Blade F16 design will be build locally in USA

Normally this forum is told first of new development but this time she is the last.

However the news is that the Vectorworks Marine, located in Titusville Florida, will build the Blade F16 design, of Phill Brander and Ian Marcovitch, in the USA.

See for the official announcement : http://www.1design.net/cgi-bin/webbbs_config.pl?read=5699

See VectorWorks Marine website : http://www.vectorworksmarine.com/

From involvement I know that several components have been sourced and that the electronic model to guide to machines have been rendered. The next step is to build the first batch and test these and identify any remaining issues that need to be addressed. I'm told a group that of test sailors to help in this has been found. Still, there is room for more.

Of course with the continuing bad exchange rate of the US dollar the F16 class had a problem with regard to the US scene. We are all very happy with this new development and the F16 class / designers will fully support Vectorworks Marine and Matt in any way she can.

With kind regards,

Wouter

Great news.

I've had many inquiries here on the West Coast about the class and the boats due to their versatility, ease of handling, and giant-killer performance. The biggest obstacle for many people joining in is the exchange rate for the USD. When I got my Taipan it was an unbelievable value considering the boat. Now it's more expensive than the much heavier I17R, largely because of the currency issues. If the Aussie and UK F16 builders had a group of US buyers, perhaps they could cut a good deal for them to make the cost more feasible. But a US F16 builder circumvents the issue and will once again offer US sailors an incredible performance value in the F16 package.

On a side note, some folks are getting into the class by resurrecting older designs and modifying them. Obviously, the Cobras and Mossie are examples. These aren't seen much in the US but there are other good platforms that can be modified inexpensively. Our next regatta should include a "nacra F16"--a converted Nacra 5.0. The owner will be on the water with very minimal cost thanks to creativity, elbow grease, and some leg work. The class rule are set up to reward skill and creativity, not fat wallets.

>>Now it's more expensive than the much heavier I17R, largely because of the currency issues. If the Aussie and UK F16 builders had a group of US buyers, perhaps they could cut a good deal for them to make the cost more feasible.


Something like that is absolutely feasible but only when having a firm commitment of 5 boats. It has proven very difficult to gether such a group in the past. Mostly because people want to see the boat first and when decided want to have it immediately. Gethering a group like that takes time.

>>But a US F16 builder circumvents the issue and will once again offer US sailors an incredible performance value in the F16 package.

And is much more effective. By the way the price is intended to be attractive as well. Not as the way the Taipan is not positioned against the I17R


>>On a side note, some folks are getting into the class by resurrecting older designs and modifying them. Obviously, the Cobras and Mossie are examples..... Our next regatta should include a "nacra F16"--a converted Nacra 5.0. The owner will be on the water with very minimal cost thanks to creativity, elbow grease, and some leg work. The class rule are set up to reward skill and creativity, not fat wallets.


You won't believe how much the Mossies did for the class. It installed the believe in many peoples mind that wins can be achieve even when using upgraded boats. I'm very thankful to these mossies sailors for that.

Wouter

So what is the price going to be roughly?

Mark.

>>So what is the price going to be roughly?


I can't name any number, I'm sorry.

But let me give you a feel of what is meant by the following comments.

Both the Nacra F18 and I-17R are the most financially attractive on the US market today in their different market segments. All other boats like Tigers, FX-one and yes Taipan are significantly more expensive when only looking at purchase price.

It is the full intention of VectorWorks Marine to directly compete with the most financially attractive designs available in the double handed and single handed market segments. In every sense.

Does that answer it ?

Wouter

Thanks for the info Wouter.

Here's a little food for thought.

With the rise of the $US versus the $Aus will the Blade continue to be competitive price wise in the near future? After 10 minutes of web searching and a little spreadsheet work I have found the following information.

On Feb 17th the $Aus hit the high value mark for 2004 (so far). It was set at 1 $Aus = $US 0.797900 and has been on the way down since.

On May 18th the $Aus hit the low value mark for 2004 (so far). It was set at 1 $Aus = $US 0.686601

Today, June 2nd the $Aus = $US 0.697000 which is a result of the fall of the $Aus on 5 of the last 7 trading days.

Now cosider this.....

Lets assume that a Taipan 4.9 cost "about" $Aus 17,000

On Feb 17th it would have cost $US 13,546.30

On May 18th it would have cost $US 11,672.22

Today, June 2nd it would cost $US 11,849.00


With the upcoming world events and a increase of the prime interest rate (due in a few weeks) and other things that will cause the $US value to rise against the $Aus, it seems as thought the $Aus will soon get to the value of $US 0.630000 which will make the Taipan 4.9 cost $US 10,710.00!

Can the US made Blade compete with this drop in $Aus?

But of course shipping needs to be calculated into the final "boat in hand" cost!

What do you think?

That's about what it was when I bought my Taipan--still a lot of dough but a great value at a few thousand less than the fx-1 or i17r! I think part of the F16 appeal can be that it has F18-like performance at less cost, less weight, and with more versatility.

Does anyone know what the new cost of a Taipan is in Australia? It's just that $17,000 is way below what I have heard, so I was a little surprised to see this.

Maybe this is the "base" price - ie. no jib, no trailer, no spinnaker, glass hulls ...

Anyway it's great to hear Blade hulls will be built in the US. Maybe we will be importing them back to AUS until we have a builder here.

Tim

I'm not to sure about those Aud 17,000 for a Taipan F16. Maybe it is correct for a Standard Taipan (no spi) in the basic setup.

A listing of aug 2001 has the Taipan + spi at 17.541 Aud. That is the most basic setup with glass hulls, glass boards, alu rudderstocks and plain white sails with a spi kite including a single colour spi.

I accept that this listing is dated and that the prices all but certainly have changed since then. It is afterall 3 years old.

Source : http://www.x-rates.com/

However 17.500 Aud translates to 12.197 Us$ = say 12.200 UsD ex tax, ex shipping. I think shipping is at least some 1500 Us$. So do the adding up. But then again you would have to ship your blade as well, this will be cheaper but it still needs to be added to the price of the BLade.

I think the exchange rate has to drop to at least 0.60 Aus to 1 Us$ to be directly competing (in cost) with any locally build boats. That is still a 15 % drop. Incidently that would make the US$ equal to the Euro as well. Of course this hasn't happened over the last year.

We'll just have to see. I for one certainly hope the exchange rate goes down.

WOuter

Tim,

>>Maybe we will be importing them back to AUS until we have a builder here.

Humm, the thought has occured on several other minds as well.

Wouter

So when is Vectorworks Marine going to have a Blade on the water in Florida for everyone to race against? We will have 3 Taipan F16HPs sloops racing this weekend in the Jetty Park Ocean Regatta which is practically in their backyard. It would be nice if they could make it out and show the boat off a bit.

Jennifer Lindsay
Taipan 4.9/F16HP #262

[color:"black"] [/color] Greetings,

I'm not sure but I think that Nacra F16 Eric referred to is mine. But in any case, I am building a Nacra F16 and do hope to be up and sailing by the time the next "cat fight" in California comes along in late June.

I'm starting out with a relatively new, if somewhat seedy looking Nacra 5.0 that I pretty much got for a song and didn't sing very well. I'll be using the Nacra mast and having the sails recut by Skip Elliott, who is very knowledgable (he's made all the sails for Nacra for years!) and a GREAT guy. He's also going to give me a quote on a gennaker, but since he's quite reasonably, I'm not too worried.

And while I'm under NO illusions about how competitive I'll be (overweight & no daggerboards), I'm still looking forward to getting out on the water and raising some hull.
And, yes, a pair of either Taipan or Blade ply hulls may loom on the horizon. If so, I'll simply move the sails and hardware over and shazaam - a reasonably close to state of the art F16.

According to the folks at Nacra, who are also being quite helpful, there are well over 1000 5.0's out there. My take is many of those are languishing in backyards and can be "had" at a VERY reasonable price.

And while a new Blade of Taipan may be THE preferred way to go, I plan to be up and sailing for around a $1000.00, depending on the cost of the gennaker.


So thanks to both Eric and Wouter (way to go, guys) both of whom have been quite helpful. See you on the water!

John Metzig
Hesperia, CA
Nacra F16 - USA 74

Now that I have your attention, read John M's post.
Eric

You won't see it this weekend I'm afraid. For one thing the masts haven't arrived yet. I know because I'm involved in that one. (Maybe that is the reason why they are delayed ?)

Sorry.

Wouter

I'm not saying anything in favor or against the Taipan or the US Blade but the Taipan is available now and nobody knows the cost of a US Blade. I would buy either boat but the price has to be right, that's why I decided to do a little research. Major price drops for any F16 boat will be a boost for the class which is something I support, that is part of the reason I am giving out this information, so people know that things are improving in the "F16 cost" area, this will make a F16 boat more attainable to more people.



I have a quote dated May 13th this year. Complete Taipan 4.9 with standard sloop fitout (glass hull, glass foils) "about" $Aus 17,000. So your right, it is standard, there are many options avaiable but not at a great cost excepting the addition of a spi.



At today's exchange rate the "$Aus 17,000" taipan cost $US 11,643.27. Due to the exchange rate (which is falling very fast, todays rate is the lowest this year) the cost of the Taipan has dropped $US 561.03 in the last four days! The value of the $Aus has already droped 15% since Feb 15th, and I think it will continue to drop.



The monthly average value of the $Aus in April 01 was $US 0.505. I think it will be at $US 0.60 anytime within the next 4 weeks; values change very drastically at times.

I don't live in the states so I will have to pay for shipping on any new boat( shipping, not so much $, I have an good friend who is big in the overseas shipping business) and tax (taxes, no friends there to help ).

What ever the case, I for one am very much interested in sailing F16 am I am doing all I can to get myself a boat. All I can say is that anyone else with interest in the class good new is on it's way in the form of a strong dollar AND a US built Blade. Take advantage and be happy, things are looking bright for F16.

Great work John,

An F16 at $1000! that's a deal that would be hard to beat. Here where I live the only cat's that I have been able to find for sale are H16's and you can't touch them for under $1500 and no good for F16. Right?

Congradulations on your boat.

Stealth F16 base price (everything included) = 7200 Pounds = 13000 US

Wouter

When choicing between a basic Taipan and one with the upgrades (Glass-Kevlar hull , carbon rudder stocks and boards, etc) Than I would definately choose to go with teh upgrades. AHpc is indeed not charging anything but very attractive prices for the upgrades and they look really nice. Kevlar -glass hulls is just teh best you can get, maybe even better than full carbon hulls. Hell those hulls could stop a bullet !

Wouter

Thanks for the support and encouragement, Eric. I am including a photo of my boat as a before picture.

John

Thanks for the support and encouragement, Eric. I am including a photo of my boat as a before picture.

John

I am not sure why, but the Forum did not include the photo the first time so I will try again. The boat did include a trailer that had three flat tires (the spare was also flat!) It was built in the late '80's, sailed about a half dozen times and been sitting in a backyard in Redondo Beach ever since.

John

Greetings BLS,

I noticed that you are making moves toward a Hobie 16. May I assume you considering configuring that boat for competition as an F16.

If so, good for you! I have talked extensively with Eric Poulson about this (the West Coast F16 rep) and we BOTH agree that the best way to grow the F16 is to encourage as many people as we can to do exactly what you and I are doing. (ie: building F16's out of existing boats.) And yes, we believe that the H16 like my Nacra would fit the "spirit" of the F16 rules and would welcome you and your boat aboard. And I suspect Wouter would say the same thing.

And while I know next to nothing about details on the H16, let me make a couple of suggestions:

1. Check out the Hobie websites for things to look for on a used H16. Those guys are probably the best source of info since they are really into the boat.

2. If I can be of help or encouragement on any other level, let me know. AND do keep me posted on how your project is going. I live in SoCal by the way so I may have more access to a better selection of H16 parts.

3. Eric and I are talking about trying to have an F16 West Coast championship (maybe in connection with the A Cat guys) in 2005. And to do that we really we're looking at a VERY mixed fleet of boats. And we both agree that's great.

So hang in there, and again, keep me posted.

John Nacra F16 (USA-74)

Hi John,
Am I the only one who can`t see the pic ?
Well done on the initiative, how many N5.0`s are lying around in other people`s yards, begging to be taken out for a sail again, hopefully in F16 form. A great way to get the class off the ground with a reasonable start-up cost.

Cheers
Steve

I can't see the pic as well.

I'm currently hoping he will try posting it again.

Wouter

Greetings,

Per the request of Wouter & Steve, I will try to post my "before" picture of the Nacra again.

By the way, if you ever buy an older cat that has lots of oxidation on the the gel coat, try using Meguiar's "Heavy Duty Oxidation Remover." It does a GREAT job of restoring gel coat, faster and easier than rubbing compound.

As for how many other Nacra 5.0's are lying about? They guys at Performance Catamaran said they built over 1500 stateside. My guess is there may be more than that worldwide since I know they are building Nacra's in Australia at least.

In any case I hope to be sailing my brand new, second hand F16 by the weekend of the 26th, just in time for the Huntington Lake races.

Cheers to all
John Metzig

Greetings to all,

I couldn't open that one either. So here is my last attempt at uploading a photo of my "before" picture.

John (USA-74)

A few tips when posting pics

-1- make sure they are smaller than 100 kb or they won;t show.

-2- get rid of any funny name; meaning don't use spaces 0r strange characters. Best are short simple names.

-3- make sure they are either JPG or GIF pics. BMP might do but these are quickly over the 100 kb limit

Please try again

Wouter

Hi, I sail with a Nacra Blast.

Is there anyone who Looks withes cat fit in the F16 box????
A Nacra 5.0 has a Texel rating of 117 no spi and 113 whiff spi and is 149 kg + the weight of the spi.
A F16 has a Texel rating of 106 no spi and 102 whiff spi and is 107 kg
I think you will never come close in a race.
Victor.

Hallo Victor,

Alles goed ?


>>Is there anyone who Looks withes cat fit in the F16 box????

The Blast does fit the F16 rules as the class rules only specifies maximum or minimum limits so everything on the right side of the limit is allowed. The Nacra blast was on the right side of every limit the last time I checked and is therefor F16 compliant. Of course you are right by saying that compliance itself is no garantee that you're about as fast as the fully optimized F16's.


>>A Nacra 5.0 has a Texel rating of 117 no spi and 113 whiff spi and is 149 kg + the weight of the spi.

Texel gives 147 kg for he nacra 5.0 and John has ordered a custom made and larger F16 main to go on the boat. This main is 1.5 square meters larger than the standard 5.0 main. If you run all the mods throught the Texel rating calculator you will find that this setup has a new rating of 107 under spi which is getting pretty close to the 102 of the fully optimized F16's.


>>I think you will never come close in a race.

John knows he is at a disadvantage when sailing his "Nacra F16", we adviced him honestly about that, but he has no problem with it. Which in turn I think is cool. He wanted to have a F16 like boat on the water very soon and he found that he could do it for very little investment by this route. He is think about building a fully optimized F16 afterwards. I hear he has made a Timber Cobra for himself in the past so he knows what is means to build himself a new baot like a timber Taipan or Blade.

Getting back to 107 to 102 in rating. I've raced P16 against H16 with a similar rating difference like that and found that this difference is equivalent to a pretty small distance between boats. I found that unless I had a feeling that I'm right on a H16 tail that I wouldn't correct out over him on handicap as well. Most of the time that I corrected out over H16's I finished neck to neck with them or finished just ahead. For this reason I think John will have a good platform to start out on I wouldn't say that is the rating difference was more than 10 points but with 5 points he will come close enough.

Besides The mosquito's in Australia are in a similar situation and did upset a few Taipan sailors over there by just sailing well and finish ahead anyway. It is very easy to overweight a performance difference of a few % when on the water this difference is almost neglectable when sailing a better race.

If john sails well than he will get close.

Je vaart een nacra Blast op Katwijk, doe je vaak mee met hun club wedstrijden ? Hoe verhoud de blast zich tot de andere boten ?

Fair winds,

Wouter

Greetings,

Thanks to Wouter for jumping into the fray on my behalf. I'd just like to add a few thoughts of my own:

1. I got into this with my eyes wide open. I chose the Nacra 5.0 because it fit into the basic box limits of the F16 class and I could pick one up REALLY cheap. I was aware of the weight and non-board limitations of the 5.0 when I started.

2. I also happened to have my last set of sails from my old Cobra gathering dust in my garage. I found out these could be cut to fit the optimized size for the F16 class for a small investment. Since I happen to live in So. Cal. Skip Elliott, who made all the US Nacra sails, is doing the work for me. I'm also talking to him about a gennaker. I'm pretty sure at least my rig will be up to the task.

3. All of that meant I could put an F16 together and get on the water in a short time for a reasonable cost. My logic was and is, if I race in the F16 class 2 or 3 times a year, who cares how fast my boat is? And if I find myself racing more than that? I can build a set of lightweight hulls to fit the hardware off my Nacra and will get a close to optimized F16 without a huge initial investment.

4. As for "getting close" - if I remember right, that's why we race the races. Slower boats, cars, horses, etc. (Do women fit in here somewhere?) have been scoring wins for years. Personally, over the years I won a few races with a much slower boat and lost a few with a much faster boat. I still believe the "nut on the tiller" makes the most difference.

And as Eric Poulson, the F16 West Coast rep who sailed a Nacra 5.0, suggested, the limitations of my Nacra F16 will be less important when the wind comes up.

The verdict: even though I didn't know the F16 class existed until early May, I should be racing one a got with pocket cash by the last week of June. And that's pretty neat - and a lot more fun than looking at pictures.

Good sailing to all.

John
Nacra f16 (USA74)

Today it depends very much on the course sailed as to which "spinnaker" cat will "win" races. If races are set as windward and returns without reaches then the most tactical and importand legs are the "runs" and with spinnaker but no centre boards you will suffer no disadvantage, all depends on the ability of the skipper and/or crew to pick the correct angles and side of the course. Although you will obviously suffer some what on the beats, from watching the F18's race for a few years now, any advantages on the beats will be lost in seconds if that best beating boat doesn't get it together on the run, so just "go for it and exploit your "good points" and you may be in for a pleasant surprise.If you sail an "olympic" style course ie trianglr loop triangle, then there are the extra reaching legs that you have no disadvantage on, and dont let any one tell you that a "heavy" can't beat a boat that is ultra light. if the skipper and crew use their weight on the boat in the right way, weight can be a great advantage in all sorts of weather, not just the heavy.
Darryl

Is not that I don’t like the idea of the Nacra F16 (I like it very much).

Watt I mend is“ there are a lot of cat that can be modified to fit the F16 rule Box.”.
How can a Cat. be modify to be a compatible F16 cat?

In fact I want to do the same with my blast.
Example I can make my Blast faster whiff a lager rig (jip and mean sail).
A bigger jip is the les expensive. 13 sq.mrt mail sail is good one up handled.
I sailed my Nacra 5.5 whiff 16 sq.mrt one up up a lack not up the Noord sea, that is to rough.
Fore me 15 sq.mrt is a bit much fore the blast one up.

What we typically do with modifying cats to the F16 rule/performance is take the Texel handicap calculator and start adjusting parameters until we approach the F16 handicap of 102.

But a little knowlegde of sailbaot design is handy. OF course a bigger jib doesn't help that much when you sailing downwind with a spinnaker.

>>How can a Cat. be modify to be a compatible F16 cat?

Often the problem is not to be compatible but to be close in performance. F16 rules do enclose alot of the 16 foots cats on the water today but it also outperforms all of them.


>>In fact I want to do the same with my blast.

I've looked at the blast and I think that it is pretty limited in adjustment because of its weight and short mast. The weight can not be changed of course and the short mast limits mainsail area and spinnaker luff length. These two are very important in boosting performance. The Nacra 5.0 has a significantly taller mainsail luff length.

>>13 sq.mrt mail sail is good one up handled.

How much do you weight ?

Wouter

Doesn't the Blast have small racks? I don't think racks are against the F16 rules, unless they extend beyond the max. width. So width might be another issue with the Blast.

Not that I'm an expert on Nacra's (even though I'm about to start sailing a converted one), but according to the Nacra website the racks on the Blast are an option on the racing version. With the racks installed, the Blast is 10'8" which it seems to me suggests that Blast could be sailed as an F16 without the racks.

Of course, the class could agree to let them in with them with the racks, but that's a different issue. And while I'm all for the F16 class being as inclusive as possible, I think altering width limits that much could come back to bite us.

And while on the subject of my boat, Skip Elliott of Elliott Pattison sails did a SUPER job making my old Cobra sail fit the F16 limits including putting an F16 logo on it. AND he did it for a price that was so low I felt guilty taking the sail. Skip said he wanted to do his part to help us get off the ground.

So if you're stateside and need a sail or a sail recut, give him a call. He's been making the Nacra sails since the start and is just a super guy.

Also one of the guys at his company got so interested in F16 idea he's talking about bringing his Freestyle 474 to the Huntington race.

John Metzig
USA 74

Hi all,
just thought I would pass on my experiences of sailing a non optimised F16 Mosquito.The biggest factor in performance I find is the sailors on the boats and the conditions, in favourable conditions I have been able to beat most other cats on the water so if you are looking at putting a cheap F16 on the water by modifiying a existing cat I would say go for it. By example at a recent reggatta on a lake I have sailed on for all my life with wind gusting from 0 to 30 knots in flat water [everything in my favour] sailing in a mixed fleet including Olympic Tornado,Hobie Tigers,Taipan 4.9 sloop with spinnaker,A class,Taipan 4.9 catrig,Hobie 18, I was able to be first over the line in two races and place in the first three over the line in five of six races held with 20 boats in the division. I did however not finish one race as I capsized while trapezing on a reach with spinnaker up [something I don't recomend to those starting to sail F16 one up.] and the mast filled with water so I had to get rescue boat assistance to right it.I copped alot of stirring about the capsize but if you want to get maximum performance out of your boat you have to live with the consequences and usualy I am able to right the boat and continue.
Get Sailing, Gary.

Anyone heard anything on the Blade production?

i cant wait to check out the price of this F16 when compared to other cats.

Greetings,

I recently traded emails with Matt who's with the company that is going to be building the Blade F16 in the States. Here's what he told me about production:

"The tooling for the boat is being machined right now. There are not really any pictures of it other than those found on the F16 web site of the prototype. All of the components for finishing out the boats are either here or are in transit including foils and sails. As we get hull 1 completed, the complete build including the tooling will be documented on the http://www.1design.net/ web site and eventually transferred to our company site. Also a formal press release including pricing and availability will be released when hull 1 is splashed."

If you want to purchase plans and have a go at building one yourself, the contact info is: [email]phillbrander@bigpond.com.[/email]

Hope that helps.

In the meantime, my new tramp should be here tomorrow and I plan on getting my boat out on the water this weekend. Hopefully I'll be able to make the race at Huntington Lake.

John
Nacra F16 (USA 74)