F16 JIB system set ups

On some earlier posting, someone was asking about jib set ups. I've got pictures of 3 different setups that you can have a look at.

One is VectorWorks Blade set up, one other from Agent Orange Blade F16 and the other, Rhino Grey Taipan F16.

Agent Orange's has a turning block near the base of the spinnaker pole which directs the jib sheet outboard and then through the beam sleeve.

Rhino's follows along the same lines as the US Blade but in both our cases, we don't use the swivelling cleat as the Harkens non-pivoting cleat does a very good job at the same task without the need for a swivel and follows nicely along our minimalist ideas!!

But in the Agents case, most of the sheeting force is directed straight down the spinnaker pole. We first had a system on it which put a bit more side ways load on the jib tack area so that it deflected the tack of the jib to oneside. This way appears to be a lot better, but we can still tidy it up a lot more and are exploring another system altogether..

Comments are welcome as we'd like to see the NEATEST system on the planet with the LEAST amount of fittings. So far so good.

cheers
the Skunk

Blade system 2

Pro Sail Taipan F-16 System

Pro Sail Taipan System 2

Pro Sail Blade F16 - Agent Orange system

Pro Sail Blade - Agent Orange system 2

another pic of the VectorWorks Blade

I'm used to the system on the Hobie Tiger, and it works pretty well. Basically, it's the same as the Agent Orange system, but without the first pair of pulleys that the jib sheet goes through (at the foot of the pole). It goes straight from the cleat to the floating block and back to the other cleat. It does mean that the sheet angles aren't perfect, but provided that you set it up well (such that the floating block is far enough down the pole) it works very well. You still get about 3:1 on the jib, which is plenty.

Paul

Agent Orange's system minimizes the amount of jib sheet needed (larger dia, less weight/spaghetti), so that is a plus. The VWM Blade has fixed blocks on the pole, so twisting would not be a problem (may not be a problem, but theoretically could be)..so that is a plus. The Pro Asia set up is the same as the VWM Blade, but with more floating blocks, maybe a very small minus.

I'd have to vote a tie with VWM and Agent Orange, with the Pro Sail in a close third. The winner would depend on the sheeting action of the two systems (which I cannot judge from here).

Where do the bitter ends of the jib sheets go? Tied off at the shroud, main beam, looped through the main beam? I'd like to see a continuous jib sheet system. I am sure if I get back to the other thread, it'll be in there somewhere.

My two cents.

well the bitter ends haved a sweet ending because they go through a sleeve that is the trampoline around the mainbeam and are attached to each other by a bungee cord!

This has the added advantage that it really tidies up the trampoline and, for that, the Pro-Sail boats are a bit ahead i.e. no real strings across the deck..

If you want a better look, have a look at this,

www.prosail-asia.com/Boats/F16%20page.html

cheers

Tell me more about the Prosail Carbon 50-50 beams please...

What I can tell you about the Carbon 50:50..

Marine grade alu' was impossible to find around here to suit the beam purpose. So a variety of tubes from 18mm - 80mm was constructed to suit a variety of jobs on the cat.

Then various combinations of composite were made across the range. This is 100% Carbon, 50:50 Carbon/Glass and 100% Glass.

The 50:50 was used on the rear as the pricing of such a unit is way below the 100% Carbon price. In this case I believe it was cheaper than the marine alu' equivalent which would have had to be imported.

So far its stood up to the task well and I've heard that Pro-Sail have now redone the layup schedule so that any new tubes produced will be about 4 times stiffer as well a mush improved hoop strength.

The tubes are built around a male mandrell with the pre-peg' being rolled on under pressure by a machine which looks like a huge cigarette roller then baked in an oven.

If you'd like samples or more info'. drop pro-sail an email. Hope that helps.

cheers

Hi everyone, new to forum, based in Dubai. Currently boatless & very keen to trial a blade. For jib setups, i would like to try a single swivel cleat very close to the centreline on the front crossbeam. Tailing the jib sheet to the main sheet/main traveller join. The theory being the skipper can easily assist crew getting sheet on/off for spin raise and drops. Plus less fittings and no sheet build up on one side. Not sure this would interfere with mast raising??

All the best
David

Those beams sound good, so why isn't everyone using them? Are they much more expesive than plain aluminium (assuming you don't have to import the alum.) and how much lighter are they?

in the current application on the Blade Agent Orange, the Carbon front beam is striker-less so the weight savings were big by comparison. From what I know the Carbon blank on the Agent weighed 2.8kgs add about .5 - 1kg for the fittings.

I can guess the weight of an Alu front beam at being about 7-9kgs with the striker and fittings.

The next series of pro sail composites are a lot stiffer longtitudinally and torsionally. I'd say it might have a wider appeal then. But most factories will still prefer to run alu'.

I'll find out the cost of the beams for you..

cheers

Rearbeam on my F16 (80 mm x 2 mm x 2500 mm) = 3.5 kg
Mainbeam on my F16 (superwing mast section x 1.6 mm x 2500 mm) = 4.0 kg ex dolphinstriker setup ; 6.5-7.0 kg incl dolphinstriker setup

Wouter

On my Tiger, I rotated the cheek blocks that are mounted on the spin pole about 45 degrees when I mounted them, it clears up that sheeting angle thing. Gonna have to get a picture. Used a pair of Harken 416's. You have to play a lot to find the right angle before you drill & rivet. A lot of it has to do with your jibsheet length. Mine are actually a little too close, I did that rather than accommodate buying a new longer jibsheet.
There is also no use for that Turning block that's mounted to the spinpole for the jibcar traveler adjustment. If you rotate that eyestrap 90 degrees you can lose the block completely and just use the eyestrap: West RF499 eyestrap has a stainless center ring that feeds the line without binding.
Small & light and dirt simple.
What is with the Flat plates you see holding up the ends of the jib traveler tracks on Orange and the Taipan? That blunt track end and the flat glass or aluminum supports looks like it would take a chunk out of me sooner or later.
Ouch!
Blade Track end support looks much kinder to our skin.

Thanks for comments and feedback - we'll soon get the neatest system on the planet working.

The flat plates, are going to have a high density foam cover over them to take the 'bashing'. Agree with you at the moment that it looks intimidating. On the plus side of that way of doing it, the Agent Orange uses Carbon/Kevlar tongues that are bonded to the Carbon beam. It weighed next to nothing and any flexing from the pull of the jib is well taken care of by the materials.

Once I plop a suitable foam cover over, will photograph it again.

I'd still like the ultimate jib system to tidy up what we already have working. Its coming especially after getting the feedback.

THanks again

Personally I like the jib sheet cleats to be more outward so that the crew don't has to go in very far to get to them. I like them swiveling so the crew can sit far forward and on the leeward side and still work the jib cleat. And I do like the jibsheet to go back on the trampoline a bit. At least to the sidestays if not further so you can adjust the jib in a blow and not worry about putting the boat in a pitchpole by moving forward to grap the sheet.

I like a clean trampoline like any other crew but I like to stay upright in a blow even more.

For recreational sailing tidying things up to a very high level is not a problem, when racing then a boat can be too tidy. Must take care not to compromise on accessibility or to compromise the ability to switch roles (skipper working the jib etc). Both of these are very important (= fast) during racing and mostly so during racing in the rough stuff.

Wouter

IN the interest of aiding the discussion I thought I'd give a bit of a run down on what I have
tried before settling on the setup similar to what is currently being used on the VM Blade.

My first setup was very similar to the setup on Agent Orange. Fixed cleats driving 2:1 purchase on
the jib. This worked quite well until the wind strength got up. I found that around 18 to 20 knots I
just didn't have enough purchase and as you are further back on the boat in these conditions the fixed
cleats were more difficult to operate.

A reduction in the final sheet loading may solve this and so I increased the purchase to 4:1
still with fixed cleats.

This was initially achieved with 2 single blocks attached to the junction betwen the jib compression
strut and spinnaker pole where the double block is on the VM Blade.
The lines exiting the two single blocks towards the cleats spun the blocks so they both sat in the same plane and the line exiting the blocks to the single sheave rubbed
against each other preventing the sheet from running smoothly. Even with the reduced loading in the
jib sheet the fixed cleats did not work as well as I had hoped.

My next change was to change the two single blocks for a double and put rotating cleats instead of fixed.
In this configuration I found that I could operate the jib from any position on the boat provided I could get my hand to the jib sheet but I still had a friction problem because
now the jib sheets rubbed on the pole.
A spacer under the head of the double block solved this problem and now it works to my satisfaction.


Regards,
Phill

Hi!

1)
has anyone pictures of the modifications needed at the forestay and the attachment point of the jib when adding a selftacking jib system to a standard taipan 4.9?

2)
has anyone ever re-used/recutted the standard 4.9 jib for this reason and can tell his experience?

3)
do you think it would be possible to build a very simple [and probably less ideal] jib traveller in form the Laser is having a traveller, so basically just ropes and blocks?

The target is to free the trampolin, not to gain performance, but to invest as little as possible. we have a couple of otherwise useless jibs here where we don't mind to recut them to have a try. we have to focus on 'do it yourself' as the import to China for any original systems from Australia etc. would be very expensive and a sailing gear shop where you just pass by and do your late christmas shopping with Harken and Ronstan stuff seems not to exist yet here...

Any comments from selfbuilders are heartly welcome!

Thanks!

Dirk

2: I have re-cut a Tornado classic (overlapping) jib by removing some area from the leech and luff. It is approximately the same as the Taipan4.9, but a bit larger. It was not a good jib afterwards. Removing area from just the luff or leech would be even worse. Re-cutting an overlapping jib to make it selftacking is not a good idea, period.

If you are into homebuilding, building a jib is not a large or difficult project. For a first time homebuildt jib, I would reccomend hand cutting and a cross-cut layout. It can be assembled on a domestic sewing machine. You will do better that way than with any re-cut of your overlapping jib.
If you can measure what luff length, foot and leech length you want on your new jib, I can send you a design for evaluation based on the jibs we have buildt for our Tornado.

I second Phills comments.

I've been down almost the exact same road (with minor differences) and have come to the same conclusions.

Indeed ...

-1- you want 1:4 purchase on the jib
-2- you want the blocks on the pole to be well fitted so that blocks can't realign themselfs and have the lines rub
-3- you want to have swivel cleats.

I also found that you don't want the swivel cleats (jib sheet) to be too far inwards towards the mast.

Wouter

This part of the conversion is very easy. I will try to dig up some photo;s for you later in the week. But rest assured this is not a problem not even for you in China. My setup costed me 10 bucks and used an alu tube from the local hardware story, an eyestrap, 2 pop rivets and some high tension dyneema line





I will think some about this. I believe better option are available then that.

Wouter

Hi guys,
thanks for your kind feedback.

meanwhile I also contacted prosailasia and they also mentioned as an alternative a nice simple idea: if cleaning up the trampoline is the basic priority, why not just moving the standard jibblocks to a rail or even fixed positions directly on the mainbeam and just invest into a new jib cut for this purpose...

I wait for their quotation but Rolf, your proposal sounds also very interesting, as there is a local boatsbuilder around who must be able to make those jibs if we can tell him how to cut them. If we will follow this way I will let you know the measurements!

Thank you!

Dirk

Dirk.

Just pop riveting two eyestraps onto the mainbeam and shackle your blocks to them (with a spring) will definately work. That was the way all Formula boats were setup up before the selftackers came along.

I would personally try to make a jib yourself (or have it made locally) with the instructions given to you by Rolf. That is if you can get the dacron cloth there in China. After having fiddles with my own jib now I can see that it is not a big step to make. Even if the jib is not prefect first time round then you can easily alter your luff curve manually to get a better shape. It is also easy to test any new luff curve. Just take a stapler and staple a new luff round on your jib. You'll actually be stampling the tunnel through which the forestay runs (closed zipper). Once you are happy with the jib after making a few tries then you can have the new curve sewn into the sock permanently.

All in all it is a pretty low cost-low risk operation. And the construction of the jib itself is not really that difficult. You can probably steal some of the luff curve design of the old jib. OR at least get a feel for what you are looking for.

Wouter

thanks wouter,

phill will also be so kind to send some photos for building the compression piece, if you find your images would still be helpful!

thanks again!

(if we find a way to produce cheap jibs in china (which also looks like jibs) i will let you know! ;-)

Hong Kong have several sailmakers. You can buy cloth, zippers, basting tape, thread, needles etc. there. Or you can import what you need from any foreign sailmaker or Sailrite in the USA (www.sailrite.com).
If all these fail, let me know and we can work something out.

The cheapest solution is to break out your sewing machine and cut your panels yourself. Just the experience is worth the effort, and the result _will_ look and set like a jib, no worries. Sailmaking is not rocket science (no matter what North and others say), but an art and a craft everybody with the inclination to can master.
If you want to go into mass production, that is a completely different matter.

Dirk/Wouter-
If they've got the "old" jibs laying around to rot- What about modifying ala a Hobie 16?? That is sew in some jib pockets, round out the leech (ala the 16 jib) and add a new clew plate to allow sheeting to blocks on the front beam? Could even add the tracks on the beam ala the H 16- Wouldn't be self-tacking but would clear up the tramp. I believe the Spitfire or Stealth has a battened self-tacking jib??
Just a cheap thought--

Kirt

Like I said earlier on, I have tried that. It will leave you with draft in the wrong position and open the leech. You will not point well and the jib will not power up the sailplan as it should.
Try drawing some chords with 10% depth and draft at ca 40% forward on a sheet, then cut off the aft end and you will see the difference in shape. Such a small alteration really changes the sails characteristica.

hi guys...

I am still searching for photos showing existing compression struts which could be used as a system to enable the standard taipan 4.9 with spinnaker pole to use a lower attached F16 jib...

I received some very helpful photos from phill brander (thanks again!) but still look for alternatives...

thank you!

have been veruy busy. just derusted my landyacht frame and painted it black.

I will look for my pics tonight, I promise.

Wouter

here are some pics of compression strut setups and self tacker set ups

top of strut

jib self tacker

jib self tacker 2

I thought I had some pics with the whole thing rigged (selftacking jib and all) but I can't seem to find them (or I was just imagining things)

My strut is actually really simple and it was dirt cheap. The boys rigged it during the DCC in a very short time as well. The pics are of a few weeks after that so the boat or the setup doesn't look really tidy, but I've cleaned it up since.

The strut setup itself is just :

-1- one 35 cm 20mm by 2mm alu tube as bought at the local hardward store for 2 euro's (remember my bridles are higher !)

-2- on the bottom the tube has been flattened by a vice to allow the eyestrap to sit inside the tube. On the top a slot has been cut that slides over the bridle strop plate.

-3- on the spi pole an eyestrap is blind riveted.

-4- In the bottom part of the strut a hole is drilled through which either a retaining pin or the pin of a shackle is put. This pin sit under the eyestrap that is inside the strut when the setup is assembled as so keeps the strut to the spi pole.

-6- two dyneema 3 mm 500 kg lines run from just forward of the eyestrap/strut to the bridle wires fittings on my hulls. These keep the spi pole at the strut very accurately in place and thus prevent the jib from developping a crease. It also stabilizes the spi pole and you can now use a smaller wall thickness or diameter pole = saves weight.

-7- Currently I still use a single 3mm dyneema 500 kg line between the spi pole and bridle plate to hold the spi pole up when the jib is not fitted, But that was because I have been too lazy to tidy that up as of yet. Mind you when the jib is fitted, then the jib luff will pull the whole setup upwards and this retaining line is not necessary at all. For a while now I've been thinking of either having this line run inside of the strut or drill holes in the top of the strut and bridle plate. I'm not sure what'll do.


This total setup costed me, maybe 5 or 6 euro's in total. I'm till using it and it works fine. Only thing I would alter if I would make it new again was filling the top of the slot with some plastic rod and screw that in place that. This will cut down on the slot wearing out (deeper) over time. It has not been a real problem yet but I can see it happening and putting more tension on the stabilizing lines than I want. It will also make drilling a hole in the bridle plate and screw the strut to the bridle plate from the rear easier and better. I don't want to use a retaining pin there as the spi sail will rub and probably rip on that.

















On the subject of selftacking rails and setups, do a search on this website. I think I placed pics and stories two times before on this forum.

Good luck Dirk.

Wouter

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thank you wouter,

gives a clear idea how simple a strut can be made! I don't see how you fix the jib on where the alu tube and the spiboom meet, but the other pics gave an idea for that too. what i like on this simple system is that you can easily take the compression strut away if for any reason you would sail again without spinnaker and old jib...
and the reliability of the whole rig is not touched, so even if the compression strut fails, no problem with the rig!

if anyone still have photos of the compression strut with a jib attached, would still be nice to see!

thanks again and we will keep you updated on the progresses of the growing china F16 fleet...

soon a fifth taipan will join our fleet...

slow progress for a fast moving country (I think the number of members of our sailing club nearly doubled last season and we are now around 140 members where the majority still have to share the few boats owned by the club...)

dirk

This is the best pic I have of a fitted jib with compression strut. You'll just have to wait a couple of months for better ones. Sorry.




Wow when I look at that pic now I can see so many things that I have changed since then. And the boat is alot better for it !


Actually some things haven't chanced. I still fit the jib to my spi pole via a simple loop-with-bead-line system. I only fit is a little lower now. I've have increased the purchase from 1:2 to 1:4 on my jib sheeting. And some other stuff. But you should just try and rig something up with the parts that you have. It is all quite simple really and alot of different setups will work fine as long as you can prevent the line from rubbing against eachother or against the pole. You could also just drill a second hole in the strut (just above the hole for the retaining pin) and have a shackle that goes throught the jib eye secure itself to it. That would be most simple. A quick snap shackle will do great there. I think Phill has an eyestrap riveted to the strut itself and he secures his jib to that. There are so many easy solutions. Use what ever is easiest with regard to your parts inventory.


Wouter