Hooter or Snuffer on Hobie 17

Know anyone who has put Snuffer or Hooter on Hobie 17? I want to go hang with the big boys?<br><br>

Try Jim Glanden Div 11 commodore He has had a hooter type rig on his 17 for distance racing in moderatge wind. I believe its a Smyth sail.
<br>Have fun
<br>Mark<br><br>

I went with a reacher from Sabre Sails. Will letyou know how it works.



Doug Snell

H17

"Stress Free"

Anyone tried the FX1??



Thoughts?? - this now comes with snuffer option

Demo-ing tomorrow



any thoughts -14s7 so ?too heavy for F16 solo

huw,



I make 14s7 = to 90kg whch is my weight and I sail a T4.9 cat rigged. (at this stage without the added luxury of a kite)

The T 4.9 Cat Rigged (solo) National Titles was taken out a couple of years back by someone who wieghed 98kg. 15s 10lb



Assuming you still think your too heavy for a light weight boat like an F16 going to the heavier FX1 isn't going to help the situation.

Huw,

After re reading your post I realised your were asking a question , not making a statement. So I would like to add to my previous response.



Too heavy? I think not.



The F16 box rule allows a mast up to 9m high and the sail plan as well as sail shape can be invididually design for your body weight.



Couple this with the use of a kite I think you will find crew weight to have much less impact in F16 (solo) than other classes.



Personally, with the added flexability in the sail plan, I think the heavier guys (cat rigged) may actually be in a better position to have an edge.

Only time will tell.

Thanks for your comments - never seriously tried losing weight - life too short!



I used to have a Hurricane 5.9 but lack of regular crew forced sail. I would like a boat I could solo and be competitive - but also not be too far off the pace with kite and 70-80 Kg crew...(160-170kg total).. I also sail in Bristol Channel _ lumpy short swell at times - hence the thoughts of a slightly longer/heavier boat.



Intend to try lots before I buy



My only moan is whwn the winds' up and i really am competitive (top end of F4 and above) too many others just decide the club house looks warm and inviting.......



Comments appreciated



huw

>>Anyone tried the FX1??



I did, but I didn't want to react on the open forum as I'm pretty heavily involved in the F16 class. But I will react now.



>>Thoughts?? - this now comes with snuffer option

Demo-ing tomorrow



Pro's :



-1- Looks cool; flyer hullshape.

-2- has the spinnaker option with the snuffer

-3- some H17 sailors in NL are switching to the FX-one, guess that tyhis boat will be the solo boat for Hobie people.

-4- Is everything what you expect of Hobie. Ruddersystem etc.

-5- has wings giving about 10 % more righting moment

-6- Mainsail and mast hook system are nive and work well.

-7- downhaul and mast rotator can be operated from the trapeze

-8- tack and gibes well.



Cons ;



-1- Is offered with jib but haven't seen that one yet and but needs to be modified for that.

-2- Is a A-cat look alike but very similar in weight when compared to I-17 and also not much lighter than H17. It is very much heavier than both the A-cats and F16's

-3- Is very difficult to right solo without righting aids, this was found to be a problem by all who I know to have sailed the FX-one. It is by no means comparable to A-cat, P15, P16 and F16 when looking at rightability. I'm really not overstating this.

-4- I personally disliked the traveller setup. I like to put my foot against the cleat to pin myself to the boat and I feel a centred cleat puts considerable less sideways load on the traveller track. I also like the cleating and uncleating aspect better of a centred cleat.

-5- It must be sailed differently because of the flyer hulls, it also is louder and splashes alot more than say H17.

-6- I found the speed to be comparable to a H17

-7- In the version I've sailed the trapeze wires were in the way of moving about the hull.

-8- Downhaul was heavy. I have also sailed in heavy weather and I used to preset the downhaul and leave it alone for I couldn't reset it from the trapeze (to heavy). Maybe the increase the purchase now. A-cats and F16's use at least 1:12 if I remember that correctly.

-9- The trampoline system is nice and simple but FX-one sailors advice to use strong bungees or elastic line. High strength inelastic line as used by Hobie is difficult to tension and within a few moments the trampoline sags as inelastic line is inelastic but is does stretch when the strand settle over time.

-10- I found it to be draggy with the sterns, but that may be the way a (planning?) flyer hull should be sailed.

-11- I personally found it expensive for the workmanship presented in the boat. For me a Taipan is about as expensive but has more goodies like daggerboards that can be raised from the trapeze. And also better performance





>>any thoughts -14s7 so ?



What is -14s7 ?





>>too heavy for F16 solo



Allow me :



This is really weird as F16's



- have a little more sailarea (main and gennaker)

- have equally high masts

- are just as wide

- are optimized for a doublehander weight of about 145 kgs (320 lbs) and are sailed solo without the jib, but the main is still there.

- is in overall (boat + crew) weight about 45 kg's lighter than the FX-one. Resulting in a texel rating that is 99 instead of the 107 of the FX-one. F16 class does have a official Texel handicap now.

- Fx-one is only 0,23 mtr = 2/3 ft longer than the F16's. F16.s are actually 16,4 ft in length.



On the points I can see some people to be to heavy for the F16's but it is very strange to see the FX-one to handle heavier crews better than the F16's. It is rather the other way around.



I would advice you test sail both classes and compare them. John Pierce of the Stealth F16 has a demo boat you can test sail in the UK. I'm not sure how many FX-one are in the UK but there will be several Stealth F16's in the UK this spring.



I also recall a guy who testsailed teh I-17R and thought its was a nice boat, UNTILL he just sailed a Taipan too and compared the I-17R to that.



Anyways I wish you the best of winds and fun independent of which design you choose. Hope to race you one day.



With kind regards,



Wouter

just the feedback I needed - thanks for you full and useful comments



14s7 = 90Kg



I'll let you know how I get on:



My other options:



Inter 17 (SPI) -- inter 17R not available in UK (ie can't get larger carbon rig )

Stealth (not sure about unusual rudders - Stealth marine say they may help in a short chop)

Spitfire



Good ol' Dart 18





Hope to trial Inter17 and Stealth over easter at weston (Southampton).



Who imports Ti-pan into UK?



Could I still take my 12 year old out in F4 on a F16 (stealth or Spitfire) for a pleasure sail?





Huw

Your welcome,



>>>14s7 = 90Kg



Okay, the conversion factor between lbs and kg's that I use gives 147 lbs = 66 kg's , 90 kg's would be 199 lbs.





>>I'll let you know how I get on:



Please do :



>>Stealth (not sure about unusual rudders - Stealth marine say they may help in a short chop)



I remember that they give you a choice between the new style T-foil rudders and normal A-cat rudders. The last kind would be the normal kick-up kind that we all know from other cats. Actually their Stealth R (predecessor to the F16) had these "normal" rudders.



>>Spitfire (would allow you to race in the F16 class)

>>Good ol' Dart 18 (yep, very available on secondhand scene)



Who imports Ti-pan into UK?



>> Taipan does not have an agent in the UK as far as I know. The nearest would be Pieter Saarberg here in the Netherlands. It would require a trip to pick it up, no customs hassle though for UK is still inside the common market despite staying out of the Euro. Gebhard Peitz of Germans will be happy to help you out and if require one of us might bring it with us to a (UK) race. There is always something that can be arranged. Mail me privately at WouterHijink@hotmail.com and I'll give you the e-mails of Pieter Saarberg and Gebhard Peitz if you are interested in this option. I don't want to put their mail addresses on this public forum.





>>Could I still take my 12 year old out in F4 on a F16 (stealth or Spitfire) for a pleasure sail?



All dependents on teh skipper and his control over the boat. I wouldn't even advice a Prindle 16 if I knew that the skipper wasn't able to control the boat all by himself and to read the skies for sudden changes well.



Having said this, the F16's will sail well with the jib and gennakers, leaving just the mainsail and rudders as controls. This is the solo configuration of the class and several of our group sail like that and have sailed like that in strong winds. Now if YOU can control a boat like that solo than you sure can control it with your 12 year ols onboard. Now if the 12 year old is big for his age or grows rapidly into a man that start adding the jib and gennaker and slow build up the boat to full double handed potential. Several of our group like Kirt have done that and bought the Taipans just for that option. Righting is no problem, especially with the STealths carbon mast. Taipan aluminium masts are only slightly heavier and still considerably lighter than the masts of the main builders.



All F16's at this time have alot of sailcontrols allowing you to depower alot and with ease. A dart 18 for example is less depowerable due to the lack of a boom. The control of the mainsail shape (flat vs full) is difficult with boomless mains. Also the squaretop sails help alot in depowering with respect to the old style pinheads.



And there are more considerations like that. But maybe Phill, Kirt and other are better in answering this particular questions as I have no kids of my own and I have taken kids along on all design in all winds when I was still a cat instructor. I have done quite a bit solo sailing.



Wouter

Re sailing ability : I am a cat instructor (so probably a B*** awful sailor) - but generally know when NOt to go out



What rating would a spitfire sail to SCHS/texel monosail??



Just booked my spitfire/stealth sail for the week after!



Huw

>>> Re sailing ability : I am a cat instructor (so probably a B*** awful sailor) - but generally know when NOt to go out



Ohhh Sorry ! I missed that one.



I guess it is then safe to postulate that you'll have things in hand at F4 then and able to look at those times. With those funky special edition instructor shades.



Anyways,



To answer your last questions.



>>What rating would a spitfire sail to SCHS/texel monosail??



Next are ALL isaf ratings and all includind the spi :



Spitfire 1-up ISAF measurements = 1,03 (estimate using ISAF calculator)

Spitfire 1-up Texel measurements = 1,02 (estimate using ISAF calculator)



To compare



F16 2-up = 100 / 101 = F18

F16 1-up = 96 / 97 = A-cat class.



The double numbers of the F16 are caused by the mast material which in the F16 class maybe either carbon or aluminium. As you know ISAF hits carbon mast with one point deduction in the rating.



Under Texel the ratings are equal to the F18 class and A-cat class no matter what mast is used.



Now this is nice excersize in numbers, but it must be underlined that the Spitfire does not have a solo mode for the Spitfire and therefor there is no handicap number under both ISAF and Texel for this setup. You would need to apply for one when you want to race singlehanded.



F16 does regulated both 2-up and solo sailing as a class and has been succesfulin getting a Texel rating number for both modes. Go to www.texelrating.knvw.nl page to see them listed.



When the Stealth F16 is measured under ISAF than the SCHS system will have a rating for both 2-up and 1-up too. I'm sure that these rating will then be made a class rating independent of the particular design.



Your other options were



ISAF



Inter 17 1-up = 1,07

Inter 17 2-up = about 1,16

Dart 18 1-up = about 117 (inc spi)

dart 18 2-up = 116 (inc spi)





Texel



Inter 17 1-up = 111

Inter 17 2-up = do you really want to know ? = 121= slower then a Prindle 16 without spi.

Dart 18 1-up = 117 (inc spi)

dart 18 2-up = 116 (inc spi)



So I hope this answers all the question you might have about the boats and the ISAF and Texel rating systems.





>>Just booked my spitfire/stealth sail for the week after!



Hee ! have fun ! I'm a bit jealous now. If you want to see some pictures of both as well as the Taipan and Bimare F16:



Go to.



www.geocities.com/F16HPclass/



Also check out the Taipan rigging document under "articles" ; lots of pics.



Ohh, The taipan. How could I forget that one !!



A very nice boats with some nice things of its own. Also certified to race in F16. It's ratings are either the same as the F16 or are rounded off upward to one rating point slower. But really absolute differences are about 0,62 points which is only seconds slower in a hour.



I'm building Taipan hulls right now and will have a Taipan mast on my F16 one-off design. I think I will call it a Taiphoon for it still resembles a Taipan 4.9 lot.



Could you tell us what you though of the boats after you sailed them ?



Wouter

www.texelrating.knwv.nl



Sorry,



Wouter

I suppose i really ought to get a f16 (spitfire currently favourite) so I can legitimately stay in this extremely helpful forum.

Decided only true way is to sail everything and make my mind up.



very much appreciate the wisdom you have shared - keep it flowing!



huw

Huw,



I admit that I would be very pleased with another F16 in the UK as will be several others who are just stepped in but I don't want to put you under pressure of any kind. As far as I'm concerned you're welcome on this forum what ever you sail. I'm not involved with any builders and most of the others aren;t too. We all do this for fun and to present an (better) alternative.



At minimum you would be aware of the F16 class and likely to spread the word even when you opt to go for say a Dart 18. And that is our win already as we can use some more public attention.



>> Decided only true way is to sail everything and make my mind up.



That is indeed the "only true way".



>>very much appreciate the wisdom you have shared - keep it flowing!



I'm sure we will and feel free to drop in on this forum when you want too.



Wouter

Wouter,

I assumed 14s7= 14 stone and 7 pounds.

With 14 pounds to a stone = 14*14+7= 203lbs (pounds)

My calc 203/2.24= 90.625kgs



Huw,

Please let us know how the boats compare.

It's rare that you find anyone that hasn't a bias that colours their perception these days and

It's been a long time since I've had a chance to read a proper boat report.



They usually read like glossy promotion brochure.



Pleasae keep us informed.

The FX1 sail went well - flying hull singlehanded in a F2 uphill and downhill.



Fittings seem quality and robust - took a different style of sailing to get going - lots of tweeking out/down haul/mast rotation on each leg, and i was lying in the front of the tramp forward of the daggerboads to keep the stern out.



Particularly liked the way the fitting with hook on the sail at top of mast - and the very smooth running mainsheet slider (rear beam)



Seemed responsive without being twitchy. Plenty of buoyancy - in the few gusts we had going downhill I kept driving rather than easying the sheets (trying to trip it up) and the hulls dived but then popped up easily



Sailed in Poole harbour - so the Daggerboards only ever got halfway down - and were verymuch in the way - as were the pair of trapeeze wires _ I would have tried to take the forward one up to the front beam and the rear one in the front hole in the tramp.



I did capsize (intentionally) but my 14s with righting line needed a little help from the RIB safety boat. If I buy this I will need the frame when I solo in F2 ( particularly as I insist on spending my time on the leeward hull (single man's wild thing) at every opportunity.



A question - Those of you F16 fans - as the following comparisons show the FX1 and (Spitfire) are quite similar: - taking from manufact. brochure



length 5.25m (5m)

beam 2.55m (2.52)

Mast 8.5 (8.5)

Sailing Weight 135kg (139)



Main 16 sqm (15.5)

Spinaker 19m2 (18m2)



SCHS 1.09 (1.04)



Why am I going to find the spitfire any easier to right singlehanded in F2 ??



Huw

Fogive me for answering so quickly I had to do alot of tedious work and surfed around a little while waiting for the jobs to finish.





Anyways, it sounds like you did sail the FX-one. I recognize your findings.





>>Fittings seem quality and robust - took a different style of sailing to get going



I struggled a bit with that also. I was always taught to sail as quiet as possible.



>>- lots of tweeking out/down haul/mast rotation on each leg,



I forgot to write that last time. The FX-one does like a bit of downhaul even in light weather. Did they increase the downhaul purchase ? The type I sailed had 1:6 I believe, maybe 1:8





>>and i was lying in the front of the tramp forward of the daggerboads to keep the stern out.



Yeah ! Nice way to go from tack to tack right ? Getting that extended tiller around was a art in itself. The H16 there had lightweight Non extendable glassfiber tillers and those worked alot better despite the fact that they weren't extendable.



By way you can see my n the FX-one at http://www.geocities.com/kustzeilen/Hobie_fx_one.html



During the races the safety boat had a professional photographer on board. Luckily me ehh ?





>>Particularly liked the way the fitting with hook on the sail at top of mast





Yes, I liked that very much too. And the rudder mechanisme is nice too.





>>Plenty of buoyancy - in the few gusts we had going downhill I kept driving rather than easying the sheets (trying to trip it up) and the hulls dived but then popped up easily





Yes it is like that in those winds. If I may ? : in strong winds it will display an little bit unexpected characteristic. You feel secure for a very long time but at a certain point the bow will disappear and you will just go down. This is very strange in the beginning. I know it made me anxious, At the Hobie nationals 2001, were I sat in the race committee, I talked to a couple of FX-one sailors and they expressed it it like this "mostly it is okay, but when it goes ? it is over, nothing you can do".





>>Sailed in Poole harbour - so the Daggerboards only ever got halfway down - and were verymuch in the way - as were the pair of trapeeze wires





Yeah !! HA, Ha, they are just that, aren't they ?



>> I would have tried to take the forward one up to the front beam and the rear one in the front hole in the tramp.



I broke the bungeer cord in the strong afternoon winds and did just that. I think that I ran the rear trapeze bungee through the little loop fixing the line of the mast rotator to the sidestay. Now the trapeze and sidestay would be in the same place and leave my only one obstruction to worry about.



I also do remember that in the afternoon races my tiller fell between the stays and the trapwires right ing the middle of a gibe. Boy, did I have to put some coins into the foul language jar of the bar when I got back on the beach. If they is one thing that gets my going than it is trying to untangle a tiller with F6 coming straight from behind with gusts of more (really ! not exceggerating) with rudders flopping from one-side to another. It's felt like I miracoulously managed to avoid a couple of hard pitchpoles or violant capsizes.



I can laugh about it now, but back then .....







>> I did capsize (intentionally) but my 14s with righting line needed a little help from the RIB safety boat. If I buy this I will need the frame when I solo in F2 ( particularly as I insist on spending my time on the leeward hull (single man's wild thing) at every opportunity.





Seriously, (no F16 trickor advert for F16), but the righting doesn't improve with stronger winds or waves. Actually the flyer hull shape is such that the boats sails very well on it's trampoline effectvely trying to turtle the boat after a capsize. The speed with which it moves through the water when on its side is intimidating and makes executing the power righting manouvre very difficult if not useless. I'm sorry to say this and please believe me that I'm honest about this. However I feel that Hobie got it very wrong when it comes down to righting the FX-one, especially considering it is a solo craft.



Several of us tried there in Greece in all conditions (morning have light winds, afternoons have strong winds) but none of us could right it. The instructors there admitted that they couldn't either. I strongly advice righting aids to any sailor buying a FX-one.







>>>A question - Those of you F16 fans - as the following comparisons show the FX1 and (Spitfire) are quite similar: - taking from manufact. brochure



length 5.25m (5m)

beam 2.55m (2.52)

Mast 8.5 (8.5)

Sailing Weight 135kg (139)



Main 16 sqm (15.5)

Spinaker 19m2 (18m2)



SCHS 1.09 (1.04)



Why am I going to find the spitfire any easier to right singlehanded in F2 ??





I don't know. I can't figured out why the FX-one is difficult to right. Best I can come up with is that the mast is relatively heavy. But it doesn't need to be that heavy. Look at the old aluminium A-cat masts and the Taipan 4.9 masts. Both boats can easily be righted by a solo crew. Your guess is as good as mine.



I don't know what the Spitfire righting characteristic is. I'm hoping you'll be able to tell me that in a weeks time. Or two weeks time as I'm in the USA sailing with the US F16 guys next weekend.



Many thanks for your report !



Looking forwards on the ones about the Spitfire and Stealth.



Wouter

Thanks for the info - you don't looked very tanned in the sunny location .... too much time in the bar??



Your http://www.geocities.com/F16HPclass/F16HP_to_Acat_I17_FXone_comparison.html was very useful



I think if I buy the FX1 I will need to include the righting frame, also disappointed that the 7555 UKP dpesn't include the genniker/ snuffer which adds 1000+ to the price



If I decide on a singlehander 2 sail will definitely test the inter17



Seeing as my mind is now drifting towards Spitfire/stealth, am I going to be able to depower it enough to single sail in F4-5 on my own (using only easily accessible adjustments - max rake, max downhaul and other "sail controls) - I should say I am very used to sailing overpowered - but wouldn't want to leave the boat on the shore in these conditions where the FX1/inter17 I would cope okay??



And presumably righting singlehanded in these conditions would be okay. The only time I tried righting the 5.9 on my own in a F5 (crew decided to leave halfway through a reach - something I said?) I could get it up - but all my weight in the right place on the dolphin stricker (TMT and downhaul all released) was not enough to stop it going over ontop of me - lifting me clear of the water and recapsizing the other way!



safety boat was then on hand so no sad ending I'm pleased to say



Huw

Huw

Raced with new reaacher. wild Thing downwind is NICE!!



Doug snell

H17 #007

"Stress Free"