Seeking expressions of interest

The next Australian Taipan Championships are to be held at Lake Cootharaba, Queensland, starting 1st January 2005. The organising committee is seeking expressions of interest from F16 owners (taipan, mosquito, blade etc) in the holding of an unofficial F16 nationals prior to the Taipan nationals.

It is envisaged that the series would consist of 6 heats over 2 to 3 days using the standard championship windward and return course.

You can respond to the TCAA Secretary, Dave Elliott at [email]cccltd@tpg.com.au.[/email]



Phil Edwards
TCAA President

Phil,
That is a very good idea.
I've made some enquiries to see how this would fit in with the Mosquitos.
It seems the Mossies will be in South Australia for their Nationals.

Given the concentration of Mossie F16 sailors is down south an alternate suggestion could be to hold a Qld F16 State Titles. In the tradition of the NSW and soon to be run Victorian States the QLD States would take competitors from other states and it would not have to be won by a Queenslander. (Personally I think if won by someone from another state it should be defended by them on Qld waters). It could make for a very interesting event.

We could possibly plan a Nationals that everyone could attend the following year or during 2005.

Regards,
Phill

Hi Phil and Dave

First let me say, I'm very interested in being apart of the inaugural Australian F16 Nationals.

Let me also say that is encouraging to see the Taipans talking F16 out in the open again.

Although I'm not sure tacking a few days onto the Taipan Nationals is going about it the right way.

Firstly I notice the word unoffical. There is no reason why they need to be unoffical. Like any other Championship, due procedure should be followed. Liaising with Australia's F16 representive, Phill Brander could bring togeather an OFFICIAL titles. I think I would be much more inclined to attend if they were indeed the Offical Championships.

Secondly, the other classes need to be consulted. The Mosquitos also hold their Nationals in January, and I believe they are in South Australia next year. Logistcally difficult, if not impossible. As for my Blade, input is the best I can achieve. And by the way, bring on the Alpha Omega.

Thirdly, having holidayed in the Noosa area twice at that time of year, I believe the logistics of trying to arrange extra accomadation at that time of year, to say the least would be difficult.


My ideas on a F16 format are:
Hold State and Nationals at existing regattas to start off with. Just like the F18s did at Forster. I would also like to see some of the struggling clubs get the nod over the more fancied clubs.

As for more regular meetings of the classes, well that's another story.
Each class has to be comfortable with the direction Formula racing is taking them.
I notice that the Mosquitos seem quite happy with the way things are happening with them.

I don't think formula racing should be looked on as a wedge to divide existing classes, rather it should looked on as another level to aspire to.

At the moment it looks like the classes are standing in a circle, eye balling each other off, waiting for the other to make the first move.

Well folks the first move is almost upon us, and it is inevitable that more and more people will take up the concept of Formula racing.

If we play our cards correctly, F16 will be the formula they take up.

I have plenty more to say on this matter, but this will do for now. I won't double post this on the Taipan forum as most interested parties look here any way.

Regards Tony Jenkins
Blade 002

The idea is to cater for the 10 or so taipan 4.9 crews who would be attracted to sail in F16 mode in a series prior to our main event, the taipan nationals. We only envisage this as a warm up for the nationals, which will have a fleet of 40 to 50 4.9's.

Any other F16 is most welcome to sail in the series, although it is recognised that there are clashes with other regattas at this time of year, plus accommodation issues, which may prevent non-taipan crews from competing.

As for an official F16 National titles, the Forster regatta, in conjunction with the F18s, seems the logical venue. A significant fleet of taipans sail at this regatta in any case.

Representatives from the various classes/manufacturers need to get together and make it happen. Why not aim for an inaugural event in 2004?

Regards


Phil Edwards
TCAA President

Of course I will follow the lead of Phill as he is the Aus representative. So in this post I'm acting as a normal enthousiast coining one or two idea's.


>>We only envisage this as a warm up for the nationals


I think that would be the right (fun) format, mostly because the Taipan Nationals are the more important venue and I think we must avoid distracting from this. Hence it may be a wise idea to not call this event the unofficial F16 nationals, moreso because the mozzies are unlikely to make it due to conflicting dates. And I would like to propose to reserve the identifier nationals for a more serious attempt to get all type of F16's out to a single event. I know that in basis this is just semantics but nevertheless. I think Phill suggested to name this F16 event linked to the Taipan nationals something like the Victoria F16 challenge or something. I think something like this would be a good path to take.

It may even highten the feel of this linked F16 event to present it as a "series of spi training in earnest". I expect most Taipan F16 sailors to be relatively new to spi sailing. And the trick with spi's is that a crew needs to walk up the learning curve in their own speed to a control level sufficient to race the setup. Pressuring spi sailors was found to not be a good idea. Mostly the spi is a daunting thing to many novices while in itself the handling is easy enough after a few trial runs in medium winds. Also it may be a good idea to ask a more experience volunteer to run a few pointer sessions or something. With this the event is assigned a lower threshold to participations and the focus on covering the learning curve may convince more spi sailors to came out than a pure racing feel might do.



I think Phil Edwards said it right when he wrote :

>>>As for an official F16 National titles, the Forster regatta, in conjunction with the F18s, seems the logical venue. A significant fleet of taipans sail at this regatta in any case.


The fact that the F18's are there in strong numbers will make it very attractive to show what the 16's can do under a spi. In short; this is a good venue to show that there is a good alternative to the F18's. I think there were enough taipans in this event over the years to allow both a spi fleet and non-spi fleet without making dividing up the fleet a serious issue. Both fleets will have significant numbers making it fun for all.


>>Representatives from the various classes/manufacturers need to get together and make it happen. Why not aim for an inaugural event in 2004?

I'm willing to aid anybody in this endeavour; I know that AHPC will be interested in this and I think I'm strongly mistaken if I were to say that the Mosquito's and Blade people were not up for it. So I think the basic "want" and "willingness" is present in all and now coordination is required to make it attractive to all and make it happen. Rumour has it that a another Aus F16 builder may launch with another F16 design somewhere in the midrange future.

From my personal viewpoint I think that "getting together and make it happen" would (really) help in raising the Taipan profile in Europe ; this sort of suffered a little bit with the growth and introduction of the newer F16's (Stealth and Blade). The other issues causing this are already identified and being adressed by the builder. I'm firmly of the convinction that increasing cooperation and coordination between the Taipan class and the F16 class will have only positive effects for both classes. The succes of the one will be boosted by succes of the other and visa versa. And as I have often expressed in the past, a design without a spinnaker (option) has become unmarketable in Europe. The US may be slightly milder in this but not by a significant amount.

I will send you (Phil E.) a private mail as well, cc-ing Phill B., to investigate the possibilities of "getting together and make it happen"

With kind regards,

Wouter

E-mail has been send. I don't have your mail adres Phile, so I've asked Dave to forward it to you.

Wouter

Thanks Wouter

For your reference it is phil_ef1@energyfocus.com.au

Regards



Phil Edwards

Tony,
An "Official National" title would require the F16 to be a "National Class" regstered with AYF..

Im not sure what the current AYF stamp requires.. But it probably says something like a national elected council.. Class rules and constitution.. Also a number (3?) of state class bodies that are affiliated with the state YA..

To have an "official" National titles sanctioned by the AYF, for the F16's, would require affiliation with the AYF (or what ever they call themselves now) BUT there is nothing stopping any group of sailors getting together and sailing an event and calling it a National title. It would only mean that they wouldn't have their results accreditated by the AYF and printed in any national or state annual publication.
The Hobies sailed successfully for many years and conducted annual state and national titles with out being affiliated with any state or national authority.
Darryl J Barrett

So it is either that or change the name. I'm okay with either. However I would like us to be AYF recognized. Anybody knows what the requirements are for that ?

Wouter

Very good point about YA affilation.

I don't know the official requirement. But I will look into it on Monday and find out.

The wheels are in motion regarding a national constitution.

Assuming Forster in October is where and when we plan to meet as a F16 class, then that should be our goal to have the rubber stamps in place.
And if the bureaucracy is, that the official status can't be approved. Then "Offical" can relate to the first "organised" meeting of all the classes to race under the F16 banner.

Any other thoughts ?

Regards Tony

For AYF affiliation it would first require that a group of sailors meet to form "an Association" At which they vote people into the Minimum number of "officials" required ie president, secretary,and treasurer, (two people can fullfill all these positions if necesary ie secretary and treasurer can be the same person) the "association" then has to have a constitution voted into effect, the assosiation then has to apply to, with a copy of their constitution be registered with the department of consumer affairs (or what ever the department responsible calls itself in each state) It then has to open a bank account in the associations name with two signatories to be able to access that account (president and treasurer usually). Once all this has been done then the association presents itself to it's state yachting authority and apply for affiliation with that body (and as a by product by association, they also become affiliated with the national body) The state body will reqire a copy of the constitution for their approval and ratification and the appropriate fee, and generally after their next "race committee" meeting approval of the affiliation will be sent to the association.
To become truly national (although not absolutely necessary) there should be assosiations formed in other states with the same association name, but, with the addition of their appropriate states name as part of their associations name, these state associations then become "affiliated with the main or national association.
Darryl J Barrett

The mechanics of forming an association are really quite simple, and to become affiliated isn't difficult, the biggest problems generally are getting a group of people together that can agree to, some times the most simple of things like 1. The name (sounds simple but you would be surprised at how many arguments have occured at the forming of a new association over "THE NAME")
2. The constitution. There are hundreds of different constitutions availabe that can be tailored to suit any association, Every state Yachting authority have one's that they will make available willingly and free, but when it comes down to the small (usually unimportant) items the more people that are present to make the decision, the more violent the disagreements are over the smaller points.
There is a saying that "god created the horse, then he thought about it and decided that he would get a second opinion so he formed a committee of "people" to design the "horse" using all the same criteria that he had used. What the committe came up with after many arguments and compromises was the CAMEL" What you have to make sure of when forming a new association is that you don't end up with a "camel".
Darryl J Barrett.

Darryl,
I may be completely off base.. As I haven't looked at the AYF rules in a few years..
However calling any title "National" or "Australian" without AYF sanction leaves all who sail in them open to disqualification at any "recognised AYF event". This means any State event (I dont know about club events)..

Back when I last looked at the AYF rules anyone sailing in a nonsanctioned title automatically lost his/her AYF membership..This membership could be regained if they rejoined.. Im not sure about your state but in WA, State and AYF memberships are included in the sailing club fee structure..

I believe the Tiapans are an AYF recognised class and thus hold "recognised" titles.. I can just imagine the happiness all round if someone like Ashby sailed the "National F16 titles" to promote Tiapans and then a few months later, was 6 bullets up in the world A class titles, and gets fingered as a non-member of an affiliated national body.. He may find his non-membership would result in all his results being found void.. Or even if he was sailing later in the Australian Tiapan titles.. Has this happened yes.. I recall vaguely a crew (Tornado?) was scrubbed from a title because they sailed in an "nonsanctioned H16 event"..
It may also pay to review the use of "NSW" or "state" in any event..

This is the reason we had to drop "National" and "Australian" from the Javelin titles..

The Taipan National Association is affiliated with the AYF (now called Yachting Australia). This required providing them with our constitution, contact details for the President and Secretary and an annual fee of $80 (I think). I don't believe there is a requirement to have separate state associations.

We also are formally incorporated as an Association in NSW, which gives some legal protection to the office bearers.

I can provide a copy of the taipan constitution as a starting point.

According to NSW government regulations to set-up any association requires a meeting of at least 5 people, where the rules (ie the constitution) of the association are agreed, a person is nominated to act as Public Officer to apply to the Dept. of Fair Trading to register the Association, and a minimum of 2 people are elected as committee members. The Incorporation fee is about $120 from memory. That's it.

The initial meeting to convene the taipan Association was done by phone hook up involving a representative from each state and AHPC, the designer/manufacturer.

Regards


Phil Edwards

Any individual can sail in any event that they like that is not associated with, connected with, or in any way, under the control of yachting Australia without it being any business of theirs. The only things that they have any control over are events that specifically come under their auspices ie class's, clubs, sailors, and class associations who atually put them selves under the ultimate control of yachting australia by the act of becoming affiliated with YA. It should be obvious that YA cannot possibly have "control" over any one , class, club, organisation unless YA has previously gained the authority from those people etc, by them actually giving YA that control over them. Without that affiliation it would be like YA saying that they had complete control over ALL boats, clubs, sailors, and waters that were sailed on, simply because they (YA) say they do! nice thought for Yachting Australia, BUT it doesn't work that way with in the law. And if YA was to put down some stipulation that some non affiliated sailor who sailed at some non affiliated club or non affiliated event, could be penalised at some later date if they were then competing at a YA sanctioned event, I'm pretty sure that the resulting compensation claim would send YA broke forever! For years Hobie conducted "non Sanctioned WORLD TITLES" at which many Australians (and other nationals) who were at the same time financial members of clubs affiliated with YA, sailed at, placed at, and won, and later many of those sailors went on to compete at state, national, international, and olympic level, in other class's, and not one of them was ever even threatened with any form of sanction, WHY, because it is outside of the powers of discrimination of Yachting Australia or any other Yachting authority. It isn't "law" just because some one say's it is, it's only law when its proven in court.
By joining a yacht clud and paying the prescribed fee, a sailor automatically becomes REGISTERED with YA and becomes the beneficiary of certain benefits (ie so called insurance), but this doesn't mean that YA can dictate to you what type of boat you can sail, where you can sail it or what you called any type of trophy that you win (you could call it the "greatest sailor in the universe" event if you liked) and YA would not batter an eyelid, let alone try to bring forth some draconian disipline that they have no authority for. Yachting Australia (or for that matter NO BODY else) holds the exclusive, registered copy right to the term "National Title" and untill/if some one does it is a title that is free for any one to use, whether deserved or not.
It is not necessary for there to be affiliated associations in all/other states. there could be only one - the association that is the governing body for the whole of Australia, or it could be taken further, there could be the one world association which governs the "class" world wide. But it is usual for there to be many, smaller affiliates such as state associations, using the same constitution and abiding by the same class rules etc, as it becomes very difficult, even impossible, for a national controling body to govern every state from one location. How do they set such simple things as social events in WA if the national body is in say NSW. Similarly at which clubs do the sailors sail the state heats for F16 in Tasmania.

Darryl, as I said I may be well out of the loop..
So someone with more time should go read the YA/AYF regs then read the Sailing org rules..

Maybe the YA/AYF has changed since I was the Javelin class measurer 5-6 years ago..

The reason we had to change the titles as it was poined out in very specific terms from YA/AYF that if we continued any sailors that competed would lose their YA/AYF membership.. No biggy if one was only competing in only the Jav titles.. BUT if any one of us wanted to sail in subsequent registered "National" title or registered "International" title then they would have to apply for a new membership.. Or wait for the new club membership to reregister with YA/AYF..
So wouldnt be a problem if all one wanted to do was sail in club events and unregistered events.. But may be an issue for the stars..

Folks,
I have always intended registering the F16 with both the Department of Fair Trading and AYF to make it rigi dig.

I have been waiting to get a critical mass on a national basis. We have to not only raise the funds to pay the initial fees but the ongoing registration costs.
As interest is climbing at an ever increasing rate now may be the time to make it happen.

Phile- I fully support your suggestion of a National Titles at Forster. I would like to thankyou for your input in this discussion. I would also like to take you up on your offer and appreciate you emailing me the constitution submitted by the Taipan Association.

email- phillbrander@bigpond.com

I would also like to get a copy of the Mosquito constitution.
Tim, could you please advise who I should talk to about this.

Stewart- if you have any documents/advice that could assist please forward them to me. Also if you could email your phone number I'd like to call you some time.

Darryl- if you have any additional information that could help could you please forward it to me. Also I would like to thankyou for your helpful input.

TonyJ-
When you are talking to the AYF on Monday could please also raise Stewarts concerns and see if they can fill us in.

Looks like it is time to get the ball rolling.
I thank you all.

Regards,
Phill Brander
Australian F16 Representative.

Hi all

As promised, below is a summary of what it takes to become official.

I havn't had a chance to read it all yet, but I think it could all be organised without a lot of fuss.

In brief, you need to provide the following to become affiliated:

i) a completed Office Bearers Form (attached)
ii) a copy of your Class Constitution
iii) completed Sailing Calendar Form (attached)
iv) a copy of your Incorporation Certificate
v) affiliation fee for 2004-05

The fees for Class Affiliation in the coming year are the same as the previous year, these being:

ISAF International & Recognised Classes $110.00
National Classes $55.00




Regards Tony

Okay, so we now know what they require of us but what do we get in return ?

Wouter

After incorporation and then affiliation with the YA the association then becomes the offifial recognised representative of the "class" at state level, national level and internationally. the class is listed in the yachting authorities records and can have their "program" of events for the next year published in the official program for that year. correspondence to the YA from the association at the end of this year/start of next year as to "state" champions, "national champion", forwarded by the association will be published by the YA and the information will appear in all state yachting "programs" for the next twelve months. And with that "recognition nationally and internationally of those titles ie "state champion" in the F16 "class, or "National champion" or what ever is appropriate. the association can also apply for any assistance to the YA for the running of majour events, and even for financial assistance for training, travel for "class represenatation to international events etc (if there is funding there at YA), in fact ALL the benefits that are available to any "legitimate" class association affiliated with the YA.
The association becomes "official" and the true and only representative of that "class" ie F16, and no one else can then lay claim to the representation of that class (and steal it for their own personal gain). The "class then becomes association "owned" (as opposed to a manufacturers owned and controlled "class") which means that the association has full control over the definition of what the class really is and any manufacturer has to conform to those definitions and not make their own changes and arbitarilly declare that any changes that they (the manufacturer) make are then the legal dimensions of the class (as all manufactureres do from time to tome, not for the benefit of the class, but purely for financial reasons)

The main benefit of being affiliated with Yachting Australia is class recognition at the national level. It also provides an opportunity for a class to have input into the decision making process by YA, although I doubt if the opinion of a single class association carries much weight.

YA has quite a nice website at http://www.yachting.org.au.

As an affiliated class, F16 events (e.g. National titles) would be incorporated in the forthcoming Events Section at the YA website. F16 news items could also be sent to YA as a means of publizing the class.

Phil Edwards

Can you check up the "requirements of a national class".

Rules have probably changed. But once it was stipulated on the number of "states" competing to classify as a "national"..

This may be important as it was how the state associations used to grant class association money for holding a title & sending boats to titles. Even if its only a $500-1500..
Perhaps YA/AYF may still grant monies to associations to hold events.. Also being "National" helps in obtaining grant monies from "health" departments.. The Javs used to get a few thousand each year from "Sun Smart".. Worth thinking about..

Also look at the "ownership" that "national" status brings.. It once stated all TV and marketing rights of "National & International" were the property of YA/AYF and Sailing org. Again not a huge problem unless your hoping to get the class on TV at 3:30 am between home shopping and the breakfast shows.. But thing that slot is rerserved for the 18teens..

Thanks, Phil E.

Noted. I will take a look at that.

Wouter

>>Rules have probably changed. But once it was stipulated on the number of "states" competing to classify as a "national"..

If this is true that they must allow a growth membership or something. No class just suddenly materializes to the required size.

>>This may be important as it was how the state associations used to grant class association money for holding a title & sending boats to titles. Even if its only a $500-1500..

I would like to see programs like these in writing

>>Perhaps YA/AYF may still grant monies to associations to hold events.. Also being "National" helps in obtaining grant monies from "health" departments.. The Javs used to get a few thousand each year from "Sun Smart".. Worth thinking about..

If this is the case than by all means. But I would like to see a cost - (likelyhood of) expected benefit analyses of this.


>>>Also look at the "ownership" that "national" status brings.. It once stated all TV and marketing rights of "National & International" were the property of YA/AYF and Sailing org. Again not a huge problem unless your hoping to get the class on TV at 3:30 am between home shopping and the breakfast shows.. But thing that slot is rerserved for the 18teens..

AYF can never lay claim to this UNLESS you sign away rights to these by becoming a member of AYF. It is the same with ISAF. They are effectively private organisations subject to the same laws applicable to persons such as you and me. I can not lay claim to words like "sailboat" nor can they lay claim to "national or international" . This is a common misconception. This is also the reason why they go after the possible participants of rebel classes and not after the rebelious class organisation. It is the same tacktic as used by shady characters in both criminal and secret service organisations.

This is why I want a throurough and in depth discussion on this topic. I see no reason to sign away our unalienable rights for no returning benefits (3 am TV coverage if we ever grow big enough to warrant that) and pay for that "taking away of rights" as well.

Wouter

>>>After incorporation and then affiliation with the YA the association then becomes the offifial recognised representative of the "class" at state level, national level and internationally.

But I don't want the AYF to represent us Internationally. They are the AUSTRALIAN yachting Federation and should restrict their meddling to that area. What if the other organisations like the Dutch, English, South African, American, etc all have the same idea ? I want them to be only Aus, NL, UK, SA, US, etc umbrella organisations and stick to their turf.

I'm happy with allowing the AYF to represent us (as a single contact point) for the Government of AUS and the Aus federal states. All the way up to the time they act against our interest. How strong is Hobies influence in the AYF ? Is it trully balanced and independent of the bigger member classes ?

I'm not happy having the AYF represent us in Aus in every respect. We can do that ourself well enough. Towards states and fed Government okay as it is better to present these organisations with a single point of contact but beyond that no thank you.


>>>the class is listed in the yachting authorities records and can have their "program" of events for the next year published in the official program for that year. correspondence to the YA from the association at the end of this year/start of next year as to "state" champions, "national champion", forwarded by the association will be published by the YA and the information will appear in all state yachting "programs" for the next twelve months.

With the current internet infrastructure I'm not impressed by this so much. We can easily get by without AYF playing this role. Okay it is a positive secondairy benefit, but it is not a strong enough argument to incorporate yourself as a class association.


>>And with that "recognition nationally and internationally of those titles ie "state champion" in the F16 "class, or "National champion" or what ever is appropriate.


Sorry, how interesting wether a certain group recognized a certain status of sailors or not. Steve Fosset got the world circumnavigation record but not the Jules Verne throphy because they had a conflict over the prize JV-organisation asked to have them officially recognize the record breaking circumnavigation. Does anyone think the greater public cares ? It was the fastest time around, Period.

And if they want to punish us than we just use different names for our events and keep the spend the money on more effective programs/activities. (Australian F16 challenge, NSW F16 challenge, Vic F16 challenge, Dutch Coast challenge , etc)

We simply do not need official recognition of any national organisation for this. Again a nice fringe benefit but no where near powerfull enough to warrent becoming an official member and part with class money.



>>the association can also apply for any assistance to the YA for the running of majour events,

Give me examples, please. Will they organise an event for us. Supply us with a capable RC for nothing ? Contact clubs for us to open up their club waters for our events ? Or will they just give us a leaflet with pointers on how to conduct an event, with a big section about the punished if we try to be creative ? I'm not in the slightest interested in the last thing.


>>and even for financial assistance for training,

Only for Olympic classes and one or two of our biggest competitors, I guess. Why should WE pay for that ?

Or will they give free RC training to our class officials ?


>>>travel for "class represenatation to international events etc (if there is funding there at YA),

Again only for Olympic classes and one or two of our biggest competitors. Why should WE pay for that ?


>>in fact ALL the benefits that are available to any "legitimate" class association affiliated with the YA.

So what are the benefits ? I can see only at this time : presenting a unified representation to state and federal governmental agencies. The "benefits" aren't worthg much at all.


>>The association becomes "official" and the true and only representative of that "class" ie F16, and no one else can then lay claim to the representation of that class (and steal it for their own personal gain).

I would like to see somebody try. Maybe they can claim the name but they can never steal our current organisation or influence the structure. My experience is that that individual sailors are well aware of which group is which and which. And then we just call ourselfs "The Real F16 class" and leave the other with an empty organisation. Besides our contacts with the builders are far to good to fear them jumping ship. The Same with contact dealing with the Texel and ISAF, Portsmouth handicap ratings.

Now I'm all for laying a more firm claim to the name F16 and Formula 16 but not at the expense of our independence, flexibility and capability of being creative, or very limited financial resources.


>>>The "class then becomes association "owned" (as opposed to a manufacturers owned and controlled "class") which means that the association has full control over the definition of what the class really is and any manufacturer has to conform to those definitions and not make their own changes and arbitarilly declare that any changes that they (the manufacturer) make are then the legal dimensions of the class (as all manufactureres do from time to tome, not for the benefit of the class, but purely for financial reasons)

I challenge they builder to try and alter their F16 beyond the rules. They will quickly find how far the influence of the current class setup goes. A certain Italian builder tried a stunt like that a year ago. We're still here and growing like I don't know what.

I think we must guard against overreacting.

Now that I have finished playing the sceptical advocate of teh devil let me lay down what I think is the right approach :


-1- We must guard against talking ourselfs into an organisation or framework that puts us in their pocket. Once your in somebodies pocket you never get out again.

-2- If we pay for (an organisational) membership I expect the receiving organisation to work for us and act in a customer-client relationship. We're paying them and not the other way around. Any organisation that doesn't underline this setup is better kept far away.

-3- By virtue of point 2 I expect significant influence and well established protection against peddling interests and actions that are detrimental to our class. I expect an umbrella organisation to work on aspects that are equal beneficial to all member classes.

-4- I expect the umbrella organisation to restrict themselfs to thier own turf. AYF going "International representation" on us is not it.

-5- I'm all for full cooperation on safety and event coordination and even presentation to governmental bodies. But beyond that I'm sceptical.

-6- I'm not for an umbrella organisation demanding class infrastructural changes. I see no need to have a secretary at this time as well have no class fees nor an official budget.

-7- I don't like a vendictive umbrella organisation. The kind that threatens to punish event participants when the class organisation doesn't become an official member of their umbrella organisation. This is coercement and their is a reason why they have to punish the participant; their is no legal framework to punish the class organisation to become a paid member of their umbrella organisation. The basic F16 class setup of openess and inclusiveness and the spirit of the rules that stimulate this are INCOMPATIBLE with an umbrella organisation like this.

-8- If a law requires us to become official members than we will but I strongly doubt it.


Why do I have such a harsh stance on this. Partly because of the particular situation that has existed in the Netherlands. Early on in the rise of beach cat our national organisation was a monohull organisation and regarded cats are unsafe boats and worked against the interest of catsailors in every way. A rebelious attitude grew and founded a rival organisation together with three other neglected coastal watersport groups. Now this organisation has eclips the official national organisation fully on these area's and the NFB is fully independent and has it's own links to important governmental deparments. NFB does ONLY represent the common interests and has retained its openness and inclusive stance over the years. She allows the F16 to become silent members for no fee and accepts our voluntary close coordination on the area's of safety and events. So would like us to become paying members but is fully happy to see us cooperate on the important aspects and let us grow and develop on our own initiative. I think that in time the NL F16 class will become a fully paying member of this NFB organisation; knowing that she will not meddle in internal F16 affairs as long as we adhere to the basic rules and commonly accepted practices concerning safety etc. Right now we are recognized as an existing class with specified contact info and mutual updates.

Can the Aussies explain to us to what extend the AYF is reflective of these points and the precendent set by the NFB ?

Regards,

Wouter


P.S. May comments will come across a bit harsh but I trully want to have a good and in depth discussion on this topic before we sign away anthing as a class to a national organisation that eventual may proof to be detrimental to the F16 class.

There was a classification of classes.. Depended on state represented in the fleet and numbers at titles. (dont quote me on the whole list of requirements)..
The 18 footers get around this but not holding an Australian or world title but sail for a cup.. But then they dont need help in funding!! The club has a few million dollars a year in profits, from pokies and its restaurant, to fund the 18 association and boats.. (something like $5000 gets a good crew a new water ready 18 and all sailing costs are covered by the club)

In regard to the grant monies.. State YAs are independant and thus each should be asked.. NSW may not give grants because many NSW clubs are awash with millions of gambling dollars or from their club rooms.. However YAWA used to supply grants to classes travelling to "away titles".. Maybe details are on the YAWA website?

State governmental monies was given to promote health (in our case)and thus the promotion agency sets its own rules.. I suspect each state body has differing requirements.. But the more "official" the class the easier it may be to tap into this..

Im not defending what YA or ISAF does or does not do.. But if competing in an recognised international regatta or national regatta requires YA membership then that is the rules of the regatta.. (again this does need to be checked).. IF one has lost his/her membership thats too bad as far as the regatta commitee goes..

Can they get away with it? Guess its in the fine print of the International classes titles entry form.. Which one has to sign to enter!!..

Realistically the class has to start funding the costs the representatives are paying... Phone, mail ect..

A point to seek advice on may be if there is [color:"red"] currently [/color] any benefit to incorporate the Association?

"It is the same tacktic as used by shady characters in both criminal and secret service organisations." Actually exclusive contracts are part of many businesses..

YA/AYF provides funding to get boats to any "International title" not just "Olympic class events".
The International 14s get assistance to fund a container to ship boats to the "Worlds".. Not sure if they have asked for training grants?

If I wanted to hold the F16 whatever in WA..
The hoops I would have to jump through include
(Depending on the venue).. Getting clean water which means applying for water rights..
River this means seeking YAWA and Swan River Trust ticks. To get either requires membership of YAWA.
A tick means we are officially recognised as having exclusive rights to that water.. (apart from ferries).. No other racing fleet can cross the water.. Not having a tick would means no river club would start us. Any race started by us isnt a recognised race and we would have to give way to all boats racing as per ISAF sailing rules.. Legal compensation could be a nightmare.

Offshore metro clubs would require YAWA tick and the offshore committee tick.. both again require YAWA membership.. Not having an offshore tick would mean we would be under water police rules.. This means carrying all the equipement for offshore boating.. Flares, radio, ect and the class race committee may be liable for any injury to any competitor..

Could someone check if this is the same on Sydney Harbour or your local pond/wherever?

The non metro clubs are easier as there is generally only one in each bit of pond.. Again legal liability may be an issue?

As for class fees.. I dont think its fair to ask Phill to cover costs for the Au class.. We, the sailors, should be asked to help him cover the costs he is incuring to promote and organise the class.. Some mechanism need to be formalised to provide him and any others with resources required without it going on his taxable income!

Wouter the YA (when we are affiliated) dont "represent" the class, they ACKNOWLEDGE us as a class, nationally and internationally, the only organisation that "represents" the class is the association, or should I say Associations, for there has to be representative associations affiliated with each other on an international basis for the class to become truly "international" These associations would all share a lot in common. 1. They would/should have a common name but with their relative state or national name included. 2. they would/should have the same constitution, regulations and class rules, 3. they should all be incorporated. 4. They should all be affiliated with each other and they should aggree on how/who is the "overall" organising body. That could be, by representation from each individual association, or there could be a national representative body for each country and the international direction/responsibility could be rotated from country to country every 2 years, 4 years or what ever. Or there could be one association that is the body responsible for the international organisation and all the other bodies are affiliated with it. It would/should work in exactly the same way as the yachting authorities work i.e. the associations are affiliated to the state yachting authorities, the state authorities are affiliated with the national authority and the national authority are affiliated with the international authority, and all are made up of elected representatives from each and all of those authorities. In many ways it is more democratic than most governments. But obviously if one association (there always has to be a first) is formed (no matter where) that association will obviously represent ALL the boats of the class untill such time as another association(s) is/are formed in other states/country's and the organisation for the class can be consolidated. Wouter the YA, etc, will never "own" or control an association, if you don't like the deal they give you, don't pay the affiliation fees and bang!! the next season your no longer affiliated!! They never try to control an association. By being affiliated they don't "own' you! your JUST affiliated!!! the same as if two companies come together to organise an event. they work together, they share their people to organise the event THEY AFFILIATE for a purpose. BUT that does not give either one dominance over the other in their normal business life or dealings, they have simply come together for a specific purpose. That is why class associations affiliate with yachting authorities - for mutual benefit - As an association, the benefits of being affiliated with the YA, and ISAF are great and many and far far out way any negatives. They will not have any control over our finances or the way in which we raise them. they will not interfere in the way that we promote the class or with any form of advertising/sponsorship monies that we negotiate and obtain. If they did, we as an association have the ultimate responce to any form of threat from an yachting authority - we would disaffiliate our selves from them and they would lose our support and fees. And every association affiliated with the yachting authorities have the same power. Don't you think the ISAF are aware of this? It's like having the sword of Damacles hanging over your head, they are dependent on the "goodwill" of the associations not visa versa. The ISAF and all the affiliated yachting authorities, are not entities in their own rights, their entire foundations are made up of sailors, class associations, and yacht clubs. If you take away the sailors there is no ISAF, "They" are more dependent on "us" then we are of them.
The state and federal governments, in any country, have absolutey no control over an association (apart from the laws that apply equally to any citzen of that country) The only direct effect that any government would have would be by any "funding" from the government to "Yachting" but that's it, nothing else. It has been my experience that the last thing on earth that "governments and yachting authorities" want to do is "punish" sailors and/or associations, quite the contrary, it is so much in the interests of all yachting authorities to have happy and successful associations and sailors, after all, when it is all boiled down, the only way that yachting authorities exist, is by the good will of sailors, so it is only logical that ISAF YA etc have to encourage "sailors" not hinder them.

Ohh and another point, by being affiliated with YA as an association and as a registered sailor through being a financial member of a yacht club you have personal and third party insurance cover when competing and the association, I believe, have third party and public liability cover when conducting events.

When and if the F16 becomes a recognised or International class in the eyes of the ISAF.. I have a vague feeling the ISAF needs to Ok any change of rules/constitution and or measurements the Association has passed.. Not sure how much power they have in forcing changes on associations..


This isnt the case as I understand it with YA/AYF..

NONE Stewart, the class rules which define just what the class (craft) is and basically how it will be sailed etc, etc, is not a part of the constitution and as such the Yachting authorities do not even have to see it, What YA has is a copy of the constitution and thats all. Any rule changes, boat changes, construction changes or what colour under wear that is required to be worn is entirely at the discression of the association. The only classes that the ISAF have any sort of influence over are olympic class's, and only then can they make suggestions, the final decisions are always made by the association members by a democratic vote. It has always been that way and I think that it always will.
What is it about "THE YACHTING AUTHORITIES" that seems to have gotten some of you "spooked" and even a little paranoid. All yachting bodies were STARTED BY SAILORS, ARE IN THE MAIN RUN BY SAILORS, FOR THE BENEFIT OF SALORS, and that is the same today as it was 50 years ago and will be when our great grand children will probably still be having this same dialogue. The yachting authorities are there for OUR benefit, not to seek control over us, they are not some malignant, slimy, monster that just wants to swallow us up to satisfy its own appertite and greed. They are not the "Boogy man", they are predominantly sailors working for the benefit of sailors.

Im not spooked..
As far as I know I14s arent an Olympic class.. When the I 14s made foiled I14s illegal.. The ballot had to be confirmed with ISAF before the rule could be used.. But then that was a few years ago..

read rule in the post http://www.catsailor.com/forums/sho...ew=expanded&sb=5&o=14&fpart=

This post shows a section of the ISAF rules. Affiliation with ISAF requires you accept a pile of racing rules and equipments rules as well the rules given in the post.

In effect these rules forces you to conduct your class business a time-table set by ISAF and to ask approval in various cases. Not to mention that in several cases the ISAF may give intepretation of the class rules rather than the class organisation itself. That and the payed of 1100 Euro's affiliation fee together with 50 Euro's fee per sold class boat.

Wouter

Forget the affiliation with the ISAF then (they would appear from what you have shown us Wouter to be a bunch of money hungry, power hungry, megolamaniacs, so STUFF them you don't really need them anyway) But I think that the incorporation is vital (if for no other reason than to protect the name and to offer protection for the association officers) and it can do nothing but good to affiliate with the state yachting authorities for when it comes to conducting state and or national titles.
Darryl

I spoke to Phill about incorporation and it seems to have only benefits on no (major) drawbacks. In this respect it is not comparable to ISAF affiliation. Same applies to AYF affiliation. So I will chease my opposition to it. Phill, as the Australian head, will have the final say and I will support whatever decision he makes on this.

Wouter.

Wouter

I think you mentioned that you sent me an e-mail via Dave (Slimy) Elliott. I haven't received it as yet. No doubt Slimy has been busy coming to terms with his new T5.7 and its ejector seat.

If it is still relevant you can e-mail direct at phil_ef1@energyfocus.com.au


Regards


Phil Edwards