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Re: Rick's New Taipan F16 Rudder Design [Re: Wouter] #48744
01/24/06 09:05 PM
01/24/06 09:05 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,658
Florida Suncoast, Dunedin Caus...
catman Offline
Pooh-Bah
catman  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,658
Florida Suncoast, Dunedin Caus...
I had a Dotan system on my M 6.0. If you sail in an area where you can put them down and not worry about ever having to sail with them in the kicked up position I'd rate them a 4 on a scale to 10.

Some of the problems. When kicked and trying to steer they flex a lot. The rudder blades float so when they kick they raise so high as to make it impossible to steer. You don't want to be around me when that happens. ( I understand why they float) If you snug up the pivot screw you can stop this from happening but then they become difficult to operate. The screws that are part of the pivot mechanism bent. I also broke a rake adjusting screw when hitting the bottom. A lot of small parts.

my 0.02


Have Fun
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Re: Rick's New Taipan F16 Rudder Design [Re: catman] #48745
01/29/06 04:41 PM
01/29/06 04:41 PM
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 17
Dotan Offline
stranger
Dotan  Offline
stranger

Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 17
Wouter:

Could you please tell who made a test on G-cat F16? Where is it possible to get more information about it?
Maybe you can recall 18HT sailors as well, it would be very interesting to get feedback directly from them.
Thank you!




catman:

Thank you for sharing the experience.
We assume that when person launches a cat, he mainly controls a boat with the sails(mainsail & jib). Rudders are used as a "steering helper" for sails. Finally, when the water is deep enough - sailor lowers the blades.

Rudder blade floats because it is very light. We consider the low weight as an advantage however, as many sailors are very much concerned about the weight of every boat part. Generally, we can put the lead inside in the bottom blade area. So rudders will be more suitable for leasure sailing.

Probably screws bent sometime after you tried to make some alterations in the setup(snug up the pivot point etc..) So after these alterations there were some freedom introduced between the rudder box and the blade. In this case, there is a very big chance that the screws will bend... Thus, it is strongly recommended not to make changes in the factory setup without asking for advise from the Dotan.
What rudders do you use now?
What will happen to them if you hit the bottom(like it was with Dotan rudder)?


Dotan kick up rudder systems for dinghy and catamarans http://www.dotan.com
Re: Rick's New Taipan F16 Rudder Design [Re: Dotan] #48746
01/29/06 09:08 PM
01/29/06 09:08 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Quote

Could you please tell who made a test on G-cat F16? Where is it possible to get more information about it?


Brett Moss and Hans Geissler

I think you can contact Hans via his website :

http://www.g-catmultihulls.com/

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 01/29/06 09:22 PM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Rick's New Taipan F16 Rudder Design [Re: Wouter] #48747
02/01/06 09:04 AM
02/01/06 09:04 AM
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 17
Dotan Offline
stranger
Dotan  Offline
stranger

Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 17
Wouter:
This is an interesting thing to know...
Last time I heard about Hans Geissler he was going to race equipped with Dotan rudders.

Second thing is that Dotan rudder boxes have been used on G-Cat 21' during some time. So far there haven't been any problems reported about weak rudder boxes from the owner. Something makes me believe that rudder loads on G-cat 21 are higher than on G-cat 16.

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

I shall definitely try to get an update from them.


Dotan kick up rudder systems for dinghy and catamarans http://www.dotan.com
Re: Rick's New Taipan F16 Rudder Design [Re: Dotan] #48748
02/01/06 04:14 PM
02/01/06 04:14 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe

Friend,

Quote

Last time I heard about Hans Geissler he was going to race equipped with Dotan rudders.


Yes, they raced them on the new G-cat F16 and it was reported that they broke and proved to be not stiff enough. Now we can talk around these rudders for ever but the that doesn't change what happened.

I don't care much about what works on the G-cat 21. I think most of us are only interested in what works on F16's.

Now I'm not saying that the rudders are at fault here. I'm just relaying what reached my ears. Don't shoot the messenger, take this offline with Hans and Brett.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Rick's New Taipan F16 Rudder Design [Re: Dotan] #48749
02/01/06 04:30 PM
02/01/06 04:30 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Mary Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mary  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Dotan,
In the picture you included in your post, which appears to be the aft end of a G-cat, the rudder looks to be tilted off center (gudgeons not aligned properly?). And, in addition to that, the the rudder blade itself appears to be twisted a bit from top to bottom.

Last edited by Mary; 02/01/06 04:33 PM.
Re: Rick's New Taipan F16 Rudder Design [Re: Mary] #48750
02/04/06 07:57 AM
02/04/06 07:57 AM
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 17
Dotan Offline
stranger
Dotan  Offline
stranger

Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 17
Wouter:
There are 1000 and 1 reasons why the rudders break - negligence, skipper errors, improper "center of the lateral plane", defects in workmanship, weakness of the materials etc. If the problem is on our side, we would like to address this problem and solve it. Consequently.. in order to find out where the problem is, we have to get feedback from every sailor with such experience and analyze all the facts.



Mary:
You are right, as you can see in the photo, the rudder is tilted off-centre. However, there is not a problem with this and the gudgeons are aligned properly. This setup(when gudgeons are not centered) gives a small, positive effect when taking into consideration sailing at heel.
In this case it is very important to preserve rudder parallelism.

Without any doubt, the rudder blade is not twisted. It looks like an optical distortion or something like this.


Dotan kick up rudder systems for dinghy and catamarans http://www.dotan.com
Re: Rick's New Taipan F16 Rudder Design [Re: Dotan] #48751
02/04/06 09:27 AM
02/04/06 09:27 AM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,658
Florida Suncoast, Dunedin Caus...
catman Offline
Pooh-Bah
catman  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,658
Florida Suncoast, Dunedin Caus...
uh-oh Hans is busted.


Have Fun
Re: Rick's New Taipan F16 Rudder Design [Re: Dotan] #48752
02/04/06 09:59 AM
02/04/06 09:59 AM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Mary Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mary  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Quote
the rudder is tilted off-centre. However, there is not a problem with this and the gudgeons are aligned properly. This setup(when gudgeons are not centered) gives a small, positive effect when taking into consideration sailing at heel.
In this case it is very important to preserve rudder parallelism.


Dotan,
Can you explain what you mean by "rudder parallelism"?

Re: Rick's New Taipan F16 Rudder Design [Re: Mary] #48753
02/05/06 03:10 PM
02/05/06 03:10 PM
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 17
Dotan Offline
stranger
Dotan  Offline
stranger

Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 17
Possibly rudder parallelism is not a good word.
When you cross the rudder blades in horizontal plane, rudder blade section chords(red lines on the photo) should be parallel between themselves.
[Linked Image]


Dotan kick up rudder systems for dinghy and catamarans http://www.dotan.com
Re: Rick's New Taipan F16 Rudder Design [Re: Dotan] #48754
01/15/07 08:26 PM
01/15/07 08:26 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1
S
SloopJohnB Offline
stranger
SloopJohnB  Offline
stranger
S

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1
Quote
Possibly rudder parallelism is not a good word.
When you cross the rudder blades in horizontal plane, rudder blade section chords(red lines on the photo) should be parallel between themselves.
[Linked Image]



I beleive that the ABA AMRO boats found that 2 degrees toe in on their rudders gave the best results, would this be the small for cats.

Re: Knock it off ! [Re: Wouter] #48755
01/17/07 10:19 AM
01/17/07 10:19 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 390
samevans Offline
enthusiast
samevans  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 390
Quote


Knock it off guys !

The deal was very clear. We will not give a certain person cause to post on this forum and this person will not post on the forum ever again.

Observe the conditions of the truce, please.

Anything and Everything can be discussed on this forum with the exception of S.E. or any statements that were made regarding this person in the past.

Wouter



Wouter,

You arrogant pompous, lying scumbag.

I don't have a "deal" with anyone, certainly not YOU.
There is no "truce", or agreement or understanding.
I chose not to post because I was bored.
I will post on any forum I want to.
I will post about anything I want to.

Who do you think you are?
As we repeatly told you when Rick White first created this forum, YOU ARE NOT IS CHARGE.
This is not YOUR forum.
The people who choose to post here ARE NOT UNDER YOUR CONTROL.

Perhaps it is time I resumed posting.
The newbies should know the true history of you and the f16 "class".
Like how you stole a set of Taipan 4.9 plans, had a pair of hulls made with a few minor above the waterline changes and called it "YOUR" design.
You called it a tiafoon and never did pay the license fee to the real designer.


BRING IT ON !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Re: Knock it off ! [Re: samevans] #48756
01/17/07 01:07 PM
01/17/07 01:07 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 443
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
bobcat Offline
addict
bobcat  Offline
addict

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 443
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Damn, its alive. And just because of something Zuhl posted. He hasn't posted here since Feb 13th, 2006. (Zuhl that is).



F16 Blade 716
Re: Knock it off ! [Re: bobcat] #48757
01/17/07 03:59 PM
01/17/07 03:59 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,718
St Petersburg FL
Robi Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Robi  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,718
St Petersburg FL
abuahuauhauhahuabuuauahahahahahah look whos back! LMAO! some one sponsor the popcorn! LOL

Re: Knock it off ! [Re: Robi] #48758
01/17/07 06:18 PM
01/17/07 06:18 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 908
Dublin, Ireland
Dermot Offline
old hand
Dermot  Offline
old hand

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 908
Dublin, Ireland
Quote
abuahuauhauhahuabuuauahahahahahah look whos back! LMAO! some one sponsor the popcorn! LOL

Maybe someone has found a way to post, using an existing forum members ID <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Dermot
Catapult 265
www.catamaran.ie
Re: Knock it off ! [Re: samevans] #48759
01/17/07 10:51 PM
01/17/07 10:51 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Mary Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mary  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Sam,
At Wouter's behest, I contacted AHPC about your charges, and Greg Goodall replied to me as follows:

Quote
I can confirm that Wouter did buy the plans #243 for a Taipan 4.9 catamaran. Wouter’s statement regarding this is 100% accurate.

The boat that Wouter built was a variation of the Taipan 4.9 and when completed it did not fit within the Taipan 4.9 class rules. It was never intended to be a class legal Taipan 4.9 as the intention was to be a F16 catamaran. For this reason the boat was called a Typhoon.

I hope this sets the record straight.

Re: Knock it off ! [Re: bobcat] #48760
01/17/07 10:59 PM
01/17/07 10:59 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 342
Lake Murray, SC,USA
Cary Palmer Offline
enthusiast
Cary Palmer  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 342
Lake Murray, SC,USA
OK I can take neither blame nor credit for this.
As to posting, I've been working on my monohull all year, Computer fritzy half the time.
Looking forward to seeing you guys at Spring Fever's 10th Anniversary this spring.
CARY
C&C 24 "Caliente"
SEACATS

Quote
Damn, its alive. And just because of something Zuhl posted. He hasn't posted here since Feb 13th, 2006. (Zuhl that is).

Re: Knock it off ! [Re: Mary] #48761
01/17/07 11:06 PM
01/17/07 11:06 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,718
St Petersburg FL
Robi Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Robi  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,718
St Petersburg FL
Quote
Sam,
At Wouter's behest, I contacted AHPC about your charges, and Greg Goodall replied to me as follows:

Quote
I can confirm that Wouter did buy the plans #243 for a Taipan 4.9 catamaran. Wouter’s statement regarding this is 100% accurate.

The boat that Wouter built was a variation of the Taipan 4.9 and when completed it did not fit within the Taipan 4.9 class rules. It was never intended to be a class legal Taipan 4.9 as the intention was to be a F16 catamaran. For this reason the boat was called a Typhoon.

I hope this sets the record straight.
OOOOOOOOOOOH!! so who is the liar now? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> I am sure Sam wont reply he has selective reading. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Ill be waiting for the nasty private message Sam. You know how I do it, I am your crying shoulder <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />




ps: I love this forum. Nothing like reading good ol fashion Hobie bashing, Nacra greatness, fad boats and how the polynesians found land by reading wave intervals <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Re: Knock it off ! [Re: Cary Palmer] #48762
01/17/07 11:10 PM
01/17/07 11:10 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 443
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
bobcat Offline
addict
bobcat  Offline
addict

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 443
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
So Cary, long time no type.

Are you denying trying to stir up a little trouble? It just took a little longer than you figured.



F16 Blade 716
Re: Knock it off ! [Re: Robi] #48763
01/18/07 06:23 AM
01/18/07 06:23 AM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,348
F
fin. Offline
Carpal Tunnel
fin.  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
F

Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,348
Quote
Quote
Sam,
At Wouter's behest, I contacted AHPC about your charges, and Greg Goodall replied to me as follows:

Quote
I can confirm that Wouter did buy the plans #243 for a Taipan 4.9 catamaran. Wouter’s statement regarding this is 100% accurate.

The boat that Wouter built was a variation of the Taipan 4.9 and when completed it did not fit within the Taipan 4.9 class rules. It was never intended to be a class legal Taipan 4.9 as the intention was to be a F16 catamaran. For this reason the boat was called a Typhoon.

I hope this sets the record straight.
OOOOOOOOOOOH!! so who is the liar now? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> I am sure Sam wont reply he has selective reading. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Ill be waiting for the nasty private message Sam. You know how I do it, I am your crying shoulder <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />




ps: I love this forum. Nothing like reading good ol fashion Hobie bashing, Nacra greatness, fad boats and how the polynesians found land by reading wave intervals <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

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