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Whats up with 400 pound boats????? #102144
03/30/07 04:20 PM
03/30/07 04:20 PM
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Maybe this will stir things up, and I am sure it has been conquered before BUT why didn't the HT take off? Why is everyone still sailing boats that weigh 400 pounds? Why wouldn't the popularity of the A class change some of the other classes (admittedly a cats certainly have durability issues, right? but you don't need to make them THAT light). I talked with someone recently who certainly knows what he is talking about who said he talked with one of the F18 manufacturers who stated that he had to try hard to OVERBUILD the boat to get it up to weight. Isn't the era of 400 pound 18 footers coming to an end yet? Even 400 pound 20 footers should die soon.
As far as reliability/durability, I haven't had my boat for very long but I see no reason why it won't last as long as any other boat.

Soooooo... WTF is with manufacturers that still make boats heavier than they need to be? There are minimum weights, etc etc, but when do you think the regular F18 class might decide to shed 100 unnecessary pounds?

Last edited by PTP; 03/30/07 09:02 PM.
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Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: PTP] #102145
03/30/07 04:27 PM
03/30/07 04:27 PM
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when do you think the regular F18 class might decide to shed 100 unnecessary pounds?


When the class decides to committ seppukku and make every one of its members sell their boat and buy a new one just to "make it lighter".

Like the F18 guys will all tell you, it doesn't really matter that your boat weights that much when all the other boats you're racing against are the same.

Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: MauganN20] #102146
03/30/07 04:39 PM
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I understand about the "selling boats" issue but it was possible to make them 100 lbs lighter 10 years ago without losing strength, so why didn't they? And why does the N20 weigh LESS than the F18? Carbon mast I guess... but lose weight somewhere else then

Last edited by PTP; 03/30/07 06:33 PM.
Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: PTP] #102147
03/30/07 04:54 PM
03/30/07 04:54 PM
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Lighter is not always better for the masses.

We tried that with the 17 when it came out. It got progressivly heavier over the years to address the typical users treatment of the boat. "Most" people do not care for their boats as well as they should.


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Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: PTP] #102148
03/30/07 05:12 PM
03/30/07 05:12 PM
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You guys will all probably think this is silly, but as a woman, I have always preferred a boat that is fairly heavy, because I feel safer on it. I feel as though in big winds and big seas it is going to stay on the water and not go blowing away like a leaf.

Maybe what we need is a boat that is light on shore but heavier on the water. The invention is up to you engineers. Sealed water ballast compartment aft of the main beam? Lead in the bottoms of the daggerboards? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Mary] #102149
03/30/07 05:22 PM
03/30/07 05:22 PM
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Atlanta
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I sailed in big winds one day and left the drain plug out on one hull, we were really fast on one tack.

How about a movealble water ballast?

Bill

Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: bvining] #102150
03/30/07 05:48 PM
03/30/07 05:48 PM
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Orlando, FL
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Don't have drain plugs for that reason ... one (or two) less things to think about!


USA 777
Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Mary] #102151
03/30/07 06:12 PM
03/30/07 06:12 PM
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Check the archives...

There was a detailed thread by Myself, Wouter and Bob Hodges which went through the history of the HT class development in the USA. Basically both classes started at the same time here in the US.

The 18HT boats were all built in the EU... and only the Bim's made it over here. The US dollar was very very strong... so boats were dirt cheap for about 2 years.

In the USA... Hobie and Performance had no plans to build a light weight boat. (Matt Miller spoke of Hobie's experience... Performance was of the same mind. Internationally the F18 class had a hell of a good start and was the dominant class in the EU and growing.

Peformance's major market is the EU... so they had to build a competitive boat for the EU market. Nacra had the Inter 18 in production... Snagged the Cirrius design of the French and then came out with the F18.... and then the Infusion. Hobie could start quickly in the US using the French built Tigers. Hobie solved the comp tip problem in the USA.

So ... The US and Australia market had to choose. Hobie and Performance decided to market the F18 in the states. The dealers offered support through the combined dealer network. The dollar collapsed. The major promotoer of the class, WF Oliver, had life changes and stopped actively promoting the class. And thus it was so... The US Sailor wanted the F18... not the F18HT.

So... what are the tradeoffs of Heavy versus Light?

Heavy... (Well.. it IS a two person boat.. its only 200 lbs per person... Thats just a bit more then an A cat... a suck it up wuss!)

Cheaper to build (Well... that just goes to profit margin because the hulls are not that much more to build then an 18 foot A Cat if the estimates are to be believed.)

Performance... discounting Mary's preference for a tank in a blow... She is a Hobie 18 sailor at heart after all.. Heavy costs you in sailing performance! Less speed... less helm feel.... less quick in the turns.

Tougher/stronger... This notion has been shot down many a time. Weight has nothing to do with structural properties sailing.

Heavy means the ability to take abuse from the user... Well.. that is Matt Millers point... I am not sure I understand how this actually works though.. How does more resin equal more abuse resistance?

What other tradoff's do people see?


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Mark Schneider] #102152
03/30/07 06:24 PM
03/30/07 06:24 PM
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Mark, thanks for the summary. I heard that part of the reason why the HT didn't take off here is because people tried to drive them like big 400lb boats which didn't work well.
I do understand the point Maug made about it doesn't truly matter if everyone is racing the same boat but just seems like we all spend so much time talking about this advance or that and this new sail design etc when the most popular boats are using building techniques invented 30 years ago (all this talk of resin infusion, etc, WTF is the point if it just gives you the same result?)

Last edited by PTP; 03/30/07 06:26 PM.
Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: PTP] #102153
03/30/07 06:36 PM
03/30/07 06:36 PM
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Maybe this will stir things up, and I am sure it has been conquered before BUT why didn't the HT take off? Why is everyone still sailing boats that weigh 400 pounds? Why wouldn't the popularity of the A class change some of the other classes (admittedly a cats certainly have durability issues, right? but you don't need to make them THAT light). I talked with someone recently who certainly knows what he is talking about who said he talked with one of the F18 manufacturers who stated that he had to try hard to OVERBUILD the boat to get it up to weight. Isn't the era of 400 pound 18 footers coming to an end yet? Even 400 pound 20 footers should die soon.
As far as reliability/durability, I haven't had my boat for very long but I see no reason why it won't last as long as any other boat.

Soooooo... WTF is with manufacturers that still make boats heavier than they need to be? There are minimum weights, etc etc, but when do you think the regular F18 class might decide to shed 100 unnecessary pounds?


What is so compelling that the weight of the most successful cat class introduced in the last 25 years be changed? Overall the F18 class is still going gangbusters.

Lowering the weight will probably improve their performance somewhat but then again will that extra knot of boat speed make them more enjoyable to sail?? Probably not. Will it make them more flighty and more difficult to handle in windy conditions for new people to the class? For sure.

Will the number of extra sailors that you attract to the class be more than those that leave because they are po'ed that their boat is not worthless because it is too heavy?

The very fact that HT didn't take off world wide is a strong indication that having the lightest class weight is not the most important thing when building a successful class.

Why did the founders of the class choose 180kg as a minimum?? Who knows. I'm sure there would have been a reasoned explanation at the time. Now, for better or worse, that is the weight for the foreseeable future. I don't see any compelling case to change it.

Tiger Mike

Last edited by TigerMike; 03/30/07 06:38 PM.
Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: PTP] #102154
03/30/07 06:36 PM
03/30/07 06:36 PM
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The HT design is a bit twisted... right.

You can debate the uni with a chute concept.... IF all you did were windward leeward races... great... but if you do the distance races... or raids as the EU guys call them... that missing jib and tall stick hurts like hell in high wind balls to the wall reaches.

Since the beam is 8 feet. not 8' 6"" and the stick is really tall... you have some issues.

... you can roll the boat around the course if you are not carefull. Its not hard to get the rig out of balance with your righting moment. The HT design formula is by no means the last word in how to build a GREAT 18 foot two person Cat.... (See the lust for a Blade 18 on F16 threads)

Finally, the Bim Hull shape seems to be optimized for lake sailing... It is much more challenging to sail it in big wind and waves then the other designs.... weight having nothing to do with this feature.

Its a fun boat as designed... Enjoy it.

Mark


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Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: PTP] #102155
03/30/07 06:40 PM
03/30/07 06:40 PM
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Because I think people don't want to RIP THEIR TRANSOM's off like Randy did at the Tradewinds..

But seriously, the f18 should have been 50lbs lighter..oh well.

Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: pitchpoledave] #102156
03/30/07 06:52 PM
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Because I think people don't want to RIP THEIR TRANSOM's off like Randy did at the Tradewinds..

But seriously, the f18 should have been 50lbs lighter..oh well.


has this happened any other time? Has anyone heard of any other similar catastrophic failure on an F18? That one incident gets brought up... what about the N20 that had a problem during last years Tybee? I can't remember the details but it was some sort of failure that led to them having to drop out. Please let me know if there were any other instances of the transoms ripping out.

I am not saying the HT is the perfect boat by any means... I am just curious about with all the advances in boat building it hasn't been applied to most beachcats so at least make them easier to move around on the beach.

Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Mark Schneider] #102157
03/30/07 07:16 PM
03/30/07 07:16 PM
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Heavy means the ability to take abuse from the user... Well.. that is Matt Millers point... I am not sure I understand how this actually works though.. How does more resin equal more abuse resistance?


Specifically the Hobie 17 experience: After the boat was introduced, we had to change to a heavier cloth and more of it. Mostly due to users poor trailering techniques. We had to use more cloth in the wing tubes because of lazy wing removal and installation. What the designers envisioned had to be changed for the reality of the marketplace. Easy and fool proof is what is expected from a Hobie Cat. The boat got heavier.


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Matt Miller
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Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: PTP] #102158
03/30/07 07:18 PM
03/30/07 07:18 PM
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Quote

I am not saying the HT is the perfect boat by any means... I am just curious about with all the advances in boat building it hasn't been applied to most beachcats so at least make them easier to move around on the beach.


Invest in a set of cat-trax or similar and moving an F18 about is easy enough. It's a bit awkward to put the rollers under by myself (but can be done) however it's no problem at all with the 2 of us.

Cheers,
Tiger Mike

Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: pitchpoledave] #102159
03/30/07 07:36 PM
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Because I think people don't want to RIP THEIR TRANSOM's off like Randy did at the Tradewinds..



Still waiting to hear anyone else who has heard of a transom getting ripped out of a HT...

Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: mmiller] #102160
03/30/07 07:41 PM
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Heavy means the ability to take abuse from the user... Well.. that is Matt Millers point... I am not sure I understand how this actually works though.. How does more resin equal more abuse resistance?


Specifically the Hobie 17 experience: After the boat was introduced, we had to change to a heavier cloth and more of it. Mostly due to users poor trailering techniques. We had to use more cloth in the wing tubes because of lazy wing removal and installation. What the designers envisioned had to be changed for the reality of the marketplace. Easy and fool proof is what is expected from a Hobie Cat. The boat got heavier.


You couldn't just cut down on the other overbuilt areas of the boat?

Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: PTP] #102161
03/30/07 08:22 PM
03/30/07 08:22 PM
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The real reason the F18HT class didn't take off in the USA was, there were (and still are) no US builders who could supply boats as quickly as they could supply the Tiger or Inter 18 instead. It would have cost Hobie and Nacra a bundle to produce an entirely new design and with no established class here in the US, quite risky for them to invest that kind of money.

There were many long debates here on Catsailor back when the Bimare F18HT was chosen for the Worrell race, about the suitablility and availability of the Jav 2 for the Worrell 1000. In the end, I think 5 of them did run that race along with the Inter 20's and one of them did finish in front of several Inter 20's. Not too bad for an 18 foot "lake boat" out in the ocean racing against 20 footers.

The F18HT class is active in Europe, where there are seveal builders who support the class. I was lucky enough to get a ride on one of the newer designs last summer with Andi Lutz, on his Mattia F18HT, http://www.goeast.ch/ost

They are good boats, light, powered up and fast, but you have to be good to handle them because like an A cat, they are not very forgiving of mistakes in big wind, but in light to medium there aren't many 400lb. boats than can hang with them.


Last edited by Timbo; 03/30/07 10:54 PM.

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Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Mark Schneider] #102162
03/30/07 08:32 PM
03/30/07 08:32 PM
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I see a market for an 18 footer that can operate on the same basis as the F16. I personally would dig an 18' spin boat that I could launch, sail and right solo but also be able to run 2 up. How about a new class, we'll cal it F18LT, min weight 230 to 250 lbs and correct what might have been goofy about the F18HT rule? I'm too light for heavy boats and heavy liquor. Ed


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Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: PTP] #102163
03/30/07 10:09 PM
03/30/07 10:09 PM
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You are right that a lighter boat would be nice, but not under built. What I think is the problem is that there needs to be a stronger 20 foot class for the lighter air that we get here in NA and also for the heavier teams. In a lot of places you go F18 or else open class if you want a 20 footer. Which sucks if your total weight is 400lbs..

Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: MauganN20] #102164
03/30/07 10:34 PM
03/30/07 10:34 PM
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...it doesn't really matter that your boat weights that much when all the other boats you're racing against are the same.


That follows the same reasoning used to defend monohull sailing. Why do you need another hull, wingmasts, full battened sails to double your speed, when everyone else's boat also drags lead and leans at 4.38 or 4.39 Knots?

Besides, races in slow motion are more "tactical"...


Luiz
Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Mary] #102165
03/30/07 10:50 PM
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I have always preferred a boat that is fairly heavy, because I feel safer on it.


Although you may feel safer in a heavier boat, if you keep all other things equal, the lighter boat will be safer in heavy weather. It will, however, need to depower earlier due to the lower righting moment.

Why you feel safer? Most beach cats can't be reefed, so the later you have to depower, the safer you feel. But it is a dangerously false safety feeling: the heavy boat is submitted to higher loads and, as a consequence, is more likely to break something (compared to the lighter/depowered boat).

The answers are outside the water:
1) From a reliable source: a folding tri is exposed to higher loads when trailered than in a squall.
2) User abuse, as already posted here.


Luiz
Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Luiz] #102166
03/31/07 06:59 AM
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And heavier boats sink faster.

Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: pitchpoledave] #102167
03/31/07 07:09 AM
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I am an engineer and in some of the weather and wave conditions I've sailed in, I've been amazed that our 400lb boats hold together. No doubt that the boats can be made lighter, but I really think that there is a point, right at about 400lbs, where a boat can be made with common inexpensive materials, and survive user abuse and pretty severe conditions. As time, technology, and processes evolve, this weight comes down - we can probably build a 320lb boat to the same durability as 400lb boats were built 15-20 years ago. However, I take comfort in the fact that I can take my overweight F18 or N20 out in steep 3 to 4 footers with 20 knots and not worry that the boat will hold together.


Jake Kohl
Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Luiz] #102168
03/31/07 08:06 AM
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I have always preferred a boat that is fairly heavy, because I feel safer on it.


Although you may feel safer in a heavier boat, if you keep all other things equal, the lighter boat will be safer in heavy weather. It will, however, need to depower earlier due to the lower righting moment.

Why you feel safer? Most beach cats can't be reefed, so the later you have to depower, the safer you feel. But it is a dangerously false safety feeling: the heavy boat is submitted to higher loads and, as a consequence, is more likely to break something (compared to the lighter/depowered boat).

The answers are outside the water:
1) From a reliable source: a folding tri is exposed to higher loads when trailered than in a squall.
2) User abuse, as already posted here.


The sail we used when we tore our main (which happened because the outhaul broke- chafe point, since corrected-, not from sheet tension alone) has a reef point, the only time I have ever seen a reef on a cat. I think Smyth developed it for this boat but my sail was made by Sabre.

Last edited by PTP; 03/31/07 08:14 AM.
Re: Whats up with 400 pound boats????? [Re: PTP] #102169
03/31/07 08:06 AM
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With you 100%
Do not understand the F18: Why build a boat supposedly economy minded to sail predominantly windward-leward races with a jib (and spin)?
And I dont think it is p c to say it is to give the wife something to do upwind.
If it is to be user friendly,and equality not speed is the goal, I for one think centerboards (prindle 19 and 18-2) or keels are a better deal. Lots of people struggle with Daggerboards.
Explain the attraction to me. What is better about a F18 that made them sell like supposed hotcakes, while the P19MX dissapeared, and no one bought the Bim HT (AS A BOAT OR CLASS)?

Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Jake] #102170
03/31/07 08:12 AM
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I am an engineer and in some of the weather and wave conditions I've sailed in, I've been amazed that our 400lb boats hold together. No doubt that the boats can be made lighter, but I really think that there is a point, right at about 400lbs, where a boat can be made with common inexpensive materials, and survive user abuse and pretty severe conditions. As time, technology, and processes evolve, this weight comes down - we can probably build a 320lb boat to the same durability as 400lb boats were built 15-20 years ago. However, I take comfort in the fact that I can take my overweight F18 or N20 out in steep 3 to 4 footers with 20 knots and not worry that the boat will hold together.


I think a poorly maintained/made 400lb boat won't hold together in crazy conditions, just like a poorly maintained lighter boat won't. Although I haven't been there yet, I am interested in seeinghow the HT does in those conditions. Mark Murray has been through a LOT on his HT and hasn't had any significant failures.

p.s. Dave- still waiting to hear about any other HTs that have had their transoms ripped out. That statement irritated the heck out of me because it is something that people will remember but is a rare occurence.

Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: PTP] #102171
03/31/07 08:51 AM
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Speaking of Mark Murray,
I was the crew of his ht when we participated in the ICCT and logged hundreds of hours on the boat and in the class. I Own an I20(which I love) and have sailed most types of beach cats. The HT is one of the best sailing boats out there. It is incredbly fine tuned. We were able to sail the boat using the downhaul as the only control. Let it out fly a hull, pull it in, hull comes down. I know though, and would agree, that many people found the boat difficult to sail. It takes a lot of technique and I think many good sailors were put off by the rear beam slamming and the relatively narrow "groove" that one finds when used to sailing an N20 , which is a wonderful and relatively forgiving boat. Crewing the boat was extremely athletic and kinetic compared to the heavier boats with more volume. Essentially, you have to sail the boat a lot differently than what most people are used too and when there are already more events/boats/participants in f18 and n20 events why relearn something? Though I have to say, once you do,the boat is sweet! An I20 has better straight line speed on a honking reach, but the Jav, in my opinion, has a greater grin factor in the most common conditions that we see here in NA.
However, witness the amount of work and money that went into every jav still sailing in the US. Lets take Peter Johnstones boat (where is that thing?) as one extreme of what can be done to make the boat better. He put, carbon beams, raised the rear beam, canted the hulls, three inch toe rails, awlgrip paint job, marstrom snuffer and tens of thousands of dollars into that boat, and it was AWESOME! Everyone else had to deal with flimsy daggerboards and rudders, leaky boats, and that darn rear beam slamming all the time unless your crew was an acrobat darting fore and aft on every wave. There was a lot of work to do to get those boats ready out of the box. Not like a new F18 where its ready to go the day you get it.

Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: I20RI] #102172
03/31/07 09:01 AM
03/31/07 09:01 AM
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Sebring, Florida.
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Just as production materials and techniques eventually switched from wooden boats to fiberglass, some day we will probably see carbon fiber become the new material of choice. It already is for the A cats, most racing mono masts are now also carbon, and rudders, boards, etc. When that happens the weights will come down.

The only thing keeping the F18's heavy now is their rule book. They could all be built 50-100 lbs. lighter today even without using carbon in the hulls, but their rules won't allow it. When they come out with a 300lb. F18, then the F16's will have to worry, but I doubt we will ever see that. Until then, the F16 is only 230lbs., not carbon, and just as fast as an F18. Even faster with the right crew! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Last edited by Timbo; 03/31/07 09:04 AM.
Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Timbo] #102173
03/31/07 10:11 AM
03/31/07 10:11 AM
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PTP,

I think you'll find several people from that years' tybee that can tell you about the issues they had with the HT's.

Most significantly, one team who spent the night on a Georgian Coast Mudflat because of issues with their boat.

Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: MauganN20] #102174
03/31/07 10:24 AM
03/31/07 10:24 AM
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PTP,

I think you'll find several people from that years' tybee that can tell you about the issues they had with the HT's.

Most significantly, one team who spent the night on a Georgian Coast Mudflat because of issues with their boat.


I understand there were likely problems, but it isn't like the HTs are the only boats with similar problems. What about the F18 at Tradewinds that broke a mast? Trey's boat during last year's Tybee? Didn't Cat in the Hat take on a lot of water which required a stop on the beach? Both N20s

Last edited by PTP; 03/31/07 10:25 AM.
Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: PTP] #102175
03/31/07 10:47 AM
03/31/07 10:47 AM
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All boats break. Certainly ours did, however it was our fault as we hadn't double welded an area that was known to be a point of failure.

I think you have to look at the overall failures, the frequency of such, and how they occurred. Point being I don't have any personal experience with the HT, but I have spoken to many that do, and almost universally they have given unfavorable accounts of it.

Of course, I'm only one ancedotal jackass <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: MauganN20] #102176
03/31/07 11:19 AM
03/31/07 11:19 AM
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All boats break. Certainly ours did, however it was our fault as we hadn't double welded an area that was known to be a point of failure.

I think you have to look at the overall failures, the frequency of such, and how they occurred. Point being I don't have any personal experience with the HT, but I have spoken to many that do, and almost universally they have given unfavorable accounts of it.

Of course, I'm only one ancedotal jackass <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Everyone I have talked to about it loves it.. and this is no amateur crowd- Murray, Lambert, Bill Vining and although I haven't talked to him personally about it, Jamie Diamond also has one.

Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: PTP] #102177
03/31/07 01:17 PM
03/31/07 01:17 PM
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Well then its horses for courses...

hope you're happy with your boat man. I certainly am with mine.

Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: MauganN20] #102178
03/31/07 02:21 PM
03/31/07 02:21 PM
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Chattanooga, TN
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I am new to sailing (and loving it!) and don't know about all the boats you are talking about. BUT I do know that a 450lb boat is TOO heavy for us (265lbs crew wt) Moving it on land is difficult (even w/cat trax) and righting it is impossible. That is one main reason we are moving to the F16.


Joanna

Blade F16
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Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: PTP] #102179
03/31/07 02:52 PM
03/31/07 02:52 PM
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Toronto, Ontario
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Didn't a lot of the guys that were going to do the worrell in the HT do a lot of reinforcing of the boat?

Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: C2 Mike] #102180
03/31/07 03:03 PM
03/31/07 03:03 PM
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North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Quote

The very fact that HT didn't take off world wide is a strong indication that having the lightest class weight is not the most important thing when building a successful class.



I for one do not think the 18HT experience says anything about how weight is valued by owners and customers.

First of all, the 18HT's were the third lightest doublehanded sailboats on the USA market when they were launched there. The 3rd and 2nd lightest doublehanders are gone and lightest design is still is still here and growing.

Secondly, the 18HT failed for other reasons that had nothing to do with it being lightish at 135 kg. I personally think it failed for much the same reasons the Taipan 5.7 failed, its predeccesor on the US market. Combined with some specific issues related to the only HT make to ever reach the US market.

Thirdly, I know from a fact that being light weight is important enough to be a critical issue in the class grow of the F16's. If we had been 150 kg or over then we would never had gotten were we are now.

The F18 class succes wasn't hampered by it being 180 kg but that weight certainly wasn't the reason why the F18 class became succesful. Meaning when it had been 150 kg its would still have been a succes maybe even more easily so.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: PTP] #102181
03/31/07 05:02 PM
03/31/07 05:02 PM
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Atlanta
bvining Offline
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Still waiting to hear anyone else who has heard of a transom getting ripped out of a HT...

I think it was only Randy's boat that did that, and subsequent Bim Ht's were reinforced in that area, so I havent heard of any other transom failures.

I've run over plenty of stuff and my transom's are fine.

Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: I20RI] #102182
03/31/07 05:27 PM
03/31/07 05:27 PM
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Atlanta
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I agree with i20 completely. The HT is hard to sail well, and too few good sailors bothered to learn how to sail the HT well. So too few good sailors embraced it. The Worrell didnt help either.

I love the HT in medium winds on a flat day. A Newport summer day, mid week, with no powerboat chop and a nice 12 knot seabreeze, the boat just sings. I love it singlehanded in 5-12 knots, especially downwind, its one of the sweetest experiences around, and I wouldnt trade it for anything.

In 18knts and gusty its a handful, and its not very forgiving. In gusty winds over 18kts takes two people who know what they are doing to make the boat go fast. WF and Matt Struble were a perfect example, they were fast, but they were BOTH good sailors.

I've had mine out in 30knts plus -sustained - and the boat was fine, its solid, the mast is solid, and hulls are solid. The daggers and rudders are the weak points. I've also had the rudders fail the first time I sailed it, so some of what is said about the rudders and leaky daggers is true.

The main reason the HT and the HT class failed in my opinion was the Worrell. If the class had grown organically and done mainly windward leeward racing it would still be in existance today. The HT wasnt designed for the Worrell and should have never been selected for that race.

Bill

Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: bvining] #102183
03/31/07 05:31 PM
03/31/07 05:31 PM
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Atlanta
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By the way, there's not reason we can get all the HT owners together do some racing.

PTP why not get some races organized?

Re: Whats up with 400 pound boats????? [Re: davidtilley] #102184
03/31/07 05:41 PM
03/31/07 05:41 PM
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Victoria, Australia
C2 Mike Offline
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With you 100%
Do not understand the F18: Why build a boat supposedly economy minded to sail predominantly windward-leward races with a jib (and spin)?
And I dont think it is p c to say it is to give the wife something to do upwind.
If it is to be user friendly,and equality not speed is the goal, I for one think centerboards (prindle 19 and 18-2) or keels are a better deal. Lots of people struggle with Daggerboards.
Explain the attraction to me. What is better about a F18 that made them sell like supposed hotcakes, while the P19MX dissapeared, and no one bought the Bim HT (AS A BOAT OR CLASS)?


By the fact that you have put (spin?) with a question mark, you obviously know little about the class. Do yourself a favor and sail one for a few hours.

Tiger Mike

Re: Whats up with 400 pound boats????? [Re: C2 Mike] #102185
03/31/07 05:46 PM
03/31/07 05:46 PM
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Charleston, SC
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Quote
With you 100%
Do not understand the F18: Why build a boat supposedly economy minded to sail predominantly windward-leward races with a jib (and spin)?
And I dont think it is p c to say it is to give the wife something to do upwind.
If it is to be user friendly,and equality not speed is the goal, I for one think centerboards (prindle 19 and 18-2) or keels are a better deal. Lots of people struggle with Daggerboards.
Explain the attraction to me. What is better about a F18 that made them sell like supposed hotcakes, while the P19MX dissapeared, and no one bought the Bim HT (AS A BOAT OR CLASS)?


By the fact that you have put (spin?) with a question mark, you obviously know little about the class. Do yourself a favor and sail one for a few hours.

Tiger Mike


By the fact that you put (spin?) (Tiger Mike), instead of (spin)?, I can tell that you know very little about thoroughly reading. Do yourself a favor and slow down before making a comment.
Think about it....

<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />


Trey
Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: bvining] #102186
03/31/07 05:50 PM
03/31/07 05:50 PM
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By the way, there's not reason we can get all the HT owners together do some racing.

PTP why not get some races organized?


We definately need to do that. I have had a great time sailing boat on boat with Murray.
Went out today, probably over 20 with at least gusts to 25. Awesome, and nothing broke. Did go over once, driver error. Jibed and rounded up too much and by the time I tried to correct.. too late. Gotta think about getting those risers... the chop does kill you.. especially with a 230lb guy on the wire behind you while driving <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

The boat feels SOOOO much more stable than the 6.0 ever did in that type of wind. It is obviously way lighter and so much more responsive. Guess I need to get on a F18 to compare.

BTW, with Me, Murray, Edderer, Guthrie (selling his though), wouldn't this be the best area to get them all together <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Last edited by PTP; 03/31/07 05:51 PM.
Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Wouter] #102187
03/31/07 05:54 PM
03/31/07 05:54 PM
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Victoria, Australia
C2 Mike Offline
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Quote

Quote

The very fact that HT didn't take off world wide is a strong indication that having the lightest class weight is not the most important thing when building a successful class.



I for one do not think the 18HT experience says anything about how weight is valued by owners and customers.

First of all, the 18HT's were the third lightest doublehanded sailboats on the USA market when they were launched there. The 3rd and 2nd lightest doublehanders are gone and lightest design is still is still here and growing.

Secondly, the 18HT failed for other reasons that had nothing to do with it being lightish at 135 kg. I personally think it failed for much the same reasons the Taipan 5.7 failed, its predeccesor on the US market. Combined with some specific issues related to the only HT make to ever reach the US market.

Thirdly, I know from a fact that being light weight is important enough to be a critical issue in the class grow of the F16's. If we had been 150 kg or over then we would never had gotten were we are now.

The F18 class succes wasn't hampered by it being 180 kg but that weight certainly wasn't the reason why the F18 class became succesful. Meaning when it had been 150 kg its would still have been a succes maybe even more easily so.

Wouter


You drew entirely the wrong conclusion from my statement. Perhaps I didn't explain myself properly. I mean for a class to succeed (or fail), boat weight (high or low)is relatively low importance compared to other characteristics and circumstances.

I think weight is only a small part of the success you are having with the F16. The overall package of flexibility and overall performance (which light weight contributes to) decide weather it will succeed or not.

Tiger Mike

Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: PTP] #102188
03/31/07 06:45 PM
03/31/07 06:45 PM
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Atlanta
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BTW, with Me, Murray, Edderer, Guthrie (selling his though), wouldn't this be the best area to get them all together


It would be the best area in Dec, Jan, Feb and March.

The rest of the year its pretty good up here and we are getting to that time of the year.

Btw, one of my personal best days ever was crewing for Mark Murray on his HT, summer day sailing of Newport in 8-10 ft hurricane swell rollers on the outside, on the way back to Sail Newport we went blasting thru a crowd of boats rafted up outside Fort Adams during the Newport Jazz fest with the spin up, the looks we got were priceless.

Bill

Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: C2 Mike] #102189
04/01/07 03:40 AM
04/01/07 03:40 AM
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Mike,

Quote

You drew entirely the wrong conclusion from my statement.


I don't think I did.


Quote

boat weight (high or low)is relatively low importance compared to other characteristics and circumstances


My line of reasoning is that without the low weight the F16 class (and possibly other classes as well) can achieve the other characteristics that you refer too. Even if people may not name lightweight as the most important point it still is critical in the flexibility of the craft and the way it feels and handles 150 kg crew weights.

This may well not hold for all classes (F18's) but for other classes it does. It all dependents on what the class targets as their projected owners.

I also feel that 18HT went after the wrong kind of crowd and that the class grew much too dependent on a single person. Think class trailer etc.

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 04/01/07 03:41 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: PTP] #102190
04/01/07 07:05 AM
04/01/07 07:05 AM
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Don't you think that you would be more likely to go sailing (recreational, training, afternoon with a couple hours to burn and the wind is nice) if you didn't have to deal with a 400lb boat? Might keep more consistent crew too if they didn't have to deal with a heavy boat all the time too.

Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: C2 Mike] #102191
04/01/07 07:43 AM
04/01/07 07:43 AM
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South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Quote


You drew entirely the wrong conclusion from my statement. Perhaps I didn't explain myself properly. I mean for a class to succeed (or fail), boat weight (high or low)is relatively low importance compared to other characteristics and circumstances.


I agree with that entirely. I find it interesting that this thread turned from an attack on heavy boats to the defense of the 18HT. I don't think there's anything wrong with the 18HT - it's just a boat designed for relatively smooth water sailing than, say, a Nacra 20.


Jake Kohl
Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Jake] #102192
04/01/07 07:47 AM
04/01/07 07:47 AM
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Quote


You drew entirely the wrong conclusion from my statement. Perhaps I didn't explain myself properly. I mean for a class to succeed (or fail), boat weight (high or low)is relatively low importance compared to other characteristics and circumstances.


I agree with that entirely. I find it interesting that this thread turned from an attack on heavy boats to the defense of the 18HT. I don't think there's anything wrong with the 18HT - it's just a boat designed for relatively smooth water sailing than, say, a Nacra 20.


Just when stupid comments like "RIP THEIR TRANSOMS OUT" come up I get defensive because people remember those type of statements but seem to forget all the other failures of all sorts of other boats. People were looking for a problem with the HT and that satisfied them despite the evidence against other boats. It gets perpetuated even though it happened once. I bet you could find a N20 that has had that happen, but no one ever mentions it. I am not trying to malign N20s, F18s or whatever, just trying to make a point that it is unfair to make that comment about the HT.

The question still stands though- why are manufacturers making such heavy boats?

Last edited by PTP; 04/01/07 07:50 AM.
Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: PTP] #102193
04/01/07 07:57 AM
04/01/07 07:57 AM
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South Carolina
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Several years ago, the Performance North Americans held on Tybee Island had some short steep 3 and 4' seas with some strong wind. I was amazed watching the daggerboard on my new F18 come clear of the water and crash sideways back into the water as we would leap from wave to trough again and again. Later one of those evenings I ran into Jack Young and asked him how they go about designing a boat that doesn't break in those conditions? His reply was something along the lines of; you do what you think, and add some more where it breaks - it takes time and experience.

400lbs leaves a large margin of error for this kind of development. Yes, you can build a lighter boat but you will have more teething problems as you work though the "add more where it breaks".


Jake Kohl
Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Jake] #102194
04/01/07 08:08 AM
04/01/07 08:08 AM
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all of this being said, I did reinforce my transoms a little. I had an early pre-worrell version (they did reinforce some areas for the worrell). It was harder to do than I thought so who knows if it actually added any strength, but I also modified the rudders into a better kick up mechanism.

Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: PTP] #102195
04/01/07 08:12 AM
04/01/07 08:12 AM
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My Nacra F17 weighs in around 320lbs. Pretty heavy for a singlehander. But, it is bulletproof . If you go lighter, you can't touch the beach, sit on it, or survive a collision on the water. That's just the way it is in the F17 class. Heavier is easier to manufacture. Lighter also means tighter tolerances, exotic materials, and higher costs; A cats. So, it's not a bad thing if it's affordable. Back in the day when the Nacra 6.0 and Hobie 20 were the thing, we couldn't complain because of class rules and factories dictating the weight of the boats. We all sailed the same thing and that was the pure fun of it! Yes, F18 could be lighter but their class rules dictate a high weight. No big deal. Why don't you buy a F18 and sail in one of the largest growing classes in NA? Or, just get into the largest growing class at this time: "A".

Enjoy!

Bob <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


"The election is over, the talking is done, Your party lost, my party won. So let us be friends, let arguments pass, I’ll hug my elephant, you kiss you’re a $$.”
Liberalism = A brain eating amoeba & a failed political ideology of the 20th century!
Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Jake] #102196
04/01/07 11:38 AM
04/01/07 11:38 AM
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What a load of crock !

I'm refering to these statements :

Quote

400lbs leaves a large margin of error for this kind of development. Yes, you can build a lighter boat but you will have more teething problems as you work though the "add more where it breaks".


Quote

My Nacra F17 weighs in around 320lbs. Pretty heavy for a singlehander. But, it is bulletproof . If you go lighter, you can't touch the beach, sit on it, or survive a collision on the water. That's just the way it is in the F17 class.



Bob, my 1974 Prindle 16 was 20 lbs lighter then your 320 lbs Inter-17 and it was a doublehander with more sailarea as well. That boat is still sailing now, over 30 years after its resin was poured.

Jake, all of a certain new F18 model all the daggerboards that were shipped to EU in the spring of 2006 broke, that was AFTER the daggerboards had become shorter and wider then the previous model of the same company. A befriended crew owning this model for about 1 week broke BOTH daggerboards at the same time and was drifting about pretty helplessly.

The most pronounced breakage of a Vectorworks Marine F16 was single daggerboard that split while sailing and a single seam that started to crack up; both were the result of insuffient wetting out of the laminate. In both cases the crews finished the (distance) race. Note how VWM is totally new to producing these sports cats while Hobie and Nacra has decades of experience and that VWM is no producing 240 lbs dependable boats while other are producing 320 and 400 lbs barges that break down significantly more often.

Now this is not intended as a pissing contest between VWM and Nacra/Hobie. This counterargument is whole intended to show that putting more weight into a design is alot less important then actually pouring some design expertise into it. How else can a newby like VWM produce a much more challenging design with quite a convincing dependability record ? And how else it is possible that my 1974 Prindle was lighter then all newer designs (like nacra 5.0 and nacra 500) that came after it ?

Being "heavy", no matter what the spin is from the company reps, is nothing more then an economically inspired choice !

And Bob, your boat isn't bullet proof by a long shot. I dare say that I can even fire my 4.5 mm (177) caliber pump action air rifle at it and puncture its hull. And I've been running up my homebuild TIMBER F16 up the beach AT SPEED for 3 years now because of the surf we often get around here. My fellow Blade F16 owners at my club do the same with their glass VWM Blade F16's. And typically every race day we sit on the hulls or bows of our boats. I think all of us have walked over our bow to the tip of the spi pole to correct a rigging mistake we made at one time. You know the one where you mistakenly wrap the tack line around the pole ones before tying it to the spi itself.

You guys are just speaking nonsense. You are both knowlegdable people but on this topic you two are just waaaaay of base.

And I'm just laughing my socks of when a carbon masted I-17 is 320 lbs while my homebuild F16 with an alu mast, more sailarea and for crying out loud even a BRIDLED jib comes in at 240 lbs and is surviving the bloody North Sea without any problems. We get wind, chop and washboard like surf conditions you guys simply won't believe. Think Texel video 2005.

And in defense of the 18HT's, at 135 kg and carbon mast without a bridled forestay these design have absolutely no reason to be fragile. If they are as a class and it is not proven that they are then it is because the individual designers made the wrong construction choices.


Quote

Or, just get into the largest growing class at this time: "A".



Bob, how do you square this with you earlier statement ? The A's are the lightest singlehanders around. 320 - 165 = 155 lbs lighter then your I-17. Going on your earlier statement, one would think that these boats break when only looking it them. Which of course is totally not the case.


Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 04/01/07 11:42 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Wouter] #102197
04/01/07 01:03 PM
04/01/07 01:03 PM
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fin. Offline
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Wouter:

If you're going to tout VWM, you need to point out that Matt is in the shop most of the time. To my mind a "working" boss gives higher quality and lower price than a "suit" that never gets his hands dirty.

I'm certain this is true in the housing industry, why wouldn't it be the same with boats?

Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: fin.] #102198
04/01/07 01:53 PM
04/01/07 01:53 PM
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Michigan
PTP Offline OP
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Adding something here- you know the SL16 weighs 335 lbs!!! Blade F16 240. Now explain that to me. New boat.. lazy manufacturer? I think the prices are probably comparable.. so whats up?

Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: fin.] #102199
04/01/07 01:53 PM
04/01/07 01:53 PM
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Bob_Curry Offline
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Darn Wout, you are a real PIA.

<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />


"The election is over, the talking is done, Your party lost, my party won. So let us be friends, let arguments pass, I’ll hug my elephant, you kiss you’re a $$.”
Liberalism = A brain eating amoeba & a failed political ideology of the 20th century!
Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Bob_Curry] #102200
04/01/07 04:23 PM
04/01/07 04:23 PM
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South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Judging by the responses, I feel I should once again applaud some of the features of this forum.

Quote
*** You are ignoring this user ***


Jake Kohl
Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: fin.] #102201
04/01/07 06:57 PM
04/01/07 06:57 PM
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Wouter Offline
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VWM was just one example of the many I could have chosen.

AHPC build over 320 Taipan 4.9's weighting in at 102 (without spi gear) and championship are still being won by 10-15 year old boats. No problems beaching these or sitting on them.

Prindle 16's have been produced at less weight then these so called modern boats for about 30 years (actually used that as an example).

Of course there are reasons why these builders could where others couldn't. Yes indeed, having the boss walking on the production floor does motivate workers into making better quality products. That is not the thing that is amazing.

The truly amazing thing in this thread is that despite considerable evidence to the contrary, some people still rationalize their boats obesity as having something to do with quality or dependability.

Now I'm not against the F18 being 180 kg or anything, I'm only against guys like Bob and Jake who make it appear that lighter boats are somehow "less" because they are not 180 kg's.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Bob_Curry] #102202
04/01/07 07:02 PM
04/01/07 07:02 PM
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Wouter Offline
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Quote

Darn Wout, you are a real PIA.



Yep, but that is still a long way off being wrong !

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Bob_Curry] #102203
04/01/07 08:17 PM
04/01/07 08:17 PM
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Thailand
Buccaneer Offline
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Quote
My Nacra F17 weighs in around 320lbs. Pretty heavy for a singlehander. But, it is bulletproof . If you go lighter, you can't touch the beach, sit on it, or survive a collision on the water. That's just the way it is in the F17 class. Heavier is easier to manufacture. Lighter also means tighter tolerances, exotic materials, and higher costs; A cats.


That's a very heavy boat when you consider the exotic materials used like carbon mast for example.. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


"House prices have risen by nearly 25 percent over the past two years. Although speculative activity has increased in some areas, at a national level these price increases largely reflect strong economic fundamentals." – Ben Bernanke – 2005
Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Buccaneer] #102204
04/01/07 08:38 PM
04/01/07 08:38 PM
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Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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Someone told me the Nacra F17 is actually 18 feet long, is that true? That might explain some of the extra weight. And I also heard you could put a jib on it and second trap. Now, other than the weight issue, how do you think it might do, two up, against the F18's? Could there be a two up F17 class? That would be nearly 80 lbs lighter than an F18.


Blade F16
#777
Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Timbo] #102205
04/01/07 09:43 PM
04/01/07 09:43 PM
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League City, TX
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Quote
Someone told me the Nacra F17 is actually 18 feet long, is that true? That might explain some of the extra weight. And I also heard you could put a jib on it and second trap. Now, other than the weight issue, how do you think it might do, two up, against the F18's? Could there be a two up F17 class? That would be nearly 80 lbs lighter than an F18.


Having sailed against a couple or F17s in the Sloop/SPI/2 Trap configuration I can confirm that it comes no where close to an F18 in performance on any point of sail.

The F17 seems to perform nicely when SPI/cat rigged and single handed.


Dave Ingram is my president. tcdyc rules
Re: Whats up with 400 pound boats????? [Re: PTP] #102206
04/01/07 09:57 PM
04/01/07 09:57 PM
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League City, TX
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Quote
Maybe this will stir things up, and I am sure it has been conquered before BUT why didn't the HT take off?


Why did it not take off in the US?

  • Hobie and Nacra went after F18 instead - so no big established brand and dealer network
  • Cat rig is less flexible than a sloop rig (think distance racing)
  • Hull shape and rear beam freeboard make the boat less forgiving and enjoyable in rough stuff than the F18 and N20 designs
  • Boat becomes a handful in big wind vs F18/N20 (tall stick, big sail, narrow beam, limited forward hull volume) - making it less attractive to ocean distance racers.

As already mentioned, great boats on a lake in the right wind conditions.

Chris.


Dave Ingram is my president. tcdyc rules
Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Timbo] #102207
04/02/07 04:19 AM
04/02/07 04:19 AM
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North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Nacra 17's are all 5.24 mtr long and so 17 feet.

The extra hull length would only explain about 3 to 5 kg extra in overall weight if the bridles are moved forward as well (higher loading requiring more reinforcements in the hull at the beam).

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: PTP] #102208
04/02/07 10:02 AM
04/02/07 10:02 AM
Joined: Sep 2005
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38.912, -95.37
_flatlander_ Offline
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Quote
Don't you think that you would be more likely to go sailing (recreational, training, afternoon with a couple hours to burn and the wind is nice) if you didn't have to deal with a 400lb boat? Might keep more consistent crew too if they didn't have to deal with a heavy boat all the time too.


Yes, most definitely.

Even though scientifically proven to be flatter than a pancake, Kansas has hills, mostly at lakes (go figure). It's been like pulling teeth trying to convince the mono boys at our developing sailing center that beach cats need a nice gentle (5%) grade to cat trax from the lot to the shore and no they're not easy to crane launch.

"We" will continue to race our 400 and 320 pound boats because that is the only racing here. But, in answer to your question, even with a 5% grade "I" can't take the 320 lb. boat to the water by myself. No brainer, hell yes I would sail more if we didn't own heavy boats. Not sure an A Class is the right boat for borderline tornado winds we have here, but a 240 pound boat is in our/my future sights.
(humph...I did'nt mention any manufacturers)


John H16, H14
Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: _flatlander_] #102209
04/03/07 06:13 PM
04/03/07 06:13 PM
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HobieZealot Offline
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Question: Whats up with 400 pound boats?

Answer: see $ 26,000 A Cat

Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: HobieZealot] #102210
04/03/07 08:05 PM
04/03/07 08:05 PM
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South Carolina
Jake Offline
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now that's about the funniest thing I've ever heard you say.


Jake Kohl
Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Bob_Curry] #102211
04/04/07 10:18 AM
04/04/07 10:18 AM
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LA
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Quote
My Nacra F17 weighs in around 320lbs. Pretty heavy for a singlehander. But, it is bulletproof . If you go lighter, you can't touch the beach, sit on it, or survive a collision on the water. That's just the way it is in the F17 class. Heavier is easier to manufacture. Lighter also means tighter tolerances, exotic materials, and higher costs; A cats. So, it's not a bad thing if it's affordable. Back in the day when the Nacra 6.0 and Hobie 20 were the thing, we couldn't complain because of class rules and factories dictating the weight of the boats. We all sailed the same thing and that was the pure fun of it! Yes, F18 could be lighter but their class rules dictate a high weight. No big deal. Why don't you buy a F18 and sail in one of the largest growing classes in NA? Or, just get into the largest growing class at this time: "A".

Enjoy!

Bob <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


Ok Bob, I'll agree with you on a couple of items but dispute you on some others.

1. I can sit on my A2 just fine. No worries.
2. I never sail any boat I own on to the beach. I always stop and get the wheels under the hulls. More seamanlike in my opinion especially if you value the finish along your hulls.
3. Collisions between 400 lb boats are just as bad as collisions between 165 lb boats. Think momentum and inertia. Much more in the heavier boats.
4. My back hurts a lot less than yours, I can get on the water much quicker, and I get around the course in about the same time as you and work a lot less.

When I bought my first P-19, I was shocked at the nationals to see not one boat weigh in even close to the class minimum weight of 385 lbs. Every boat was consistently 10-20 lbs overweight. Whether that is the case with F-18, I don't know but I would bet you found the same thing with all of the Nacras and Miracle 20's. The manufacturers did not (or do not) have tight tolerances for resin/laminate layups and you see these big variances. Being that over minimum weight is not tolerable in a lot of dinghy/keelboat classes (Snipes, Lasers, Thistles, Stars, etc) and certainly not in the A-Class.

Regarding the 18HT, I agree with Bill Vining that there is no sweeter boat in 8-15 knots of wind. It's a handful in stronger breezes but the design changes Peter Johnstone did on the Gunboat HT made the boat manageable up to 20 knots and a lot of what Peter did has been put into production on the 18HT's in Europe. In over 20 knots, the dynamics of a 34' tall rig on an 18' hull are undeniable (so I'd personally rather go windsurfing). WF and I pushed one platform for two years quite hard in a lot or racing. We broke one rudder, one daggerboard, and one rudder pintle (which when it failed crushed some of the laminate in the transom so it was a two hour rather than a one hour repair). I never saw a mast failure or problem on the Jav 2 and I credit Riba for building the best carbon mast you can buy. I agree that the class was doomed not to grow in the US because of the limitation of not having a builder or more established dealer infrastrucutre. I also think the boat got a lot of false and unfair perceptions based upon "he said/she said" gossip. I would not have wanted to sail the boat in the Worrell. That was not what it was designed for.

Bob Hodges
former F-18HT NAC
A-Class USA 230

Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Acat230] #102212
04/04/07 12:02 PM
04/04/07 12:02 PM
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MERRITTISLAND, FL
Matt M Offline
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It all depends on what you want you sailing experience to be.

If you race then you are going to want to be on the boat that is being raced in your area. If it is portsmouth, then sail what fits you. Cost is relative: if you only paid $500 for a boat, but never use it, then it was too much.

If you want or need "bullet proof" then do not get into racing catamarans. A colission is going to do damage. If you want to drag a boat over rocks and sand, you will damage the bottom of any flat bottom design, 400 lbs or not.

All boats also have limitations. If it is blowing 35+ there is no cat I would rather be out on than a H16. They are not nearly as much fun in lighter winds though. My F16 has less upwind sail than the H16 but is high aspect. has a spin and a lightweight platform. This makes it a blast to sail in pretty much all conditions until the dog goes blowing by. Sailing the 20's and 18s is fun, but a lot more work and the feel is not there. They are not appreciably faster and much less responsive. Would I want to do a Tybee on the 16 or the 20....20 hands down, but to go out and sail for an afternoon, or run around the buoys, the 16 is a lot more fun.

The other boat that keeps getting bashed is the A. I like to sail with crew. That is my only complaint about the A. There is no boat that teaches you sail like the A cat. Every adjustment crew motion etc. provides instant feedback because the boat is so light and responsive. 1 sail and light weight, it is easier to get on the water than a Wave. It is a minimalist boat with flat hull bottoms that is relatively expensive, of course you are going to try and treat it with care.

Light weight increases the cost to build but definitely improves the sailing experience. What value that has is entirely up to you.

Matt

F16-USA725
A - USA236

Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: HobieZealot] #102213
04/04/07 01:36 PM
04/04/07 01:36 PM
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Wouter Offline
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Don't let anybody convince you that the choice is limited to only two alternatives !

Question: Whats up with 400 pound boats and $ 26,000 A Cats ?

How about a 240 lbs / $ 14.000 screamer ? Lightweight like an A, robust like a 400 lbs F18 and verociously snatching at the heels of both on the water !

Formula 16 is the young punk on the block and the old geezers better start paying attention !

YEAAHHH ! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Wouter] #102214
04/04/07 02:08 PM
04/04/07 02:08 PM
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Charleston, SC
NCSUtrey Offline
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Wouter, I didn't know you were a big proponent of the F16...when did this change come about?


Trey
Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: NCSUtrey] #102215
04/04/07 05:14 PM
04/04/07 05:14 PM
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Trondheim, Norway
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The true exception is the Taipan 5.7. 5.7 meters long, 2.60 wide and 142 kgs weight fully rigged. No use of "exspensive" materials besides the kevlar reinforcement in the hulls. These specs should be the bench mark for new cat designs. AHPC designed the Taipan 5.7 in 1995, and the boat is still at the cutting edge design wise. Give it a carbon mast, a new mainsail and self-tacker and you have a boat that will match and probably out-sail most of the post 2002 cat-models, even your beloved F16 Wouter! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: jimi] #102216
04/04/07 05:54 PM
04/04/07 05:54 PM
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HobieZealot Offline
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If the F16 ever starts to take off and good sailors start to get competitive on the boats the cost will skyrocket just like in the A class. It's a development class and that is the way it goes. People started to see that potential for high cost with the 18HT and that pushed many towards the F18 in my opinion. The F18 has much tighter rules that aim at keeping costs down. If the F18 isn't cheap enough for you the racing in the H16 is just as competitive, if not more so.

Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: jimi] #102217
04/05/07 05:33 AM
04/05/07 05:33 AM
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Thailand
Buccaneer Offline
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The true exception is the Taipan 5.7. 5.7 meters long, 2.60 wide and 142 kgs weight fully rigged. No use of "exspensive" materials besides the kevlar reinforcement in the hulls. These specs should be the bench mark for new cat designs. AHPC designed the Taipan 5.7 in 1995, and the boat is still at the cutting edge design wise. Give it a carbon mast, a new mainsail and self-tacker and you have a boat that will match and probably out-sail most of the post 2002 cat-models, even your beloved F16 Wouter! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


ahead of their time... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />


"House prices have risen by nearly 25 percent over the past two years. Although speculative activity has increased in some areas, at a national level these price increases largely reflect strong economic fundamentals." – Ben Bernanke – 2005
Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: jimi] #102218
04/05/07 10:51 AM
04/05/07 10:51 AM
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Wouter Offline
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Quote

Give it a carbon mast, a new mainsail and self-tacker and you have a boat that will match and probably out-sail most of the post 2002 cat-models, even your beloved F16 Wouter!



Absolutely no doubt about that.

Actually such a platform has already been build and sailed. It is the Supertaipan by Macca and its is quick.

Back in the day I actually pushed for such a changes to the Taipan 5.7's as I excepted them to go extinct otherwise. So you will get no counterargument from me on these points.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: HobieZealot] #102219
04/05/07 11:08 AM
04/05/07 11:08 AM
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Wouter Offline
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Quote

If the F16 ever starts to take off and good sailors start to get competitive on the boats the cost will skyrocket just like in the A class. It's a development class and that is the way it goes.



I think we have already seen some of that in the F16 class. Prices have gone up on the new boats.

But I don't think the prices will sky-rocket. There is not enough expensive stuff in the F16 designs yet. Also the class rules are halveway between F18 and A-cats so that should dampen the price increases significantly as well.

As of yet it is perfectly possible to build and offer a 26.000 F16, it was always that way. But the class rules are still such that you can well be out classed on the water by a 15.000 F16 and that gives a permanent down pressure on the retail prices. None of the builders want to expose themselfs to another builder, producing a boat that is just as capable but much cheaper. Actually this contributed to the Taipan 4.9 being discontinued, it was significantly more expensive then the newly designed F16's and not better in performance.

The A-cats are unlucky in my opinion because these designs are very much depended on materials and a way of doing things that has become very expensive. Sadly for them there is no easy solution to this problem. And honestly I don't rejoice in that. There is a reason the F16 class rules decided on 240 lbs as minimum weight as that would still allow inexpensive materials to be used in an otherwise competitive boat. Several other rules were made partly with that issue in mind.

While we will see development in the F16 class and as a result see more expensive boats being offered, we'll not see skyrocketing prices as the F16 class is not an all-out development class like the A's. Of course as a payback the F16's will have to accept some drawbacks but in my experience the customers don't really value these drawback as significant. Some do, but just as many others don't. And so there is ample client base for both types, and many of thge other cat types out there.

Fair winds to you all,

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Wouter] #102220
04/05/07 10:49 PM
04/05/07 10:49 PM
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Gainesville, FL 32607 USA
dacarls Offline
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Better buy a boat now: Uncontrolled inflation in the USA is just now underway- and will continue on a massive scale.
The competition for modern materials like carbon fiber for aircraft, boats, cars- and maybe a lot else- is an indicator. Also chemical ingredients for plastic resins are climbing dramatically. Fuel to get to regattas? HAHAhahaha!
I just retired, and have seen US Dollar costs of nearly everything go up by 10X, or if you will, the present dollar is worth 10 cents of what it was in 1957 when I started working.
It ain't stopping since this inflation is all now programmed into present government/business systems. Think about how to survive in this system, and consider yourself lucky to even HAVE a boat. Sorry about the downer.....


Dacarls:
A-class USA 196, USA 21, H18, H16
"Nothing that's any good works by itself. You got to make the damn thing work"- Thomas Edison
Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: dacarls] #102221
04/06/07 01:07 AM
04/06/07 01:07 AM
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Issaquah, WA, USA
H17cat Offline
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Dave, that is why I still sail the 1986 Hobie 17 I bought in 1987. BTW it is only 340 Lbs. Retired 6 years ago. Enjoy competitive sailing at minimum costs.

Caleb Tarleton H-17 6446

Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: dacarls] #102222
04/06/07 06:50 AM
04/06/07 06:50 AM
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LA
Acat230 Offline
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Better buy a boat now: Uncontrolled inflation in the USA is just now underway- and will continue on a massive scale.
The competition for modern materials like carbon fiber for aircraft, boats, cars- and maybe a lot else- is an indicator. Also chemical ingredients for plastic resins are climbing dramatically. Fuel to get to regattas? HAHAhahaha!
I just retired, and have seen US Dollar costs of nearly everything go up by 10X, or if you will, the present dollar is worth 10 cents of what it was in 1957 when I started working.
It ain't stopping since this inflation is all now programmed into present government/business systems. Think about how to survive in this system, and consider yourself lucky to even HAVE a boat. Sorry about the downer.....


And if you think our country is bad, just check out the costs and/or standard of living in other countries. Think I'll stay in the good ole USA even with all of our "problems".

Dave, hope to see you next week at our regatta on Lake Pontchartrain. You and Chris are all lined up with housing to keep those dollars in your pocket.

God Bless America.

Bob Hodges

Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: dacarls] #102223
04/06/07 05:50 PM
04/06/07 05:50 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 5,582
“an island in the Pacifi...
hobie1616 Offline
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The competition for modern materials like carbon fiber for aircraft, boats, cars- and maybe a lot else- is an indicator. Also chemical ingredients for plastic resins are climbing dramatically.

If true, why is my Hexcel stock is still in the toilet? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />


US Sail Level 2 Instructor
US Sail Level 3 Coach
Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Bob_Curry] #102224
04/07/07 12:57 AM
04/07/07 12:57 AM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,147
Bay of Islands, NZ
W
warbird Offline
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Bay of Islands, NZ
My Taipan 4.9 is 15 years old, been bashed and crashed and treated like death by two teenagers for several years and is still strong and going.... 105 kg, fully 100lb lighter to push around the beach than the 17. I sail solo a lot and its weight was a BIG factor in selection.
Materials and bulid quality are what create strong boats and it is to be remembered the lighter the boat the less damage it can do itself when mistakes are made.
There is no reason to stay with heavy boats other than bad decisions early on in the structure of F18.
F18s are fully ten years behind the times re weight and next year that will be 11 and the year after that 12...you get what I am saying.
light is right.

Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Wouter] #102225
04/07/07 04:05 AM
04/07/07 04:05 AM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
Tornado_ALIVE Offline
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AHPC build over 320 Taipan 4.9's weighting in at 102 (without spi gear) and championship are still being won by 10-15 year old boats. No problems beaching these or sitting on them.


I personaly would not beach a 4.9 but I woudl not put an F18 through it also..... Not healthy for any boat.

Taipans were built at a very high quality compared to other cats (including Blade) with a lot of attention to detail. This comes at a price and thus you will probably find that the profit on each Taipan was no where near as high as other manufactures products. The boat was built in very small numbers and due to a number of factors including very little marketing outside OZ, a small Oz market, the price and comitment to manufacture the boat at such a high quality, I think you will find it will eventually suffer the same fate as the 5.7.


Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: HobieZealot] #102226
04/07/07 04:17 AM
04/07/07 04:17 AM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
Tornado_ALIVE Offline
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If the F16 ever starts to take off and good sailors start to get competitive on the boats the cost will skyrocket just like in the A class. It's a development class and that is the way it goes.


If the class takes off, more manufactures get involved and the quality of competition increases, then the development of hull shapes, sails and rigs will move ahead in leaps and bounds...... WHich costs $$$$ and will be past onto the consumer.

As for the price of the A Class......

AHPC was selling Auscat Flyers for the same price as the Capricorn $24,980 (Australian) for a basic boat ready to sail only... No rollers, trailer, covers ect.

There is a LOT more hardware on an F18 than an A Class. Now Gashby is producing the Geltech Flyer and I have heard the price is up to $30,000 ????? I am not sure if AHPC still produce the Auscat Flyer.

Now imagine the price of a 2 man 18 footer that is comparable to the A Class in construction. What would the price be????? $40,000 AUS ?????


Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #102227
04/07/07 04:40 AM
04/07/07 04:40 AM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
Tornado_ALIVE Offline
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Melbourne, Australia
A Class (Auscat Flyer)
Bare boat - $24,880
With most accesories w/o trailer- $29,306

F18 Capricorn
Bare boat - $25,980
With most accesories w/o trailer- $28,759

Taipan 4.9
Bare boat - $20,648
With most accesories w/o trailer - $24,044
With spinnaker kit - $26,067
Self tacking jib kit - ????


Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #102228
04/07/07 05:22 AM
04/07/07 05:22 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Quote

I personaly would not beach a 4.9 but ....



I would and I'm actually going to do just that for the 4th season in a row. As of yet I haven't had to put a new layer of glass and resin on my keels.

I sail singlehanded halve the time and I simply have no choice, I can't stop in the middle of the surf and have my boat floating around while I go get the cat tracks. I'm not running it onto the beach at full speed however and I get of quickly. The other F16's (Blades) at my club do the same.

We really have to stop perpetuating this nonsense. Beaching these boats is NOT an issue, unless you are doing it on the rocks or whatever.


Quote

The boat was built in very small numbers


Personally I think over 320 boats build is a respectable number for a design that basically was confined to the Australian market. But indeed appreciation of this may differ.


Quote

I think you will find it will eventually suffer the same fate as the 5.7.


It already is going that way although the decision to go with the times and modernize the Taipan will give it a new lease on life. If the class doesn't continue with this modernizing beyond the mainsail then this lease will only be relatively short lived. Afterall the Taipan 4.9 is no longer produced by AHPC and will be replaced by a new 16 foot design.


Quote

If the class takes off, more manufactures get involved and the quality of competition increases, then the development of hull shapes, sails and rigs will move ahead in leaps and bounds...... WHich costs $$$$ and will be past onto the consumer.



In all honesty, we are already on this path really seriously for about 2 years. Of course we had carbon masts in the class from the very beginning and the same can be said for squaretops and such. Both the Stealth and Blade designs have seen several construction improvements over the last years. Stiffness for the Stealth was always high and the Blade has increased platform stiffness by a factor of 3 since the first prototype. Landenberger, Glaser, Goodall Ullman and Ashby are continiously refining the sail designs. Both the Stealth and Blade design have gotten new daggerboard and rudder designs, where the use of carbon has become standard. I don't know anybody in the last 3 years who has ordered dacron sails. Stealth has gotten a new bow section 3 years ago and the Blade hull was refined last year with new improved beam landings and stiffening devices inside the hull. New beams were incorporated. And so on ....

Still, despite these developments I can order a fully rigged and locally delivered new Blade F16 today for 14.165 Euro (incl EU taxes etc) and a new carbon masted Stealth F16 for 14.084 Euro (incl EU taxes etc). A carbon mast upgrade to the Blade costs about 1500 Euro's extra. (tot = 15.665 Euro delivered, fully fitted incl. EU taxes). These quoted were checked out yesterday.

By comparison in the EU the SL16 is roughly 12.500 - 13.500 (although it quotes do vary ALOT), the FX-one is about 14.500 when fully fitted, the A-cats are between 16.000 and 20.000 Euros and F18's go between 16.500 - 20.000 when race ready. The Hobie 16 price is a well guarded secret (why ?) but when I got my hands on a full price listing in summer 2005 the Hobie 16 le race was 13.500 Euro's (incl taxes but WITHOUT things like a spinnaker, pentex sails and full harken fit-out).

I, for one am pleasantly surprised how the F16 retail prices has stayed as low as they are despite the developments and the upper level quality of the components that they're are fitted with. The 2007 formula 16 boats are easily worth 15.000 Euro's and more. Afterall, what do the F18's got that the F16 don't ? ... ohhh of course, I forgot, 70 kgs (155 lbs) and a 1500 Euro higher retail price. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

But seriously, So much room for new development is no longer left in the F16 class. The big hits have already been made (like carbon masts, kevlar hulls, etc).

I fully expect the F16 retail prices to rise, again these 2007 boats are easily worth 15.000 or more. At some point the dealors will want to see a larger return of investment. If I had the money then I would order a new F16 right now, while the retail prices are so low. I mean, 14.085 or 15.665 Euro's for a carbon masted F16 with the newest rigging and daggerboard/rudder design ? Tough choice !

No way a standard Taipan 4.9 can beat that, even with the new mainsail design they have voted in for 2009. This boat (with spinnaker added) was already 16.000 euro in 2005 and it still lacks the upgrades like a new daggerboards and carbon mast.

Surprisingly enough the F16's despite the developments, additions and improvements in speed are actually CHEAPER to purchase then the standard Taipan 4.9 was.

Maybe in the future somebody will make a "Gunboat" version of some F16, costing 20.000 Euro's or more but it won't be significantly better then a 14.000 Euro production F16. Simply put, where would the improvement come from ?

For the other area's in the world, like USA and Aus, the quoted prices for all the named boats will differ but relatively speaking the same situations holds. The only real exception is the Hobie 16 which for some reason is much cheaper in the USA then on other continents.

End of my rant,

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 04/07/07 05:30 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #102229
04/07/07 05:35 AM
04/07/07 05:35 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Wouter  Offline
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North-West Europe

Stephen,

The Taipan 4.9 is no longer produced.

But indeed the Taipan 4.9 upgraded to an F16 was always an expensive offer.

AHPC's replacement of the Taipan is the Viper F16 and it is projected at 19.500 Aus when fully fitted with everything that a F16 sailor would want. Spinnaker, selftacker, pentex etc.

Blade F16 (Australian produced) is going for the same retail price when equally fitted out.

Tailers are not included in this.

(now I'm going off and try to do some landyachting !)

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 04/07/07 05:37 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Wouter] #102230
04/07/07 07:12 AM
04/07/07 07:12 AM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
Tornado_ALIVE Offline
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Quote

Stephen,

The Taipan 4.9 is no longer produced.


I have not been following the 4.9s closely, however have heard that there is a shipment of 4.9 hulls arriving in Oz soon for fitout..... Indicating the hulls are now built off shore probably along side the Capricorns.


Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #102231
04/07/07 08:06 AM
04/07/07 08:06 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
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North-West Europe
Quote

I have not been following the 4.9s closely, however have heard that there is a shipment of 4.9 hulls arriving in Oz soon for fitout..... Indicating the hulls are now built off shore probably along side the Capricorns.



I think the hulls referred to are these :

http://www.catsailor.com/bb_files/103936-AHPC_Viper_F16_artist_impression_medium.jpg

Greg send me this drawing as he did with several other 16 foot enthousiasts. As far as I was told , the Taipan moulds are still in Australia and in the possession of Jim Boyer who has sold off his tooling and ended his company Boyer Fibrecraft. AHPC continues as a company with the Capricorn and the Tool A-cat as well their new 16 footer, but she has no access to the Taipan moulds. The new 16 footer is expected to be launched this summer at the F16 zandvoor event. And indeed it is being build off-shore, but not at the same place/company as the capricorn.

AHPC will continue to support the Taipan sailors with parts and sails of course. In his announcement on the Taipan forum Jim himself mentioned that with sufficient customers a batch of new taipans could be build if this group of buyers would find a skilled builder to take on the task. In effect he would lend out the moulds and probably advice on the production. But personally I don't fancy the chances of this happening. Afterall the Taipan was never cheap and one-off batch production will only add costs.

Again, I have clearance from Greg to say in public that the new 16 footer by AHPC, the Viper F16, is aimed at retailling for 14.250 euro In Europe and 19.500 AUD in Australia. The US price will be accordingly. Naturally this is the fully-fitted-ready-to-sail price.


Wouter

(darn ! landyachting not working out for me today)

Attached Files
Last edited by Wouter; 04/07/07 08:20 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Wouter] #102232
04/07/07 05:06 PM
04/07/07 05:06 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 337
Victoria, Australia
C2 Mike Offline
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C2 Mike  Offline
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Victoria, Australia
Quote

AHPC will continue to support the Taipan sailors with parts and sails of course. In his announcement on the Taipan forum Jim himself mentioned that with sufficient customers a batch of new taipans could be build if this group of buyers would find a skilled builder to take on the task. In effect he would lend out the moulds and probably advice on the production. But personally I don't fancy the chances of this happening. Afterall the Taipan was never cheap and one-off batch production will only add costs.


There is at least 1 boat builder looking into building 4.9's for small production runs in Australia. No final decision has been made yet though. AHPC are capable of getting batches of hulls built off shore as of now if there is demand.

Tiger Mike

Re: Whats up with 400 pound boats????? [Re: PTP] #102233
04/07/07 07:37 PM
04/07/07 07:37 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 576
BobG Offline
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You have got to be the biggest loser on this forum since the old forum dayz! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Re: Whats up with 400 pound boats????? [Re: BobG] #102234
04/07/07 08:23 PM
04/07/07 08:23 PM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,479
Thailand
Buccaneer Offline
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Buccaneer  Offline
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Thailand
If the Taipan hulls aren’t available then is it not possible to fit one out with a new set of Blade hulls? How much for a set of hulls for the blade anyway? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


"House prices have risen by nearly 25 percent over the past two years. Although speculative activity has increased in some areas, at a national level these price increases largely reflect strong economic fundamentals." – Ben Bernanke – 2005
Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: _flatlander_] #102235
04/08/07 05:56 AM
04/08/07 05:56 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 953
Western Australia
Stewart Offline
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Stewart  Offline
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Western Australia
answer.. switch to an 18teen foot skiff... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: HobieZealot] #102236
04/08/07 06:06 AM
04/08/07 06:06 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 953
Western Australia
Stewart Offline
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Stewart  Offline
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Western Australia
what a lot of bull pats!

The F16 can easily be home built well under weight. Well under cost of a dinasaur..

I race a F16 homebuilt that is exciting and enjoyable in the 20+ kiot winds we get here..
My son is starting to race with me and its only the "wow" factor that keep him going.. Frankly if I had to choose a F18 or H16 we would go back to a skiff to get that "wow" factor...

Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Timbo] #102237
04/08/07 07:07 AM
04/08/07 07:07 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 953
Western Australia
Stewart Offline
old hand
Stewart  Offline
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Posts: 953
Western Australia
Actually till the last few years there werent any builders in USA who had the skill set to build a HT..

Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: PTP] #102238
04/08/07 07:15 AM
04/08/07 07:15 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 953
Western Australia
Stewart Offline
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Stewart  Offline
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Western Australia
one is by an Aussie designer.. (Who is steeped in tortured ply lightweight platforms)
the other isnt!

Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: HobieZealot] #102239
04/08/07 07:24 AM
04/08/07 07:24 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 953
Western Australia
Stewart Offline
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Stewart  Offline
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Western Australia
notice hulls are kevlar!..
beams and mast carbon..

Now why cant Hobie with its bulk ordering do this at a cheaper price?
Because they dont want to?
Becaue they cant?
They know hobie buyers wouldnt understand?

I think that the cost has a lot to do with small run, mold costs and design costs.. Not the materials.. No excuse for Hobie though with its marketing machine and production facilities

Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Stewart] #102240
04/08/07 07:31 AM
04/08/07 07:31 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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Timbo  Offline
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Sebring, Florida.
The last I heard, Hobie makes quite a bit more money selling it's kyacks than cats. Maybe they just are not interested in developing -cutting edge- racing cats. The few they would sell would not cover the cost of the R+D, production, etc.
I was surprized when Performance (Nacra/Inter) decided to build the A cats and now the SL 16. Happy, but surprized.


Blade F16
#777
Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Timbo] #102241
04/08/07 09:04 AM
04/08/07 09:04 AM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 395
LA
Acat230 Offline
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Acat230  Offline
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Quote
The last I heard, Hobie makes quite a bit more money selling it's kyacks than cats. Maybe they just are not interested in developing -cutting edge- racing cats. The few they would sell would not cover the cost of the R+D, production, etc.
I was surprized when Performance (Nacra/Inter) decided to build the A cats and now the SL 16. Happy, but surprized.


Performance Catamaran does not build A-Cats. They assemble the parts and market/sell the final product. The manufacturers of the A3 components are as follows:

Hulls and foils - Morelli and Melvin
Beams - NZ subcontractor (managed by Morelli and Melvin)
Mast - Hall
Boom - Peformance Catamaran (spec'd by Morelli and Melvin)
Trampoline - Glaser
Sail (if purchased) - Glaser
Standing rigging - Proctor Spars (California)
Running rigging - Performance Catamaran

Everyone should understand that A-Cats (and in general hi-tech state of the art catamarans) are not good profit making undertakings. Pete Melvin justifies the A3 part of his business because he has a passion for the boat and because his company learns a lot about design and construction that can be applied to his general business. The partnership with Performance Catamaran is to provide an existing infrastructure to market and distribute the boat and still make a profit for both parties.

There have been some issues with the boat and speaking as an owner of an A2, we make Pete aware of these issues. Some are related to design and construction. Pete and Gino Morelli have been very proactive addressing these issues. Some issues are related to quality control and that is a tougher challenge because it is related to maintaining the proper skill level required to build and assemble the boats. This is an ongoing issue that Pete is addressing and we all hope he can continue to work with Performance Catamaran to produce a boat that potential and current A-Class sailors will support.

Bob Hodges

Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Wouter] #102242
04/08/07 02:49 PM
04/08/07 02:49 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 285
C
Catfan Offline
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Catfan  Offline
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I do not know if Wouter purposely omitted to mention the prices of BIMARE boats (they can be easily found on the Web)or if he simply forgot that the Italian boatyard is building an excellent, although not class legal F16, together with a competitive A class.
Anyway these are the retail quotations in the EU (VAT included):
Javelin 16 - carbon mast - hooter EUR 10.450 (some EUR 4.000 less than its closest concurrent);
XJ A cat EUR 14.810;
X-4 F18 - in full racing trim - EUR 14.905

NO FURTHER COMMENT!

Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Catfan] #102243
04/08/07 04:04 PM
04/08/07 04:04 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
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North-West Europe

Quote

... purposely omitted to mention the prices of BIMARE boats ...


Well, I'm not out to "get" Bimare and it was not a concious decision on my part to "exclude" them.

But indeed the Bimare Javelin 16 is on the backburning in my mind. Pretty much because I don't know of any agent/dealer that handles these boats. As far as I know a customer has to pick up the boat himself at the factory in Italy, of course this is also reflected in the quoted price. Shipping boats does add costs and sometimes alot of costs. I know of no-one who has bought this Jav 16. This is not to say that they are not sold, only that from my perspective the jav 16 activity is absent.

Also, I personally don't know of any organisation that imports these boats to other area's outside of Europe.

As you say the javelin 16 is not F16 class legal and without having its own class structure the Jav. 16 is basically an unsupported boat. It doesn't even have a rating number in any of the major handicap system. There are tens of other designs that are in a similar situation but it serves no purpose to name all these in threads like this.

For very much similar reasons I'm also not quoting other designs like the mosquito, cheshire cat, isotope or the unicorn. They do exist and people sail them but they are too small as an individual class and without an active international scene to warrant being included in this particular discussions. At least that is my opinion.

It is just not practical to name all designs out there, so I choose to concentrate on the most likely candidates.

But having said all this I also admit that I'm doing promo work for the F16 class and not for some unrelated class. If that class wants to be noticed then they themselfs need to do "the work". That is how the game is played.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Catfan] #102244
04/08/07 04:21 PM
04/08/07 04:21 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528
Looking for a Job, I got credi...
scooby_simon Offline
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
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Looking for a Job, I got credi...
Quote
..... is building an excellent, although not class legal F16, together with a competitive A class.
Anyway these are the retail quotations in the EU (VAT included):
Javelin 16 - carbon mast - hooter EUR 10.450 (some EUR 4.000 less than its closest concurrent);

NO FURTHER COMMENT!


Catfan,

Are you comparing a non F16 and an F16 price, don't undertstand that comment. Please explain how you can compare the price of a F16 with what I assume is the Jav 16 foot boat.

Also please can you chek the prices of other boats.

Stealth offer a single handed F16 at 7150GBP which at todays rate on the BBC is 10506.21 EUR, or a 2 up boat at 7950GBP which is 11681.73 EUR.

So which F16 are you using as your closest ?


F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD

I also talk sport here
Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Wouter] #102245
04/09/07 01:16 AM
04/09/07 01:16 AM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 461
Victoria, Oztralia
mattaipan Offline
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mattaipan  Offline
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Victoria, Oztralia
Hi All

The Taipan 4.9 is still being produced, if you order one, you can get one.

The price of the Taipan, is set to come down, although we have been told this may take 6 months, to come in affect.

There are a few people that have sold or are selling their current boats to upgrade to newer boats, which in turn has opened up the secondhand market again.

Just back from a very successful Western Victorian Easter Regatta, with a couple I think 3 or 4 Taipans sailing as F16 and 4 or 5 sailing as either cat or sloop Taipans.

Regards


Matt Harper Homebuilt Taipan 4.9 AUS 329 'GOT WOOD' SEEDY PIRATES RACING TEAM
Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: mattaipan] #102246
04/09/07 01:45 AM
04/09/07 01:45 AM
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Tornado_ALIVE Offline
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Thanks Matt, that confirms what I have heard.

I am looking for a second hand 4.9 for a mate and was told the market was about to open up again with new boats on order / sold, but waiting on the arrival of the new hulls.


Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #102247
04/09/07 03:26 AM
04/09/07 03:26 AM
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Victoria, Oztralia
mattaipan Offline
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No Worries

The secondhand market can't seem to keep up at the moment, which can be good or bad I suppose, depends which side of the coin your on.

Some looking for sloops, some for sloop with kite and a few looking for cat rigs, so good mix all round.

Regards


Matt Harper Homebuilt Taipan 4.9 AUS 329 'GOT WOOD' SEEDY PIRATES RACING TEAM
Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: scooby_simon] #102248
04/09/07 03:32 AM
04/09/07 03:32 AM
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Wouter Offline
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scooby,

Quote

So which F16 are you using as your closest ?



He is using my quotes as a comparison and I always quote the most complete boats when discussing the F16's. I hate it when somebody says that a certain boat cost such and such only to find out afterwards that this doesn't include a jib, selftacker, (pentex) sails, second set of trapezes, shipping, delivery etc. Sadly alot of boat builders do business that way, from Marstrom, never includes the sails, to Hobie where even the second set of trapezes is considered an EXTRA !

Basically I quote the prices of the race-ready (as seen in the pics, sailed by Matt himself) price of the F16's, both Stealth, Blades and future Viper F16. If one would loose the jib and selfacker, the shipping costs and some other stuff then the named F16's and Jav-16 will be quite close to one-another in "price". This is of course reflected by your statement, Scooby.


Quote

Stealth offer a single handed F16 at 7150GBP which at todays rate on the BBC is 10506.21 EUR, or a 2 up boat at 7950GBP which is 11681.73 EUR.



So I guess I'm to blame for catfan using a high quote of the Stealth F16. But then again that quote will get you in front of the fleet as a fully fitted out sloop doublehander.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: mattaipan] #102249
04/09/07 03:34 AM
04/09/07 03:34 AM
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Wouter Offline
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Matt,

Who is producing the Taipan hulls ?


And Stephen, is it not time to loose your F18 worlds 2007 banner ?

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 04/09/07 03:43 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Wouter] #102250
04/09/07 03:54 AM
04/09/07 03:54 AM
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Victoria, Oztralia
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Hi All

I am uncertain of a name, however from what I can gather it is an ex-employee of Boyers, but not Todd at Geltec. When wanting to order hulls or foils I believe you still contact Jim Boyer and the process begins.

The above information I am not 100% sure on, but I am sure that if you want a new boat, you contact Jim, and you will recieve.

Regards

Regards


Matt Harper Homebuilt Taipan 4.9 AUS 329 'GOT WOOD' SEEDY PIRATES RACING TEAM
Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: mattaipan] #102251
04/09/07 04:07 AM
04/09/07 04:07 AM
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Wouter Offline
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This seems to be exactly what Jim announced at 11 feb 2006, but I interprete it as requiring a group order of at least several boats in one go or the one-off production run will run up the costs beyond what the Taipan already costed (and it was never cheap)

This also links in with my earlier comments and the talks I had with AHPC. If the situation is different then what I was told then I would love to know. Afterall, there is no point in me telling things that are not true.


source : http://www.catsailor.com/forums/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Number=88886&page=

******************* the announcement **************************

Hi all,

Just a quick note to confirm any rumors.

Boyer fibrecraft ceased manufacturing in Australia last friday. That does not mean I'm gone, just different. I'm still involved with the F18 and are still able to source parts. I doubt I will be sailing again for some time though, I just need to be away from that for a while.

So whats happened.

My foils have been taken over by one of my employees, and I can still supply these for you.

The tool A class hulls have been taken over by Mobile Fibreglass in Bendigo (another of my ex employees) These were not my moulds, Wayne Mercer owns them and you can contact him on 03 59 889 794 for further info.

I have not passed the Taipan moulds to anyone at the moment, though there are 3 businesses in Bendigo that are able to do the job. I will retain ownership of the moulds. I also have the older Taipan mould overseas, but that would require a large order to be economic. Gordon Barrett 9561 3335 can supply info on this.

My equipments has mostly being sold, and I've got a few spare A class, tornado and mosquito moulds for sale.

I have 2 new business ideas to follow, one is in the grey water industry- I'm hoping to have a spot on the new inventers in Feb, and the second is in the fibreglass/ boat building industry.
I will put more info on these on my website in January, in the mean time I'm having a bit of time off.

My phone number will remain as 03 5447 7700 and my email is now boyerfib(at)aapt.net.au or from Jan 1 jim(at)boyer.com.au

Best wishes to all.

Jim Boyer

************************* end of announcement ******************


Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 04/09/07 04:13 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Wouter] #102252
04/09/07 04:17 AM
04/09/07 04:17 AM
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Victoria, Oztralia
mattaipan Offline
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I think that the 'several' required was/is refering to the overseas mould.

I'm just trying make clear that I'm not 100% sure of the process of obtaining a new set of hulls, because I'm not looking to, but have been told that if I were to order one there is no problems.

There has already been a boat sold, to make way for a new set of hulls, and have been told the price will be coming down, which may make it more attractive to those wishing to do the same.

Regards


Matt Harper Homebuilt Taipan 4.9 AUS 329 'GOT WOOD' SEEDY PIRATES RACING TEAM
Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: mattaipan] #102253
04/09/07 04:24 AM
04/09/07 04:24 AM
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Wouter Offline
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Alright Thanks,

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Wouter] #102254
04/09/07 01:11 PM
04/09/07 01:11 PM
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Catfan Offline
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Sorry Wouter
again you showed not to be well informed about BIMARE.
First of all BIMARE has quite a large dealer network in Europe: it is directly represented in Switzerland, Austria, Germany (two dealers for North and South G.), Danmark, Spain and the United Kingdom.
The quotations I provided are not ex factory, but ex Barcelona (Spain), then shipping is INCLUDED.
Now let me add a though.
Apparently the Dutch dealer of Stealthmarine charges much more than the Spanish dealer of BIMARE:
on the other side of the English Channel the same Stealth F16 is some EUR 2.000 more expensive !!!

Re: Whats up with 400 pound boats????? [Re: PTP] #102255
04/09/07 01:45 PM
04/09/07 01:45 PM
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Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Mary Offline
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Personally, I don't understand what is wrong with 400-pound boats. Rick and I sailed our Hobie 18 for almost 15 years and never had any problem whatsoever moving it around on the land -- that's what beach wheels are for. And once it is in the water, what difference does the weght make if you are racing one-design?

I just figure lightweight boats appeal to singlehanders who don't have a crew to help them get their boat in and out of the water.

Re: Whats up with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Mary] #102256
04/09/07 02:07 PM
04/09/07 02:07 PM
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Gainesville, FL 32607 USA
dacarls Offline
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My 66 year-old back says, "Thank you very much" evry time I have to lift and move my A-class cat by myself!
My wife quit sailing with me 11 years ago because of having to lift and move 440 pound big Hobies, then having to go to a chiropractor to get straightened: we decided to NEVER lift the Hobie unless there were 8 lifting volunteers. 6 was too few and causes damage among the old folks.


Dacarls:
A-class USA 196, USA 21, H18, H16
"Nothing that's any good works by itself. You got to make the damn thing work"- Thomas Edison
Re: Whats up with 400 pound boats????? [Re: dacarls] #102257
04/09/07 02:35 PM
04/09/07 02:35 PM
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West coast of Norway
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Do we get bonus points for having _carried_ our first Tornado to and from the ramp the first times we sailed it? Boat weighet app. 200kgs, and we both was very happy when we got it on wheels! (No other cats around then, and we did not know anything at all about cats). Today it's a story we can laugh of, but even on beach wheels the 200kg boat was a beast to retrieve after sailing.

About the Bimare. Except for mast height, why dont it measure in to the F-16 formula? I checked the danish resellers pages, and the 16 footer was not listed there. Is it still buildt and is the price valid?

Re: Whats up with 400 pound boats????? [Re: dacarls] #102258
04/09/07 02:36 PM
04/09/07 02:36 PM
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Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Mary Offline
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Why would you ever have to LIFT it? -- unless you were double-stacking or something?

Re: Whats up with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Mary] #102259
04/09/07 02:45 PM
04/09/07 02:45 PM
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West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
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Becouse it took us some time to re-invent beachwheels, and we wanted to sail the beast we had rebuildt? As I said, we can laugh a lot of this story (and all the others, and there are a lot of them), but we basically had to learn everything by ourself as there was nobody to learn from. You should have seen us dragging that boat along supported by ropes over our necks.. There was nothing wrong with the motivation!

Sorry about the hijack.

Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Catfan] #102260
04/09/07 02:48 PM
04/09/07 02:48 PM
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Wouter Offline
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Quote

Sorry Wouter
again you showed not to be well informed about BIMARE.


Indeed, that is the reason why I wrote that I PERSONALLY don't know of any BIM agents and dealors.


Quote

First of all BIMARE has quite a large dealer network in Europe: it is directly represented in Switzerland, Austria, Germany (two dealers for North and South G.), Danmark, Spain and the United Kingdom.


This can well be, but I never seen any webpages, advertisement or even any mentioning of these dealors or agents and I do keep an eye out for such things. Truthful or not, this is what I know about Bim boats. As the bim website relocates every couple of months I also stopped checking that.

As I wrote earlier , it was not a concious decision not to name the Bims. It is just a builder that is very unknown and under represented in the areas were I keep track of these things. As far as I'm aware the "large dealor network" of Bim is pretty much the area around the Alps. But then again I really don't know because it is never discussed in the scene where I move. The same can be said about the Ventilo boats.

In effect I fully admit being uninformed about Bims.

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 04/09/07 03:02 PM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Whats up with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #102261
04/09/07 02:51 PM
04/09/07 02:51 PM
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Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Mary Offline
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Sorry, Rolf. I was answering Dave.

On the other hand, my family's first catamaran was a Shark, which was probably 600 pounds, and weight was never a problem, because we always launched either from a ramp or from a hoist. Nobody ever had to lift anything.

It was not until we got into beach cats, with people launching from a beach, that boat weight seemed to become a problem. And people weight, too. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Re: Whats up with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Mary] #102262
04/09/07 04:13 PM
04/09/07 04:13 PM
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Bay of Islands, NZ
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warbird Offline
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Mary, it is a basic thing. I used to love the old 65 Chev I learnt to drive in....but...While I would love a brand new one I would not want the manufacturer not to take advantage of basic tech advances made in the last 40 years....light is right.

Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: mattaipan] #102263
04/09/07 10:38 PM
04/09/07 10:38 PM
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Thailand
Buccaneer Offline
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This is good news. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> What is jim's email address?
Thanks,

Quote
Hi All

The Taipan 4.9 is still being produced, if you order one, you can get one.

The price of the Taipan, is set to come down, although we have been told this may take 6 months, to come in affect.

There are a few people that have sold or are selling their current boats to upgrade to newer boats, which in turn has opened up the secondhand market again.

Just back from a very successful Western Victorian Easter Regatta, with a couple I think 3 or 4 Taipans sailing as F16 and 4 or 5 sailing as either cat or sloop Taipans.

Regards


"House prices have risen by nearly 25 percent over the past two years. Although speculative activity has increased in some areas, at a national level these price increases largely reflect strong economic fundamentals." – Ben Bernanke – 2005
Re: Whats up with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #102264
04/10/07 03:39 AM
04/10/07 03:39 AM
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Rolf
to respond to yr questions:
1) the Javelin 16 is still on production (see BIMARE web page: www.bimare.net);
2) the quotation provided is valid;
3) the Javelin 16 is basically an unirig F16 (the sloop version is not offered).
It does not comply with with the F16 rule for:
1) its mast height (9,00 m instead of 8,50 m);
2) its gennaker (hooter) whose SMG is < 75% SF.
Other measurements are not at F16 HP limit:
for istance width is 2,25 m and mast and mainsail surface is 14,00 sq (instead of respectively 2,50 m and 15,00 sq).
In overall I would say that the Javelin 16 is better suited for solo sailing than a full compliant F16 HP (the furling gennaker makes life much easier).
As a consequence it should be much faster close to the wind al least until its "Code 0" can be unfurled.

Re: Whats up with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Catfan] #102265
04/10/07 05:03 AM
04/10/07 05:03 AM
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Wouter Offline
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And the website specifies that the boat is underweight for F16 sailing. However of a few Bims that I've seen the measurement data from, the weight is F16 compliant. Saying it weights such and such and actually being that are two seperate things in most beach cat classes.

With regard to speed comparisons, well, we just don't have much real life data. The only two times the Bim 16's and F16's met on the water was in 2001 in the USA and in 2005 in the Netherlands.

The first was a tie and the F16 was a standard Taipan 4.9 with an aftermarket spinnaker. Since then the sail area of the F16 has been increased and the shape has been much change. Also the standard Taipan is more narrow then a full F16. Mark Schneider sailed the Bim and Kirt Simmons sailed the Taipan. I think Mark won that match.

In 2005 we say a doublehanded Stealth F16 match up to a doublehanded Bim 16 and the Stealth F16 crew won that.

I have no data at all involving the javelin 16 design, only the Bim 16 predecessor.

Personally I feel that the larger width, larger mainsail area, shorter mast and not having a rolled-up hooter in front will favour the singlehanded F16 over the Javelin 16, especially when going upwind. But then again this is just my personal feeling as I have never seen the javelin 16 race an F16 directly (or any other boat for that matter). Personally I don't have any issues with the gennaker on the F16.

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't that Javelin 16 hooter not smaller in area then the F16 spi as well ? I thought it was something like 13 to 15 sq. mtr. against the 17.5 sq.mtr of the F16

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 04/10/07 05:05 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Whats up with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Wouter] #102266
04/10/07 05:39 AM
04/10/07 05:39 AM
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Wouter
actually the Javelin 16 has nothing in common with the Bim 16.
The hulls are radically different:
they are not only inspired to the wave percing concept, but also are much higher and "fatter".
With regard to the weight the latest version is indicated at 110 Kg.
The hooter is in the 13-15 sqm range as you stated

Re: Whats up with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Catfan] #102267
04/10/07 07:10 AM
04/10/07 07:10 AM
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Thailand
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Nice I’d love to try one. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> The furling hooter is an interesting concept and easier to deploy then a spi. Higher aspect and less beam then the
f16 (closer to A-cat) but why did they go with only 14,00 sq of mainsail instead of 15,00 (in which case it would perhaps be faster then the F16 at the same price)?


"House prices have risen by nearly 25 percent over the past two years. Although speculative activity has increased in some areas, at a national level these price increases largely reflect strong economic fundamentals." – Ben Bernanke – 2005
Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: MauganN20] #102268
04/10/07 05:44 PM
04/10/07 05:44 PM
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Ft. Pierce, Fl. USA
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The bottom line is that the cat sailors with their 400# boats have exactly what they want and deserve. The real truth comes out by what you open and close your wallet for. There is no desire for more performance; they tie the hands of anyone who wants to build a better performing boat with a laundry list of rules that limit boat design/construction to the status quo. Claiming that the rules are in place to make racing more “fair”. In reality it is fear driven…the fear that the 400# behemoth they bought will be rendered obsolete by some mythical space age miracle design …you know the one they always talk about ruining cat sailing by using Kevlar, or Carbon or anything other than the same old low tech stuff that has been around since the original Hobie 14.

The manufactures are more than happy to give you a cheaper built, heavier boat for the same money if that’s what you want....In the 400# boat climate there is no incentive for them to improve the product. It has been said that “One gets what one puts up with”

I think it will play out like the Israelites in the Old testament when their spies came back saying there were Giants in the land that God had promised them…and they were made to walk around in the desert for 40 years until that particular generation with no vision for the future died off …and a new generation with some faith and enthusiasm rose to leadership.

It will be interesting to see what will happen in 10 years of the classes that now exist.
I will be quite surprised if the foward thinking F-16 class… that is the tormented red headed stepchild of today… doesn’t grow to dominate the Cat sailing scene a decade from now…and all the new sailors will be sitting around laughing at the idea that their Parents/Grandparents put themselves thru hell fighting a 400# beach cat on and off the water…when it could have been built 80 to 100lbs lighter, except for their stubborn insistence to adhere to an arbitrary weight.

Regards,
Bob

Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Seeker] #102269
04/10/07 08:13 PM
04/10/07 08:13 PM
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Hey Bob, I kinda take offense, there. I bought a boat in a class where there is really good competition and some great people. I don't know your situation, but I frequently move my F18 around by myself - and I'm not a big guy.

Your point about the F16 class growing may be on target, and I can guarantee that if the racing is there someday, then I will be, too. Right now I have a gorgeous, extremely well-made boat that gets me class racing wherever I go. Just as you say, that is exactly what I want and deserve - but I don't say that with a sneer as you seem to. I've been abstaining from posting, but this thread has gotten absurd.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Seeker] #102270
04/10/07 08:18 PM
04/10/07 08:18 PM
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Toronto, Ontario
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You know this is a bunch of bs. yes sure weight is related to cost but the f18 weight was deliberately designed with the thought of keeping the cost of the boats down, and also so that anyone could home build one if they wanted to. If f18s were prepreg carbon with carbon masts bla bla bla then the cost would be a lot higher and there would be a hell of a lot less sailors in the class. The f18s of today could probably shed 50 lbs easily enough but why wreck the class? The f16 class has the opportunity to bring a lighter boat in and good for them..nothing wrong with that, but the f18 class weight was formed around the thinking of the day. the NEXT big thing (HT, M20, eagle 20?) can reduce their class weight whatever to they think the masses can afford. 400lb beach cats really aren't a problem to move around with 2 people who are in shape. Hell I was launching and retrieving my Nacra 6.0 (420lbs) by myself up a soft sand beach. not easy but I only had to go 20 feet. So don't blame the manufacturers.

Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: John Williams] #102271
04/10/07 08:50 PM
04/10/07 08:50 PM
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Michigan
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Quote
Hey Bob, I kinda take offense, there. I bought a boat in a class where there is really good competition and some great people. I don't know your situation, but I frequently move my F18 around by myself - and I'm not a big guy.

Your point about the F16 class growing may be on target, and I can guarantee that if the racing is there someday, then I will be, too. Right now I have a gorgeous, extremely well-made boat that gets me class racing wherever I go. Just as you say, that is exactly what I want and deserve - but I don't say that with a sneer as you seem to. I've been abstaining from posting, but this thread has gotten absurd.


I poked around JW's boat at Perf Midwinters and it is clearly a very well made boat... very solid.
My point in posting this to start with is just what is behind the reasoning for modern boats to weigh so much. I did not intend to try to diminish any other boats or classes (although the gloves come off when someone starts throwing generalizations about the HT around).
My friend and I chose the HT because it was light and easy to deal with. He can sail with his kids and not have to worry too much about righting it, getting it into the water off the beach and out of the water onto the beach. It would have been nice if there were more boats in that "class" to race against. If the min weight in the F18 class were 75lbs lighter then I think it would have been a no brainer and then we would have a better time racing.
(someone will bring up the F16 issue, but there just aren't any reasonably priced used F16s around.. not many used F18s in my price range around either I guess).

In the end, if you have someone to help you move the baot around the lifting can be done and in truth I am sure it would be more fun racing against boats exaclty like mine than in open class where DPNs are taken into account and we know how goofy that can get. Obviously the F18 class is very popular but maybe could benefit from switching to diet coke.

Last edited by PTP; 04/10/07 08:58 PM.
Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: pitchpoledave] #102272
04/10/07 09:33 PM
04/10/07 09:33 PM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,479
Thailand
Buccaneer Offline
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Buccaneer  Offline
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Thailand
Like it or not the F18 class is stuck with the 400lb boats. Still we've seen some developments in the platform which an F18L class could benefit from… <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


"House prices have risen by nearly 25 percent over the past two years. Although speculative activity has increased in some areas, at a national level these price increases largely reflect strong economic fundamentals." – Ben Bernanke – 2005
Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: John Williams] #102273
04/10/07 09:56 PM
04/10/07 09:56 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 337
Victoria, Australia
C2 Mike Offline
enthusiast
C2 Mike  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 337
Victoria, Australia
Quote
Hey Bob, I kinda take offense, there. I bought a boat in a class where there is really good competition and some great people. I don't know your situation, but I frequently move my F18 around by myself - and I'm not a big guy.

Your point about the F16 class growing may be on target, and I can guarantee that if the racing is there someday, then I will be, too. Right now I have a gorgeous, extremely well-made boat that gets me class racing wherever I go. Just as you say, that is exactly what I want and deserve - but I don't say that with a sneer as you seem to. I've been abstaining from posting, but this thread has gotten absurd.


Here here.... Very well written John. To Bob and anybody else who doesn't like F18 - No problems, I hope you enjoy whatever you are sailing and wish you all well. All I ask is please don't [censored] can the class in the process.

FWIW I'm more than happy with my F18. Moving it about is no issue (I'm no huge guy either) and we have a wide range of manufacturers who build very competitive boats. F16 looks to be filling a different place in the market and I wish them great success

Tiger Mike

Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: C2 Mike] #102274
04/10/07 11:34 PM
04/10/07 11:34 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 695
Ft. Pierce, Fl. USA
Seeker Offline
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Seeker  Offline
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Ft. Pierce, Fl. USA
John I did not set out to offend you or anyone else. Was anything I said false? Don’t the proponents of the 400# boats have exactly what they want? Don’t they use there wallets to support the type of boat they want? In effect keeping the industry in a fixed position as to boat weight in some of the most popular classes? Is not a frequent topic of discussion keeping boat design static so the resale value is not lost? Is there not always someone who brings up the point that if exotic materials are introduced, cat sailing will escalate into an arms race with “who ever has the most money wins”?

John my statement about what they (you) want and deserve was not said with a sneer but with frustration. A frustration that stems from the fact that I love building & rebuilding boats as much as I love using them. My passion is to see boat design pushed to greater and greater heights, not stagnate. I have worked in the boat building industry and know what the materials cost and the labor expertise necessary to make quality composite structures from surfboards and sailboards to 105' Multi Million dollar yachts.

I am tired of people blowing smoke up our butt. Some one states some BS about boat building and everyone jumps on board and repeats it over and over until it is accepted as undisputed fact.

Several years ago I did a cost breakdown for a 16' cat (and posted it on the old forum) as to what the material cost difference would be between e-glass, S- glass, Kevlar and Carbon...it's not as much as what people try to make it out to be. If you are already making a quality boat out of vacuum bagged e-glass/Cross linked PVC foam core/vinyl ester resin, the only difference is going to be the increased cost of the fabric itself, which is a relatively small part of the overall cost of a sail boat. In fact you will have a minor resin savings by being able to use less and/or lighter weight fabrics.

The mold is not going to change, the mold prep is not going to change, the gel coat is not going to change, the peel ply is not going to change, the bleeder cloth is not going to change, and the polyethylene film is not going to change. The labor cutting of the fabric is not going to appreciably increase (Kevlar will require electric shears) ...in fact you will be able to use lighter weight cloth in S-glass, Kevlar or Carbon and achieve the same physical properties. If a worker can wet out e-glass they can wet out s-glass/kevlar/carbon just the same, it’s not some mystical experience.

Companies all over the world have proven they are capable of building lighter boats, it is illogical to build something heavier than it has to be for no reason, other than “that’s the way we have always done it”.

As Sir Issac Newton was quoted as saying “I can calculate the motions of heavenly bodies, but not the madness of people”

Regards,
Bob

Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: C2 Mike] #102275
04/10/07 11:43 PM
04/10/07 11:43 PM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,147
Bay of Islands, NZ
W
warbird Offline
old hand
warbird  Offline
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W

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,147
Bay of Islands, NZ
Why would you guys not love your boats..they are 20K plus. They are brand new etc. They are bloody groovy. It is a given though that the weight will become a factor. The manufactures WILL push for a rule change when THEY want it and can see a big turnover of boats.
For beach sailors that will be a boon as the F18 will make a great beach boat, tough and no nonsense. That is the way of things, evolution.
I don't think people are knocking the boats, just the manufacturers who are not delivering a lighter product when that would be competitive for longer.

Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Seeker] #102276
04/11/07 06:52 AM
04/11/07 06:52 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
Carpal Tunnel
John Williams  Offline
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Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
Quote
Was anything I said false?


Yes - the only reason I responded was because you were wrong on a few points:

I do, in fact, want performance and I got it.

I have not "tied the hands" of development by my choice of class - development is happily rolling right along, even within the F18 class. Rule changes and designs that enhance performance or safety come out all the time in the F18 class - witness wing masts, full-batten jibs, etc.

I am not driven by fear to try somehow to limit development. Nor am I stubborn and without vision, faith or enthusiasm, nor am I afraid of giants or deserts. Spiders, though... they freak me out.

Rail aginst whatever you want - I do all the time. But try not to make it personal. Your post and others in this thread seem to fault a specific population of sailors with hobbling the industry by being close-minded flat-earthers, while others who have seen the light struggle valiantly to keep from drowning in a sea of poorly built barges of steel and stone. Personally, I looked at where things stood in the US two years ago and decided that F18 would see significant growth and I wanted to ride that wave. I haven't done the math on the exhange rate between USD and New Zealand, Warbird, but it cost me far less that $20k to get a new boat in an exciting class. After 10 months on this boat, I have zero regrets.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: John Williams] #102277
04/11/07 07:02 AM
04/11/07 07:02 AM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
Tornado_ALIVE Offline
Pooh-Bah
Tornado_ALIVE  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
I have raced F16s and F18s among many other boats. Racing an F16 with a light weight crew is cool and it is light enough for you to move around. However an F16 with a heavy crew weight is not a lot of fun.

On the flip side, two grown adults can easily move an F18 around also and are very comfortable sailing it.

Different markets guys.......

I am not loyal to any class and race what I enjoy. The F16 is a cool boat, as with many other boats such as the Tornado. I could have found myself a light crew and raced F16s but against who. The F18 gave me the fleet racing which is what I wanted.

I am not an expert in the F18 class, however from what I have seen, something that made the F18 the success it is today are all the volunteers, international and local class founders that put in endless hours of work to get the class up and running and keeping it running. They were also assisted by several large catamaran manufactures that put in a lot of work assisting with the creation of the class, marketing the products, conforming to a formula, building the boats to meet levels of demand and distributing around the world.

If the F16 class is to get right off the ground, it will need the support of some of the large cat manufactures to work in the same way as they have with the F18 class. It will be tough though as racing cats are a very small market and the F18 has already snapped up large numbers of members.

Back to the weight issue. The F18 class is what it is and enjoys great racing being one of the most successful sailing classes around at present. Yes the boats can be built much lighter now, but at what cost will implementing it have on the class???? Why jeopardise what the class has worked so hard in achieving. Surely a lighter boat may be a little easier to man handle on land, however you barely notice it with good rollers. On the water, it will make very little difference in speed and the feel of the boat. Is it really worth it.

Lastly, all those who bitch about the weight of the boats…… Who has actually sailed them. I would imagine very few. Before I joined the class, I looked unfavourably at their 180 kg, however after sailing them, it was a non issue. What I did get was some of the best racing I have ever had.


Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #102278
04/11/07 07:28 AM
04/11/07 07:28 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline
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Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
John,

on a totally wild tangent: You mention fully battened jibs as a performance enhancement. Why are fully battened jibs better than partially battened jibs? Full battens make the sail more stable shape wise, but how do you alter shape on the jib to changing conditions with a fully battened jib? Besides, I know firsthand how much work finding the right battens can be. I am not certain if fully battened jibs are faster over the complete windrange now that we have selftackers on most performance boats.
Sorry for the rhetoric and for jumping on your argument with both feet in what is a totally different discussion.. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> It's just me having a pet theory that fully battened jibs vs partially battened jibs have not been thoroughly tested.

Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #102279
04/11/07 07:30 AM
04/11/07 07:30 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

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Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe


I've raced both F18's and F16's. Personally I see no conflict between these classes or even between the heavy weights and lightweight. I look at it more as complementary classes. Designs that will suit sailors of different opinion. I will personally never own a F18 but that doesn't mean that they don't have a good thing going on.

And thankfully for people like myselfs an equal performant lightweight alternative is available. Something that the BIG boat builders would never have offered when left to their own devices. In that sense Bon is completely right.

So maybe you are both right. But that is beside the point now as both options are now available.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Wouter] #102280
04/11/07 09:06 AM
04/11/07 09:06 AM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 695
Ft. Pierce, Fl. USA
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Ft. Pierce, Fl. USA
"Spiders, though... they freak me out."
Progress at last... see John we finaly found something we can agree about...LOL

Regards,
Bob

Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Wouter] #102281
05/05/07 09:19 PM
05/05/07 09:19 PM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 461
Victoria, Oztralia
mattaipan Offline
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mattaipan  Offline
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Posts: 461
Victoria, Oztralia
Hi All

I read there is some sort of deal struck between AHPC and Jim Boyer to have the new taipan hulls built in Asia, then brought in from there.

The moulds will leave Australia soon, and the first orders have been placed with hulls expected to arrive back here in, I think it was September.

Regards


Matt Harper Homebuilt Taipan 4.9 AUS 329 'GOT WOOD' SEEDY PIRATES RACING TEAM
Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: mattaipan] #102282
05/06/07 04:28 AM
05/06/07 04:28 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

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Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe


Where is the source of that statement ?

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Wouter] #102283
05/06/07 05:21 AM
05/06/07 05:21 AM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 461
Victoria, Oztralia
mattaipan Offline
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mattaipan  Offline
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Victoria, Oztralia
The source of that statement is the Taipan and Capricorn Association of Australia's current newsletter.

This issue was spoken about at the TCAA AGM, which I wasn't at, however its seems the deal is done.


Matt Harper Homebuilt Taipan 4.9 AUS 329 'GOT WOOD' SEEDY PIRATES RACING TEAM
Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: mattaipan] #102284
05/06/07 08:26 AM
05/06/07 08:26 AM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,479
Thailand
Buccaneer Offline
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Buccaneer  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,479
Thailand
This makes perfect sense as they have a big class to support.

I’m looking forward to getting a test sail on the new Viper as these guys have a built such a phenomenal reputation with the Taipan that it’s got to be good…. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />


"House prices have risen by nearly 25 percent over the past two years. Although speculative activity has increased in some areas, at a national level these price increases largely reflect strong economic fundamentals." – Ben Bernanke – 2005
Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Buccaneer] #102285
05/06/07 11:57 AM
05/06/07 11:57 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe


Buccaneer,

When you get to test sail the Viper, we all expect a full report from you on it !

Just so you know. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Wouter] #102286
05/07/07 01:46 AM
05/07/07 01:46 AM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,479
Thailand
Buccaneer Offline
veteran
Buccaneer  Offline
veteran

Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,479
Thailand
OK I’m excited for sure but please don’t expect a comprehensive report. Anyway, as I understand it the first 4 boats are being shipped to Holland to compete at the F16 Global Challenge in August. So you can have the extreme pleasure of doing an extensive review of the all new state of the art Viper F16 for yourself. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


"House prices have risen by nearly 25 percent over the past two years. Although speculative activity has increased in some areas, at a national level these price increases largely reflect strong economic fundamentals." – Ben Bernanke – 2005
Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Buccaneer] #102287
05/07/07 04:59 AM
05/07/07 04:59 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Problem of course with that is that they also will be sailed by very capable sailors and I'm not going to be anywhere near them on the race course ! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

You however am going to take one out for yourself and can comment on how they feel while sailing !

Still I'm going to try to beg and blackmail my way to a test sail at Zandvoort.

By the way, 4 new Viper F16's at the Global Challenge you say ? I didn't know yet that it would be four of them, nice turn-out indeed.

It is also good to see that the VWM Blade F16 is not going to dominate the event as it did appear to do for a while.

Fair winds,

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Buccaneer] #102288
05/08/07 04:30 AM
05/08/07 04:30 AM

A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A



Hi Bucaneer,

I understood that 3 Vipers where going to Zandvoort, the first boat was staying in Asia. But of course the first one has to hit the water yet. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Re: [censored] is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: ] #102289
05/08/07 05:15 AM
05/08/07 05:15 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe

Quote

But of course the first one has to hit the water yet.



That is actually a good point. Only 13 more weeks left (exactly 3 months) before this Zandvoort event starts. You have to allow some 8 weeks for shipping, at least, and that leave 5 more weeks to get everything sorted out. It is getting close !

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
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