Anyone weighed the VM Blade?

Has any one weighed the VM Blade, fully rigged or in components?

How about the Stealth?

I'd hope they are both 107 2 up and 104 single handed ! (with correctors)

When I first got my (old style) Stealth, I made an attempt to weigh it using two bathroom scales. It was not an easy job and I'm not altogether certain that it was accurate as the scales didn't really settle due to there being a bit of a breeze about that was causing the boat to 'wobble' a bit.

What I thought was my best attempt gave a reading of 116Kg (56Kg + 60Kg), so my particular Stealth is a bit overweight <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />. Being one of the first F16s built, I'm not surprised (or disappointed).

So no one has weighed a Blade???

How about a newer Stealth???

Not I, I should though. hmmmmm

is the method of using two bathroom scales on level ground (concrete) a good way to do this? Will it give an accurate number (assuming the scales are fairly accurate themselves)?

I can try this, as my boat is in my driveway.

Obviously, hanging scales would be more accurate, but I do not have access to that equip.

Tom, I don't know that it would be accurate enough for a Champs, but it is a quick(ish) way of getting some idea of weight.

Two scales (preferably the same) one under each hull at the balance point (just at the front of the plate cases on the Stealth). You can 'trim' the balance with loose items such as daggerboards and rudders. On the day I did mine there was a bit of a breeze and the boat was moving around a little bit so a still day is best.

As you probably know, you just add the two readings. I took about four attempts before I felt the boat had been settled enough to trust the readings. That's when I got the 56 and the 60.

I weighed my Blade today...sloop rigged and hoisted it by a fish scale from the spi' pole. No bent poles here--as vertical compression on the pole handles the weight just fine <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Okay that wasn't really true! (For the enjoyment of Robi and Wouter) <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I did weigh it at the local weigh station (for trash hauls and such). Quite funny experience as the attendant thought I wanted to weigh the boat and trailer...No..No..just the boat. Apparently no one has ever wanted to weigh JUST THE BOAT.

I'm not sure this is helpful as the accuracy of the scales are +/- 20 lbs and hadn't been calibrated recently.

Weight was 260 lbs.

P.S. I know what some will think ... "but tback capsizes alot and probably had water in each hull". Inspected all four ports and no extra weight due to H20. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hmmmm...didn't check the mast though.

So that's 118Kgs? Maybe my boat's not so heavy after all <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I heard, that the prototype blade, which is the blade that was weighed by Terry, is a bit heavier than production blades.

Only MattM will be able to confirm this information.

My 12ft is in the mail <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Some years ago we did the comparison between weighing a cat on multiple bathroom scales and by "hanging" the boat under our (accurate) 250kg scales (dedicated scales for just this type of weighing) and we found that 1. Bathroom scales are notoriously inaccurate, and 2. There was quite a large discrepancy between the weight from the bathroom scales and the correct weight, (as much as +/-15kgs in 200kgs total)

So that would be about 7Kgs per 100Kgs or 7%.

On that basis my boat could actually be close to min weight <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> or it could also be 16Kgs over <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />!!

Interestingly, waaay back in the early eighties at Kiele Woche, the Tornados were weighed in using 4 identical 'bathroom' style scales - obviously they were properly calibrated pro types. It was the first event where we weren't weighed from a gantry and it was the first time my boat came out under and I had to find another half Kg!!!

Being out of things for such a long time now, what's the 'standard' practice? Is it still a case of hanging the boat?

Still hanging the boat, but they often use load cells these days instead of scales.

Yes, where at all possible.

I just took delivery of my Kevlar Blade here in OC, CA. When I have it fully assembled, I'll take boat and trailer to a scale at a local metal yard and weigh them together and then the trailer by itself. That should get it pretty close.
John, Blade ? (haven't unrolled the sail yet)

Not sure that will be accurate enough. Best check what the tolerances are on them; or are they "proper" hanging hanging scales. I assume by you saying that you will weigh boat+trailer and then trailer that they are "big weight" drive on ones for cars / trucks / lorries etc, If so I don't think they are going to be anywhere near accurate enough to pick up +- 5 or 10kg

Still will be interesting mind.

Don't know if this means anything, but I've seen my boat on the DHL web site and they think my Blade weighs 215.5. (It says kg, but I think it must be lb.) The dispatcher says that I'll see my boat, finally, tomorrow. I've one bathroom scale, should I weigh each end of each box giving me eight numbers to play with. Probably if I leveled the box with blocks of wood at the end opposite the scale the error in my cheep Chinese scale would be greater than the error in my method .....?

We weighed my mosquito with one set of bathroom scales in the middle with just a plank across it for the boat to balance on. We piled all the equipment on top then subtracted the weight of the plank.
I just had to crawl under the tramp to read the scales. Otherwise it was easy. It's also as accurate as the scales can be.

So how much did your mosquito weigh?

That is probably the boat WITH the crating combined. So kg's over LBS

Wouter

But it's packaged in card board. 215 kg (x) 2.2 = 474 lb.'s..?
It's coming without jib or jib rigging and one kevlar layer, but still......maybe someone is being nice to Vectorworks.

Bathroom scales are very sensitive to the positioning of the weight, despite overly optimistic devaition which is often indiacted on the scale. Depending on your method (1, 2,4 scales) you may be outside the region where the scale is accurate or has a linear reponse. When using multiple scales the absolute uncertainty of each reading adds to the total uncertainty, so your measurement can be off by several kg's.

Well, my Blade arrived yesterday about 1:15 and after inspecting the shipping containers I figured I should open the boxes to see if there was any damage, completely forgetting about bathroom scales and leveling boxes and shipping weight. I was like a ten year old at Christmas opening box after box and carefully inspecting all the beautiful hardware, hulls, blades and boards. There is a dimple in one of the hulls which has an outer layer of kevlar so I don't know it is significant.

Is that dimple on the port hull just forward of the front beam? I have the same sort of thing.

Is the dimple an inny or an outy?

How does a a sensible thread relating to the exact wieght of a bladder get turned around into where your dimples are? Have we all gone mad.

I once had a dimple on my bum from a badly placed fitting on a mono-maran, does that count?

My comment was serious (even if the terminology wasn't). An inwards dimple on a brand new boat usually means that the mould is damaged or something has been dropped on it at the factory. While an outwards dimple could also mean mould damage, it could also be an early sign of delamination which could be a sign of something far more major. Are they using Epoxy or Polyester resin resin?

It wasn't sarcasm Scarecrow, its called "humour" sorry if it offended

I'm very thick skinned Darryl, it takes a lot more than sarcasm to make me cry (or even confuse me for that matter), I was trying to bring the conversation back to my question so I could find out the answer.

Don't you have to officially weigh your boat like you do with an F18 (to get an F16 rating)? If anyone has competed already in official races, someone should be able to tell us how much a Blade weighs ....

Ragards,
Gill

Is is between the beams ?

If so I wouldn't worry too much about it. I'm sorry to see a dimple in your new hulls, that is for sure. But if it is between the beams then the loading in that area will not be such that the dimple is of any major significance. In this case just go sailing and regulary check the area around it, keeping an eye on it. If it ever delaminates then I feel the repair is straight forward enough. The specifics of the repairs in not my speciality, but quite a few people then just drill a small hole in the outer class layer and inject some epoxy resin to retore cohesion between the class layer and the compressed foam. But a professional repair is always an option as well. Personally I've seen many boats with such dimples last for years and years as long as the area around it feels solid (no delamination present).

Wouter

I think there are using Vinylester resin.

See : http://www.vectorworkssail.com/f16.html


Wouter

Currently the European F16's need to have either a Texel or a SCHRS measurement performed before entering official races.

The new F16 governing council is working on getting a world-wide measuring protocal into place. In the later stages of my class chairmanship I discussed this with the new chairman and he had progressed significantly on the issue. I don't know the status of this project at this time. I'm sure we'll hear more about it.

Wouter

It is anticipated that the final version of the measurement forms and guidance, to be read in conjunction with the rules, will be issued early in Sptember 2007. At that time the F16GC will also announce the name of the Chief Measurer for the F16 Class.

This may be slightly off topic…

For a sailing community who is always complaining about the lack of interest in Catamaran sailing...it seems one would be a bit more thoughtful about what one said about a new boat design/boat builder (Vectorworks is not new to boat building by any stretch of the imagination but new to this market). Especially when facts are in short supply.

Do the writers of these jabs have any concept of the level of expertise that Vectorworks commands? Go to their main web site and take a look... http://www.vectorworks.com/

This is just my opinion... It seems to me that Vectorworks is benefiting the catamaran community by offering fresh products here in the US utilizing their state of the art engineering and manufacturing...their time/energy/resources could be more financially rewarded being utilized for manufacturing products other than small sailing catamarans...One look at the VW Blade and you can see it is a beautiful execution of a beautiful design. Over stating little glitches in hardware and such (that plagues every boat that has ever floated in water) gives a false sense of quality issues.

Before someone makes a federal case out of a “dimple”… Will… call Vectorworks and give the manufacture a chance to address the problem… otherwise it will get all blown out of proportion on the internet by people making everything from “educated” to “wild butt” guesses based on incomplete information.

Regards,
Bob

Just been pointed out to me that there is a typo in my post:



Should, of course, read ........September 2006.......

Sorry!

Sorry Mary. I didn't see your question.

The Mosquito was 92kg. That's cat rigged with spinnaker. My platform is actually 10 years old and 2-3kg over the minimum allowed so I would expect the new Mosquitos to be just under 90kg sailing weight.

Just by the way, most foam/kevlar Mosquitos have corrector weights to bring them up to weight. Some as much as 5kg. Minimum platform weight is 55kg.

Sorry, I didn't mean to start anything about Vectorworks. The "dimple" is an inny, 2 feet ahead of the aft beam and 1 foot down from the tramp guide. There is a mark in the cardboard packaging corresponding to the location of the dimple. Matt McDonald said, "IF the dent is just an imprint with no cracking of the laminate around it, then there is no structural issue with the hull". I was glad to hear or read that as I would hate to repackage my Beautiful new Blade sailing catamaran and subject it to another trip across the country. I am looking foreword to the day when the trailer is done and the boat is assembled and I am gingerly sliding her into the local lake for her first sail.
Will

All manufacturers survive or die by the quality of their produce. If your new car arrived with a dent in the front fender would you accept it, certainly not, if it failed by having been supplied with a poor engine would we not hand it back to the nearest dealership. Why then do we accept poor workmanship / poor quality fittings etc from catamaran manufacturers when in truth the total cost of our new cat is probably more than the new car towing it to the beach.

If the hull was damaged in transit then ask the fowarding company to have the damaged area repaired, you after all purchased a " new " boat and would expect its condition to be that.

We must also be careful to not hide faults from other prospective buyers of cats as this forum should be totally unbiased and should be a " free " discussion totally independant of the manufacturers.

I think the situation is vastly different in the rest of the world to what we experience here in the UK.

To a great extent we are spoiled by having several high quality cat, boat and yacht manufacturers based here. In addition we have good dealerships for those boats not built or fitted out here.

On each occasion that I have bought a new boat, whether UK built or imported via a Dealer, the boat has either been as perfect as I would expect or has been rectified to my satisfaction by the Dealer or the builder. UK bought boats don't tend to be shipped huge distances and we still tend to collect them ourselves from the builder/dealer.

In Will's case it's highly unlikely that VWM would have shipped the boat with a defect. When you're fitting out it's almost impossible to miss something like that.

I would have thought that Will has a case against the shipper in UK law but I don't know the specifics in his situation in the USA.

Wayne,
It's 1930 miles from my house to Vectorworks Marine, and 3088 kilometers from Vectorworks Marine to my house. I would have liked to have driven out there and picked up the boat on a trailer and driven home. That would have been at least a week and many hotels with my boat fending for itself while I slept is some strange town. There was a time when I liked to hold small business's nose to the grind stone and caused a few of them to decide to go out of business. My high achievement was an argument with MCI about being double charged for 'something' on my phone bill. I won that one and they sent me a check for 75 cents times 2, (for 2 months). I cashed the check. In two months I'll be sixty, I ordered this boat in May, I can usually sail up into November. I took about a dozen pictures until I got one that really showed off the 'dimple'. Had the hull not been so shiny, I'd probably not have seen it. If you don't mind, I'd prefer to have a boat with a small blemish than to be waiting 10 days as the hull goes to Titusville, seven days waiting for someone to fix it up so it looks good, and another ten days while it traveles back home, enduring what possible misfortune along the way? I for one don't have time to worry about the imperfections of others when so much fun beckons to me from my not-yet-assembled F-16. A quote from Matt McDonald last year, 'you probably won't know if you like this boat until you get a ride on one'. I went to Titusville to get that ride in March, but didn't decided until May 2 to buy the boat. It was kind of difficult for me to decide but at this point I'm quite pleased.
Will Lints

I too travelled to Florida last March for a test ride on a Blade. Was impressed & had to buy one. Choose the kevlar outer & carbon foils options. It was shipped halfway around the globe and arrived in Dubai a week ago in perfect condition. No complaints about VWM from me!

That is VERY nice Davidh. What sort of cats are you sailing against, and are you mainly solo or two-up?

David,

May I invite you to place your flag on our world membership map at :

http://www.frappr.com/formula16classgroup

It shows were we all are. Currently 71 members did so.

Best of luck and enjoyment with your new boat.

Is the Spitfire catamaran of Peter and Carol Eldridge at the same water venue as you will keep your boat ?

Wouter

WOW! My decals are travelling the world with the Blade boats! im so proud!

Anyway, seems like the Dubai boat has the snuffer further foward now. Nice! I like that setup, leaves less room for the spinnaker to get tangled on the bridles.

Enjoy the boats gents

Hi & thanks for the welcome.

We sail from Jebel Ali Sailing Club. Currently 3 spitfires, 2 shadows, 5 F18's (cirrus, tiger & nacra), Topcat K1's, H16's & a Tornado. Peter E owns one of the Spitfires.

Plan to sail 2up with the wife, at 64kg, just too light on my own, but will give it a go. Even 2up, we'll be light at 109kg. Originating from Oz, as long as my wife can hang in there, I'm not phased with the strong winds.

In Dubai, summers almost at an end (summer=45degC, not many people get out on the water in summer) and the racing will be starting up over the next few weeks.

David

3 Spits, 5 F18's and your F16, that is some nice sailing/racing fleet you got there. First in wins all the way. At your 109 kg weight doublehanded you'll rock in the light stuff but really need to use every trick in the depower book when it is heavy. Spinnaker riding however will be your strong point by far, I'm jalous of that.

Best of luck !

Wouter

Hi David,

welcome to F16, that is a round about way of getting a Australian designed boat via the USA <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />. Hope you get back to sail in OZ one day, by then the Blade will hopefully be made in OZ. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Don't worry about your weight, I was cleaned up by a two up Taipan with about that weight on board at the states, it's fast.

Regards Gary. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hi Gary,
Not worried by the lack of weight, I've always had this problem. Used to race TheMightyHobie18(always on min crew weight) at Toukley and always done well. In Dubai, and around the world, sailing H16's on min weight & Topcat k1's at a very light weight, we've always done well in 20kn+. I suspect it is more us sailing consistently across a larger wind range and others starting to struggle in 20kn+. I've read some posts here talking ideal weights for 1up and 2up and to be honest disagree. If it's ok to sail 1up with a weight around 100kg, why would it not be ok to be around the same weight 2up. Just think....4 hands rather than 2 and more weight distribution options. On the extreme days (very rare in dubai) we also have the option to leave the jib at home (I don't think there is a rule opposing this). Also, GlennA cut the sails for our weight, and the average wind in Dubai (10kn). I think we'll be competitive in most conditions. We'll be on the water next week, less talk & more sailing!

Regards
David

Wayne,

Whilst I don't believe that we should "censor" what we post here, it's very easy for a forum like this to create a misleading impression of the number of problems, as generally people only post when they've got an issue to talk about. Our success as a class is very much tied to the success of the manufacturers supporting it and whilst we should not cover up for bad workmanship or bad service (and as far as I know we don't have any of that in the F16 world) it's worth bearing in mind the overall impression created by discussing the issues in public.

When comparing the price of boats with the price of cars it's worth remembering that cars come from the mass-manufacturing world that we've all become used to. Not only does this give huge economies of scale, but it also allows for far more testing - car manufacturers can afford to write-off more cars in the testing of one model than any manufacturer has ever sold F16s. Buying a catamaran is more like buying a brand new house than buying a car. When buying a new house, a small number of "snagging" issues are expected. The key question is whether the issues are dealt with well. As far as I'm aware, the level of post-sales support from the F16 manufacturers (and importers) is nothing short of excellent.

As far as damage in transit, the issue should definitely be taken up with the carrier, although it somewhat depends on the terms of shipping. There are car body-shops that get a decent proportion of their work from sorting out dings in brand new cars. The reason your brand new car that you collect from the local dealer doesn't have a ding in its fender (is that the wing or the bumper ? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ) may be because it's already been to the body shop...

Paul

Sounds ok : Stealth #534 (Bahrt Luis') & #536 (ours, 1/2 carbon version, built Nov 2004) were officially weighed at Texel 2005 on a very impressive set of 3 load cells with digital read-out. 534 was 116kg & 536 was 125kg. My guess would be that good ones will weigh in the region of 116kg, others will just be more.

cheers
Pete McD