ECPR 2006

It's the second round of the UK F16 TT series for this year at the East Coast Piers Race this weekend. It's a race that I've been looking forward to sailing in since I missed it last year.

Now the bad news - for me at least - I can't sail this year either!! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Sorry guys, I hope you all have a really good time - the forecast looks good - but I've just (last night)pulled my back while working on the house.

It's an old injury that I've pulled several times and so I know how it's going to go. I reckon it'll be a couple of weeks before I risk going sailing again (but gently!).

I'm currently flat on my back on the floor of the lounge watching daytime TV (what a load of c**p!) with my trusty laptop to hand, and the weather is beautiful outside. I'm actually feeling very cross with myself rather than miserable, but I reckon that by Friday at any rate I'll at least be able to move around if I'm careful.

Have fun everyone!

John

That is real bad news !

Hope you feel better soon <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Sorry to hear that John, hope you get well soon!


If you are bored, how about looking at http://www.tacticat.com/ and giving us a comparative review to Virtual Skipper <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
If you still are bored, there is always Sailcut to play around with.


PS: I find BBC Prime enjoyable in the weekends. Youngest one loves the childrens show, while the wife usually gets up and drink her morning coffe to "Flog it" or one of the other gardening/house-shopping shows. (Leaves me time to do something useful). Youngest one even likes to watch BBC learning in the mornings, at the age of 1 year <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Bummer! Get well soon.

Thanks guys!

One good thing to come out of it though - I don't have to paint the outside of the house in the immediate future AND I get to lie on my back watching the World Cup and saying things like "Could you get me another beer please, dear?" <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

John, I thought I had "pulled" something in my back two years ago. I had back pain off and on for aobut 15 years, since the twins were born and I started lifting them out of the car all the time. So I did the same thing, lay on the floor, feet up on the couch, etc. but this time, after 3 days, I still could barely walk. So I went to the Doctor. If it feels like an ice pick stuck in your spine down low, it's not a pulled muscle, it's a disc pressing on a nerve. Talk to a back specialist (Neurosurgeon), not a chiropractor.

Turns out I had ruptured a disc in my back, L5-S1, and the MRI showed the two others above it bulging. Do you have the pain down the back of your leg yet? (called Sciatica) When that happens, you pretty much know you have ruptured the disc and no amount of "rest" will fix it. I tried the 3 epidural shots, every two weeks, but they didn't work. If you have not yet ruptured the disc the shots might work for you. I ended up having the Lamenectomy (disc operation) which put me on the couch for about 3 weeks and off sailing for 6 months, but I'm much better now and as long as I don't lift heavy objects (Inter 20 onto trailer by myself) I should be ok.

But my doctor said, "Nothing I can do will make you 19 years old again. You are getting older and will have to stop trying to do all the things you did at 19, or you might rupture those two bulging discs and need another operation." I was running and lifting weights, etc. He said to stop running, cut back on the weights, but swim or ride a bike instead, which I do. He said, "Never do any bending, twisting, lifting all at the same time and never bend 90 degrees at the waist to pick up anything, even a penny on the floor! Bend your knees, keep your head up and your butt down." You know the next thing will be knee problems!

Ever notice how many old guys are racing A cats?? I'll bet that has something to do with it, that and the cost! Not too many 19 yr. olds can afford a $20,000 boat! But as a father of 4, I can't either!

Also I noticed Andre Agasi is going to retire this year, he has bad back problems. He's only 37. I was playing tennis with my kid the day I ruptured my disc, I was not lifting heavy objects, I was 45 then. Getting old sucks, but what else can you do? Thank God for lighter boats! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Take 4 200mg Advil every 4 hours and lubricate with Smitticks at bed time. That is the only way I could get to sleep. Good luck with it.

I am free this weekend if anyone needs crew/skipper. I have the sailing gear I need to keep warm.

Been doing too much yacht racing so have the urge to jump back on a catamaran where the loads are low but the speed is high.

JC

I have lost count on the number of times I have been unable to stand let alone walk.
Over the past 20 years I have spent litterally months flat on my back.
This all stopped a few years back when I went to a physiotherapist who was keen on teaching people how to treat their own back.

I can now avoid back problems but I need to exercise and stretch for 5 mins each morning and night.

If I get lazy and stop the exercises and have problems I now know how to fix it before it gets so bad I'm imobilised.

Works for me.

Regards,
Phill

Thanks for the advice Tim, but I'm pretty sure it's a recurrence of a torn muscle problem from when I was in my 20's. It feels exactly the same and it's all right side lower/middle back. I'm just taking co-codamol in the morning and early pm. Usually by the evening it's eased enough that I can sit up for the evening and get a reasonable nights sleep later.

This morning is a lot better than yesterday so I don't think it's a spinal problem. You know, with the number of dinghy people i know that have back problems, it'd be a really good topic for the general forum. What are the exercises that you do Phill?

Not only worth talking about how to ease problems but also how to avoid them for those who don't (yet) have back problems.....

I'm thinking about things like good trapeze/hiking technique, keeping your back straight when you sheet in etc. I'm sure that on this forum there must be the expertise to advise us all?

I'm sorry to hear this too. I wish you full recovery soon.

Wouter

John,
I have developed a series of exercises that even have to be done in a specific order. Mainly to make sure the stretching
helps and does not hinder the process. As the stretching is essential to long term relief.
These work for me and may or may not be good for others. I think that anyone who has or does not want to have back problems should read a book called "Treat Your Own Back" by Robin A McKenzie.
It is worth a lot more than the $10 it will cost from Amazon.com.

BTW:- When it comes to trapesing- get the right harness,one that supports the back properly, it makes all the difference. Also I think it would be better for our backs if we used centre sheeting. I don't but probably will go that way soon.


Regards,
Phill

For those that are coming I'll see you there <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

It just goes to prove that working on/around your home is bad for your sailing! (why can't wives understand that?)

As long as the wind is good enough for me to spend most of the day on the wire, my back is ok now. But if I have to spend the whole day sitting on the tramp, bent 90 degrees at the waist and slouching, it will hurt pretty badly after a few hours and be very stiff that night. I can trap all day with little pain afterwards, if I keep my back straight. Of course it is a good excuse when the wife wants me to take out the trash! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

In that case, I do not wish you a speedy recovery. At least until England wins or loses the cup. After that it's time to bury your face in a beer in victory or sorrow and get back to sailing.

Don't know if this will help or not, but a good core exercise that shouldn't put much strain on your back is called "dead bug". You can google it. There are several ways to do it, so you need to figure out the best for you.

A great day out for the Stealth's yesterday - Aaron won the Colne Point Race, with (from memory) Nigel in 4th, sandwiching two Shadows in 2nd and 3rd.

They got back so fast that they were packed up and gone by the time that Ann and I got back from fighting the tide at Clacton on the full ECPR. Probably avoided battling the "tide" on the M25 too - 5 hours back to Oxford <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> It's only 110 miles!

Paul

That's really good news Paul, wish I'd been there <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />.

I tried the Marconi site for full results, but none as yet. Are they sending the final results to competitors? Can someone publish them here?

What other F16s turned up? How did we do against the Spitfires?

I assume the results will be on the website in due course - I only know the results from the prize giving.

As far as F16s go, it was Aaron, Dave and Nigel on the Stealths plus Ann and myself on the Blade.

As far as I can remember, no Spitfires in the top 6 for Colne Point - but I think there was at least one doing that course. Ann and I put in a pretty poor show on the Blade, I'm afraid. We were battling with a couple of Spitfires all the way to the end, finishing just a few seconds after one of them (which means we were well behind on handicap). We really struggled in the lighter stuff, letting two Spitfires, an I17 and the Farrier trimaran past in the tide fight along Clacton beach. Still, we had some good moments and we've got plenty to work on for next time <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Paul

The final positions for ECPR 2006 and the Colne Point Race are now up at

East Coast Piers Race 2006

and

Colne Point Race 2006

They've also put up the results of the Saturday Points Racing.

Well done to everyone, special congrats to Aaron, of course. I really wish I'd been there, though I'd have thought that more would've chosen to do the ECPR course (F16s that is). I see that Scooby Simon managed the long course OK this year on his own, and there was a lone 'A' in there at 17th, so shouldn't the F16s have been able to do it too?

John, It is a long long long way 1-up.

Full respect to Scooby and Matt Young (A-cat) on doing the ECPR course single handed but the majority of solo sailors opted for Colne Pt. Think the A-cat my have even turned for home 1st.

I reckon the Stealths must have been issued a favourable handicap though as there didn't seem to be enough time between myself and two well sailed Shadows.

See you there next year.

Aaron,

Were you sailing one up or 2 up as the results have you on a Handicap of 103 which (I think) is the 2 up handicap for the Stealth R.

Just wondering.

Cheers

And yes, it was a flippin long way, and being that bit slower I was caught (along with a fair few spitfires / F18's and F16's the wrong side of Clacton) I'm guessing Matt was around just as the tide turned and then (in about 5 kts of wind) it took ages me to plug the strong tide to then turn around. GPS plot shows a total sailing distance of about 41 miles in non trapping conditions (for an Inter 17).

Back there next year on the weekend of the 7th / 8th July and it's the 20th year so it's going to be a big one.

Simon,
We were sailing 2-up on the saturday off 102 (i think). Did a change of configuration form on the Sunday for 1-up and the lady at the race office said there were already two other Stealths in that config and she would make me the same as them.
I honestly still don't know what that number was.

I sincerely hope so. I'm actually back up walking around OK again now. Just the odd twinge so I have to be a bit careful. Total bummer as Pete Pollard would say!

Non trapezeing, any distance race is a long, long way! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

So, respect to everyone for getting round whether it was the long or the short course!

OK; well then the results are wrong as they have you sailing off 103 for saturday which should be 102 and then sailing on 103 for Sunday as well as you should be on 0.98.

I have an excel copy of the results that the SCHRS group are using. A summary of the results are available on the Marconi website here

I think people must enter as exactly what they are as they were asking me questions all weekend as to what things where (afterall they don't know that a stealth is an F16, maybe they thought you were a stealth R on 103 ?)

So in your case a single handed F16.

This does raise the question of how we should race in open events. If we have an F16 event, we race 1-up vs 2-up on the water. In an open event, we have handicaps of 0.98 vs 1.02 which is a fair spread. Presumably nobody would object if the 2-up F16s accepted the vicious 0.98 handicap, but that rather ruins our chances against other classes (3% faster than an F18?)

I am hoping that one of the things to come out of Simon's work on the SCHRS will be a slower rating for the single-handers. I think our experience on the F16s is a good data point here: our boats are comparable on the water 1-up vs 2-up over a reasonable range of wind conditions. Unless SCHRS adopts separate low-wind / high-wind ratings, a formula that comes up with a very similar figure for the two F16 configurations would seem both reasonable and defensible.

As an aside, I think we should make a point of including "F16" in the boat name when signing on. Aside from making the RC's job easier, it's a small but important piece of class promotion to get the class name in the results.

Paul

Which will really confuse people if you're claiming 1.03 for a Stealth R!

But then Geaorge, IF you're sailing an 'R' you're entitled to a different handicap. The R is just a different version from the same builder. Just like any other builder having several models. There's nothing confusing about that.

I understand that John, but it gets confusing for people who don't understand SCHRS and who expect Stealths to be one design! Particularly if someone enters as an F16 but wants a bigger handicap than the handicap that the SCHRS list would imply is correct. I've had loads of hassle at my club getting handicaps for our Stealths sorted, particularly as one sails in a very strange configuration (F16 main and the original, tiny jib) having previously sailed as an R with the original main and an R jib. It doesn't help that our racing is run under PY so we have to come up with a conversion factor too.

Sorry, I should have prefixed my original suggestion with, "assuming you're racing off one of the F16 handicaps". If you're going to claim 1.03 then you should not state that you're F16 as that will indeed cause confusion.

Owners of fully-optimised F16s are supposed to race off the F16 rating - the bigger main means they're not entitled to the Stealth R's 1.03.

The grief you're having with the Stealth's rating is one of the things that makes formula racing attractive: builders and buyers both have a desire to gradually improve their boats. A formula system allows this to happen whilst retaining on-the-water racing off a single handicap (OK, two for as long as SCHRS scores 1-up and 2-up differently).

If you're racing at an open that includes a mix of configurations, you might consider racing Stealths and Stealth Rs off the F16 handicaps. To an outsider, seeing 6 F16s on the score sheet looks like a more interesting class than 3 F16s, two Stealth Rs and a "Stealth R minus large jib plus F16 main". After all, this is how we race at events like Datchet and Mumbles.

When I raced my Stealth R, I was always much more interested to see how I did againts F16s *on the water* than worrying about that last percent of handicap against completely different boats.

Paul

Everyone, I'm feeling really bad here. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
Sent a mail to Marconi SC last night to change me to 0.98 and recalculate. I left Marconi as soon as I got in on Sunday so didn't see the results at the club and still can't see the rating on the web site.
Hopefully the results will be updated soon and I can rest easy again. No prizes collected by the way. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Aaron,

that shows great sportsmanship and an example to all. How many other sports would this happen in ?

Well done.

As for the difference you sailing on at 0.98, I think you will end up second as you were a fair way ahead of Olly.

As for ratings changing, yes some will. I cannot (and will not) discuss what is happening in detail until we are in the position to publish the paper that is being worked on, this will need to be approved by the ISAF and so we can only suggest changes to the rule.

But things continue to be investigated and modelled as we speak. I spent a good 90 minutes on "SCHRS" business at the weekend at Marconi and we have made significant progress on ironing out some glitches. I have also had commitment from various other sources to provide data to assist us.

Will anyone be doing the 4inches race ?

Hey Simon,

This is us the F16 class, we believe in being fair to others !

That is why we have been trying to make the F16 2-up ISAF rating faster for the last year ! =)

Because we allowed ourselfs a slightly more mainsail area in spring 2005 when we simplified the class rules.

Please don't forget about that. Actually I have yet to receive any confirmation that ISAF or SCHRS has received our repeated requests.



Well congratulations Aaron, for 0.98 is one harsh rating for the F16 singlehanded.


Wouter

Wouter,

What is your measured sailarea now (under current SCHRS rules)?

Er, that'll be the 2007 Four Inches? The 2006 race was on June 24th.....

My measured mainsail area is still 14.85 sq. mtr. but I have an older F16 mainsail (pre spring 2005).

Since april 2005, 15.0 sq. mtr. mainsails are allowed. with a max luff (under tension) of 8.10 mtr

Also since april 2005 the jibs may be 3.70 sq.mtr. with max 6.00 mtr. luff and leech. However none of us is going over 5.5 mtr with our jibs.

When you punch those in in the old SCHRS handicap calculator we end up at the F18 ratings again.

Wouter

OK, can the chair of the F16 assoc. (or nominated person) send me a list of all F16 class measurements that are currently in the SCHRS rule (so as above plus the others) and also Max allowed beam and I will add them into the mix for our revisions for SCHRS. Please do not just send me a copy of your class rules, I do not have time to read them and extrapolate the appropriate data. However, a copy of the class rules as well would not go amiss. Please send to me at SimonL(at sign)schrs.org.

I cannot be certain that you WILL end up on the same handicap as an F18; but with the numbers you give us it will be useful in testing any changes we make to the rule with your stated belief that the F16 and F18 should be on the same rating.

Doh......

Anyone know an email address so I could get a copy of the results (with handicaps used etc) ?

Simon,
I'll put together what you need and PM you it.

Try Richie Furber - richie.snecca(at)hotmail.co.uk

I'm no longer an official but for the general public I will give the answers in this post. I refer to John Alani for the official answers to the SCHRS committee ;


F16 specs (unchanged)

Daggerboards = yes
Overall length = max 5.00 mtr as measured on the hulls between extremities excl. pintles.
Spinnaker area = max 17.5 sq. mtr. as measured by the Texel/ISAF rules.
Crew = either MIN. 1 or 2 sailors depending on configuration (as in without or with jib).

Overall boat weight 1-up = min. 104 kg
overall boat weight 2-up = min. 107 kg

Daggerboard area = 0.2 sq. mtr.
daggerboard length = 0.70 mtr.

This results in a daggerboard of aspect ratio 2.45.



New (Changed) specs F16 (post april 2005)

Mainsail actual area = max. 15.00 sq. mtr. (as measured by Texel/ISAF rules)
Mainsail luff length = max. 8.10 mtr (after applying full downhaul tension as per Texel/ISAF rules)

Jibsail actual area = max. 3.70 sq. mtr. (as measured by Texel/ISAF rules)
Jibsail luff OR leech length = max. 6.00 mtr (as measued by Texel/ISAF rules)

However I have yet to know a single F16 that goes over 5.50 mtr on the jib luff/leech. Our hound fitting height is limiting our jibs to these max. actual measurements.




The F16 class rules don't rule on the daggerboard dimensions. So we can't provide hard data on that. Last time the SCHRS committee agreed to take the average of the F16 boats at that time. This included the Taipan 4.9, Bim 16 and Stealth R. This resulted in the data :

Daggerboard area = 0.2 sq. mtr.
daggerboard length = 0.70 mtr.
aspect ratio 2.45.


Both the Taipan and Blade designs use less daggerboard area and much less daggerboard length resulting in a lower aspect ratio of 1.9 which is less then the given 2.45. So in that sense their performance is overestimated by the specs given above. The Stealth F16 uses slightly less board area and a slightly more length and comes out at a aspect ratio of exactly 3. The Bim design was eventually dropped from the F16 class so we won't look at that one again. The G-cat F16 doesn't have daggerboards so we'll leave that one out of this analysis as well.

The average value between the three F16 boats included is : (1.9 + 3) / 2 = 2.45

So I feel the average value agreed upon earlier is still applicable.

If the SCHR committee does not agree with that then I propose they use the dimensions of the Stealth F16 instead =

0.1875 by 0.75 mtr aspect ratio = 3

This is the most performant daggerboard specs (under SCHRS handicap math) of all F16's even though 75 % of the F16 class is using boards that are nowhere near those specs.

For example the Taipan/Blade daggerboards are 0.1595 by 0.55 = aspect ratio = 1.9


I hope this helps.


Wouter

Thanks Wouter, all good info.

Cheers

Simon

OK, It's done. The results have been amended on Marconi's web site using 0.98 for the Stealth F16 1-up.

http://www.marconi-sc.org.uk/661D9/East_...sults_2006.aspx

Droped to 2nd and left cursing running aground at Thirstle and every other little hicup over the course.
Interestingly a 0.99 would have created a dead heat.

Bad luck. Still a damn good show - 0.98 seems pretty mean against the Shadow's 1.07.

Paul

Everyone runs aground on Thurslet spit at some point while sailing at Marconi.

Kit it at full chat a few years ago (but plates were well up and the rudders just kicked up.

Slight problem was that the Kite was up !

Next year we should have a new set of numbers to use <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Good sportsmanship Aaron!

Should give you a nice warm feeling inside....<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Indeed. Top Job Aaron.

Been playing with the results a little and (with the excel spreadsheet I have) on 0.99 you would have been second by 1 second only <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />