The Magic Formula for a Successful Class ?

Folks,

I'd like to hear what people believe is needed to make a class successful. If you see a combimation of things what is the most important and why.

I have my own views on this subject but I'd really like to hear what other F16 sailors think.

Regards,
Phill

How would you define successful? The C-class is pretty successful in my opinion, in bringing forth the fastest sailing yacht under 25feet. But I assume you mean a large and vital class?


Inclusiveness. New sailors (and old) must feel that they are welcome to the class and part of a succesful group. Especially so when racing. If you feel outside of the group, you will soon look for a new group (I believe this is "confirmed" by psychology litterature, e.g. Maslows pyramid: http://www.itiadventure.com/Maslow.jpg ). Studying Maslows pyramid, you will see the most important, basic, needs lowest down, and self-actualisation at the top. I think this is pretty descriptive of what sailors look for, but different sailors seek different levels of the pyramid. For some the basic inclusiveness and having fun is enough, while others want to be the class champion and achieve self-actualisation trough racing.

Important points to attract new sailors are affordability, image of the class and publicity. Attracting new sailors to a class is just as important as keeping the old ones in the class.

The magic will not happen unless there are some "sparkplugs" who start things and keep them rolling.
To get the first boats on the water, you need something special like the one-up/two up options of the F-16. Or somebody well-connected sets up the class and gets it going trough sponsors/spending money, like the Vx40 or SeaCart30.

Good post Rolf.

Adding to it, I think activeness. If you have a class of any particular boat and there are no sailors willing to actively race the boat, then it will eventually dwindle away.

Well said Rolf, couldn't agree more!

Sameness and longevity of design. In this counrty there are thousandds of stunnning development style boats that are no longer competitive and so are worth nothing and no longer "useful". I have just bought a very sound R class for the price of dinner out for two and will make it into a sailing skiff. I will sell the rig etc for more than I paid for the boat. The sailor of this sort of boat often stays with it and slowly drops out of the "respect" of the faster, newer boats and in the end and is no longer on the beach to welocme newbies and fill out the fleet while having the experience to push near top sailors to better things.
The Paper Tiger is an example of a boat that just keeps on keeping on delivering great competition and technicaly demanding sailing style. The fact the chap who buys a fagged out H16 can see himself in a champions boat for less than a tenth of the price allows a heap of new start ups in the class financially.
Which is the best sports car in the World? Porche 911. How long has it stuck with its basic design... forever.
Not what a formular style class wants to hear but to ignoring that truth does ot help understand the answer.
What will be very important to a formular style of boat is that the formualr IS NOT changed to accommddate new fashions. Like Americas cup all of the boats over 15 years will start to be essentially the same so long as rules are not changed. Should F18 have a lighter weight restriction? Tomorrow morning if they are going to do it or never. The day they do it the present fleet dies. Manufacturers hopefully understand why Hobie is so successful and won't go for short term gains.

C class by the way is hugely successful as a formular to create great strides in tech ect but hopeless from a class for group participation perspective. It can only just stay on the radar as far as that is concerned. I predict three to four years of heated competition and then a three million dollar 25 foot beach cat will let everyone else racing is over for another decade.

A good Yacht/Sailing Club is the grass roots to any form of sailing. If the majority of people are friendly enthusiastic and forthcoming with information then what ever boat is sailed the members will feel very positive and upbeat whether sailing an Optimist or Tornado. Maslow, Hertsberg or Katz is a bit deep for me but give me a pint or two and I can sing the virtues of Sailing... and as for a good 'Class' then thats not going to be easy as we all have different agendas. Somebody famous once said you can please some of the people some of the time but you can't please all of the people all of the time. Everybody makes mistakes (don't I know it) and so do Classes. My personal expierence of some of the UK Classes is that they get so big they forget the little people and the worm always turns. Luckily for us if the worm turns there is always somebody who will put them back on track.

I think some of the most important things are openness, honesty, willing to listen to others opinions and also the willingness of those at the top of the class to help those lower down.


I think most classes could learn from the Musto Performance Skiff class in the UK. They ran 6 (yes six) free training sessions at the same time all over the UK for anyone who wanted to attend.

If I ever wanted a single handed 1/2 boat, I would by an MPS !

Scooby, I also think having the top sailors help the new ones is very important. Getting new people into any sport is always difficult but if there are free events to train new people, that will certainly help. The top sailors then will have a stronger resale market for their boats when they want to buy a new one. The new sailor gets a good boat set up right, at a discount.

With sailing the cutting edge technology will always bring in the top sailors (America's Cup, C cats, A cats) but a cheaper and more available entry will bring in more sailors, which is why the Laser and Hobie 16 still have the biggest numbers even though they are about the oldest designs out there still being raced in large numbers. They fill the role of "entry level racing boat" but the new ones are still raced by some of the best, so that covers a wide spectrum of sailors. You can get an old one cheap to learn on then trade your way up as you get better. One of the first things non-sailing people ask me (especially the Dads) is, "How much does one of those things cost?" I always tell them I bought my first one for $500. I never say, "Well a new one is $15,000, plus a trailer, plus wheels, plus..." because that will put anyone new to the sport off immediately.

But most of all I think there has to be other people to race against who are willing to share their knowledge with the new sailors. And every class needs a "Guru" available to the rest of the fleet. Look at what Wouter has done with the F16's. Look at what Dermot has done in Dublin with the Spitfire fleet, Andi Lutz with the F18HT's in Switzerland and what Matt is doing over here with the Blade. These guys have worked their butts off. Using their own money and time they have built strong local fleets by brining in new sailors, using their boats as demo rides and sharing their knowledge. Like all good things in life, it takes Time, Money and Hard Work. OH, and it has to be fun! If there's going to be a lot of yelling and screaming, well I can get that at home for free. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Free yelling and screaming, where do I get some of that!!??

Just come to my house and tell my wife I'm buying a new boat.. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

I have been on holiday for the past 2 weeks and have just come home for our Inland Champs ( http://www.blsc.ie/2006/Cat%20Inlands/inlandos.html ), so I have not being keeping an eye on the forum recently. I am heading away again tomorrow, but I would just like to say that I get almost as much pleasure from taking a beginner out sailing on a cat and seeing the look of amazement and pleasure on their face, as I get when winning a race.

Tim,

Just arrive home with that new boat and tell you're wife you *won it* by being best-in-your class at that Delta Flight Simuluator School.

Always has worked for me. (Yelling and screaming subside after about 1 week...new boat lasts for years!).

I figured I'd just call her and tell her I got a new boat...and a new place to live, then see how long it takes her to find me! Wouter, you need a roomate? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Nice job on the racing Dermot!

Good question and topic Phill.

Reading the comments and input I see some really good remarks. I like what Timbo is writing.

One of my favorite’s examples of how not to do it, is the one of the Windsurfing industry, which goes as follows:

In the late 70’s and early 80’s windsurfing was really hot <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />. Around here (I grew up in Zandvoort, the Netherlands about 500 meters from the beach and had the opportunity to learn cat sailing and windsurfing age 10 <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />)on a good windsurfing day you would see about 100 to 150 windsurfers going wild on the North sea. This little village even facilitated the windsurfing Pro’s tournament once a year for quite some years in a row. I am talking about the good old days with guys like Pete Cabrina and Robby Naish.

In that same period everybody who wanted to surf could buy/ rent a (cheap) board and sail, take some lessons and just go out and do their thing. Age and budget did not matter! In the Netherlands we had tens of thousand of windsurfers

Than the designers and manufacturers made a horrible mistake to concentrate on the top level of windsurfers only. Within just a couple of years it was close to impossible to buy/ rent a decent starters board and sail. This sport managed to whipe out the complete starters and lower segment of the market. By the end of the 80’s and early 90’s windsurfers became a rare species, and this was before kite surfing became popular.

Bottom line is that even for a high performance class like the F16 one should not forget to facilitate newcomers (for the F16 class and cat sailing in general). This should not prevent the class from any developments and evolution but one should consider that only a small number of people will be able to keep up the pace if developments go to fast.

Regards,

Frank
Blade NED 013

Your post is absolutely right.

Frank, you are correct, (and I used to windsurf way back in 1983) you must have an entry level to feed the top level or the sport will quickly die. I would be interested to see the Hobie sales numbers for the Wave and H16 vs. the Tiger and other top end boats. I'll bet they sell many more of the Waves and H16's.

I have often thoght the Wave would make a much better entry level sailboat than the Opti. You can put more than one kid on it and you can even put a parent with a couple children on it. My kids did not like the Opti because they did not like being alone in a very small boat. (Scared an Alligator would eat them!) But they liked the Wave we rented.

Also for any class to be successful, it needs a means to comunicate, so I thank Mary and Rick for the magazine and this web site! Without them I would still be racing lead mines...slowly going nowhere at great expense. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

What has happened with the G-Cat?

qoute The stirdy boardless design is especially attractive to recreational sailors who seek high performance combined with practical family use. qoute

I think this platform, expandable to a full F16 and the talk of a rental model (a step up from a Wave) are excellent ideas. Would a G-Cat without a spinnaker be as much fun as an H16 for starter/family boat? I'd think so, and easier to use with the self tacking jib. There seems to be a recreational sailor and casual racer fear of the third sail (gennaker). Consequently the sailor of the F16 will most likely come from another class. We here can hope it's not from a multihull class, but a keel or centerboard. The only thing better than what you've got going right now would be a direct entry level boat, ala the G Cat concept.

The prototype G cat F16 and another 5.0 G cat are both listed in the Classifieds here.

Mary and Blonde Dolly,

You are spot on, concentrating on racing and go faster bits is no way to really grow a class. The best selling boats are slow boats that are easy to sail and easy to own and very few cats (wave being an exception) are that. I am sure the F16 class will grow, compared to another racing cat, but will flounder compared to most really succesful classes like lasers and optimists.

Gareth

How can you build on something as a sport when a new set of daggerboards for a boat costs 1500$$$ ?

p.s. I in NO WAY mean to criticize the blade or any cat for that matter (because a blade is my dream boat, honestly), but what is entry level about that? I guess you could say the f16 isn't "entry level" for that matter, but then again, neither is the 6.0, infusion, tiger, N20 or capricorn. So what is entry level? The beat up H16 that requires hours of glass work to make sail worthy? Or a wave? I agree that wave OD racing has to be good, but if you really want to get someone interested in cat sailing would you take them out on a wave or something more "high performance?"

Depends on the person (and on the wind conditions at the time). What turns one person on might scare somebody else away.

Everybody,


I'm feel compelled to inform a few of us here that myths, no matter how often repeated, are still not truths.

While some builders will ask 1500 US$ for a pair of daggerboards (marstrom ?) the F16 builders most definately do not ! At least my own AHPC daggerboards were 350 Euro's for the pair or about 420 US$

Also the myth boat par excellence is the Hobie 16. Here in Europe a new (and complete) H16 will cost about 13.000 Euro's. There is a cheaper Hobie 16 but it lacks all kinds of stuff like the second trapeze and such. An excellent F16 with a good number of full carbon bits is the Stealth F16 which can be bought for 8000 british pounds or roughly 12.500 Euro's.

So if the new Hobie 16 is an entry boat dus to its low cost price then so too is the Stealth F16.

I do agree however that in the way of performance and handling the F16's are not entry level boats. They are however entry level boats for RACING. The latter does assume the sailors gained skills and experience prior on other boats.

Personally I believe the only true entry level boats are older second hand H16's, P16's, N5.0's and Waves. These can be bought for a few thousant dollars or Euro (or cheaper) and are well suited to learn the basic sailing and racing skills that will prepare the crews for true race oriented designs like the F18's, A's, F16's and such.

Having said this I'm happy to see a more lively second hand market for F16's develop; were F16's can be purchased for as little as 5000-7000 as well.

In my opinion no boat can be both "cheap entry level" and race oriented. So F16 positioned itself as the next best thing that was achievable "Entry level racing boat". However it is this mostly in the field of cost as the skills needed for the handling are further removed from boats like waves etc. But then again skills can be learned, financial burdens are harder to overcome.

Wouter

Mary,
I want to take a wave out in high winds but the place where I would rent one won't rent them if the winds get that high. I am sure it is a blast in about 18-20 knots.
pp

A race ready second hand H15 in NZ is about 2,500 Euros and that is a realistic entry level cost. Nobody is arguing that Hobie are "working" the cash cow they have created. They are the Cocoa Cola of beach cats. But the fact is that in most NZ boat shops you can at least order new parts. Walk into any of those stores and ask for an F16 part and they would not know what you were talking about.
I am not arguing with your sense of what is realistic as far as value (and speed) for buck are concerned. but do newbies want to buy into that or just find a fleet to race with?
Paper Tiger fleets are very competitive in the States, NZ and Aussie. To sail a PT well understanding of high ratio duel end Rotation/vang and downhauls is needed, not to mention, outhaul, remote dagger boards and adjustable rigging are needed. In depth understanding of sail shape and mast settings (while sailing) are essential to sail this boat well.
These boats have anual Worlds.
In what way would an old Prindle 16 so outpace that as a trainer for your boat Wouter?

I'd be asking for the appropiate Harken fitting (or what ever I want)

Clearly I was talking about specific manufacturers parts such as rudders, beams, and all manner of other parts pertaining particularly to Hobie whereas an AHPC dagger board or a Stealth front beam would not be so acheivable... I understand that any store will carry generic blocks but I am struggling to understand your point.

I don't know how many stores in your neck of the woods stock specific hobie parts like beams, mast and rudders, but overhere in the Netherlands ONLY the official hobie dealor does. So the point here is that either the parts are generic, like harken blocks etc, and can be bought everywhere no matter what make of boat OR the parts are very builder specific and then only the dealor has them, again without much difference between having a single Hobie dealor and a single F16 dealor.

I don't see your points as a matter of fact. I think you are just describing mental limits in your own mind which are not really limits in real life.

I'm sorry,

Wouter

Surely the point about an 'open' or formula class as opposed to SMOD or even MMOD is that if I wanted a new mast for my non-SMOD boat I could ring round several spar makers and choose a suitable replacement based on price or quality or reputation or delivery or different section or anything I choose to be important to me (such as the colour of the spreaders <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />).

The same principle is applicable to sails, beams, rudders etc.

With SMOD you get what 'they' say you can have and pay the (inflated) going rate.

mate, I dont know how viable the PT is in other areas. However here where once it had a fleet of 30+ boats it now as dead as a a dodo..
As is the kitty cat... 3 clubs each had 20 or so boats..
Why? The kitty didnt update and when they had the time it was decided to keep everything the same.. When the east coast realised the west coast fleet was sick it was too late.. The gun sailors and class admins had moved on..
A case of not evolving....
Saying this.. both classes could have remained viable.. cheap to home build. fast, light, affordable.. Without the guns and the admin.. its all moot...

Phill,
In answer to your original question, I think the most important thing is developing class loyalty. I don't know about other countries, but in the United States I haven't seen much of that in catamarans except for the Hobie 16 Class and the Shark Class (which just held its 44th annual National Championship and has two and three generations of families sailing Sharks).

When you find that kind of loyalty, and bonding among the people who love a certain class of boat, it is a beautiful thing.

But that, again, begs the question of how to build a successful class and keep it together. How do you create "class loyalty"?

And, then, of course, there is also the question of what constitutes a "Successful" class -- is it numbers, or is it longevity?

My point Wouter, if you read more than one page back is in regards to what make s a SUCCESSFUL class that VAILABLITY of parts IS an issue for NEWBIES wanting to make a decision for what class to go into. While YOUR mind is clear THIERS may not be and to ignore THAT reality is having your head in the sand in reagards to making F16 and easy choice and a successful class. My point about Hobie parts is that there ARE Hobie dealers and they ARE easy to find and the parts ARE easy to buy off the rack or order whereas F16 parts ARE NOT. That is REALITY as you call it. The main dealers of such things in Auckland, one of the biggest sailing cities of the World don't even know what F16 is! .
As far as the issues of this particular discussion it does not matter what you think Wouter, it matters what the newbie LOOKING IN sees not what you see looking out!
So,accepting that parts may be an issue for some newcomers a smaller class looking out might see it as very important to make finding and buying parts an easy path and make that clear with a website specific for parts World wide and help get that information to people looking into the sport and judging the realities of it. Or, on the other hand that sport could decide it is not a problem and not look to help those people and not create those paths to a decision for F16.
My Taipan 4.9 was under a thousand euros to buy because no one knows what it is or where to race it or where to get parts.
Don't be sorry Wouter, look up out of the boat at the whole story! ; )

Here in Australia a lot of class associations stock standard products (mast sections, booms, beams, etc.) and sell them at cost price (or close to it).

This is a great way to keep ppl in the class as all the potentially hard to find products are at hand. Ofcourse this doesn't help if there isn't an association nearby, as I found out recently.

Classes that have association stock I can think of are the heron, 125 and mosquito, all of which are fairly successful or growing classes atm.

If I can just but in here the one couple who remain very quite but have done a tremendous amount of good work for the F16 Class in the UK and Europe is John Pierce and Sue. They alone have put so much time, effort and their money into promoting the Class (primarily Stealths) and can not be thanked enough. Not only did they win numerous long distance races to put F16's on the map, they will always give helpfull advice no matter how daft the question.
I Know it is in their best interests to help as they are in the market to sell boats but their help, advise and friendship means a hell of alot more that most salespersons. As the F16 Class continues to grow in the UK I just hope that we can all still remain loyal to the John Pierce ethos of sailing enjoyment whether you are first, last or just out for a sail.
As long as J&S are still promoting F16's then the people who purchase Stealth's will have a brilliant back-up team who often go that extra mile to help. This to my mind is priceless and I doubt that many classes can boast this level of commitment.

I wish that was the case here as I would have perhaps kept my boat standard. As it was a carbon mast off an A cat off 800 was just too good a deal against over 2,000 for AHPC replacement.

Warbird,

Despite all the Hobie dealor babble the F16's are selling larger number of boat in area's like the USA then Hobie is selling their FX-one. So I'm really not too sure how important that Hobie dealor network truly is. It is not an unimportant issue, but I question whether it is one of the most important issues.

And Warbird lets not forget that I was instrumental in getting this F16 class from nothing into a emerging class internationally. All while NOT having a Hobie like dealor network. The FX-one design is still very much struggling at that. So I think I do have a full picture of the situation; don't you agree ?

Would I love to have a dealor network like Hobie ? Yes.

Would we ever get one ? Doubtfull even in the long run.

Will we need one ? Not really, there are other ways; DHL and Fedex are a gift from haven for us.

Furthermore I really do not believe that the F16 boats and class is at all attractive to real novices. The boat is just too complicated and challenging for that. Those sailors will always gravitate to very inexpensive second hand boats like 10 year old beat up Hobie's and likewise boats. It is the sailors which have a few years on such a boat and who are looking for a upgrade that the F16 class is attractive too. These are more serious about their sailing and have learned how NOT to break rudders and other design specific stuff often. The smaller stuff that does still wear down like blocks and lines can then be readily bought at your hobie dealor and everything is fine.

This is the way we always played it and look at where it has brought us. We are the only new class with any shot at greater international succes in the last 10 years; a role possible shared with the Spitfire design. So we must be doing something right or maybe we are not doing anything important wrong.

Wouter

Hear I can attest that in my communication with stealth owners it is often mentioned that J&S are always very quick in sending replacements parts to anyone in the world. I really do agree with Mark here that this can only be attributed to J&S love for the game of sailing. It doesn't appear that to them this is "just work", it is more to them and indeed I feel that is a great secret wapon. As such I fully agree with Mark's assesment :



Wouter

Well, naturally it is true that the F16 class no representation in NZL, THAT does make things more difficult. But it is to be expected for a class that started only 5 years ago and has a "no-budget" class association. It is first the big area's (USA, EU, AUS) and then slowly work in more and more representatives into area's of lesser importance like NZL. But give it time, it will happen. Afterall the A-cats don't have a Hobie like dealor network either and last I heared they were pretty popular in NZL.

Wouter

I think we need to find our own way. If we were to model another class, it would be the A-cats, imo.

Or, you have to find people who really like the boats they sail: 51 Snipes registered for the Western Hemisphere Championships in Coconut Grove.

If you are doing everything right Wouter why do leading members of this formula panic if someone mentions that some of the boats have production issues? Why is this discussion being had? Maybye stop always wanting to be right, look up out at the course, because it has changed, you are not starting it up now, ( and good on you for the energy you have put in and still do) you are trying to grow it past people who understand how good the boats are to a bigger field.
Organised, financially successful people with the money for these boats are used to minimising risk and dealerships represent a minimisation of risk. In the absence of dealerships other strategies must be used and an excellent "monkey mail" is one way around that.
To say people not should break parts and want new ones is..., well it's piffle and what about the revised faster foil that someone might want to upgrade to?!
Maybe I am wrong but you seem to have a real thing going about Hobie.. maybe get over that and study what we think they have done right, not what they have done wrong.

My "babble' is just shooting the breeze about what may or may not work. It's only turning over rocks looking for an answer, so if your hackles are raised, chill out and remember, you are preaching to the converted.

Something about Hobie. F16 must show they are faster than Hobie at every oportunity. Like cars.. "A win on Sunday will make a sale on Monday"... if the interested know how to buy one.

I noticed somewhere here that Hobie is going to ban other boats from thier races... Did anyone wonder why?

Something has just struck me..maybe fighting the 18s and big brother is the problem.. The bigger men on these boats will not go back to a smaller boat. Maybe F16 needs to show how much faster than the older style 16s it is....... Maybe that is where the people will jump from.
Why not decide how to take the people on H16s off them and onto F16. Why not target that huge demographic specifically?

Liberate these people from those agricultural field plows and onto the real deal! Save them Wouter, they are fellow sailors after all! Have invitation races for H16 sailors. They find out how slow their boat really is and then get a ride on a Taipan!... yes yes or blade etc.

Yes, A cats have a long history here so I suppose the torch keeps getting passed on. I think the Kiwi problem is that the development classes here are mono, have been around for years and the likes of Coutts, Dickson, Monk, Butterworth ect are taken by the "Yacht Club" ethic which is incredibly elitist about monos vs cats. These people are trained into what they are doing from 4/5 and 6 years of age. It is normal for a familly to run a 20,000 dollars set of Starlings and Ps and campaigin them vigorously. A youngster would not see a cat until early teens at best and then there would be an argument with Dad about it.
You only have to see that our Olympic Tornado sailors are both X board sailors..how trajic is that?
I believe the Olympics need a smaller class of cats as well. Like the Laser, a non trap one man 12/14 could get the young involved early and keep excellent sailors and profiles for longer. A medal like that would be something to aim for and grow cat sailors like bobsy! I cannot speak for you guys overseas, but I know that here cats are seen as no choice at all for a career in the sport. : (

No... they told us... the IHCA told the National Sailing Authorities (NAHCA) that Hobie meant Hobie and to maintain their sanction the local fleets could not run mixed events and call it hobie. Many fleets said.. OK ... out they go... Many other fleets so... stuff it, we don't care and we will do what we want.


Why? ... They said... that they saw no benefits from running mixed class regattas AND they worried that they would loose sailors and sales to other fleets. Its buisness and why should they do something that could hurt buisness.

I repeatedly challenge them on this premise... I think they have strong racing classes, with people who go racing a lot and if you fit the boat's profile... its a strong reason to race in a Hobie class. I bet you can't find any Hobie racer who says... I am stuck on my Hobie because it's the only racing game in town... Rather... I find people who say... I am stuck on my Hobie because I love it... and it does exactly what I want. (In fact... the hobie forum has a thread about... Why exactly are we excluding the F18's from our events? We ought to change this...)





Obviously, you are picking a boat that suits your size AND a racing /social scene that matches your interest as well.

The sheet loads on a F18 versus an F16 are a lot different and might be more managable by a women or young person. So... If the Hobie 16 racers were to move up... they should consider the F16 class. Secondly, if you would like some flexibility with respect to crew... consider the F16.

We both recognize The REALITY is... that the Hobie 16 racer has had COUNTLESS OPPORTUNITIES to move up... Many that I know switched to a bigger boat and then switched back to the H16. The racers are really clear what they want. A simple tough boat and most importantly, a competitive racing class that also gives them what they want in the social side of things. Its as close to a monohull as you get with respect to being family friendly. All of the other boats are technically much more sophisticated. Once again, the Hobie 16 sailor says.. I know what I want and I love my hobie 16.

Its absolutely silly to tell someone... NO you don't want that boat... you really want this boat.

So, I don't think I have ever heard Wouter declare that he wants to raid the Hobie 16 class of its sailors. Rather, he wants them to keep an open mind with respect to which boat might fit them best if they want to step up the performance ladder.

What I hear him say is... the Hobie strong arm tactics which tried to keep things the way they were (back in the day) have BACKFIRED! The hobie only class racing has declined in popularity and the formula boats, A cats and F18's have grown in the EU. He points to the Hobie leaders bending over backwards to support the pretense that the Tiger REALLY is a one design boat... When the actual high level game is the F18 game. I agree with him completely on this score.

Thanks for that. I did not say Wouter wanted to take the Hobie sailors just that he seems to have a thing about them. It was me saying that might be a good idea to aim at getting the H16 guys to change and you convincingly express it is not a good one. I am pleased to hear Hobie were so strait up about why they did not want the competition, refreshing really, not to hear corporate spin. : )

I have absolutly *no* problem with any single make regatta. IMHO it is entirely up to the organizing authority as to who entries are open to. Point blank - every association will do what (they think) is best for them first. For Hobiecat that means organizing regattas for their boats, not their competitors. To blame any manufacturer for looking out for itself is naive (sp?).

To get true "open" regattas, the model of racing needs to change to non-aligned club racing. For most clubs, what is best for them is participation (in all forms) which might include a selection of invited classes along with open fleets.

The aim at the end is to have week to week club based sailing with specific class associations organizing a small number of headline regattas such as state/regional and national titles.

What this means is the workload of organization is spread over a much larger pool of organizors leaving the class associations to concentrate their efforts on fewer top shelf regattas.

My $0.02 worth anyway.

Tiger Mike

I watched Dicson sail a Tornado at the Kiwi trials a few years ago. (Wifee and I were on Honeymoon) and he was not doing very well.....

I generally agree that people just don't get introduced to cats early enough, this is why I support what Brian Phipps has been doing with the kids in the UK. Top job IMO.

This is one of the reasons I designed and built the 430. Designed after the 'A' Class, uni rigged and sailed one up, it seemed the ideal smaller sport boat to get young 'gung ho', would be's onto cats and eventually become the small, more affordable cat addition to the Olympics.
While it is a trap boat, it's wider than an 'A' at 2.4m making it more stable and very suitable for younger sailors.

It was a nice idea but the reality is way beyond my ability to bring to fruition and given that most cat sailors are not terribly interest in promoting the catamaran per se, I doubt it will happen in mine or my kids lifetime if ever.

Bump. Stuck in the holiday doldrums with way too much time on my hands:

This is a list of characteristics that were considered important to build a successful fleet.

loyalty
inclusiveness
good sailing club
guru
affordability
publicity
activtiy

I think it is important to keep a focus on growth.

Comments?

Hello Phill,

You asked for views from other F16 sailors. I am not, but maybe you find some interesting pointers.

Why am I (actually we) thinking about a F16 (to buy after next season)?
- We are fairly light for a F18 (about 130 kg), which will make it necessary to buy a separate set of sails (jib and spi) if we want to compete in F18 class events. This would also potentially put us at a disadvantage, especially in lighter winds; the F16 seems like a better fit for our crew weight.
- Also because we want to sail more with our kids (age 14 and 12) 2-up; F16 with less sail area (and weight).
- More options (1 up).
- Much lighter boat than a F18, we expect it to be much easier to handle onshore (sailing with one of the kids)
- We want to sail a fast, exiting and challenging cat, which is competitive (rating wise) – F16 meets this?

What is holding us back (so far)?
- We are not familiar with the class (but maybe we will be at the Zandvoort event next year); is it at least as exiting as the latest generation F18?
- Is it as competitive as has been claimed (e.g. I could not find a F16 which finished in the top of the Open Class in this year’s Round Texel and Tiengemeten)? It would help if the class can point at some compelling examples (in my neighbourhood / the Netherlands)
- Small fleet, while the F18 offers us lots of opportunity to sail in larger fleets, even at club event level (Muiderzand) and compare notes with fellow class sailors.
- Also (?) it seems like that F16 fleet is split up into two sub-fleets (1 / 2-up)?
- Risks regarding all-in costs, while I expect a full Carbon specs not to be much cheaper than a F18 (Carbon rig Blade goes for Euro 16.5 thousand), how well will the resell value of a F16 hold up?

- and yes, we want another year to discover the potential of our Capricorn….

Our profile: bought myself a 1-year old Capricorn F18 last year as I wanted to get more into competitive sailing. My previous old bird, a Nacra 5.5, did not give me a lot of hope and one (I) simply can not compare the joy of sailing a Capricorn with a 5.5 (which I had sailed for 4 years). This year my wife/partner joined me in sailing our cat, and after a great week at the Aruba Heineken Regatta, we now want to try to spend more time on the water, have fun, and become better/faster sailors. Our plan is to sail more races (both club events and larger ones like Round Texel and Round Tiengemeten) and see whether we can climb a bit on the rankings.

PS: great to see a forum with so many postings.

I don't have a problem with a single regatta, either. I DO have a problem when all local/regional regattas that are used as a "manufacturer point system" are single make events. This squeezes out all the non-manufacturer boats from many events.

In some areas, it has put cat sailing to extinction (or almost) and others it has helpd solidify the brand of choice. Was the solidifcation by choice of the sailor to pick that manufacturer or the pure want to go sailing and that was the only game in town? The manufacturer gained in some areas and lost in others - is it worth the bad publicity/divisiveness?

I was thinking of a way to bring us together as a group, no easy task since we are spread all over the globe!

Since laughter is the universal language, how 'bout something funny, a running joke. I have it! A "Sailor Of Distinction" award, or SOD award! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Anyone can nominate anyone, for anything, at any time. Then we all discuss and vote on it. We could even have double, triple or Five SOD awards for the truly "deserving"!

I'll even award myself a single SOD for capsizing under spinnaker in NO WIND! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Come to think of it, we could award the F18 group 5 SODs for bashing us! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Ad,

- We want to sail a fast, exiting and challenging cat, which is competitive (rating wise) – F16 meets this?




What makes up "exiting" ? The F18 class is extremely large at this time while we are not, that makes the F18 exiting. But in the way of handling the F16's react faster to changes in trim and steering, that makes the F16 exiting.

Different people value different aspects of a class and therefor will call different things exiting.

I can assure you however that in the way of sailing the newest F18's are not more exiting then F16's. Afterall all the new gadgets on the F18 like wingmasts, proper rudder boards etc have been featured on the F16's since the begining. In those aspects the F18 is only catching up with us at this time. But "catching up" is definately the right describtion as the difference between the two makes is indeed getting smaller with Nacra going for a wingmast and Hobie getting new rudders etc.





None of us did Texel this year I think. Personally I don't go because I find it to be too expensive for what you get and I dislike the risks of some dummy parking his boat on top of your boat in the surf.

Rond Tiengemeente, well I was at a right good spot, racing Dirk Zwitser on his FX-one who ended up at 55th place in a 182 boat fleet. However I capized my boat a short while after rounding the halveway mark. I had been leading the F16 (and also leading the FX-one etc) for most of that first leg. The final F16 winner (Bard and Lonneke on Stealth F16) had just passed me and was right in front of me. I was sailing singlehanded.

As you say neither turned out to be a promofest for the F16's this year. But I want to say this about it. People expect us, a rather smaller fleet with average sailors at this time, to make convincing results against a huge fleet (over 71 boats if F18's) with all the "who is who" sailing in it. That is a pretty tall order. Without attracting a world class sailor to the F16 class I don't think we are going to achieve that.

This doesn't mean however that the boat is not up to it, that it isn't competitive. At this time it is definately the skill level of the crews, my skill level definately included. As sailors on Spitfire have done very well in the past and a very skilled Australian crew has done well at the Westland cup in 2004 as well.

Afterall look at what the guys need to do with the Nacra Infusion to get high place scoring ?

But after all is said and done the Texel rating puts us F16's at 100 (1-up) and 102 (2-up) and so it thinks we are fast enough compared to the F18's and such. In club races, = my skill level, I found that those ratings are justified. I would loved to have hung on to Christa and have proven that even in larger open regatta's this rating is justified but it was not to be ... ... Right now it is my own skill level that is insufficient to make a big mark in open class racing although I'm pretty proud that I was racing (leading) Dirk Zwitser for 70 minutes during this years Ronde Tiengemeente.




The same argument was (is) used by Hobie 16 sailors and yet 12 years ago the non-existant F18 class arrived in NL and grew and grew.

F16 is a new class and as such it needs to grow from "no-boats" to "many boat" over a span of quite a few years.





We race together on a single start and scoring and quite a few race in both modes. With F16 it is not 1-up OR 2-up but rathr 1-up AND 2-up. Actually I've found this personally to be more enjoyable then I expected it to be when we decided to go that way. It is really great not having to worry about the crew blues.





It does dependent on where you order your carbon F16. Stealth offers a carbon mast standard on all their boats and they are the most inexpensive of all F16's. For 14.000 Euro you'll own a very nice Stealth F16 with carbon mast and carbon boom and spi pole as well as carbon reinforcements in the hulls. The Blade F16 with carbon mast is indeed significantly more expensive. But both are still waaaay cheaper then a plain glass/alu F18. We are doing something right here I say.

Resale value of the F16's, I don't think second hand F16's took long to get sold on to a new owner. I know of two exceptions to this rule where 1 of those boats is waaaay overpriced for its age.

I think it is much harder trying to sell on nacra I-17's and those kind of boats. Of course selling F18's and Hobie 16's is really easy but I really do think that F16's do come in 3rd spot in that listing nevertheless. So the resale value and ease are pretty good for F16's. At this time there is still more demand for secondhand boats then there are on offer.

Personally I would seriously consider an alu/kevlar F16 at this time as that is the most price attractive option for now. 14.000 Euro will get anyone an excellent boat that way and it will be in the range where resale value will be very attractive to the market after two years time.


But the best advice that can be given is to test a F16 yourself and see for yourself whether it is worth taking the risk to buy a boat in a emerging class. Zandvoort seems like an excellent place for that as it appears all new makes will be there. AHPC new Viper F16, Aus build Blade F16, US build Blade F16, Stealth F16 and some golden oldies like the Taipan F16 and quite a few homebuilds. Hopefully we can persuade Bimare to come with their (full compliant) F16 as well.


Regards,

Wouter

The Star class allow world champs to use gold colored class insignia instead of the standard red color. I like ideas like that and what Pete just came up with. But I think 'awards' should be visible on the sailplan somehow. Great icebreaker and it adds something extra.

Just an idea..

Some classes give a chevron for a championship. Win 2 championships, you get 2 chevrons on your sail! I have seen 3 chevrons on the sail of a monohull I used race against. It seems like a good approach in lieu of flags or trophies. Then you can display your accomplishments every time you put up the mainsail!