Question for the group organizers

The F16 concept promotes the fact that they can be sailed in either 1 or 2 up equally well. I have experience it and never heard any contray coments. Relative to performance, Wouters long winded computations, Several differnt yardstick tables, and a quick look at results of some races, looks to me that they in fact run nearly equivalent in either configuration as well. Close enough in my opinion that the skill level of the driver is the dictating factor.

Should we as a class dictate they they can race head to head and are equivalent in scoring. Given the fact in the US they are separate on the Portsmouth tables, we do not get scored together. Having 2 configurations now appears like there is just more random X boats on the water. We are trying to grow a class and unfortunately the heard mentality often comes into play on how people perceve a classes participation. We would like to show that there is paticpation, but if we split the fleet based on set-up, it looks like nobody showed.

Looking for some feedback, cause this could make a big difference in jump starting our class at least in the US, as we do not have a base of existing boats like the mozzies etc.

Matt

Until these recent threads on this subject, I did not even know there was any question about it. I thought the F16 class was the F16 class.

It has been very disturbing to me to find out that some people seem to think there are TWO F16 classes, one for sloop and one for uni. I thought they were both part of the same class and raced together boat for boat and I thought that was the big selling feature of the F16.

So did I Mary, until I raced Daytona. The harken series folks didnt score us all as a F16 class (NOT that it matters to me, I am not competing in the series, but this affected others) They had Hollis as a separate F16. So the F16 class race was dropped due to we didnt have atleast four "F16s" We only had three F16 sloops and one F16 Uni.

Then I took a hard look at the numbers and that is where I found the factor that differentiates us.

I dont understand why, but I guess it has to do with number assigning. Maybe? Kinda sorta? or even category names, UNI/SLOOP?

My question is do we want the F16 class either UNI or SLOOPED numbered equal? In other words first over the line wins? Or do we just want to drop the Uni/Sloop from the class?

I am confused on this matter.

Most regattas they do not give you your own class unless you have a minimum of five boats. If you don't have five, they assign you to Portsmouth classes.

Its not about starting line assigment. The majority of the F16 members at that regatta wanted to be put in with the majority of the fleet. We didnt want our own start.

I am just saying that for scoring purposes, specifically the Harken series, the race did not count. According to them we only had three boats and NOT four. They had the uni separate from sloops.

Before that, I thought Uni and Sloops could be dropped into the same pot. I guess not. Then after studying the numbers, I assume this is happening because of the diference in rating numbers between the setups.

To be considered ONE big class either UNI and or sloop wouldnt the rating have to be the same for both setups?
Woudnt this require changing the rules as well?

I didn't say anything about having your own start. I said your own CLASS. If you all register as F16, and if you make sure the race committee knows that you are racing as a formula class, Portsmouth ratings are irrelevant. You are racing the same as though you were one-design.

But, as I say, most regattas require five boats to be considered a class. And if you do not have enough boats to be scored as a "class," they WILL go by the respective Portsmouth ratings of uni and sloop when scoring you within the Portsmouth class.

By the way, if that particular regatta was accepting four boats as a class, then it was the fault of the F16 sailors for not telling the organizers that you were all racing as a class and explaining that that is how the F16 class works.

Why don't you ask the harken organizors this question.

What happens when a Hobie Tiger sailor shows up with big sails and insists on sailing at 308 as a Hobie Tiger one design.... Do they include him in as an F18 for their series?

The answer should be... NO, the class is NAF18 and the rule is. xxx (see where ever they post their class rule) and NO you don't measure in so you can't be scored as an F18.

The sailors agreed that the class will be NAF18 and they will use the published NAF18 rule set... Nobody else should have much to say about your class rules.

Classes in the US Sailing structure are self regulated or regulated by the builders. The fact that a portsmouth rating is assigned to all of the configurations that you could sail the boat is just a matter of convience for the PRO and scorekeeper and the sailor... It's and easy way to tag the boat configuration... for example Nacra 6.o with NE spin. or Hobie FX1 two up and no spinaker (its a racing class of one boat in the USA... 4 more like Steve B and he also has a class)

Another example, The Dart 18 class rules used to state that the Sloop and Uni are part of the same class and can be scored as one class. Indeed the Canadian Dart Association conducts their nationals this way. (Mind you... IT DOES NOT HAVE TO BE TRUE FOR IT TO BE A VALID CLASS) Years ago, the Hobie 18 Magnum and the Hobie 18 were viewed as seperate classes even though they never proved to differ in performance. My point is a class is a social construct and if everyone involved agrees on the definition... so be it.

If you can point to your published rule set... then it should not an issue for the Harken series... Hell you could require a naked hula girl on every spin pole to be a class member and they shouldn't have any complaints. Those who refuse... don't belong to your class... they are classless (grin)!

Mark

Mark, that all sounds right. That's why the F16 class has to get its act together in these early stages of trying to get a class going.

Count me in the group that felt like everything was allright.

I've raced in both setups and on a first in wins basis, no problemo.

If I wanted to then I could ask to be rated differently from a sloop but really I don't see the point in doing that. There is just too little in it.

With respect to the Daytona race, the Harken race boys were quite clear and flexible in this case. They said that IF Hollis would accept racing of the D-PN for the sloop (while singlehanding) then they WOULD consider these 4 F16's as being one single class and score Daytona in the Harken series. Has anybody contacted Hollis and ask if he is okay with that ?

This thing could be sorted out by one simple phone-call or e-mail.

On the other hand Hollis can hold on to his slower singlehanding handicap if he wants too. The racing was in an open (handicapped) fleet and he has every right, under the PN rules, to sail of this singlehanded handicap that is available to him.

So I think it all comes down to all F16's guys hooking up on the beach and see whether you all race first in wins or all take your chances with the individual handicaps. If agreement is reached on the first choice than WE as the sailors need to notify the Race-committee of this. I really don't think they would object, lets face it, we would be asking to be scored under a faster handicap, why would they object.

I really don't see the problem here.

Besides how big is the rating difference between 66.4 and 65.3 ? only 1.7 %

Neglectable in my opinion.

If anything PN is proving how comparable to two setups are in reality. Quite remarkable given the large differences in overall weight etc.


Wouter

Yep, that was my take on things as well.

I really don't understand what suddenly changed.

Wouter

Good topic to bring up. Here's my thoughts:

When there are enough F16s (either rig) at a regatta to justify our own start, score everyone boat for boat. I'd be willing to invite the I17Rs, Fx-1s, H17 w/spin, and other similar boats to jump in also and sail boat for boat.

When there aren't enough F16s or when sailing in a big event (like Alter cup qualifier or Harken series), let's just sail in the open class and live with whatever the rating system the RC is using. If in the UK or Europe, those systems currently favor the sloop (ie it's rated slower); in the US, uni rigged is currently favored by the ratings (ie it's rated slower).

Too bad you don't have a legitimate North American Class Association to sort things like this out.

In a one hour race at an average of ten miles per hour, a boat travels 52,800 feet.
An advantage of 1.7% equals 1 minute or 898 feet.
That is 56, 16' boat lengths.
That is not a negligible (neglectable ) difference.

Some years ago this "dragon" raised its ugly head with three different classes of "one design" cats that we were manufacturing.
To keep things short I will only relate about one of them. (although the same/similar applied to all three)
We manufactured a 5m cat that could be sailed one up on trapeze cat rigged or two up on trapeze as a sloop rigged.
Before we released it for commercial sales we fully tested it in both forms sailing cat and sloop against each other for several months and although in it's different configurations it performed differently on different points of sail and wind strengths, we found that over a full range of courses, wind and sea conditions its performance in either configuration was not detectably different enough to warrant any difference in rating. That didn't stop "the powers to be" at that time from allocating different yardsticks for the two different configurations which had the same detrimental results for them at regattas (being placed as different classes) The Association that had formed around these cats decided that this was just not good enough and wrote to the yachting association responsible for the yardsticks to point this out to them and "insist" that all future ratings for this cat, in either form -cat rigged or sloop - had to be the same. With that pro-active representation from the "official" association of the class the yachting authorities readily agreed and the problem was solved.

The National Class Association argument is spurious in the context of a new class isn't it? If the INTERNATIONAL Class Association and therefore its members believe that 'an F16 is an F16 is an F16' whether one or two-up and can race on a first-in-wins basis, then is it not a simple matter to inform RC's and handicapping authorities that that is the case?

I too did not know that there was a problem and have been racing at my club on the same handicap in either config. Before I bought my boat I was aware that the two setups were minorly different on handicap but read the info on the class as meaning that sloop could race uni boat-for-boat in F16 races.

As Mary points out, in a regatta the RC can do whatever they want as regards overall position in a handicap fleet, but if they are in formed that F16's race each other without h'cap and there are enough of them to constitute a class under the rules of the regatta, then a separate set of results for just F16's can be generated with no time correction. I have found RC's to always be very helpful in these situations - after all, they sail boats too you know

I guess I'm totally in agreement with Eric - the more the merrier as far as I'm concerned, and if the ratings are only 1-2% apart, then skill and ability will come to the front!

Good point. The international class will not jump in to solve such a local issue. I was under the impression that various sailors were forming such a local US class association. Alot of fuss was made about such a thing only a few months ago.

But even without such an association I think this "problem" is easily solved. Just notify the Race committee that you guys are all racing of the fastest handicap (either the sloop or uni handicap, whichever is the fastest) and just do it.

The F16 class rules are clear enough on this point. No minimum crew weight and no obligation to use a full set of sails.
They even explicitly mention both the doublehanded and singlehanded use.

I think we are CREATING a problem over actually having a problem here. There is nothing and nobody preventing us from racing both setups as first in wins. No class rules, not the international organisation and certain not the Race committees in question. In reality the only party that can put a cross through it all are the individual owners. If they decided they want to take their chances with a marginally slower handicap then there is not much you can do. But this is, as Darryll mentioned, an internal family (class) matter. And also not one that any association can solve, the association is not going to force anybody to sail in a way they don't want to.




And how many inches is that ?

It is also silly to look at this problem in units of lengths. For example if your boatspeed is only 5 miles per hour than suddenly your distance disadvantage is halved !

It is better to look at it from a time perspective. On the assumption that the US D-PN is right ! (A hugely important assumption, because other rating systems do not agree with it). The time difference between both makes after being a full hour on the race course is 60 seconds (1 minute) with (in this case) the sloops being rated as faster.

I challenge anybody to finish within a minute of the leader after an hours worth of racing in any condition. You will actually find that this a VERY narrow window to hit after an hour of racing, that is if you are even close to the leader to begin with. You will very often find that you are either the leader yourself or you are more than a minute behind.

While doing this test please also note how far in front the leader is (you are). You will find that even a 60 second gap will appear to be only a very short gap. A minute under the shower may seem like a long time, a minute on a catamaran race course isn't. Hell, alot of sailors have trouble crossing the start-line within a minute of the signal.

So the net effect of this handicap difference in the final standings is in most cases zilch.

Now some sailors feel that even a single second is a noticeable or even significant difference, they won't accept any difference between rating numbers even as small as 0.1 point. But of course by vitue of the way D-pn ratings are created we will never have equal rating numbers for both setups. Hell, if we would create 2 seperate D-pn's for the sloop version after splitting the available race data through the middle then we would see a larger rating swing then that. Even when both data groups are taken from exactly the same boat and setup. This is a natural occuring statistical phenomenon.

I dare wager that a large portion of the difference between the two setups is caused by the fact that two different groupings of data were used to create either rating. I refer to my example of throwing a true dice. Even if the dice is true you can't expect to hit the theoretical average when actually throwing it 10 times and taking the average. And more importantly, you can't even expect to hit the SAME average as the first time when throwing the dice another 10 times. In the same way the D-PN handicap numbers work. The fact that they are so close to one another is actually statistically supportive of the two setups actually being equal performant around the course. But I won't tire you with the calculations in this case.





A minute is a minute, the usage of distances is just confusing as they are fully dependent on the ASSUMED average speed.

The rest is just a personal weighing of the what a minute on the water is.

I for one couldn't care less about such a theoretical minute especially not since my fellow American F16 sailors are already sailing off a handicap that is 4.5 % (161 sec = almost 3 minutes) slower than what I race off overhere. (I race off the F18 rating = 62.5 in the US D-PN).

You can all look up my results and I'm not doing any worse than the US sailors. Gary in Australia is sailing of a rating similary faster than ANY US D-PN and he is doing the best of us all. John Alani in the UK is singlehanding of a rating no less than 8.5 % faster than the US sailors and even he is reporting to do just fine. That is how little 1 or 2 % rating number difference matters on the actual race course.

In nearly all races, a 60 minute extra hit or benefit PER HOUR racing (=only 30 seconds or so in typical bouy race)won't raise or drop a crew more than 1 place in a 20 boat scoring fleet. In about halve of the races it will place them at exactly the same placing as without such a extra hit or benefit.

That is the reason why I call a 60 sec/hour difference (1.7 %) in the HANDICAPPED performance neglectable (or negligible)

You just have to hit the line right on time, look for clean air, sail fast and not make (m)any mistakes. This is a FAR greater challenge then most sailors think and that is why most sailors don't come within a minute of the leader in the final results. It's these things that make or break your race and having a 1 or 2 % benefit in handicap number doesn't make these things any easier.

Wouter

Your post made me remember one regatta were I personally went to the Race Committee (RC) to ask them to take us off the slow boat course and put us on the fast boat course. Actually the RC had devided the boats over the slow and fast course on their handicap ratings. With our ratings being equal to the F18's we should have been placed on the fast course but the RC simply didn't believe that any 16 footer could be that fast. So I had to convince them that they'd better believe that the F16's were just that fast. They looked at me with some disbelieve, but luckily I knew some of the RC personally (they were old club members of mine) and they knew that I wouldn't just make things up.

So after soem discussion the RC placed us on the fast course and scored us with the official F16 Texel rating that is equal to rating of the F18 boats. Here the F16's raced a fleet of mostly F20's and F18's with some FX-ones and F16's.

And God smiled on the F16 class that day as, sure enough, an F16 crew won that class in this 2 day regatta ! I think the winning F16 crew took line honours in 4 out of 6 races that weekend. One race they DSQ-ed (strike-out) and 1 race they came 12th (if I remember correctly).

Nothing spells "Told you so !" as much as that.

I think that next time I won't have to ask the RC to put us on the big bouys course.

Wouter

Hi all,

there is no problem as far as I can see, F16 sailors are learning about how they want to race from experience, as we get to know each other at events, we can talk it out and decide on how we want to race when looking at requirements of the sailing instructions, reffering to number of boats for class etc.

At alot of regattas in Vic. the Mossies as a group approach organisers to race in the class or division as a group if they wish. This is of course easier now that Mossies have same Yardstick one or two up, but it did come up again when we started racing with spin. At some regattas even though the yardstick is 4.5 different with Spin, they have allowed us to race as a class and apply yardstick within the class. Which has allowed Mossies to show numbers as one of the largest classes.

Actualy the class that most closely resembles the F16 without a spinnaker, the Taipan 4.9's, race as a class at some regattas in one or two up configuration and their VYC yardstick is not the same, one up 76.5 and two up 74. So it is a similar situation to what F16's in some countries find themselves in. I would agree with others talk to race officials and race together if it suits.

It is good that this subject has been brought up at this time in OZ as i am hoping to have a VYC yardstick for the first time for F16 in the coming season.Personaly I think the difference if any is so negligible it is certainly my intention to only seek one yardstick for F16 one or two up in OZ. Which should avoid any problems as long as the VYC Handicapper agrees that is. Of course I am happy for feedback from Aussie sailors on this, on the Forum or by PM if you wish.

Regards Gary.

KW,
Weither you calculate time or distance doesn't matter.
It is all relative.
If you raced more, you would see many close finishes.
YOUR own thread "news flash; this must have been nail biting !" showed two f16s finishing within 15 seconds of each other after one (1) hour and fifty-five(55) minutes.
That is 15/6900 = 0.22%

I won a race at the Tommy Whiteside Regatta by covering the boat behind me.
He could have bumped into my rudders at the finish.
The third and fourth place boats finished witin thirty seconds of us.

At the 2003 Hobie Tiger & 20 Continentals, I was working on the Race Committee boat and I saw seven (7) boats finish within thirty seconds in light air race.

I have been in and seen many boats finish with a boatlength of each other and calculated many finishes with boats within a minute of each other.

Your dismissing a 1.0% advantage is disingenuous and shows a lack of racing knowledge.

Its essential for sailors to actually look at the real time that seperates them from the leaders. Sailwave makes this quite easy! All of the race results that CRAC publishes included the elapsed time the portsmouth corrected time and what is now called BCE. This last number is the important one to look at. It tells you HOW many minutes you needed on your boat to save around the course in order to win (obviously a Tornado and a Hobie 16 will differ. Bad starts, slow tacks, wrong decisions can be seen in the numbers.

Indeed boats finished overlapped and boats correct to within seconds. However, Wouter's point is well made... How many seconds are lost at the start? etc? etc?

Nothing is lost and much gained by scoring every one design class seperately to recongize their efforts at class building BUT ALSO scoring the fleet together so that everyone is racing somebody no matter what.

Having two different yardstick's/ratings for F16 cat and sloop when their performance in either configuration is so close to each other that the only REAL difference between them in either form, is which configuration has the "better" sailors on them at the time, is about as "useful" as having a separate rating for each and every sailor who races no matter what boat they sail. Personal individual "handicaps" ARE often used by clubs for "club" championships but to even think about doing it for an entire "class" is obviously ridiculous, - as ridiculous as having two ratings/yardsticks for differently configured, or different manufactured F16! What would be next- a separate rating for a Stealth, separate rating for Taipan, separate for a Blade, etc. If that was the case there would be absolutely no reason for having any F16 cats at all, they would all just fall back into the "restricted one design class" system that has created the original reasons for the emergence of the "formula" system. The whole concept of the Formula system is that ALL types of formula 16 catamarans sail against each other for “across the line first wins” and any attempt to alter that is an attempt to “bring down” the whole concept of formula racing.
We have not (and will not) see the idea of incorporating separate ratings for different manufactured classes of F18’s, even though there has been considerable argument between sailors as to which class of F18 they see as “the fastest”. The idea of separate ratings for different F18’s would be laughable to most if not all those involved in F18 racing, even though there has been differences in excess of a 1.5% to 2,5% difference between different manufacturers models of F18 bandied about from time to time, that has still never effected the firm resolution that all F18’s sail as F18’s ON THE SAME RATING, as should the F16’s

Darryl,
When we first started working on the rules it was certainly my understanding that our interntion was to come up with a set of rules that allowed one up and two up boats to race first in wins.

I still think the rules are right for this to happen.

The point you have made regarding the F18s is a very good one.
There should only be one yardstick, that is the whole point of a formula class.

Regards,
Phill

Hello all,

I just got back from vacation in the mountains, no internet, no cell, life was good. If this post rambles its because its almost 2 am and I just drove 10 hours.

First of all, for the Harken series the number of boats required to make a fleet was dropped from the normal 5 to 4 to help get participation in the series going.

In the case of the F16 class, Woot pretty much summed it up. According to portsmouth, the Sloop and Uni have different numbers and were scored using those numbers at Daytona. The F16 sailors, from what I was told, did not ask to be scored together.

The main purposes of the Harken series is to promote catamaran sailing and to promote one-design/formula classes. It is not a goal of the series to dictate which classes are allowed or how those classes should be run.

It is up to each class to promote themselves and to determine the rules of their class.

It is up to the F16 class to decide how they want to be scored, as seperate fleets or all together. Certainly there has to be some organization and discussion within the sailors on this issue. It sounds like this discussion has begun, so when you figure it out just let me know and we will score the class accordingly.

BTW, considering F16 vs F18, it is my opinion that the F16 class has different goals than the F18. I dont see the F18 class ever scoring uni boats with the sloops. Again, in my opinion, this is a selling boat for the F16 class, offering something that the F18 class does not, the opportunity to sail head to head uni vs sloop (with spins). That is, if you folks decide to go that way.

Brian Karr
Harken Series
1Design.Net

So, as I read your post Brian you are saying that it really is up to the actual "class" to decide which way they are going to go? That sounds completely logical to me and should offer the right information to all concerned who are interested in the stability and proliferation of formula racing

I don't know about Australia, but in the U.S. we do not yet have a United States Formula 16 Class Association.

Which comes first: Waiting until there are enough boats to form a class association, or forming a class association and promoting it and trying to get more boats into that class?

In either case, it is not conducive to building the F16 class if there are two separate handicap ratings for uni and sloop.

In the United States it still is not clear whether there is any strong commitment to the Formula 16 concept on the part of the Taipan 4.9's here.