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#101385 - 06/27/07 05:25 AM Re: Formula 14 development [Re: Berny]  
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NickS Offline
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Rockingham, Western Australia
If it ever actually gets to the take it to the tip stage let me know as it would be a real shame to see the molds wasted like that. Unfortunately you would still get the job of finding out how much it would be to freight them to WA as I'm sure they'd need to know weight, size etc. Having said that I have only ever built a ply catamaran from plans...does the 430 have any? Cheers Nick

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#101386 - 06/27/07 11:54 PM Re: Formula 14 development [Re: NickS]  
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Berny Offline
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Berny  Offline
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Quote
If it ever actually gets to the take it to the tip stage let me know as it would be a real shame to see the molds wasted like that. Unfortunately you would still get the job of finding out how much it would be to freight them to WA as I'm sure they'd need to know weight, size etc. Having said that I have only ever built a ply catamaran from plans...does the 430 have any? Cheers Nick


Na, no plans sorry and the weight of the moulds is extreme.

Mate I apreciate your interest and concern but really the thing is dead.
Thanks all the same,

Bern.

#101387 - 09/05/07 05:05 PM Re: Formula 14 development [Re: Berny]  
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rictorn Offline
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berny it sounds like you deserve a pat on the back, by the looks of it great concept, great boat, fantastric effort you have put in to getting all togerther not your fault people are so crapathetic,


i have a few quistions though, why is the windrush going strong and yours (which i think a much better boat) isn't ?

how much faster (on a handicap system) is it than the windrush and how much slower than a blade or a TheMightyHobie18?

i still think there is a market just needs somone with serious money to through at the marketing, to get a class going then everyone would be as impressed with these little boats as i am, and i have not even seen one like the mini (car) in the 60's because all the cool models, royals, musicians, film stars had one

#101388 - 09/24/07 01:55 AM Interesting proposal [Re: rictorn]  
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Wouter Offline
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Quote

i still think there is a market just needs somone with serious money to through at the marketing, to get a class going



For of all why would anybody sink a large sum of money in a sailing catamaran class ? What would be the benefit to that person. He (or she) will be very unlikely to recover it and it won't give him much respect amonh his peers. But maybe even more importantly you will set your class up to failure, because what happens when such a sugar daddy gets bored and moves on. With the whole class depending on the efforts and money of one person, it will be very vunerable. I'm thinking US 18HT class and the "very rich guy with a promo plan" there. It went like crazy in 2002 and 2003 and then it ... collapsed within 6 months.

Wouldn't a more interesting question be on how to get the F14 class grow without hoping some miracle guy will come along and solve all the issues ?

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
#101389 - 09/24/07 06:48 PM Re: Interesting proposal [Re: Wouter]  
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Darryl_Barrett Offline
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Valid points Wouter, But there is the one big exception IE NACRA was started in just such a way - by a "suger daddy" - and look at it now. Still those were VERY different times as far as sailing in general is concerned and for off the beach catamarans in particular.

#101390 - 10/20/07 09:59 PM Re: Formula 14 development [Re: rictorn]  
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Berny Offline
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Quote

how much faster (on a handicap system) is it than the windrush and how much slower than a blade or a TheMightyHobie18?

Sorry, I haven'y been watching this or any other forum lately so I've missed these last posts.
Thanks for the 'pat on the back' ric, it is appreciated.

The 430, sailed sloop is about 10 minutes in a 100 faster than a foam super sloop Windy and about 15 minutes F14 rigged with me [a 66 y/old] at the helm weighing 85kgs. Probably a bit faster with an athletic gun sailer pulling the strings.

Wouter, there's only one thing stopping the advancement of F14 and thats the complete apathy, even resentment of the class by people like yourself who, though having considerable world wide influence, have insufficient vision for the future of otb catamaran racing to get behind a class which has the potential to bring new YOUNG blood into the sport. It's as simple as that!
Your question; "Why would anyone get behind the concept" speeks volumes.

Last edited by Berny; 10/20/07 10:03 PM.
#101391 - 10/21/07 02:40 AM Re: Formula 14 development [Re: Berny]  
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Wouter Offline
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Quote

Wouter, there's only one thing stopping the advancement of F14 and thats the complete apathy, even resentment of the class by people like yourself who, though having considerable world wide influence, have insufficient vision for the future ...



Yeah ! That is it !

When you can't reach critical mass on your own (efforts) then there surely must be some outsider actively working against you.

What a BS. If you can't make it on your own then that is because you can't make it. Maybe some other people can but then the current F14 enthousiasts need to find these.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
#101392 - 10/21/07 07:11 PM Re: Formula 14 development [Re: Wouter]  
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Berny Offline
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Who on earth has ever reached 'critical mass' on their own??

And nobody said that you are working against F14, just that you totally ignor/disregerd it and are apathetic [get a dictionary] toward it. Many seem to resent the idea that a new class might upset the 'status quo' so they do nothing. Reality is cat racing is in the decline. It's even being considered as redundant as an olympic event. Some of that is because there's no new blood comming in at the bottom. Cat racing at present, is mostly an old blokes sport. Kids are seldom accomodated in the main, which is really too bad. Something needs to be done if it is to grow and another 16 footer with spinnaker isn't the answer. You're not going to see a bunch of 14 year olds racing an F16, F18, Tornado, A class,......

Tell me this wouter, who in the world has made any effort toward encouraging young sailors to take up cat racing since Hobie Alter?? Where's your plan for the future of the sport in this regard???

Quote
What would be the benefit to that person. He (or she) will be very unlikely to recover it and it won't give him much respect amonh his peers.


Not everyone does things purely for monitory gain Wouter. Lots of people see a bigger picture. Some even reason that a new class, which might introduce young sailors to the sport, may have lots of beneficial side effects for the sport, making more money among them. A new hight tech 14ftr might just encourage young ppl to take up cat racing. What if every cat club in the world owned a decent 14ftr and made it available to their new recruits, wouldn't that be terrible.

No respect among peers? What the heck is that??

Berny

Last edited by Berny; 10/22/07 12:15 AM.
#101393 - 10/21/07 10:15 PM Re: Formula 14 development [Re: Berny]  
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JeffS Offline
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Kingston SE South Australia
Quote

Lots of people see a bigger picture. Some even reason that a new class, which might introduce young sailors to the sport, may have lots of beneficial side effects for the sport, making more money among them. A new hight tech 14ftr might just encourage young ppl to take up cat racing. What if every cat club in the world owned a decent 14ftr and made it available to their new recruits, wouldn't that be terrible. No respect among peers? What the heck is that??

Berny


There was quite a discussion about youth sailing earlier in the year revolving around F12 to some extent, in that time I found it wasn't feasable to have extra classes in our club. I have bought 2 x 420's for the kids to sail which has encouraged 3 other 420's to be purchased and will sail shortly. So now due to a small start we have a 5 kids boat fleet in a club where we only have 7 adult boats racing. Don't loose heart in the 14 berny because the kids generally find the speed of the 420 boring and want their own A. Our aim as a club is to tip them into Cats as soon as they are big enough the biggest problem really is the cost so keep those molds somewhere safe because our club now has 17 kids under 15 wanting a fast boat like the adults. Before sending them to the tip I would take them and store them for others and hopefully build a number for our club. I know you are going to hate this question but as a cheap entry into cats for a 420 owner, would the hulls perform reasonably with the mast and sails off the 420? until the kid was big enough and the adult financial enough to go to the full F14 rigging. regards Jeff


Jeff Southall
Nacra 5.8 1667 Ram Raider
Nacra 18 Square
Taipan 5.7 134
Mosquito 404
Arrow 1576
#101394 - 10/22/07 12:06 AM Re: Formula 14 development [Re: JeffS]  
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Berny Offline
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That's good news Jeff. Glad to see someone is looking to the future here in Oz anyway. Good stuff.
The club I race at is essentially a mono club and cats are tolerated only just. We have a fleet of about 14 cats sailing most Saturdays.
I did buy a small training cat which was stored in the club but only a couple of young blokes used it and then while I was away for a coupla seasons it disappeared.

I guess anything is possible, though I have to say that the 430 at 2.4m beam is a very stable platform and very well behaved. A small headsail would probably give a crew something to do other than help to hold the boat down if it was sailed two up. Spinnaker is optional.
I'm selling our house soon so the moulds will probably end up going to the tip when that happens.
Darryl is closer to you guys and I'm sure he'd be happy to help you get something going.

Good luck with it,

Bern

#101395 - 10/22/07 02:45 AM Re: Formula 14 development [Re: Berny]  
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JeffS Offline
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Don't dump them Berny I will take them, I will try and build 4 or 5 for the club but I would build them with another layer of divinacell on the keel and under the deck deck for abuse by the kids and I would try and get kids to build them so they would be really usefull for getting kids into the ownership concept of boats and if there ever turned out to be a commercial use for them in the future you could have them back so your not wasting all that effort. When you are really serious about getting rid of them let me know and I will come and get them regards Jeff


Jeff Southall
Nacra 5.8 1667 Ram Raider
Nacra 18 Square
Taipan 5.7 134
Mosquito 404
Arrow 1576
#101396 - 10/22/07 02:47 AM Re: Formula 14 development [Re: Berny]  
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Wouter Offline
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Berny,

Whatever.

Just don't shove the blame for what ever happens or doesn't happy to the F14 in my shoes.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
#101397 - 10/23/07 11:31 AM Re: Formula 14 development [Re: Berny]  
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MarkMT Offline
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MarkMT  Offline
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Lake Zurich, IL
Quote
Tell me this wouter, who in the world has made any effort toward encouraging young sailors to take up cat racing since Hobie Alter?? Where's your plan for the future of the sport in this regard???


I guess your earlier remark that you hadn't been following any of the forums accounts for this comment. Wouter's thinking on the development of youth sailing is well documented.

(Actually Wouter's thinking on most things is well documented! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> )

#101398 - 10/24/07 06:48 AM Re: Formula 14 development [Re: MarkMT]  
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Berny Offline
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Quote
Wouter's thinking...............


'Thinking' doesn't get it done and besides, he comes accross here with negative crap and we have enough of that happening without him laying in.

I'll keep you posted Jeff.

#101399 - 10/24/07 08:25 AM Re: Formula 14 development [Re: Berny]  
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Seeker Offline
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Hey Berny, a word of encouragement…

"If I had one person, just one, really interested in knowing more about the boat [there is one another boat being built as I speak], more than just a casual passing interest, I'd be enthused, but after SEVEN YEARS of racing and seldom being beat by any other 14, and that's without the kite, I'd be buoyed but realistically I've run out of time. I'm 66yrs old and it's time to other things."

Something to consider...you have put 7 years of your life into this concept, do you really want to walk away form it just when the rest of the catamaran world is starting to come around to the Formula format of cat racing? A format that might allow your design to thrive.
You say you are 66 years old and it's time for other things...are the “other things” you have in mind going to be as personally fulfilling as your cat design?
You have obviously laid the groundwork at a high price...do you really want to turn and walk away from all that?

Maybe the "other things" you speak of could be as simple as taking a different perspective on what you have already accomplished. Instead of seeking approval from others, the secret is enjoying the process of conceiving and actually turning into reality, the dream of a better 14’ catamaran. You write as a man beaten and disillusioned. From the description of your boats performance it has been an unqualified success. You have let the lack of acceptance by the masses strip you of the joy you should have experienced in making a personal dream a reality. Celebrate the unique creative spark that God put in you and don’t let your joy hinge upon the approval of others. The masses lack any vision regarding their own lives, what makes you think they will see and understand the vision that is uniquely yours?

It appears as if there may be a chance of breathing new life into your dream. Instead of abandoning your project, perhaps it is just time for the next chapter. A combination of your groundwork, experience and vision along with Jeff’s energy and
ability to get a group of kids interested in sailing at his cub might be just the catalyst. Stay closely involved with your boats evolution, it is your child ( so to speak), nurture it, don’t throw away the countless hours dreaming, conceiving, along with the blood sweat and tears that culminated into your exceptional boat.… a more fulfilling realization of your dream may be just around the next bend…

Best Regards,
Bob

#101400 - 10/24/07 07:06 PM Re: Formula 14 development [Re: Berny]  
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MarkMT Offline
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I guess you haven't looked at the discussions I was alluding to. It's unfortunate that you chose to interpret Wouter's original critique as a sign of resentment and apathy. With a little more insight you might have recognized that he was actually offering some sage and constructive advice and I guess could have been a source of much more.

Best of luck with your project if you choose to pursue it.

#101401 - 10/25/07 12:42 AM Re: Formula 14 development [Re: Seeker]  
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Thanks Seeker, you are kind.
Mate, it's the disapointment that the boat may never become a new class, not the boat it's self that I'm unhappy about. I still race it every Saturday arvo [afternoon] at a local club and, except that there's not a lot of competition there, I win by 10mins plus most days, I really enjoy the boat. I have actually gotten a lot out of designing, building and racing it and although it's difficult to justify the cost, it has been a great journey and I'm not sorry I did it. At least I'm not going to die wondering.
I also have a very supportive and understanding wife which helps.

Yes I think it's time to fully let go and give Jeff a chance to do something useful with it.
Jeff, PM me and we'll work on getting the moulds to you.

Mark, I've read a lot of Wouters stuff over the years and mostly, I have great admiration and respect for his abilities, but try as I might I don't see anything possitive in his response here, in fact quite the reverse. And it doesn't help much, that on this issue, I tend to have glass toes. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Berny

#101402 - 10/25/07 08:02 PM Re: Formula 14 development [Re: Berny]  
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Like Berny, I to am a little disappointed by the “penetration” that the F14 has made on the market place, as far as numbers sailing go. That is not to say that there hasn’t been great interest in the concept and in the F14’s that are sailing, (I have personally posted out over two thousand DVD’s of the AO F14 sailing to people, world wide, who have requested them, and always with very positive feed back from them after they have viewed them)
Personally I have always considered that the most demanding AND rewarding sailing has always been on a cat around the 14’ size. This size requires that to perform well on the water a sailer has to concentrate to the utmost, as even a small error of judgement will drop you back in a fleet enormously. This is a size of boat that is not very forgiving of “mistakes”. It is a size that requires very good seamanship to sail it well, it is very hard to gain places on a 14’ but very easy to lose them and that is why it is such a great test of a sailers worth on the water. On larger cats, the same small errors that cost so dearly on a 14’ are not as noticeable to their overall performance. The weight placement on larger cats has far less of the immediate critical effect on performance and even the sail trim is not on the same “knife edge” of whether or not the cat goes or goes backwards in a fleet. Having said that, and having sailed (designed and built many myself as well) every size of “off the beach cat” that there is, it really has surprised me that when, two designs (at least) of F14 catamarans have been produced, and that have shown, over an extended period of time, to be FAR superior in all round performance, to any and all preceding 14’ cat(s) that have ever existed and yet there has not been at least, a moderate number of sailers prepared to “move into” the class. It is even more puzzling to me when I watch week after week two F14 Alpha Omega’s competing equally with cats that are much bigger and way more expensive, and many times (not always of course), the F14’s are finishing ahead of the bigger, more expensive cats, over the line. Just look at the current comparative Yachting Victoria yardsticks to get an idea of just how competitive the F14’s are. In all humility, I have to ask, JUST WHAT DO THE SAILING PUBLIC WANT?
That is not to say that I have any regrets for designing and building the Alpha Omega F14, for like Berny, it has fulfilled my personal desire to “take the 14’ cat” to a place that I felt it could go but where few, if any one else was prepared to put their “money where their mouths were”.
I don’t think that the F14 is dead, I think that it’s time is not quite here yet – but it WILL come -

#101403 - 10/26/07 06:19 PM Re: Formula 14 development [Re: Darryl_Barrett]  
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Luiz Offline
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Luiz  Offline
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Quote
I don’t think that the F14 is dead, I think that it’s time is not quite here yet – but it WILL come -


I believe the F14 will find its public after an even smaller kids' cat becomes available.

It is unlikely that a kid who started in an Optimist would upgrade to an F14. It is also unlikely that more experienced sailors "downgrade" to an F14, regardless the higher skill requirements. When going small they seem to want simplicity (Wave).

I only see kids who start in a smaller cat upgrading to the F14 as they grow heavier (and the F16, Tornado, etc. later on).

Think about it: there would never be a strong 29er or Laser class without a strong Optimit class to feed them. That's why if you want a strong F14 class, first you must support the F12 or another entry cat for kids.

By the way, I have doubts regarding the name "F12".

The Optimist could have failed if it was named "Pessimist", "Storm" or "Rocket". Those names tend to scare parents, who ultimately decide what entry boat their siblings will sail.

At least for me, "Formula" is associated primarily with Formula 1 car races, high speed, high technology - and very famous accidents. It is cool for the upgrade boat (F14, F16, etc.), but I'd rather use a name that inspires only positive thoughts and confidence.

"KidCat" wouldn't be bad: it's short, easy to say, meaningful and evocates the close relationship between a kid and its pet (= home). KidCat delivers the message that it is a cat designed and intended for kids. This line of thought runs paralel to a kid's toy, implying fun, safety and simplicity. The name says it all. Just my opinion, naturally.


Luiz
#101404 - 10/27/07 07:44 PM Re: Formula 14 development [Re: Luiz]  
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phill Offline
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Central Coast NSW Australia
Luiz,
I know both Berny and Darryl. I have seen first hand how both Berny's 4.3 and Darryl's Alpha perform and they
are both far and away superior to any other 14 ft boat
out there. They really are both great boats.

I think you make a very good point.
"I only see kids who start in a smaller cat upgrading to the F14 as they grow heavier"
While I agree with your statement I do not wish to infer
that the F14 is not suitable for adults. The challenge is convincing the market they should embrace the F14.
A longer route to that destination may be to to develop
the market from the beginning by making cat sailing more accessable to children at a very young age so they
develop into cat sailors.

I have always thought that we needed to develop a complete range of quality boats.
Not just any old thing that satisfies some basic
measurements like we have now.
Each design has to be quality in every way in order to catch them young and train them to be life long cat
sailors.

This new rang of boats needs to take into account ease of handling onshore, and therefore the weight of the boat is critical, as well as the time to rig, cost, handling on
the water and asthetics.
This was my general line of thinking when I first started working on a 12 ft design.
It had to be a very simple boat to rig to take up little to none of the parents time in rigging etc. and keep costs right down which would make it more appealing to the family budget.
Light weight so it can easily be moved around etc.
Since intrducing Wouter to this initial concept including the free standing rig he has pushed the concept more towards an older childs boat.
I firmly believe we should be getting the 12 ft boats into the hands of 7-12 yr olds.
Possibly use what Wouter's thinking about as an interim step between this and the F14. No doubt many individuals that would walk this path would not go past the F14
once they get there.

I think this is more about developing the market through more approariate and marketable designs.
I see the boats developed by Darryl and Berny to be a part of the whole strategy.

If this could be made happen I believe it would be a great boast to the sport in general.
I just think if we can put really good quality designs into the hands of the very young they will be more inclined to stay with the sport and continue to grow and develop as
cat sailors.

This is just the way I see it.

Regards,
Phill


I know that the voices in my head aint real,
but they have some pretty good ideas.
There is no such thing as a quick fix and I've never had free lunch!

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