**** and not worth the paper it's written on... but maybe not"?

Do you have an expectation that you are entitled to someone’s insurance information from the regatta organizer when you demand they turn it over since Sailor X won't give you their information.


Is the NOR Statement... Must show PROOF of insurance as far as a regatta organizing committee should go with this issue?

If sailor X shows you a piece of paper that simply says... XXXX certifies “my name here” has insurance. Is that good enough? ...

What standard should the regatta organizer use when accepting your entry and the proof of insurance? Do you now spell it out in the NOR?

If there is a conflict between Sailor A and B.... Is the Regatta organizer supposed to get in the middle of it since they have records of the insurance information ...

If you turnover insurance information .... Against one of the parties involved wishes... Can you be held liable in a civil court?

Is the regatta organizer supposed to turn over the insurance info to both A and B when either A or B starts complaining?

Are they supposed to follow the protest hearing's final verdict and turn over info to the person found at fault?

Is the regatta organizing committee supposed to have a plan of what do do when the [censored] hits the fan?

If the policy of the regatta is ... follow the protest committee... does this mean for the rule which explicitly states "Protest committees do not determine liability" is for all intent... voided?

Did you think about these issues when you decided to collect or ask for proof of insurance when you wrote neither the NOR for this years racing?

Are you now thinking.... "OH fer chris sake!.... why did I volunteer to run the annual event?... Who asked for these headaches? Is Schneider an [censored] or what???

Just askin!!!!


As you might have guessed... I feel that the good ol fashion method... “your signature certifies that you have liability insurance” is as far as the Regatta organizing committee should go. After that... we have a pretty elaborate legal system to handle a dispute between A and B ... well short of a gun fight at noon!

Mark

Uhhhh, YES? I mean NO! Well, it could be. Maybe its 3? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Have them sign and stay out!

Clayton

If the race committee has the policy info it will prevent a skipper from denying another skipper the info. I had an impact with a H16 on port at the start 2 years ago at Spring Fever. He knew he was in the wrong but refused to give me is insurance info, stated I could sue him if I wished. I had $1,000 damage to the bow of my boat. I contacted the race committee and got no help, spoke to the offending skipper many times to no avail and in the end payed out of my pocket for the repairs. Port boat is always going to be found at fault unless rammed on purpose, no one would do that. In this case I hailed him repeatedly, he had fouled the 18 in front of me that didn't protest him and powered up right in my path in spite of being hailed. I had boats above and below me. Had he sat still or tacked off I would have cleared him no problem. He sailed no 360, he didn't retire from the race, and went on to win the event. I think the more info the committee has the better protected the sailors are from this type of incident. My 2 cents.

not a bad idea, collecting info. I'm quite sure there are a good portion of the boys down here who don't carry insurance, with no-one to say boo about it.

I have never been clear on why the race organizer should even REQUIRE people to sign something saying they have liability insurance. What does it have to do with the race organizer or race committee? It's an individual responsibility.

It would be nice to REMIND people that they should have such insurance, but if somebody hits another boat and damages it or kills somebody in a collision, isn't that solely the responsibility of the person who is guilty, if they were in the wrong?

Why does the race organizer/committee have to get involved and also be somehow responsible if they did not check every sailor and/or boat owner's certificate of insurance before allowing them to race?

I don't get the whole thing. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> It is a can of worms.

If anything, you could just add an additional disclaimer clause that says that they take sole responsibility for any damage to other boats or injury to other sailors, regardless of whether or not they have insurance, if they are found to be in the wrong, whether by a sailing jury or in a civil or criminal court.

So WindyHill F20

As I understand it. You did not protest him.

You did not have a protest hearing.

You did not ask US Sailing to start the process for disciplinary action since he lied about insurance and refused to take responsiblity for his actions.

You did not inform the next regattas that X lied about insurance and a US Sailing process had been started so he should not be allowed to compete.

Realize.... If US Sailing throws a sailor out of the game... any yacht club that allows the person to compete can also be tossed.

This is the system we have for enforcing a minimal set of behaviors.

If I am organizing the regatta... I DO NOT WANT TO BE INVOLVED IN YOUR PERSONAL CRISIS. I don't see the regatta chair's job as one of enforcing proper behavior of the racers...

This sport is self policing... When a behavior of cheating is OK unless you get caught and then we just spin it as "pushing the rules" and so excuse the bad behavior.... we are all screwed!

Mary, are you thinking a no fault insurance application? Several states have gone to this type of coverage. Basically, no one is at fault and each party takes care of their damages. This is only used in auto coverage. The premiums are higher for coverage but you don't have to worry about uninsured/under insured.

No. I just think the race committee, organizer, club, whatever, should not be involved at any level, in terms of whether a sailor does or does not have insurance to protect himself in terms of liability. If you get into an accident with your boat, it's YOUR problem. PERIOD.

I agree with Mary on this..

My gripe is with Regatta organizers who take this on..

I don't have a problem waving a peice of paper that I write out that says... yes... i promise I have liability insurance... The club has no basis for rejecting my application.

The request for proof of insurance is likley part of what their insurance company requests... its just more hurdles to somebody going after their money.. It has no teeth. So who cares..

Now if the Insurance company wanted the club to use Notarized proof of insurance... That would be a real standard... and although a PIA... Even that would be OK..
Unneccesary... but OK...

I have a real problem with a club which wants to stick their nose in my personal crisis by collecting this info. As Mary says... Its MY PROBLEM.... I will deal with it... Thank you very much...

If you go to an area and race where 30% of the racers on the water do not have insurance, is it worth doing something about it to try and decrease that percentage? What if it were 75%?

Yes You should do something.

If the NOR says... MUST HAVE LIABILITY Coverage.

I would ask each person at registration... Do you have liabiltiy insurance? Yes or NO!

Make them LIE TO YOU....

Make it CLEAR TO THEM ... that this matters to the people running the regatta and the people in the regatta. Its not just a little white lie. So... Choose...

Lie to your friends and competitors or Do the right thing...


Now... if liability insurance coverage does not matter to you and your buddies and it does not matter to the Regatta organizers... ... Take it out of the NOR.... You don't have to insist on Liability.. . This is Mary's point of view. Hey.. Its not the regattas problem if you have an accident.

I'm confused...you're saying that the regatta organizers should urge people to have insurance because people should have insurance. However, to require proof of it is crossing the line?

I don't even know what side of the fence I'm on regarding this topic, just trying to understand what you are saying.

In the big picture, regatta organizers are providing a service to customers (the sailors). Should this service include some assurances that everyone competing has a reasonable amount of coverage should something go wrong?

Right! After sailing for umpteen zillion years with nobody ever mentioning insurance when you went to a regatta, I don't understand why it is suddenly such a big deal. Did something happen that caused this to all get started?

Mark,
I did protest him, there was a hearing, he was found to be at fault. I did not contact US Sailing. I was forced to quit racing to repair the boat. Have raced since. The offending skipper does not race regularly in my area so no need to warn others. Race commitee basically told me to shut up and get my boat repaired. They definately condoned the offending skippers abuse of this system, almost supported his decision to let me sue him. Had I turned this in to my insurance company they would have gone after him. Instead I sucked it up and payed for the repairs. I consider it a lesson learned.

I think that the reason that people are asking for it is to protect the organizers or race committee more than anything.

Organizers don't need to be "protected" if they are not involved in the first place by asking for proof of insurance.

I want to know who the paranoid person is who started this whole thing about insurance.

WindyHillF20..
I admire your restraint, I would flame the dude until there was no tomorrow.

what do you mean who started this thing about insurance? In that it is not worth discussing? I think proof of insurance will become required if people start acting like idiots.

I think the thing is this- we live in a society where everyone sues. Every sailor needs insurance so if there is a mistake and something bad- or VERY bad- happens then your entire wealth isn't put at risk. Imagine me making a mistake and causing someone to break an arm. They are a trial lawyer and decide to sue me because I have no insurance (I do though). Pain/suffering/etc. What if they don't have medical insurance and then require surgery to fix the arm? 20k and up. What if they are seriously injured and require long term care (now I am sure most policies wouldn't cover much of this anyway)?
The guy that sails in a regatta and doesn't have insurance and tries to walk away from their responsibility financially is the lowest POS I can imagine and deserves to be banned from the water EVERYWHERE, whether it be recreation or racing. Let them rot in hell...
If someone has enough financial liquidity to absorb the cost of damaging someone's boat or body then so be it but they still need to be responsible.

I'm not sure I agree with you, Mary. It is incumbent upon the organizers to do their best to provide a safe event for the participants, and this would be part of their diligence.

I'd be willing to bet there are some enterprising attorneys who will claim the organizers were negligent in allowing uninsured boaters out on the course

I would not like to be hit by someone without insurance, especially if someone ended up hurt.

Should the PRO require certificates of insurance for all participants? In an anal retentive world, yes.

In reality, if the NOR requires participants carry $100,000 in liability coverage, and the sailors sign the registration attesting to that fact, perhaps that is better than nothing.

With as much litigation as there is in the US, it would seem like a no-brainer. Besides, liability only policies (they don't cover theft or damage to your boat, but cover your liability towards injury or damage to someone else's boat) are CHEAP (like $100 per year?)

Gonna have to disagree here, too. Don't tell me that someone won't try to blame this on the organizers, because the accident wouldn't have occurred had there been no regatta.

I agree that what the sailors do on the course should be ultimately between them, but I don't think they'd leave it at that and not drag the organizers into the fray.....