in the stopper is tight to the block or thimble. I'm not sure I've gotten a glove caught going in. It's always when I'm doing thqt in/out crap in lighter, almost trapping conditions.

For me the glove gets stuck in the up and down wind. You start to go in....pull on the handle, before you get all the way in, the wind builds you go out with hand still on the handle...glove gets caught.

I was thinking something like this.

I’m interested Pete. Until I got into the larger air I felt like wings were “sissy” but now realize that I would be able to get some ballast out toward the windward when trapping would mean having my feet washed off the side of the boat, leading to a certain capsize.

Also, after a capsize, the boat wouldn’t be able to be blown away from me, if it had a trampoline on the wings.

In DanTnz’s link, (http://www.hobie-cat.net/download/catalogue/gb/wings.pdf) there was a third option which wasn’t pictured. 3. Classic Wings
Similar to the Hobie 18 Magnum wings with near armchair
comfort, sitting high and dry or trapezing near outer space !
Wings are bolted onto the crossbars and can be easily
removed or folded up and out of the way. Maximum beam
120cm (48"), weight of kit 26.2kg (57.64lbs).

I’m wondering if the “bolted on to cross bars” could be modified to work our boats?

I suppose you could modify anything.

My thought was to have them slide into the cross bars.

I think of them as forming a sort of ****. I'm no longer willing to dangle my body off the boat unless there is someone designated to pick me up.

btw- what's with the epoxy bottoms?

Epoxy w/ S-glass bottoms came about because of the sailing conditions in New Mexico. The lake shores I mostly sail are a mix of mud and rocks, rocks of varying size and usually not too visible. There is a lake at the south end of the state which is mostly sandy but there are always the old campfire places which are generally a ring of rocks and because the lake levels are not stable the old fire pits become a nuisance. Also, coming ashore in 20 plus MPH wind single handed is a bit much for me at 150 lbs.

I don’t regret for a minute doing the modification because my hulls are so tough, easily tougher than H18s and in some instances tougher than H16s. I haven’t had to repair a single ding to the epoxy s-glass bottoms, all that happens is that the paint gets scraped off.

Individually, I think the hulls are a lot stouter, less twisting and bending.

I may try that.

Pepin taught me a neat trick. When coming to shore downwind, make a pass at the beach, when you're directly up wind of the place you want to land, come head to wind. Once the boat stops pull up the foils, ease the sheets and stand as far forward as possible to lift the transoms out of the water. You'll drift down to the spot you chose with perfect control and no drama.

I like the sounds of that, I’m going to give that a try.

That's basically what I do, but I don't ease the sheets. When they are tight the boat will weather vane and resist's rotating. I get all the way to the bridle and ride it in.

Karl, probably a dumb question, but does that mean you startle one of the hulls at the bridle?

Well, Karl is startling! I stand at he bridle and hold on to the forestay.

Oh cra*, even when i look up the words I get them wrong. I meant 'straddle'.

I stand. If you're sitting with a leg on both sides you are in a bit of an awkward position if you need to do something urgently.