Robi, here a pic of my skipper trap setup

It is in its "light weather storage" position = away from the trampoline and far forward. In strong winds I don't run it through teh ring near the sidestays but fix the hook to the dogbone right away it comes up through the trampoline. I'm using the same 3 mm dyneema line for my trap lines as I do in my mainsheet system. I actually swear by this line. It takes 500 kg before breaking and it weights less than water so it floats. Steel wires weight 7 times the weight of water per given volume. I also use this line as spi pole support lines. It is too thin to use as trim line, but its is again in the second and third stage of my cascaded downhaul system. It is rather flexible you see and this improved the eefficiency of these systems alot !

If there is any problem with this setup it is that it may sometimes be difficult to unhook. At least with the trapeze harness I use. You don't have the flexing of the bungee to give you some extra slack to flick it out of the harness hook. I know what alot of others are saying about this setup but they really don't know what they are talking about. I have it on my boat, I tried it and I raced with it. With expensive blocks it may be better but I consider everything from a cost to performance perspective and this setup scores high. And there are also less components that can break or foil up. Found that reducing the number of components used with both make the boat clean and easy to sail and make it more dependable. If not more inexpensive.

The trapeze for the crew doesn't have the jam cleat adjusted and is setup more along the lines of the conventional system. A small block is at the end to the trap line and a line with jammer and bungee on one end and a dogbone on the other.

I can really recomment the plastic hooks at the end of the bungee cord as soon in the picture. They give excellent functionality, better then sisterclips and alot cheaper as well. Also going form "light weather storage" position to heavy weather position is really simple. Unhook and let the hook slip from your hand. The hook is too big to go through the eye in the trampoline. Than you grap it again and hook it onto the dogbone again. Finito ! It is also great when putting the boat on or off the trailer.

Wouter

Wouter,

Do you know - will 1/8" Yale Pulse line (Spectra core; 800lb. tensile) suffice for trap lines (i'm about 150lbs.) ?

Paul

I personally distrust spectra. Everybody tells me Dyneema and spectra are the same fibre, but I don't believe that. All who have used spectra as trap line seem to have snapped it. Also I ONLY use 500 kg line. I can get 300 kg line that is supposed to be 3 mm thick but is actually 2.5 mm thick and that one has snapped on me in varying uses as well. So be careful with cheap imitations. Get the ral thing ! It works. As far as I can tell I only use Marlow 3 mm 500 kg line.

800 lbs = 363 kg and is probably to little. Remember that the knots and such do degrade a line to about 50%-60 % of its nominal strength. And you also want about a factor of 2 as safety margin to withstand G-forces and shock loads.

If you really want Paul I can buy and send you the stuff. You'll need to transfer the money to me up front though.

What I did with my own line is buy plastic swages and stitch the line around it. Than I slide a handle on the line and use a figure 8 knot to position is. A loop on the bottom end with a fishers hitch is used to attach the adjusting jam cleat or a small block. This hitch is easy to undo and you can replace the block at any time without using any tools and it can never get undo due to vibrations. Added benefit ? You can cut the line with your sailing knife = added safety !

Ohh and another advantage is the fact that because it is so light you only need very mild tension on the bungees to keep it straight and it won't bang and rube again you mainsail.

I've been using these dyneema traplines for years and so too several befriended crews. We all swear by it. However I must say that both Phill and Kirt used some line they could get locally (spectra) and these both failed. So I think you must look for the right line. And I think the 500 kg is the one

Wouter

Thanks for the threa. I still have to get a hold of a few jam cleats before I can start engineering anything.

Thanks for the info. Wouter ! I saw an Acat sailor's spectra trap line snap in Long Beach this winter - brand new line / weird...I'd keep the wire but notice it rubs the main and pulls at the stitching...

PK

Spectra line really does not like being tied or shock loads. I've snapped loads of spectra lines flying/jumping with my power kites so I now use 4mm dyneema as above and it's never broken even with 6 kites up (6 foor flexi-foils) in loads of dind and hi-impacts.

I do not trust spectra as a shroud/trap line at all.

First:
We discussed this design in the "Will this adjustable trapeze system work?" thread last month.
Robi posted a picture of his design, which is functionally identical to your design, and the consensus was that it did not work properly.
Even Bob Curry, who is a world class sailor and has won more races than you have attended, stated so IN BOLD.

So when you tack you swing in off the wire, lean forward and grab the little bungee hook off the tramp, hook it to the dogbone, struggle to unhook the dogbone, move to the other side of the boat, struggle to hook the dogbone, unhook the bungee hook, and jump out on the wire?
And you think that is easier and more failure resistant than, swing in off the wire, knock the dogbone off with a swipe of the hand, move to the other side of the boat, hook the dogbone, and swing off the boat?

Your system is more expensive than the one I use.

You keep dredging up old, failed designs to make yourself appear "innovative".
You only hurt your class and make a fool of yourself.

A few old, simple rules:
"Those who fail to learn from the past are doomed to repeat it"
"To become the best, you must learn from the Best"


Second:
"I personally distrust spectra. Everybody tells me Dyneema and spectra are the same fibre, but I don't believe that.
That is probably the most arrogant statement you have ever made (and that covers alot).
So now you are a chemical engineer who KNOWS that absolutely everybody in the line and rigging business is lying.
That there is some kind of global conspiracy to trick you into I don't know what.


Third:
Swiftcord is a blended line of Dyneema SK75 and Cordura woven in a standard 12 braid by Maffioli. http://www.gottifredimaffioli.com/base/prodotti/ukprodotti.html
Excel D12 is a pure Dyneema SK75 woven in a standard 12 braid by Marlow. http://www.marlowropes.com/cordage/yachting/downloads/dinghies_and_sports_boats.pdf


Fourth:
When referring to the "taper" in a sheet or line, it means the length of the section which is smaller in diameter than the section which is handheld.
Layline has had it in their catalog for 15-20 years- http://www.layline.com/llf/llpages/htmlp2origa/page2.htm
And Annapolis Performance Sailing- http://www.apsltd.com/Tree/d3000/e910.asp
"Buried taper" refers to physically taperring the end of a line to be buried in a splice. Usually only 1-2 feet long.

Sam,

Why keep having a go at Wouter? While a lot of his information is often difficult to understand and sometimes wrong or based on 'suspect' parameters, his intentions are basically well meant.



Yes, on this occasion his trapeze system is not the best around, but 'a fool'? I think that's a bit strong....

Unlike many, Wouter is prepared to spend time and effort in assisting new sailors, encouraging existing ones and promoting the relatively new F16 class. By all means disagree with his views or calculations, even engage him in argument, but perhaps lay off the personal attacks?

Conciliatorily yours,

Did I ever say that it is the best system around ?

I said that I think its scores high on the "performance to cost" ratio.

Meaning it works well for the required investment. But in stronger terms, I'm personally not considering upgrading it, despite the fact that I know the more conventional system very well. I really do not encounter all the problems that are "suppost" to be linked to this system. And I think it has a few advantages to the "more conventional" system. One being that you don't drop of the side of the boat when not all slack has been taken out of the bungee loaded part.

Now I have a good trapeze hook on my harness but that doesn't explain everything. Or maybe the guys that Sam refers too need to upgrade to a better harness ? Main point of the discussion however is that I DON'T have the problems that others seem to have with this system. I leave it to the reader to make up his mind to what is causing this.

Wouter

Hi all,

I again would like to stand up in defence of this type of adjustable system. I have been using it for years and have tried to go to non adjustable systems which were present on boats I purchased. But I go back to adjustable every time. I have been trapezing for some 15 seasons now without a change and trapped for many years before on and off. On Dinghies and Cats, alot of it single handed and I think it would be fair to say I do more sailing than the average weekend warrior with only the few professionals spending more time on the water. Anyway this is starting to sound like boasting, so on to the Pros and Cons.

Pro's.
Being able to adjust yourself to the optimum position for quick movement in and out, whilst offering the ability to move to a position of maximum leverage.

The ability to trapeze earlier by lifting very high which reduces leverage. Meaning you don't have to swing in and out as much to keep the boat in optimum trim, disturbing the boat less.

The ability to trapeze at the same hieght regardless of where you are standing along the side of the boat, again allowing for maximum or minimum leverage whichever is required. Most often the further you stand back the higher you trap with other systems due to limited range of adjustment.

Easy unhooking due to lack of upward tension on hook handy for busy high speed tacks in strong winds.

Con's.
Lack of upward tension on trap hook can cause accidental un hooking, particularly with some hooks.

I am currently experimenting with a very light bungee between cleat and ring to give a tiny amount of upward pull. Also you don't want the bungee that holds the trapeze at side of boat to tight or heavy, as this can pull ring off hook.

Extra rope hanging around.

Small bungee on tail of rope taking it back to handle can help if you find it a problem.

Yes accidental unhooking has caused me a couple of capsizes in recent years, but this is the fault of my present hook, it didn't happen on previous hook.

One of the top Mossie sailors recently rigged a new boat and for the first time is using a adjustable system, after I suggested it. He now swears by it and said it has improved his ease of tacking along with the other benefits.

It may be a carry over from my mono sailing and is certainly in the minority in cats, but alot of dinghy and skiff sailors see something in it to. Most 18' skiffs I have seen use a similar system and crew pressures don't come much greater than on these boats.

Ultimately different strokes for different folks, it doesn't make one wrong.

Regards Gary.

To each his own but if you sail with crew (I know Gary doesn't) you may want to consider getting rid of the metal dog bones and get some of the coated wire rings instead.

I about took my crew's teeth out with the metal dog bones when coming in off the wire and releasing it too fast! It flew up and hit him in the mouth...twice!

Ahh, but that can't happen with the system in the picture (my boat) while it can happen with the more conventional system. With system in the picture the dogbone is always pulled both sideways and downward, never upward. It can't fly up as with the more conventional system.

Wouter

A fall back option I had (in case the system didn't work well enough) was to put a small bungee ALONG the trap line above the handle. This would pull the whole lower section slightly upward without complicating the system. Of course I'm using flexible dyneema line and not stainless steel wire. It may not work with wire.

Just an idea.

Wouter

I think Sam and Wouter are secretly lovers. They go at it as if they were married......

The no-cut system that Catsailer dot com has is simple and effective, gives adjustment IF you need it.

On my new boat I installed non adjustable traps because there is no need to adjust, same skipper, same crew. I use the stainless dogbone and ty off on the circular portion. That gives me about 6" difference between high and low.

Jalani,
You would prefer that everyone allow "wrong or based on 'suspect' parameters" advice go uncorrected?
You would prefer that a trusting person who comes to this site expecting tried and true advice, be given recomendations which cause (according to Gary) " a couple of capsizes"?
Is that the purpose of this OPEN FORUM?
To be Politically Correct and not embarrass anyone for their bad advice and allow the newbies to damage their boats or be injured?
NO!!!
An open forum allows everyone to speak and the flaws and errors and facts will be brought out by the participation of many different people with a variety of skill, success and education. (sounds like Democracy to me)
To allow one or two persons to decide what is "true", based upon their own agenda,is a Socialist dictatorship.

His intentions are not "well meant".
He is egotistical, egomaniacal, narcissitic, pompous, self-absorbed, self-centered, self-centered, self-indulgent and vainglorious.

What would you call a person admits his design causes problems, only one other person admits to using that design (but is changing), but insists on using it?

KW,
We can always tell when you are losing an argument.
You start some B.S. like "performance to cost" ratio.
There are no "expensive blocks" involved.
I have never seen anyone use "sister clips" for trap lines, only plastic hooks or tied directly on.
The only cost involved is the bungee being 2 feet longer.
On a boat that cost over $10,000, I don't think anothe $2.00 is going to break anyones bank account.

You already admitted to "the problems" "linked with this system" such as difficulty hooking and unhooking.
What "advantage"?
What "drop to the side of the boat" are you talking about?
What is holding you up and then allows you to"drop"?

The conventional system allows the skipper to sit at the rear beam, pull the trap back towards them, hook up, without having to lift up, and slide out on the wire.

You don't actually think that you have a better harness than the "guys" (professional sailmaker, Tybee 500 racer, Tornado racer, etc) do you?

Yes, YOU DO have problems.
You admitted it.


Gary,
My comments have nothing to do with an adjustment system of any kind.
Some very fast, successful people like adjusting, some like simple.
Go to Murrays http://www.murrays.com/archive/49.pdf to see pictures of trapeze adjustments kits.
You can see the tension bungee in the pictures.

Sam, if you want a tally, our skippers trapeze is similar to the one Wouter presented pictures of. Is it the best one? No, but it works adequately.. We have choosen to spend our time on other areas to go faster, but perhaps we will care enough to change it next season.

Nobody minds you disagreeing with Wouter or others, but you would be taken a lot more seriously if you used a less personal style in your writing. Would be better "netiquette" as well IMHO.


If thats the general view you in the US have on socialism, it certainly explains a lot