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#101405 - 10/28/07 08:43 PM Re: Formula 14 development [Re: phill]  
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Luiz Offline
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Quote

I have always thought that we needed to develop a complete range of quality boats... Each design has to be quality in every way in order to catch them young and train them to be life long cat sailors.


Fully agreed, Phill.

New cats today target adult sailors mostly - and in the long run this is a big mistake.

A school without kindergarten depends on other kindergartens to "feed" students to its first grade. It works well while they recommend that specific school to parents, but the school shrinks if they don't. Or worse, it may go bankrupt.

Likewise, we can't depend on teachers from the Optimist or Laser class to recommend cats as the next boat for their students.

The solution is, as you wrote, an entry level cat targeting the same market niche that is currently monopolized by the Optimist class.
-Then we need at least one cat designed for sailors who started at the entry level cat and got too heavy or too old - the F12!
-Then we need a third and bigger one - the F14! The fourth is not a problem: more than enough alternatives exist nowadays.

This range should also include other 11 to 15ft cat classes, but not too many. The Hobie Wave is already there as a cruising option.

But still: without an excellent entry level cat, catsailing remains dependent on monohull-trained sailors willing to try cats, old windsurfers or kiters searching for something less physically demanding while almost as thrilling, etc.

A one design kids' cat is prioritary. I believe it should be about the size of an Optimist, rigged with a more efficient sail, faster (can't be different) but safer, easier to assemble and cheaper.

I'll invest some time/money in this idea as soon as my ("almost ready") boat is finished.

Back to the name: Entry Level Cat = ELC or ELCat or El Cat (too Spanish?)


Luiz
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#101406 - 10/29/07 01:13 AM Re: Formula 14 development [Re: Luiz]  
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Jim Boyer, built a nice little mini Taipan a few years back. Bill Nocoll and Ian Marcovich did a nice small 14 that was easy enough to handle. Hobie has the Bravo.

It's hard to know just what would work given that these have all been offered in the last 10 years and none of them have been that successful.
I would have thought that any progressive cat club would have a couple of Hobie Brovo's as trainers.

The paper Tiger is also a great little training boat with lots of good gear to learn about but is mostly only sailed by older guys???

I have no idea?????

[Linked Image].

[Linked Image]

Berny

Last edited by Berny; 10/29/07 01:17 AM.
#101407 - 10/29/07 01:29 AM Re: Formula 14 development [Re: Berny]  
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Hey Berny I missed this post until now, thanks for the offer of the moulds I'll PM you now. Its exciting to think that a kid that starts with a heavier version would seek to build your original version, as he/she got older and could just keep improving the platform or upgrading to quality components knowing that their next boat will be an F14. One day when they get real serious they would probably look into the commercial world and pay a professional to build the hulls maybe even you! The main thing is keeping juniors interested in cats, its tiring doing it but rewarding.
many thanks again Berny
regards


Jeff Southall
Nacra 5.8 1667 Ram Raider
Nacra 18 Square
Taipan 5.7 134
Mosquito 404
Arrow 1576
#101408 - 10/29/07 08:07 AM Re: Formula 14 development [Re: Berny]  
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The starting point is not the boat design itself, but a work plan.

The start of the work plan is a market survey. We should start surveying kids, parents and teachers in the Optimist class what they'd expect and like to see in a modern boat to replace the Optimist.

The goal is to compete with the Optimist in the same market niche, so we should think and act as developers of a new entry boat to replace -with advantages- the old monohull trainer.

One example of a common design mistake: kids sail "inside" the Optimist and "over" cats like those in the photos. I bet parents prefer a boat where kids can duck inside. They don't like the idea of kids falling in the water when bumped by others - which happens all too often in the begining.

So, we start surveying the target market. As resuts start to materialize, and if the project seems feasible, we shoud atract the big cat manufacturing companies. They will have to cooperate with each other and with the new class to make their total market grow. Reason: ultimately, they will be the main economic beneficiaries.

Only then can a complete project be developed. But by project I don't mean a boat project: the project must include at least the class rules (especially with regards to construction); a global marketing plan based on the need to update the Optimist and, only then, the boat itself.

What some may not like is the inclusion of big manufacturers in the elaboration of the class rules, marketing plan and boat plan. They master their business and the constraints for serial production and sales better than we do, so this is necessary, in my opinion.

Work plan - first draft:

1-Survey
2-Concept definition
3-Feasibility study
4-Class rules
5-Marketing plan
6-Boat design

In paralel:

a) Creation of a core group to start the class.

b) Atraction of the main cat builders around the world. This probably means two US companies, two or more European companies and other smaller companies from around the world (Australia, New Zealand, China, etc.)

c) Atraction of the main cat classes organizations, like the Tornado, A Class, Hobie 16, F16, F18, etc. They are also beneficiaries from the entry level cat.

d) Class creation.


Luiz
#101409 - 10/29/07 04:28 PM Re: Formula 14 development [Re: Luiz]  
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Luiz, I think your systematic approach is good, but you should also make sure first that others who might work with you (and I'm purely an observer here) agree with your basic premise that the objective is to compete in the same market as the Optimist. I'm not sure that that's what others here are thinking. 14' is a huge amount of boat for a kid of the size that sails an Optimist. I think you also need to develop a clear understanding of how the concept relates to possible F12 development. Regardless of whether you are trying to complement or compete with it, people should know what the intention is.

#101410 - 10/29/07 04:48 PM Re: Formula 14 development [Re: Luiz]  
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How do parents just buy a $12000 new small cat and turn their little novice loose on it. It is going to come into the beach one day with boards down, it will bounce around in the swell on its side for a while the kids must be encouraged to tip it and right it whenever they think of it. The problem for the manufacturer is they probably have to build and market a boat at a loss to bring through dedicated young sailors. The 420's I have fit the bill they are robust easy to fix easy to right great starter boat. First thing I tell kids and novice adults is dont worry if you break something I'll fix it so the pressure is off them. Imagine a young sailor starting on a 14 cat then offering them the 420, they would never sail again! The advantage the mono has is Olympic class and that encourages the kids even if they don't make it, its the dream so first the cat maufacturers have to get young backsides on boats then with numbers comes the statistics to get cats in the Olympics. Kingston has 9 cats sailing there are now 7 private 420's and 7 school owned 420's in the town. All of our kids are sailing mono's what sort of statistic is that to present to the Olympic federation. The manufacturer with the long term patience to partly sponsor kids into boats should earn every cat sailors gratitude and support.
regards


Jeff Southall
Nacra 5.8 1667 Ram Raider
Nacra 18 Square
Taipan 5.7 134
Mosquito 404
Arrow 1576
#101411 - 10/30/07 01:24 AM Re: Formula 14 development [Re: MarkMT]  
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Mark,
I'm certainly not talking about a 14 ft boat for a 7-12 yr olds.
It's more like a max of 12ft and would be in competition with the Optimist.

I assume this is what Luiz is also referring to but I could be wrong.
We were talking about a boat to feed the F14 class.

In fact it may feed the class that feeds the F14 class as I beleive the need is for a range of boats to bring kids up to boats such as the F14.

My original idea was to design a 12ft Blade with a free standing rig for young kids 7-12 yrs or up to 60kg.

Jeff,
This boat would be very simple.
I will only have hulls,beams,tramp,mast,sock luffed sail with batterns, mainsheet, tiller and rudders.
No other parts. All aimed at keeping the costs and rigging time down.

It will have skegs and be light enough for kids to drag around the beach on its skegs which are part of the hull moulding.

It is designed to be grown out of.
Because if they can't grow out of it, it is too big for the young ones in the first place.

Regards,
Phill


I know that the voices in my head aint real,
but they have some pretty good ideas.
There is no such thing as a quick fix and I've never had free lunch!

#101412 - 10/30/07 06:46 AM Re: Formula 14 development [Re: phill]  
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Quote
My original idea was to design a 12ft Blade with a free standing rig for young kids 7-12 yrs or up to 60kg.


I agree with Phil on this, I teach children in Optimists, at my club we have around 50 kids sailing them on a Monday night, my older children 5,8 and 10, all sail optimists. So selfishly I want the F12 to be a boat for them. I get the feeling that Wouter also wants the boat to be for him!

Ultimately I believe the hulls should be rotomoulded. Sorry to mention the plastic word on this forum.

Have you seen the Open Bic? I bet that this is the future of Kids monohull sailing. They start off with an Optimist rig on this boat and then add the Bic rig for more performance. Can't we do tis with the Kids F12.

http://www.openbic.com/

Gareth

#101413 - 10/30/07 07:59 AM Re: Formula 14 development [Re: phill]  
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That certainly makes sense Phill, but the morphing of the thread has been a little subtle. Luiz's post was a reply to Berny, who was talking about a couple of 14' boats. I just want to make sure people aren't misunderstanding each other here (yeah I know that's hard to imagine on catsailor, but it could happen!).

#101414 - 10/30/07 09:33 AM Re: Formula 14 development [Re: phill]  
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Luiz Offline
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Quote
I'm certainly not talking about a 14 ft boat for a 7-12 yr olds.
It's more like a max of 12ft and would be in competition with the Optimist.

I assume this is what Luiz is also referring to but I could be wrong.



Sorry for diverting from the F14 subject - it created some confusion. You are 100% right on your assumption.


Luiz
#101415 - 11/01/07 07:10 AM Re: Formula 14 development [Re: Luiz]  
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Sounds like a good idea Phill. When do we start??? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Berny

#101416 - 11/01/07 12:51 PM Re: Formula 14 development [Re: phill]  
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Quote
Mark,
I'm certainly not talking about a 14 ft boat for a 7-12 yr olds.
It's more like a max of 12ft and would be in competition with the Optimist.

I assume this is what Luiz is also referring to but I could be wrong.
We were talking about a boat to feed the F14 class.

In fact it may feed the class that feeds the F14 class as I beleive the need is for a range of boats to bring kids up to boats such as the F14.

My original idea was to design a 12ft Blade with a free standing rig for young kids 7-12 yrs or up to 60kg.

Jeff,
This boat would be very simple.
I will only have hulls,beams,tramp,mast,sock luffed sail with batterns, mainsheet, tiller and rudders.
No other parts. All aimed at keeping the costs and rigging time down.

It will have skegs and be light enough for kids to drag around the beach on its skegs which are part of the hull moulding.

It is designed to be grown out of.
Because if they can't grow out of it, it is too big for the young ones in the first place.

Regards,
Phill

Phill I can see the sense of a smaller boat, would a 12 carry an adult safely to instruct a kid and would a novice adult feel comfortable
regards


Jeff Southall
Nacra 5.8 1667 Ram Raider
Nacra 18 Square
Taipan 5.7 134
Mosquito 404
Arrow 1576
#101417 - 11/01/07 06:41 PM Re: Formula 14 development [Re: JeffS]  
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The first cat that Windrush made (and their highest number of sales) was a 12' "surf cat". Cheap, strong, great fun for kids or for TWO adults. They were used for years also for "off the beach" hire fleets - always sailed with at least one adult (for hire) and often with two adults and one or two kids (even though with more than one adult on board they suffered obviously with performance), but they did bring many many new people into sailing catamarans.
In the mid to late seventies I used to hire out a fleet of 30 of them over summer, off the beach here at Somerton/Brighton together with a 13í cat that we made just for that business.

#101418 - 11/01/07 07:28 PM Re: Formula 14 development [Re: Darryl_Barrett]  
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phill Online content
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Darryl,
It was the 12 Surfcat by Windrush that we used at the sailing club. The kids loved them but they were rather dated in appearance. There are other small boats out there but the way I see it they all suffer the same drawbacks. From my perspective we need something today that looks fast sitting on the beach to market to both the kids and parents. It also has to work well and be convenient to rig and move around and not cost the world.

Regards,
Phill


I know that the voices in my head aint real,
but they have some pretty good ideas.
There is no such thing as a quick fix and I've never had free lunch!

#101419 - 11/01/07 07:55 PM Re: Formula 14 development [Re: Berny]  
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Bern,
I have been working on and off on the design since 2003 and while ideas have been evolving they are pretty well settled now and I just need to bring it all together and draw it up
which I'd like to think I could do late next week.

I plan on using the same beams I extrude for the F16 because this boat will need proportionally larger beams.
I have a friend who has nearly finished a rather large CNC 3 axis cutter that could be used to make alloy moulds for the
boards and even cut out kits if need be down track.

Getting the free standing rig to work will be the most interesting and most exciting part of the project.

I can make the sails for the rig and already have a basic design that needs to be fine tuned during the prototyping process. Still do not have a mast but that should not be too hard as the sail has a luff pocket so just need round tube that does not fail.
I think I have enough foam left over from the F18 plug to make a 12 ft plug.
I'm in the middle of another project which needs to be sorted before I can actually do anything meaningful.
Happy to talk to you about it anytime.

Regards,
Phill


I know that the voices in my head aint real,
but they have some pretty good ideas.
There is no such thing as a quick fix and I've never had free lunch!

#101420 - 11/01/07 08:00 PM Re: Formula 14 development [Re: JeffS]  
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phill Online content
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Jeff,
The hulls would certainly have the buoyancy the restriction on the weigh is more to do with the free standing rig lifting the windward hull. So I suppose it is more performance related.

Regards,
Phill


I know that the voices in my head aint real,
but they have some pretty good ideas.
There is no such thing as a quick fix and I've never had free lunch!

#101421 - 11/01/07 11:36 PM Re: Formula 14 development [Re: phill]  
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Thanks Darryl and Phill I'll watch your 12ft ideas, do you have a price you are trying to work to?
regards


Jeff Southall
Nacra 5.8 1667 Ram Raider
Nacra 18 Square
Taipan 5.7 134
Mosquito 404
Arrow 1576
#101422 - 11/02/07 12:55 AM Re: Formula 14 development [Re: grob]  
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phill Online content
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Gareth,
I did consider two rigs.
If used in a sailing school it would be very handy and not very expensive addition. Just an extension that plugs into the mast and a different sail.
I agree, that to get the cost of the boat cheap enough for the family budget rottomoulding could be an option.
I don't suppose it is something that you'd consider before
confirming the existence of a good market.

Do you have any idea of the tooling costs?

Also I'd really like to be able to do some weight calculations on RM hulls.
In foam sandwich the hulls would be around 11 to 12 kg each max and could be as low as 10kg because they are so simple. I'd love to know the weight of an equivalent rottomould hull.

The hulls will not have the normal high loadings from bridle etc because the free standing rig will transfer the loading through the front beam. They just need reasonable tortional strength between the beams although sheeting from the ends of the rear beam instead of the centre will help a little with this.
While RM may be needed it would be a shame because it just isn't a nice as foam sandwich.

Regards,
Phill


I know that the voices in my head aint real,
but they have some pretty good ideas.
There is no such thing as a quick fix and I've never had free lunch!

#101423 - 11/02/07 04:55 AM Re: Formula 14 development [Re: phill]  
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grob Offline
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Phill,

The cost of rotomoulding is a tricky one, most rotomoulded tooling is cast aluminium, traditionally the castings are quite complex and therefore expensive. However rotomoulded tooling can also be fabricated, that means you can make it by welding together sheets of aluminium. This in turn means that if you know the right people you could probably fabricate tooling for any boat that could traditionally be made in marine ply relatively cheaply. Although tortured ply designs would require more skill to fabricate than developable surfaces. I guess this is your field of expertise. Sorry I havenít mentioned any real numbers. I have a friend who is a rotomoulder so I can get some real numbers for you next week.

The next thing to do is find a rotomoulder as you will then need to add the jig fixtures to your tooling and they may be specific to the rotomoulder.

The next issue is weight, I guess the average hull would be 5mm thick polyethylene which has a density of 1g/cc so an F12 with a surface area of 4m2 would weigh 5x1x4=20kg, When you get into more complex rotomoulding that uses foamed polyethylene cores you may get down to 14kg but this gets more expensive to produce. Because polyethylene is no where near as stiff as GRP foam sandwich you may need to tweak the design a little to add stiffening ribs like the Dart 16 has.

All the best

Gareth

#101424 - 11/02/07 05:45 AM Re: Formula 14 development [Re: phill]  
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Wouter Offline
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Phill,

In all kindness I feel that this is a good time to suggest further and deeper analyse your idea's.

Quote

Just an extension that plugs into the mast and a different sail.


Your idea's, like this one, have been tried in other classes already and found wanting. The lasers tried this trick with the 4.7 rig and found that it was insufficiently controllable. They now sell a complete different mast and sail combination for the 4.7 version then is used by the radial and standard version.

Rotomoulding. Do the math and find the reason why the 3.95 mtr long Hobie wave (115 kg) actually weights more then a F16. Rotomoulding hulls are not lightweight by any stretch of the imagination.


Quote

The hulls will not have the normal high loadings from bridle etc because the free standing rig will transfer the loading through the front beam.



I know you hate my push rod setup but there is a very good reason why it is there. You can't just have the beam lift the hulls out of the water. As you know yourself even the 80x2 is very bendy when held on one end while the other end is lifted. The reason why say an F16 platform is so stiff despite this flexibility is the result of how the forces are actively working against one another. This aspect of your design really needs some closer analysis. There are some pittfalls here that your current design doesn't address yet.


Quote

... although sheeting from the ends of the rear beam instead of the centre will help a little with this.



That is not true. Interestingly enough is will actually increase the bending of the from beam under the mast step loading. Like I said there are some interesting things going on here.


I'm sorry, you are not "a week away" from completing the design.

My flame suit is on, so everybody feel free to "give it to the Dutch guy we all love to hate"

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
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