Rick's New Taipan F16 Rudder Design

While I was down in Key Largo today picking up half of my new boat (long story.....) Rick showed me the new setup he has on his T4.9. It seems everyone is having problems with the metal bars that are supposed to keep the rudders down. Rick had one of his break off at Gulfport. I took some pictures, I'm sure Rick can explain how he set it up better. Basically the Bungee keeps pressure on the rudder (pulling it up) while the line in the cleat holds it in place. When the rudder needs to kick up, it pulls the cleat up and the bungee pops the rudder up. Seems to work real good. I'm sure my explanation is probably too long-winded and unnecessary so here's the pics.

Here is pic 2:

I have the newer AHPC carbon stocks and kick-up system. They replaced the old glassfibre rod by a heavier on and I will go on record by saying that I'm quite happy with this setup. I sail of the beach and on the sea so typically I have a surf to get through when going out and coming back in. I found that you best do a few things differently but when doing so I'm more happy with this system than the ones I used on both Prindles and older Nacra. I also prefer it over the newer Hobie and Nacra systems in some conditions while in others prefering the newer Hobie and Nacra systems.

Wouter

Guess I don't know what carbon stocks mean, but if it is still a rod system, it doesn't work very well around here.
The system I am now using is similar to the simple NACRA cleat it down and bungee it up system.., clean, easy, cheap and it works better than anything else.

After Gulfport I gave Seth all the remaining, unbroken rods from the Taipan system and said I will never use them again. If I couldn't find another system, I would sell the boat. That is how much I dislike the stock system.

Good example. I had a great start against 200 boats in the Miami-Key Largo Race and was out with Bill Roberts big boat and honkin' when I noticed I had a lot of kelp on the boards and rudders. So, I cleaned the boards and when I pulled up on the dumb rod to raise the rudder, the entire rudder system jumped off the pintle.
It took me almost a half hour to get them back on.
Never again.

And, of course, in Gulfport one of the rods snapped and I had to borrow one from Seth. Wrong size and I had a lot of helm and the boat was 20% slower.

Rudders can be the Achille's heel of some great designs, i.e., the infamous Mystere rudder system that would allow the rudders to pop up in deep, clear water.., and then when you went over a sand bar or came into the beach, they would stay locked down. Saw some Worrell 1000 Mystere boats rip off their transoms coming into the beach.., hot rudder system alright.
Rick

Awesome system Rick. I like it. I have been looking at my rudders as well, as I am not happy with the setup I have. If my rudders pop up, that means I just bent and warped beyond recognition a stainless steal screw, which is a pain in the you know where to replace, specially if its all bent to hell.

Question, can you adjust the rake in the rudders? if so how?
Is the bungee strong enough to hold them in the up position once they pop up?

Hey Robi,
I'm sure Rick's at the Tybee start today but I can tell you they do hold the rudders up - the bungee is what pulls it up there is a lot of force there. The line hold the rudder down from the bungee popping it up. So you can also set the line to keep the rudders partially down as well if conditions warrent it. Does that make sense?

Robi,
One of many problems with the rods is they are set up or down.., and nothing in between. Not good while going through shallow water (i.e., the Steeplechase), beaching or going out through the surf.
With this system you can set the rudder at half way down to still maintain steering.
Rick

Funny that is just one of the reasons why I like it.

The nacra cleat system afterwhile wears out and the line starts slipping and draggy the blades. But as with many things on my boat; I've done a few things differently than the stock designs.

For example I have pintles with a little whole in the top that takes a ring. I don't have the snap on system. Ergo My stoock can never come of their pintles unless someone has forgotten to place back the ring after fitting the stocks.

Also my (new) rod seem to me to be more rubust than on the older Taipans. I don't see it break any time soon. The diameter is too large for that. I also think it is a tube rather than a rod now. This new rod is standard on the Taipans since 2002 I believe.

Also I have a M8 or bigger adjustment threading on my rod. So I (and everybody) else can adjust to the required length within a minute). Jennifer had trouble with the locking nutt coming undone but I fix this with a bit of self galvanising rubber tape. I have no such problems. I do hear that McKenzies rudder rods use a M6 threading that can bend during kick-up action. I will contact Tony and notify him of that. But this is an issue with the implementation of the rod system, not a fundamental issue with the system itself. Again I have a M8 or M10 threading there and "That ain't gonna bend" ! So Robi, I think this may be your problem.

Also kicking up when coming on to the beach. This is a good way to shave down the tips of your rudder blades. Luckily with the AHPC stocks I have I don't have to do this. The rudderblade jams a little in the stock on the forward edge. When approaching the beach I just reach back grap the rod in the middle and lift it out of the locking hole. Than I through it back over the blade in the water. The rudder stays in the stock even at speeds of some 10 miles and hour. So I can steer properly throught he surf (and we do have significant surf over here !) and as soon as a tip hits the ground the rudder blade unjams and floats up. Works great, much better (in my experience) than any Prindle, Nacra or Hobie setup. With prindle setups I always felt like the locking mechanism could take the pintles off when not perfectly adjusted. Bend rudder pins were often the result.

Now I do my fair share of shallow water sailing and surf sailing. They last thing I want are trailing rudders or ones that are only partly down.

Now, I'm not saying that your systems aren't giving you lots of troubles, you guys know best. However I am saying that I got the same rod system (with a few difference to your systems) and mine just operates just fine.

You know as with everything, a builder needs to design things properly. The difference between a well designed Hobie system and a well designed Rod system can be really small, however the differences between badly designed ones can be really big.

All I'm saying here is that the Rod system appears to me like it can be made to work really well. So the problems are not the intrisic property of the system used but of the particular implementation.

Wouter

Hi all,

have to agree with Wouter on this one, I do not find any inherent problems with rod rudder system. Altered uses A class AHPC rudders that I bought with boat which are the same as Taipan ones, these have been working on boat for around 5 years and no sighn of problems and most of the Taipans I see in OZ still seem to be using them. I have hit bottom with mine a number of times accidentaly and they have always popped up without damage.

Regarding pulling the whole lot of back of boat in OZ it is a safety requirement that all pintles have to have a cross hole drilled in them and a pin or ring clip securing them so they can not fall off, just as centreboards must also be tied to boat in such away they can never fall off in a capsize or whatever. Both of which I would suggest is a good idea regardless of safety regulations in your country.

Regards Gary.

I saw a neet system yesterday at the Mug race. There was a Marstrom A cat who hooked a crab pot while maneuvering for his start. I thought "He's screwed, take him at least 5 minutes..." no, he reaches back, flicks something, the rudder pops up, he then pushed the tiller arm and click, the rudder is back down. Took him 5 seconds. I didn't get to look at it up close but it sure worked slick. So whatever the Marstrom system is, take a look at it. You can then put what ever rudder blade you like in it.

I like the Nacra 20 system, the pintles clip on, (no frigg'n rings to drop in the sand!!) you can lift both rudders from one side of the boat, without having to reach back and undo something on the rudderhead, you can actually just lift the hiking stick and unlock, then raise both rudders without having to leave your seat. They kick up if you hit the shore hard, but won't kick up for something like sea weed. They are pretty stout, in two years of beachings, I never broke a rudder part.

Of course, the trade off is weight. They are pretty solid cast aluminum but I do like something you can rely on, as Rick has pointed out above, light isn't fast when it breaks.

I had lots of problems with a light system on the Javelin 2, it cost me several boats in every race when the rudders would pop up, for no reason, and if you ran aground or hit the beach, you couldn't get them up until you got off the boat and lifted the boat up.

I never had a minute of problems with the Nacra I20 system and I don't know if a couple of pounds is going to slow me down much, since I'm 15 lbs. overweight anyway!

Two problems with the rope system:

1. in the picture you can see the line is chafing already. So, you have to replace it and keep an eye on it.

2. You still have to go to each side of the boat to get them both up and down, which is not always possible if it's blowing and you are comming in to shore fast, in surf. You can easily flip if you go to the low side of the boat to unclip that rudder. F that!

All you have to do is get someone to build the Nacra system in carbon fiber so you can just lift the cross bar, both rudders pop up, you can put them back down by pushing back on the cross bar, without having to go to the low side at all.

We (The SA Mozzies) had the same system as the Auzzies use, we had the stocks made up in bent aluminium tubing and used a rod to hold the rudder down similar to the Taipan system. This system was responsible for about 25% of our fleet not finishing all the races in our nationals, launching in a 2ft (at most) beach break. The most unreliable useless system I`ve ever seen, have to agree with Rick. My set of compete stocks and rudders are sitting in my garage now.

We have mostly replaced this system with Dotan rudders, and several months later no-one has had any problems. In the Cape Point Challenge I sailed straight up the beach without touching anything, the way it should be in 3m swell with waves breaking over you as you beach. If I had to go to leeward and fiddle with a rod, throw it over the back etc the way I used to, we would have capsized in the surf for sure. They are a very pricey option for us given that anything imported costs a lot more with our &^%# currency, yet they are worth the price for sure.

www.dotan.com , and never look back (And is probably the system seen on the M20 mentioned earlier.)

Steve

My MK IV A cat had a first genration of the system you saw on the Marstrom. The downhaul line ran through a carbon tube and exited behind the rear beam to pop-up cleat. A buungee raised the rudder when the line was released. Later versions that the Marstroms have been using run the carbon tube to just behind the daggerboard trunk and exit through a turning block to the opposite side. So you can raise or lower the rudder from the high side.

You can also rig up a system like the modified NACRA system which uses a cleat mounted on the boat or, as I did on my old A cat, is mounted on the front of the rear beam. The downhaul line from the rudder ends in a small block. A separate line goes from the rear beam directly ahead of the rudder, through the downhaul line block and then back to either a kickup cleat like Rick is using or through the rear beam and exits through a turning block with the cleat mounted on the rear beam and the line extending to the other side of the boat which can be cleated or uncleated from either side then. Murray's used to have a photo of this system in their catalog.

Kirt

Looked over the Dotan system, Looks swell. Which one of the rudder Blades would you Suggest for a F-16? The Rudder 25 or the Rudder 20 and which profile?
Thanks

The Dotans might have changed since I tested them, but back then there were two rudder positions -- full up and full down.
That simply will not work in our area and for distance races or races off and on beach, i.e. Tybee 500, Steeplechase, etc.
You need a rudder system that goes up only as deep as the water is. If it pops all the way up, you have NO steering. Scary in the surf.

Also the plastic heads were quite flexible and I saw a lot of yawing, allowing the blade to not be stiff.

Again, this was tests we ran when they first came out. They may have made many improvements since then. Hope so.
Rick

OK, another option killed.
Any info on the Marstrom Rudder Setup, Rick.
A link, pictures, a diagram, someone's boat that has them?
Hard to find any meaningful info on most of this from the manufacturers.
Cary

It's not the same used on the M20 or the Tornado?

http://www.marstrom.com/item_show.asp?code_no=M601

Marstrøms Tornado setup works well and is easy to operate.

Rolf:
Thanks for the link. I had already found that one. Picture is too small to make out any real details.
Surely someone here has a decent sized picture of a Marstrom Rudder setup. . .. .. .

Marstrøm's setup

Or just find any pictures of a Marstrøm Tornado setup (they are a bit different). If you can't find any decent pictures, I can go down to the garage and shoot some.

Hear my advice, please.

I know that I'm beginning to sound like a broken record, but you all should really look for the AHPC Carbon stocks (new since 2003). The McKenzie carbon stocks, as found on some Blades, is NOT the same as these AHPC stocks. Actually, I love my AHPC stocks to bits. They are the best stocks that I ever used, and they kick-up beautifully, don't have any creep, and are simpler and cheaper then the Dotan or Marstrom stocks. I read that a single Marstrom stock is 530 Euro's. I only payed 360 Euro's for a PAIR of carbon AHPC stocks.

If you ask me then this is one serious option so should all consider. I heard that Vectorworks has a new supplier for their stocks now and I can't yet comment on these as I haven't seen the final product yet.

There is one thing that I fail to understand though. AHPC has proven with their new (2003) carbon stocks setup to produce one of the most simple, best working, best looking and inexpensive stocks. Yet everyone in the F16 community is trying to reinvent the wheel and in some cases even failing at that.

AHPC got it all right this time. Indeed their previous stocks were decent but still had some quirks that you needed to get used too. However, they have solved all that with their 2003 stocks. The lock-down rod is even easy to engage now and will guide itself into the locking hole when the pin is placed relative close to the locking hole (a behaviour the older versions didn't have). I've hit a few sand bars and anker chains now and no damage to my rudderboards. My rudders are also not popping up when screaming along on a power reach nor is there any creep in the lock-down mechanism.

I fine-tuned the locking force early 2005 and secured the adjuster nut to the threading by wrapping some selfvulcanising tape around it. I haven't touched the rudder setup since and it is still operating as I tuned back then. Each time after sailing I take of my rudder stocks and store them in a bag in the shed. This frequent handling had no effect at all on the locking behaviour.

Guys, AHPC got it right this time with their current stock and locking rod. I wouldn't know what to alter about it.

I'm still crossing my fingers that some other builders will learn from this setup and start producing excellent setup themselfs.


Wouter

Wouter the AHPC rudder stock royally suck for our South FL environment. Too much sea grass, to many sand bars. If my rudder hit anything, I bent a stainless steal screw that was a huge pain in the but to replace.

I have ahpc rudder stocks and I am not happy with them.

Thought you had replaced your Rudder Kickups?
Looked all through your website and only saw one pict of the rudders, #3.
Looks like the Little ear that sticks out the could be a pain if you fell on it.

Wout:
Got a picture of your rudder setup?

This is a common misunderstanding.

Maybe it is time that I forget about being impartial for a moment.

Robi, you do NOT have the AHPC stocks. You have the McKenzie stocks, which were supposed to be a carbon copy of the AHPC stocks but in reality are just a ....., Well you can guess what words are missing here.

I tested the McKenzie stocks myself on teh first Blade F16 to arrive on the European shores and I was seriously disappointed by them. I still have trouble accepting that McKenzie did such a poor job on the stocks and if it is up to me then no McKenzie stocks will ever come to Europe. I'm not kidding. The European buyers of the Blade are all going for a different supplier of stocks, including the guy who bought the first Blade.

I know Vectorworks Marine has sourced a new supplier for the stocks, but I have not seen the new stocks myselfs so I can't comment on them. I'm really hoping that this new supplier took a good hard look at the post 2003 AHPC stocks.




I don't have that much issues with weeds and waterplants, so indeed I do not test the rudderstocks in this way much. However, the marstrom stocks are in basis not any different then the AHPC stocks, the same applies to a variaty of stocks except Hobie and Dotan stocks. If you have trouble clearing weeds of the AHPC stock (Not the McKenzie stock) then you have exactly the same trouble clearing it off the Marstrom (etc) stocks. So why pay 3 times the money for exactly the same thing ?

I hear some people are consider the old Nacra pull-down line system. Most diagrams/photo's of it that I've seen show a setup that has exactly the same issues whe clearing weed. For example : you need to go the leeward side of the boat to clear weeds of the leeward rudder. But in addition you have introduced new problems like rudder lock down creep, because the line is slipping through the cleat.




I repeat again. you do not have a AHPC rudder stock, you have the McKenzie copy of an AHPC stock and that is a very very poor copy.

In addition, your amount of sandbars don't impress me much. I don't sail in any ocean either. I go out and come in through huge surfs, passing at least a tripled of sandbars. And I have encountered my share of ankerchains, bouy ankerlines by now. All the time the stocks worked exactly as planned and much better then any F18, Prindle or Hobie stocks I ever sailed with. I'm not kidding here. The best thing about the AHPC stocks is that you can actually unlock them before entering the surf and still sail full speed through the breakers with your rudders fully down. Only at the first sandbar the tips his the bottom and float up immediately. This means I have full control when going through the large breaking surf at high speed, something I did not have with other stock design as they would have been trailing behind the boat already. Also the force to release the rudder boards on the AHPC stocks (not Mckenzie stocks) is lower than on say the Hobie or nacra stocks. On the Hobie and Nacra stocks you could feel the tip of the rudderboards being dragged over the bottom for a while. With my AHPC stocks this doesn't happen.

I'm not kidding, these AHPC stocks are the best stocks I have used ever, with the Hobie tiger stocks coming in as close second.





You really do not AHPC stocks. Not many in USA have the post 2003 AHPC stocks actually. Most Taipan sailors have the pre-2003 Alu AHPC stocks and these are less optimal. The Blade sailors all have the McKenzie stocks which look alot like the AHPC stocks but fail on a couple of key design features. These make the McKenzie stocks a real pain in the neck (IMHO).

If you don't believe me then ask Tim Bohan, I showed him my stocks and how they work/kick-up when he was over here.

Wouter

Pictures of the AHPC rudderstock.

[color:"red"]Everybody please note that when two rudderstocks look the same they can still behave totally differently. [/color] The whole trick to the Rod lock down system is in the details. Get those wrong (as McKenzie did) and you end up with a poor rudderstock. Get these details right and you'll end up with an excellent rudderstock.

Also note that in my opinion all Mckenzie stocks can be "repaired" to the planned behaviour by replacing the McKenzie rod system by the AHPC rod system. It is all in the details of how the rod system is implemented. The McKenzie rudderboards and the carbon stock itself are good, the McKenzie rod system and lock-down plates are just wrong.

I think this modification is by far the cheapest to perform. Buy two rods with additional locking plate (goes onto the tiller arm) and much stronger threaded claw (that goes around the rudderboard) will not cost much at all. Shipping of these parts will not be dear as all components will fit inside a plain envelopped used for letter sized documents. You will have to do some TLC work to fit the new rod but even that is not beyond most sailors capabilities.

Now I will present the pictures and give some additional comments.

I sailed with the McKenzie stocks one and I've tried to get them properly tuned on the beach. I eventually gave up and adviced the owner to spend some money on proper stocks, well worth it. Fine tuning my own AHPC stocks took about 15 minutes for both sides including some 20 kick-up and lock-down tests. That was back in spring time 2005 and I never had to re-adjust it since.

















My additional comments after using this system for almost 2 years now :

First the rod system, note how :

-1- the rod itself is longer than on the Mckenzie stocks. It bends more easily as a result. You don't have to lean over backwards as far.

-2- The fork that is fitted over the protruding bit on the rudder board is much more robust and it will NOT bend when put under high load.

-3- The threading on the rod is of a larger diameter then on the McKenzie system; also a shorter portion of it is exposed. This thread will NOT bend only load. And I have placed it under load plenty of times.

-4- The rod itself is made of glassfibre (NOT carbon), however it is covered with a layer of heat shrink tube. The Heat shrink is actually the black stuff that you see. This heat shrink has two major advantages. You can use a glass rod (bends more easily, as is critical in the operation of the system) without worrying about glass splinters finding their way in your flesh. The heat shrink also prevents the glass rod from being damaged or disintegrating. The heat shrink keeps all fibres in line, preventing fibres to break away. The black also looks better I think.

-5- All fittings on the rod are high grade stainless steel = strong, stiff and very durable. Even the little plate that takes the lock down pin is of high grade stainless steel. This means that its hole will not wear out and neither will the lock down pin itself.

-6- The stainless steel handle on the far left hand side of the rod is a key feature in the operation of the system. If it is too short (as in the Mckenzie case) the lock down system will be hard to engage. In AHPC case the handle is precisely of the right length. More on this later.

-7- The lock down pin in the AHPC system is indeed a PIN and not a plate as in the McKenzie system. This makes engaging the lock down ALOT easier ! The pin itself has a round tip (dome shaped) and this means that the pin will guide itself into the locking hole when positioned close enough to the whole. When the handle is held right then with just one hand the skipper can just place the pin on the plate containing the hole and find the hole WITHOUT LOOKING by just squeeshing the handle to the tiller and wiggling his hand just a little bit. As soon as the pin comes close to the edge of the hole it will drop in immediately. By squeeshing the handle towards the tiller the rod is bend a little and thus when the pin has found its locking hole the whole system is under some mild tension and there is no play in the setup.

-8- The rod comes relatively far forward on the tiller arms and teh skipper only needs to hold the left hand handle to engage the system. Meaning you really don't have the lean that far back on the boat. It seems like the Mastrom system requires you to lean back farther.



There is on other advantage to the AHPC stocks and that is that the rudder heads can be made to jam a little bit in the stocks. This can be adjusted by tightening the bolt that acts as the rotation axis of the baords. When carefully tuned, and this is an one time job as it will not slacken over time, then the locking rod can be disengaged without the board floating up. Or one can just swing the board down and sail away throught the surf and sandbars without wasting time on fully locking down the rudder. Once out the rudder can set properly and locked down fully.

Why is this handy ? Well, my experience is that other stock system allow the rudders to float upwards when the boat picks up speed, making steering in the surf very cumbersome and sluggish. Such horizontal rudders are also great ways to break your hardware. What I do now with the AHPC stocks is that I keep the leeward stock in its up position (out of the water) and as soon as I'm sailing away from the beach I have the locking rod of my luff rudder in my hand. Pressing down every one in a while to feel if the bottom is still there. As soon as I have about 2 or 3 feet of water below my keel line I quickly pull up my luff rudder board and then quickly swing it down again. The momentum of the board will then swing it down almost entirely, here the jamming action will keep my rudder down even when I really speed up the boat, however if I encounter another sandbar then the rudder is easily pushed loose again. Often this is a one-time action and I let go of the rod two have both hands available to work the mainsheet and the tiller to get through the larger surf that is further out. This way I have much improved steering without the need to lock down the system or to keep holding the system/lines/tillers to keep the rudders pressed down. This is something I could never do with my prindle stocks or even with various F18 stocks. I consider this to be a major advantage were I sail.


Disadvantages of the AHPC !

Well, in my opinion there aren't any serious disadvantages. But I will admit to the fact that the Hobie system is easier when you need to clear weeds often. However, the Nacra system or even any lock-down line system is worse then the AHPC stocks. The only line-lock down system that was better was a very special system as designed by Phill Brander himself. But I never seem a comparable system on any other boat, certainly not any production boats. It is also a much more complex system requiring many more parts and a bungee system inside the rear beam.

Disadvantage 2 (and that will be the last one) could be the fact that unlocking the system manually is easy when the skipper graps the rod in the middle and not on the stainless steel handle. You have to bend over the back of the boat a little bit farther. However I really don't see this as a problem as it is still easy to do, it disengages quickly and fully, and I don't know many situations where releasing the system manually is critical. You always have the option to let the system disengage automatically and to chose the time and spot where you want to clear the weed.

In my opinion ; these two disadvantages are rather minor points. It is not that the AHPC is bad in this respect, not at all actually, but rather that some other system is better then the AHPC system in this respect.In all other respects the AHPC is best. I think this is a pretty good score board for the AHPC setup.


For some info on how to properly lock down teh AHPC rod system go here :

http://www.ahpc.com.au/pdf/Using%20Smart%20Lk%20Snap%20System.pdf


I found that the following works best :

-1- Once clear of the beach, sandbars and surf; lift the rudderboard up and clear of the water then quickly push it down under gravity and pushing on the rod with some force. The board will swing all the way down, despite the water resistance. You are holding the end (handle) of the rid with only one hand.

-2- Move the rod down to the tiller with your hand on the handle placing the locking pin roughly on the lockigng plate )containing the locking hole)

-3- Wrap your fingers around the tiller arm while keeping the rod handle inside the palm of your hand. Now squeesh the handle towards the tiller arm, thus bending the locking rod a little.

-4- Move your hand about a little bit when squeeshing so the locking pin finds the locking hole. Let go of the rod and tiller when the pin is in the hole.

-5- When needed press down on the middle of the rod to push out any remaining bend. This will push down the rudderboard to its maximum forward position. When point -1- was done right then this action -5- should not be necessisary.


Disengaging :

-1- Grap the rod in the middle and pull upwards, this bends the rod a little and this is sufficient to have the pin snap out of the locking hole.

-2- throw the rod backwards in teh water over the rudder baord and have the first contact with the ground push the board up (this requires very little contact with the ground so no major risk of damage) or pull the board up by pulling on the rod itself. Of course I have set up my own rudders to jam inside the stock a little bit and so I often just disengage the rod and reach beneath the watersurface to give the board a short push to become unstuck.

-3- When pulling the board clear of the water, pull the rod all the way towards the locking plate for a lifted rudder and squeeh the locking pin as you would when engaging the system.

Wouter

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You told me I had McKenzie stock three times. LOL

Fair enough, but they are junk. Mine have already had to be overhauled due to some constructions issues.

I am no longer running the "stock"(as in came from factory) kickup system. My new system is bad butt. I will be able to bring, kick, or pop up the leeward rudder from the windward side.

Pictures and writeup will come after testing and making sure the system is 100% functional on my boat. It is already proven on various A cats in South FL.

I agree with everything Wouter has said above, so I won't go into great detail, he covered it very well. He did indeed demo his rudders for me on his boat, on the beach, we locked them down and then I smacked the rudder tips with my hand and they did pop up, as advertised. APHC did a very nice job on the rods, which is the single most critical peice of the system.

Two things are critical, 1. they have to pop up when you hit something hard (beach, sandbar) and 2. they have to stay down when you are racing and not hitting the beach! My Jav 2 (2002) eddition rudders were always popping up when I got the thing going fast, not good during a race, then they wouldn't come up if you beached it!

I saw the original Blade rods that Matt had on his boat back last spring, they had a very small diameter stainless adjuster screw at the end wich was prone to bending/breaking. I have not seen what he is using now but I know he was equally dissapointed with those early models and looking for something better.

The problem of having to go to the low side to unlock that rudder remains under either system. Simply driving it onto the beach and hoping it comes up is not an option, long term, it will damage the rudder and could rip it off the transom. At a minimum they require some advance planing. You must unlock one side, gybe, undo the other, or have the crew get over there and undo it, but when it's really blowing at the beach, and the surf is big, you had better get it done early on the way into shore.

On the way out, you can drive with one, tack, set the other one. Still, I love the Nacra system where you just lift the crossbar and both come up or down at the same time, or you can do one at a time. Is it so hard to do that in carbon? Maybe it's Pattent protected? What are they putting on their new A2?

We're getting to the point. EXCELLENT Writeup Wout. That was a great help to us all.
Points:
1. There is a big difference between performance on the AHPC Systems and McKenzies Clone system.
2. McKenzies were originally supplied on the Blade, but are being replaced by an improved system.
3. Robi had the McKenzies, but has replaced them with an improved system.
4. Wouter's home waters has more sandbars and less weeds than Florida.
QUESTIONS:
1. Is this modification the AHPC system or something else? IF it is, Please share. (Waiting for the Pictures.)
2. Is Robi's new "bad butt" system the same thing that is now supplied on the production Blades?
3. Do the new Blade 701 rudders still trip over sandbars and weeds?
4. Will this thread ever end without Wouter and Robi killing each other over minor points of language and misunderstandings?
Cary
Stirring up trouble, trying to get some answers, put us back on track, and defuse a little tension . . .
[color:"purple"] Hope my friend Sam Evans is well . . . [/color]

Purple? Who the hell EVER writes in PURPLE???

I did not see any tensions. I simply stated I did not like the AHPC's. Which is what I THOUGHT I had. I was wrong and since been corrected.

Then I stated that what I had is/was crap. The McKenzie setup that came with the boat. Matt McDonald knows about my discontent with them.

No my new setup is a modification to the McKenzie setup, it is not the new Blade setups.

I know that things are quiet at the moment, BUT, WHY mention S** E**** name. If S** ever comes back you will know why Cary is writing in "PURPLE"

OK, where's Chuck? He just bought a new Blade, has raced it a couple times and used to have a Tai Pan 4.9, he also has lots of experience on many other cats, including the Inter 20, so Chuck, what do you think on the rudder issue?

Hello, Chuck? Can you hear me Major Tom?? (he works for NASA)

I have a simple and effective procedure for that now and I must say that I'm quite satisfied with that while I do agree that some other systems like the Hobie/nacra F18 systems are very user friendly.

Pretty much what I do now it :

-1- Before entering the surf I park the boat and disengage the rods and throw both of them back into the water, over the rudderheads. The rudder boards stay down because of the mild jamming action I tuned into the system.

-2- I bear away and I just sail the boat through the surf with both rudder boards down. The forces on the boards because of steering seem to keep the boards down. As soon as the tips just ever so mildly hit bottom they become unjammed and float up. But that them I have cleared all sandbars and I'm sailing in knee deep water between the beach and the first sandbar.

A variation to this theme I use when singlehanding or when the waves are to much to comfortably park the boat.

-1- I plan an approach to the beach where I made one tack.

-2- Before I put in the tack I disengage the rod on the luff side and throw it back over the head of the board and into the water. This baord is then kept down by the friction between the rudderboard and the sides of the stock (mild jamming)

-3- I make a take and then aim for the landing spot on the beach.

-4- Right before I enter the surf or whenever I feel like it. I grap the rod on the new windward side and disengage that one and throw it back into the water. Both boards are now held down by the friction.

-5- I pump my way through the surf and often at some considerable speed. The rudders stay down till the first sandbar where the rudder tips hit the bottom and with only a very mild force kick-up the rudder boards. I can't overstate the mild force required to do so. The jamming is just enough to keep the boards down when sailing; any additional force is then enough to have the boards kick-up. I do not even feel the boat slow down when the boards kick-up. I don't feel anything; I just feel the load on the tiller suddenly increase and the steering becoming sluggish as a result of the rudders being horizontal.


With this AHPC system you pretty much disengage the lock-downs before you enter the surf. I know this sounds strange but it really works well. The friction in the system keeps the boards down while sailing through the surf. For some reason the rudderboards are very low drag on the Taipan and Blade F16. Speeding up the boat through the water doesn't seem to kick up the rudders, while a small force on the tip does. I've tested it on the beach and it is indeed a small force at the tip that is required. The stocks are also made in such a way that the jamming action only seem to happen when the board is almost all the way down. This is quite a ingenious idea.


I'll admit that new sailors will need to get used to handling the lock-down rod in a different way then more commonly excounter kick-up systems but after a few tries you get the hang of it and operating them is quite easy.

In august we do get quite alot of jelly fish along our coast line and sometimes, when hitting a large one, my rudder kicks-up. However I just give the tiller to my crew and instruct her to keep the boat depowered a bit. I then only need 2 to 4 second to set the rudder and lock it down again. That includes the leeward one. I need to go down to the leeward side but that only takes me a second and I only need 2 second the engage the system again. Pull-up, quickly push down again with force, squeesh and it is in.

Most of the time however I just cut throught the jelly fish. I see the rod bend, feel a slight thump go throught the boat and see the rudderboard move a little bit only to see the rod push the board back down again. It acts like it is spring loaded, the board can move a little bit when impacted and I feel this is beneficial in preventing damage.







The reason for having this rod system are different.

Lets be honest.


-1- It is very lightweight
-2- It is relatively cheap to make
-3- It hardly has any moving parts which makes it very dependable
-4- There is absolutely no play in the whole system (something I can not say of the Hobie/nacra F18 systems). This give crisp and tight feel of steerage.
-5- It doesn't seem to wear down or wear out over time. Other systems often need re-adjusting, this system really doesn't.
-6- There are no complex parts like little springs or adjuster crews.
-7- It is very easily made adjustable. A single threading and nut at one end of the rod is enough to make it fully adjustable. In this respect it is also very forgiving in the way of production accuracy. All parts maybe off by several millimeters and the system will still be working fine after adjusting the rod length. In case of the position of the locking plates or position of the protruding part on the rudderbaord, the "error" may even be centimeters.


But indeed, the best points about this system in my personal opinion are :

-1- absolutely no play in the whole setup. The baord is tight in the stock, it is always all the way down, it is not possible to have it sligtly out of trim and end up with significant luff or lee helm due to the inbalance. Steerage is accordingly crisp, precise and well balanced all the time.

-2- It doesn't need readjusting after it is tuned properly once. There are no components that can wear down, wear out or jam up due to dirt or salt. And if such dirt/salt would become a problem then this system is very easy to clean out. You have full acces to everything. Replacing any part is a breeze, any item can be disassembled by undoing only one thread/bolt. I really like the simplicity of the system and I think this adds to its robustness and dependability.


Actually this system was first pioneered by homebuilders; simply for the reason that it is very suited to homebuilding. The stocks used to be bend square aluminium tubes and the rod system can be made from a plain glassfibre rod and a few stainless steel bolts/nuts. All parts that are readily available.

I really like the fact that when need by I can personally jury rig a replacement for anything.

Wouter

Knock it off guys !

The deal was very clear. We will not give a certain person cause to post on this forum and this person will not post on the forum ever again.

Observe the conditions of the truce, please.

Anything and Everything can be discussed on this forum with the exception of S.E. or any statements that were made regarding this person in the past.

Wouter

I think Chuck had the older alu AHPC stock on his Taipan. The post 2003 AHPC stocks are noticeably better then their own (older) alu stocks as well. AHPC improved on the locking pin and plate as well as on the rod itself (adding heat shrink and an adjuster threading)

Wouter

Neither Robi's system or the replacement for the McKenzie setup are the AHPC setup.

I did see the setup that is going onto the EU Blades; actually a Taipan 4.9 sailor overhere bought these as a replacement for his older stype alu AHPC setup. I held and looked at the stock then once and they seemed pretty well done. This Taipan sailor has been sailing with them for a while now and is very content with them. I'm not sure wether the same setup is going onto the US blades.





Certainly not. I'm told that Robi's system includes a tube being laminated into the stern section. Probably to take a lock down line. This is a source of concern (leaks ?) and it is too expensive for production hulls. When done right it will be a fine system but from a economic point of view it is not attractive. And lets face it, the builder needs to earn a profit on these boats and we, the buyers, are not really willing to pay much more.

Wouter

Been trying to figure out the Color fonts on the forum for a long time, was just playing with effects. Wanted to set it apart from the rest of the real message, since it was sort of a tongue in cheek left handed joke.
I did not mean to offend nor bring trouble aboard, the tension in some of the posts just seemed to have a certain flavor reminicent of times best remembered as how not to behave . . .
Apologies to those who feel they need one, and Congratulations to those of your who saw the humor in it.

I suddenly feel very special as an owner of jen-you-eyen AHPC carbon rudder stocks. ...had no idea they were anything special...

Well, it sounds like you had better hide them!

I think it's the inherent design that is faulty.
With the all or nothing system, if the water is any shallower then Max rudder draft then, without question you loose the steering and control of the boat.

Great pics thanks!
So this system is adjustable?
I'd like to see how the bungee is tied in do you have any more pics?
I may buy a Taipan next week if I can get the rudder system sorted.

[quote
I may buy a Taipan next week if I can get the rudder system sorted.
[/quote]
Where are you located that you may buy a Taipan next week? Somewhere near SE USA would be tres cool!

You are talking about upper leg (or less) deep water here ! You really don't want to be sailing here.

When you run into such shallow water then the line system will disengage fully as well and you'll have exactly the same issues with respect to steerage.

I sailed with the line and kick-up cleat system for several years when I still was a cat sailing instructor and it is not my personal opinion that I was better off then in any way. As soon as you picked up speed the rudders would float up anyway.

And the trick with bungees pulling the boards down can be had with both systems. However these are also a good way to rid your sterns of your boat in a surf.

Wouter

With your “on off only” system you can’t operate the boat in water shallower then max. draft of the rudder so unless you are leaving from a dock you are at a major disadvantage over an adjustable design.

I leave from the beach and at low tide it’s 2 feet deep for a good 500 meters
to a drop off. No BFD.

With your system you’ll need to walk all the way out there and back likely damaging the reef as you go.

On the return your rudders will disengage all right but you’ll be without the helm and that’s outright dangerous oxymoron in my opinion.

I'd like to see more pics of the solution.. Thanks

Flying cat,

Were I sail I ALWAYS have to go out through a surf encountering about 3 sandbars before the bottom drop to a comfortable 2 to 3 mtr (and more) deepness.

At worse tide I also have to sail through a few hundred meters of shallow water. More often then not with some breaking surf on top of that. We do have easy days but I can count them on on hand per season.

I can assure you that I'm by no means a dock launcher.

I found that the conditions I'm sailing in, and Dutch conditions in general, are grossly underestimated by foreign sailors. I don't exactly understand why.






So people keep telling me. However, based on my personal experiences, this doesn't seem to be the case. I'm also of the generation that learned the sail any sailboat by the sails alone. No sailor overhere can use their rudders for a sizeable portion of hte road to deeper water while traversing the breaking surf. No hobie system, no nacra system, no system period allows you to partially set a rudder in our conditions. Hold down systems with a bungee cord pressing the tip of the rudder board to the ground are quickly disgarded overhere as in our surf condition you WILL be thrown (pushed) back by the surf. If your rudder is tounching the ground than the boat will ride up on its rudder and cause major damage to your sterns or break your rudders.

The motto in our surf is "Speed is everything !" . Pretty much we try to build up enough speed so that we punch through each (breaking) wave in the surf without coming to a full stop. All of us do this without locking down out rudders. We set out jibs relatively tight and with a very open mainsail. (alot of mainsail twist and the main traveller far out) We round p by sheeting in the main and we bear off by sheeting it out again. Pretty much all race catamarans are setup with some weather helm so the boats are balanced with a tight jib and a relatively open mainsail. We hold on to our tiller bars to engage the rudders when absolutely needed, but we steer mostly with sheeting our mainsail. Please note that we are often sailing with several meters a second like this. That is quite fast. Sailors of boarded boats set at least some 15 to 20 cm board as soon as they can. Without it a boarded cat is very difficult to put through the surf as it slides away to lee so much.


I trying to express that I've sailed for about 3 years with the line system as depicted (Ricks) on a KL18 Warp when I was a sailing instructor on this Dutch coastline. The KL18 was a skeg boat and these are more easy to sail through the surf than a boarded cat with round keellines. I can really say that I didn't notice any help from this system when going through the surf. The skegs, yes, rudder setup, not really. I did notice that the bloody hold down lines where always slipping through those ronstan cleats. We keep all our boats on the beach during the summer time and these lines become hard and smooth on the outside pretty fast. After several weeks of being out there the V-cleat would be insufficient to hold down the rudder when sailing at speed. You would notice this because the helm would get progressively sluggish and heavy when sailing. Eventually I would just park the boat out side of the surf, pull the rudders really tight, cleat the line and then tie it off behind the cleat really tight as well. The line would not slip anymore (nor would the rudders kick-up !) but I still would get some sluggisnes in the steering because the line would stretch a little bit with time. From my perspective you get a few bad aspects for hardly any good aspects in the surf. I also sailed the Cirrus Ocean (Recreational version of the Cirrus F18) with a similar system when I was an intructor. Same experiences there although the Cirrus system was better implemented. It also used those ronstan kick-up V-cleats.




What does BFD mean ?





Luckily we don't have any reefs or rocks formations at our shore line, however I have never walked my boat in our out in any conditions except total windlessness. And even then I most swam or peddled it in.

It may be wise to not make any assumptions in these cases. As far as I can tell my conditions pretty much mirror yours with a few minor differences like having sandbars instead coral reefs.





Please read my other posts on this topic more throrougly. I can do something with my rudder setup that can not be done with many others. I actually have far better garantee of steerage then any nacra/hobie or comparable system without risking my damage. Also the kick-up force with the rod engaged is alot more dependable than what I experienced with line systems. I found that line systems and this ronstan kick-up cleat can require quite alot of force before disengaging due to friction in the system and the build up of salt and dirt in the kick-upcleat. My rod system setup really doesn't have this problem.

Really, I have had experiences with several implementations of both systems and the post 2003 AHPC setup of the rod system is really better then any hold-down-line system with kick-up cleat I ever experienced. Without a doubt. With respect to shallow water and surf near the beach. Learn to sail and steer your boat without depending on your rudders much. No matter which lock-down system you use steerage is always slow and heavy when the rudders aren't fully down. Steering by using your sails effectively is both faster and more dependable. Learn to sail like that. Bungees to hold down your rudders so they are scrapping the bottom is in my experience a receipy for damage and worn down tips. And it won't give you the steerage you are looking for most of the way any way.

Wouter



I'd like to see more pics of the solution.. Thanks

Thanks for the information Walter I always enjoy your posts.

Just to clarified the new blade system works poorly as does everything pre 2003. How many new production boats is that anyway before they made the essential improvements?

The fellow with the new blade has to jury rig his new boat because the rudder system is less then adequate? That must be a major disappointment. How did it happen that they put these into mass production like this?

Thanks for the advice..

Does anyone use lift up daggerboard rudders like many skiffs and dinghies. I've just broken one of my old blades (it is becoming a habit unfortunately) and want to replace the old swing type rudders and rudder boxes with a new system that works.

Stealth marine uses a lift up rudderboard. It has T-foils as well.

go to www.stealthmarine.co.uk

There are also some pics of their new rudderboxes on this forum. But you will have to "search" for them

Wouter

Here's the thread:

2006 Stealth F16

And here's those sexy new rudders:

Additional benefit is that you can steer the boat when it is upside down.

Ah, but the carbon mast means they don't go upsidedown!

(edit cos of grammar catastrophe...)

Speaking of rudder systems...How much "kick-in" angle should the tillers have off the hull centreline to mimic ackerman steering (where outside rudder in a turn is angled less than the inside rudder)? My old system seemed very heavy and I was wondering if anyone had a rule of thumb for this design aspect...

It is always good to get the most recent information from the origin source:
The way the Dotan kick up rudder works

I use the Dotan system on our XCat, one thing I realy like is that if you sail with one rudder up and one down, you just lift and lower the crossbar in the centre and it puts the up rudder down and the down rudder up! Do the other systems do that?



Gareth

I don't want to put a damper on things here, but once again the Dotans were tried on a new design (G-cat F16) and the system broke and was reported to be too flexible to work well on a spinnaker catamaran. I seem to remember similar reports from the time some 18HT's were using them. Although indeed some like this setup.

Wouter

I had a Dotan system on my M 6.0. If you sail in an area where you can put them down and not worry about ever having to sail with them in the kicked up position I'd rate them a 4 on a scale to 10.

Some of the problems. When kicked and trying to steer they flex a lot. The rudder blades float so when they kick they raise so high as to make it impossible to steer. You don't want to be around me when that happens. ( I understand why they float) If you snug up the pivot screw you can stop this from happening but then they become difficult to operate. The screws that are part of the pivot mechanism bent. I also broke a rake adjusting screw when hitting the bottom. A lot of small parts.

my 0.02

Wouter:

Could you please tell who made a test on G-cat F16? Where is it possible to get more information about it?
Maybe you can recall 18HT sailors as well, it would be very interesting to get feedback directly from them.
Thank you!




catman:

Thank you for sharing the experience.
We assume that when person launches a cat, he mainly controls a boat with the sails(mainsail & jib). Rudders are used as a "steering helper" for sails. Finally, when the water is deep enough - sailor lowers the blades.

Rudder blade floats because it is very light. We consider the low weight as an advantage however, as many sailors are very much concerned about the weight of every boat part. Generally, we can put the lead inside in the bottom blade area. So rudders will be more suitable for leasure sailing.

Probably screws bent sometime after you tried to make some alterations in the setup(snug up the pivot point etc..) So after these alterations there were some freedom introduced between the rudder box and the blade. In this case, there is a very big chance that the screws will bend... Thus, it is strongly recommended not to make changes in the factory setup without asking for advise from the Dotan.
What rudders do you use now?
What will happen to them if you hit the bottom(like it was with Dotan rudder)?

Brett Moss and Hans Geissler

I think you can contact Hans via his website :

http://www.g-catmultihulls.com/

Wouter

Wouter:
This is an interesting thing to know...
Last time I heard about Hans Geissler he was going to race equipped with Dotan rudders.

Second thing is that Dotan rudder boxes have been used on G-Cat 21' during some time. So far there haven't been any problems reported about weak rudder boxes from the owner. Something makes me believe that rudder loads on G-cat 21 are higher than on G-cat 16.




I shall definitely try to get an update from them.

Friend,



Yes, they raced them on the new G-cat F16 and it was reported that they broke and proved to be not stiff enough. Now we can talk around these rudders for ever but the that doesn't change what happened.

I don't care much about what works on the G-cat 21. I think most of us are only interested in what works on F16's.

Now I'm not saying that the rudders are at fault here. I'm just relaying what reached my ears. Don't shoot the messenger, take this offline with Hans and Brett.

Wouter

Dotan,
In the picture you included in your post, which appears to be the aft end of a G-cat, the rudder looks to be tilted off center (gudgeons not aligned properly?). And, in addition to that, the the rudder blade itself appears to be twisted a bit from top to bottom.

Wouter:
There are 1000 and 1 reasons why the rudders break - negligence, skipper errors, improper "center of the lateral plane", defects in workmanship, weakness of the materials etc. If the problem is on our side, we would like to address this problem and solve it. Consequently.. in order to find out where the problem is, we have to get feedback from every sailor with such experience and analyze all the facts.



Mary:
You are right, as you can see in the photo, the rudder is tilted off-centre. However, there is not a problem with this and the gudgeons are aligned properly. This setup(when gudgeons are not centered) gives a small, positive effect when taking into consideration sailing at heel.
In this case it is very important to preserve rudder parallelism.

Without any doubt, the rudder blade is not twisted. It looks like an optical distortion or something like this.

uh-oh Hans is busted.

Dotan,
Can you explain what you mean by "rudder parallelism"?

Possibly rudder parallelism is not a good word.
When you cross the rudder blades in horizontal plane, rudder blade section chords(red lines on the photo) should be parallel between themselves.

I beleive that the ABA AMRO boats found that 2 degrees toe in on their rudders gave the best results, would this be the small for cats.

Wouter,

You arrogant pompous, lying scumbag.

I don't have a "deal" with anyone, certainly not YOU.
There is no "truce", or agreement or understanding.
I chose not to post because I was bored.
I will post on any forum I want to.
I will post about anything I want to.

Who do you think you are?
As we repeatly told you when Rick White first created this forum, YOU ARE NOT IS CHARGE.
This is not YOUR forum.
The people who choose to post here ARE NOT UNDER YOUR CONTROL.

Perhaps it is time I resumed posting.
The newbies should know the true history of you and the f16 "class".
Like how you stole a set of Taipan 4.9 plans, had a pair of hulls made with a few minor above the waterline changes and called it "YOUR" design.
You called it a tiafoon and never did pay the license fee to the real designer.


BRING IT ON !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Damn, its alive. And just because of something Zuhl posted. He hasn't posted here since Feb 13th, 2006. (Zuhl that is).

abuahuauhauhahuabuuauahahahahahah look whos back! LMAO! some one sponsor the popcorn! LOL

Maybe someone has found a way to post, using an existing forum members ID <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Sam,
At Wouter's behest, I contacted AHPC about your charges, and Greg Goodall replied to me as follows:


I hope this sets the record straight.

OK I can take neither blame nor credit for this.
As to posting, I've been working on my monohull all year, Computer fritzy half the time.
Looking forward to seeing you guys at Spring Fever's 10th Anniversary this spring.
CARY
C&C 24 "Caliente"
SEACATS

OOOOOOOOOOOH!! so who is the liar now? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> I am sure Sam wont reply he has selective reading. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Ill be waiting for the nasty private message Sam. You know how I do it, I am your crying shoulder <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />




ps: I love this forum. Nothing like reading good ol fashion Hobie bashing, Nacra greatness, fad boats and how the polynesians found land by reading wave intervals <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

So Cary, long time no type.

Are you denying trying to stir up a little trouble? It just took a little longer than you figured.

<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Not me stirring up trouble. I'm probably one of the few people on this forum that call Sammy my friend. Glad he's OK.
You ever get your Boat?