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#101425 - 11/02/07 05:51 AM Re: Formula 14 development [Re: grob]  
Joined: Jun 2001
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Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
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Just as info.

My F12 hull has a total surface area of 5 sq. mtr. and when it is made out of 4 mm ply it will weight 17.5 kg per hull. From 5 mm thick Polyethylene it will weight at least 25 kg per hull, but probably more because of the stiffeners. Polyethylene is surprisingly flexible. They aren't calling the Dart 16's tupperware boats for nothing. The sides of the earlier versions do indeed feel alot like tupperware. Feeling the hull wobble underneath you will sailing is not a reinsureing experience.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
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#101426 - 11/02/07 06:14 AM Re: Formula 14 development [Re: Wouter]  
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phill Offline
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Central Coast NSW Australia
Wouter,
It's interesting that you feel the need.

Aaah well.......

Regards,
Phill


I know that the voices in my head aint real,
but they have some pretty good ideas.
There is no such thing as a quick fix and I've never had free lunch!

#101427 - 11/02/07 07:20 AM Re: Formula 14 development [Re: Wouter]  
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grob Offline
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Brighton, UK
Wouter,

Unless you have changed your designs from the ones that you asked me to draw up for you then you might be pleased to hear that the surface area of your hull is 4.3sqm.

To be honest no-one really refers to modern rotmomoulded boats as tupperware boats anymore, rotomoulding has come on along way in recent years. Most mass produced dinghies are made this way. The computer controlled molds can do some amazing things such as creating much lighter stiffer boats by using foamed polyethylene between solid skins. They can form thicker sections locally and contain stiffening members. Although they won't be as light as ply or GRP sandwich they are much better than you are making out.

Most holiday companies and rental companies won't entertain the idea of a boat made from any other process. This "feeling the hull wobble underneath you" is just nonsense.

All the best

Gareth

#101428 - 11/02/07 12:11 PM Re: Formula 14 development [Re: grob]  
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Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
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bulkheads

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 11/02/07 12:12 PM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
#101429 - 11/02/07 03:47 PM Re: Formula 14 development [Re: grob]  
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phill Offline
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Gareth,
I'd be interested to learn what I can about rotomoulding.
I have another project for which I think it would probably be ideal.

Regards,
Phill


I know that the voices in my head aint real,
but they have some pretty good ideas.
There is no such thing as a quick fix and I've never had free lunch!

#101430 - 11/02/07 05:41 PM Re: Formula 14 development [Re: Wouter]  
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grob Offline
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grob  Offline
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Quote

bulkheads

Wouter


No Sorry you can't have them with the rotomoulding process. Hollow hulls only.

#101431 - 11/03/07 06:53 AM Re: Formula 14 development [Re: grob]  
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Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
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Quote

No Sorry you can't have them with the rotomoulding process. Hollow hulls only.



Start adding much more weight then as the bulkheads really do firm up the hulls.

I refer back to my point. The reason the Hobie wave and other roto stuff is soo heavy is because of the decision to go rotomoulded.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
#101432 - 11/12/07 06:48 AM Re: Formula 14 development [Re: phill]  
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grob Offline
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grob  Offline
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Quote
Gareth,
I'd be interested to learn what I can about rotomoulding.
I have another project for which I think it would probably be ideal.

Regards,
Phill


Phill I sent you an email last week about rotomoulding if you need to know more email me at gareth(at)fourhulls.com

All the best

Gareth

#101433 - 11/12/07 08:15 PM Re: Formula 14 development [Re: grob]  
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Berny Offline
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Sydney Australia
We already have two very nice [if I say so myself] 14ft cats in the 430 and the AO. The problem is not so much with the length, [12ft or 14ft makes little difference], but with functionality. In this regard, weight and sail area are more critical. What is more desirable, a 12ft roto moulded heavy slug or a 14ft glass/resin rocket which is already available = no development costs?
These current boats could be offered with optional rigs. Say a smaller rig for entry level which can be replaced with a full size cat rig to keep pace with sailor skill levels and on going through to full blown F14 rig, all on the same platform. Has to be more appealing to the funds provider to have a boat which could be campaigned over an extended period.
We could make provision for these 'tuned down' versions in our 14ft regattas, which brings up another important point. Where will these boats be sailed other than at 14ft regattas [two only in Oz I'm aware of] or club level?
It's totally useless to make a 12ft or 14ft cat available if there's nowhere to race the things.

Cat sailors generally, are only interested in bigger boats and can't really be bothered with small cats at regattas. And it gets worse with the current trend to run only windward leeward courses for the 'formula' boats which leaves non spi boats with nowhere to race!
Small cats have always been looked on with disdain here and I don't see much happening in the near future to change that.

Berny

Last edited by Berny; 11/12/07 10:32 PM.
#101434 - 11/13/07 01:39 PM Re: Formula 14 development [Re: Berny]  
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Luiz Offline
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Asuncion, Paraguay
Quote

Small cats have always been looked on with disdain here and I don't see much happening in the near future to change that.


Except not having a multihull in the Olympics, partially as a consequence of not supporting an entry level cat.


Luiz
#101435 - 11/13/07 02:27 PM Re: Formula 14 development [Re: Luiz]  
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JeffS Offline
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Kingston SE South Australia
Quote
Quote

Small cats have always been looked on with disdain here and I don't see much happening in the near future to change that.


Except not having a multihull in the Olympics, partially as a consequence of not supporting an entry level cat.


Yep if were not bringing juniors through on cats and just poaching them off dinghys when we can, were killing off our own class
regards


Jeff Southall
Nacra 5.8 1667 Ram Raider
Nacra 18 Square
Taipan 5.7 134
Mosquito 404
Arrow 1576
#101436 - 11/13/07 03:23 PM Re: Formula 14 development [Re: grob]  
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phill Offline
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Central Coast NSW Australia
Gareth,
Thankyou for the info. Sorry for not getting back to you , been rather busy.
I will get back to you for more info when I'm a bit closer to the project I have in mind.

Thanks, again.

Regards,
Phill


I know that the voices in my head aint real,
but they have some pretty good ideas.
There is no such thing as a quick fix and I've never had free lunch!

#101437 - 11/16/07 03:05 AM Re: Formula 14 development [Re: phill]  
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Berny Offline
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Sydney Australia
Entry level cat?
= Optimist or Sabot.
Every cat club should have a fleet of these.

Here it is already done and dusted and when they get off this they can go to F14. [Linked Image]

Last edited by Berny; 11/16/07 03:10 AM.
#101438 - 12/06/07 02:28 AM Re: Formula 14 development [Re: Berny]  
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ncik Offline
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ncik  Offline
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Brisbane, Queensland, Australi...
What is it? A Hobie Thing? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

#101439 - 10/03/08 04:53 AM Re: Formula 14 development [Re: Berny]  
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Gato Offline
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Finland
Every club should have at least some of theese F12 cats <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
http://www.gust.ax/gallery/f12/08-06-25/
http://www.gust.ax/gallery/f12/08-09-25/

Last edited by Gato; 10/03/08 04:55 AM.
#157683 - 10/20/08 10:41 AM Re: Formula 14 development [Re: Gato]  
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Gato Offline
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Gato  Offline
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Finland
I have been participating to the F12 class in the way I have been building two protos on the designs of Scarecrow and Ncik. What has become quite obvious to me is that there is a need for a modern entry cat even for the adults. Many adults would like to sail the F12, but itís a little bit to small if you are over 70 kg. The more or less max displacement of that boat is 120kg (the ready to sail platform weight just under 50 kg). The two extra feet would give the displacement needed and it would be possible for a reasonable price to homebuild a modern cat ready to sail for say around 3000USD.

#159064 - 11/03/08 07:11 AM Re: Formula 14 development [Re: Gato]  
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Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
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Quote

What has become quite obvious to me is that there is a need for a modern entry cat even for the adults. Many adults would like to sail the F12, but itís a little bit to small if you are over 70 kg. The more or less max displacement of that boat is 120kg (the ready to sail platform weight just under 50 kg).



And I see we have come full circle on this aspect of the F12. It is not an issue to increase the bouyancy of the hulls to carry heavier adults on a F12. Sadly, some people (but not you Gato) were very vocal about making it a kiddies class and going for even more lightweight low volume hulls.

Now they have won and split a significant customer section off the F12 class, the group that actually holds the money !

I say lets revise the F12 concept to include these adults and let go of the "just for kids" mindset once and for all !

A man shouting in the desert,

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 11/03/08 07:14 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
#161615 - 11/29/08 05:54 PM Re: Formula 14 development [Re: Wouter]  
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 98
WillLints Offline
journeyman
WillLints  Offline
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Posts: 98
Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
Back to the F 14 high performance Berny / Darryl designs and attracting new sailors. I have seen a lot of new people buy an old H16 and love it until the first capsize, and then I never see them again. I think fear of capsizing is quite intimidating. Perhaps, offer a full race platform with a significantly de-powered uni rig and an optional snuffer loaded with something more like a gennaker that most any one can safely sail and learn to sail and have fun. Let them drool as the fully compliant F 14s go screaming by. At anytime they can upgrade to the fast and exciting and wet sail plan.


Will_Lints
one-up, Blade 706, epoxy bottoms
#161620 - 11/30/08 06:55 AM Re: Formula 14 development [Re: WillLints]  
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Gato Offline
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Gato  Offline
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Finland
Iím thinking absolutely in the same direction as you, and itís more or less what Iím going to do. Build a modern platform, but make it more easy to transport, rig and sail. As Iím doing a lot of raid sailing, camping on the tramp for the night I donít want to swim to much. And I honestly think there are more people like me, who would like a modern platform not to difficult to sail and at a reasonable price.

#161623 - 11/30/08 09:17 AM Re: Formula 14 development [Re: Gato]  
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_flatlander_ Offline
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38.912, -95.37
Originally Posted by Gato
Iím thinking absolutely in the same direction as you, and itís more or less what Iím going to do. Build a modern platform, but make it more easy to transport, rig and sail. As Iím doing a lot of raid sailing, camping on the tramp for the night I donít want to swim to much. And I honestly think there are more people like me, who would like a modern platform not to difficult to sail and at a reasonable price.
or can the F12 be lengthened by say 8" and the weight increased from 50 kilos to say 60-65 to allow for a bit more buoyancy and power? The drawback of 14' is requirement of a trailer for transport.


John H16, H14
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