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Whats up with 400 pound boats????? #102144
03/30/07 04:20 PM
03/30/07 04:20 PM
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Maybe this will stir things up, and I am sure it has been conquered before BUT why didn't the HT take off? Why is everyone still sailing boats that weigh 400 pounds? Why wouldn't the popularity of the A class change some of the other classes (admittedly a cats certainly have durability issues, right? but you don't need to make them THAT light). I talked with someone recently who certainly knows what he is talking about who said he talked with one of the F18 manufacturers who stated that he had to try hard to OVERBUILD the boat to get it up to weight. Isn't the era of 400 pound 18 footers coming to an end yet? Even 400 pound 20 footers should die soon.
As far as reliability/durability, I haven't had my boat for very long but I see no reason why it won't last as long as any other boat.

Soooooo... WTF is with manufacturers that still make boats heavier than they need to be? There are minimum weights, etc etc, but when do you think the regular F18 class might decide to shed 100 unnecessary pounds?

Last edited by PTP; 03/30/07 09:02 PM.
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Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: PTP] #102145
03/30/07 04:27 PM
03/30/07 04:27 PM
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when do you think the regular F18 class might decide to shed 100 unnecessary pounds?


When the class decides to committ seppukku and make every one of its members sell their boat and buy a new one just to "make it lighter".

Like the F18 guys will all tell you, it doesn't really matter that your boat weights that much when all the other boats you're racing against are the same.

Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: MauganN20] #102146
03/30/07 04:39 PM
03/30/07 04:39 PM
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I understand about the "selling boats" issue but it was possible to make them 100 lbs lighter 10 years ago without losing strength, so why didn't they? And why does the N20 weigh LESS than the F18? Carbon mast I guess... but lose weight somewhere else then

Last edited by PTP; 03/30/07 06:33 PM.
Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: PTP] #102147
03/30/07 04:54 PM
03/30/07 04:54 PM
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California
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Lighter is not always better for the masses.

We tried that with the 17 when it came out. It got progressivly heavier over the years to address the typical users treatment of the boat. "Most" people do not care for their boats as well as they should.


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Matt Miller
Hobie Cat Company
Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: PTP] #102148
03/30/07 05:12 PM
03/30/07 05:12 PM
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Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
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You guys will all probably think this is silly, but as a woman, I have always preferred a boat that is fairly heavy, because I feel safer on it. I feel as though in big winds and big seas it is going to stay on the water and not go blowing away like a leaf.

Maybe what we need is a boat that is light on shore but heavier on the water. The invention is up to you engineers. Sealed water ballast compartment aft of the main beam? Lead in the bottoms of the daggerboards? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Mary] #102149
03/30/07 05:22 PM
03/30/07 05:22 PM
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Atlanta
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I sailed in big winds one day and left the drain plug out on one hull, we were really fast on one tack.

How about a movealble water ballast?

Bill

Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: bvining] #102150
03/30/07 05:48 PM
03/30/07 05:48 PM
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Orlando, FL
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Don't have drain plugs for that reason ... one (or two) less things to think about!


USA 777
Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Mary] #102151
03/30/07 06:12 PM
03/30/07 06:12 PM
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Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Check the archives...

There was a detailed thread by Myself, Wouter and Bob Hodges which went through the history of the HT class development in the USA. Basically both classes started at the same time here in the US.

The 18HT boats were all built in the EU... and only the Bim's made it over here. The US dollar was very very strong... so boats were dirt cheap for about 2 years.

In the USA... Hobie and Performance had no plans to build a light weight boat. (Matt Miller spoke of Hobie's experience... Performance was of the same mind. Internationally the F18 class had a hell of a good start and was the dominant class in the EU and growing.

Peformance's major market is the EU... so they had to build a competitive boat for the EU market. Nacra had the Inter 18 in production... Snagged the Cirrius design of the French and then came out with the F18.... and then the Infusion. Hobie could start quickly in the US using the French built Tigers. Hobie solved the comp tip problem in the USA.

So ... The US and Australia market had to choose. Hobie and Performance decided to market the F18 in the states. The dealers offered support through the combined dealer network. The dollar collapsed. The major promotoer of the class, WF Oliver, had life changes and stopped actively promoting the class. And thus it was so... The US Sailor wanted the F18... not the F18HT.

So... what are the tradeoffs of Heavy versus Light?

Heavy... (Well.. it IS a two person boat.. its only 200 lbs per person... Thats just a bit more then an A cat... a suck it up wuss!)

Cheaper to build (Well... that just goes to profit margin because the hulls are not that much more to build then an 18 foot A Cat if the estimates are to be believed.)

Performance... discounting Mary's preference for a tank in a blow... She is a Hobie 18 sailor at heart after all.. Heavy costs you in sailing performance! Less speed... less helm feel.... less quick in the turns.

Tougher/stronger... This notion has been shot down many a time. Weight has nothing to do with structural properties sailing.

Heavy means the ability to take abuse from the user... Well.. that is Matt Millers point... I am not sure I understand how this actually works though.. How does more resin equal more abuse resistance?

What other tradoff's do people see?


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Mark Schneider] #102152
03/30/07 06:24 PM
03/30/07 06:24 PM
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Mark, thanks for the summary. I heard that part of the reason why the HT didn't take off here is because people tried to drive them like big 400lb boats which didn't work well.
I do understand the point Maug made about it doesn't truly matter if everyone is racing the same boat but just seems like we all spend so much time talking about this advance or that and this new sail design etc when the most popular boats are using building techniques invented 30 years ago (all this talk of resin infusion, etc, WTF is the point if it just gives you the same result?)

Last edited by PTP; 03/30/07 06:26 PM.
Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: PTP] #102153
03/30/07 06:36 PM
03/30/07 06:36 PM
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Victoria, Australia
C2 Mike Offline
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Quote
Maybe this will stir things up, and I am sure it has been conquered before BUT why didn't the HT take off? Why is everyone still sailing boats that weigh 400 pounds? Why wouldn't the popularity of the A class change some of the other classes (admittedly a cats certainly have durability issues, right? but you don't need to make them THAT light). I talked with someone recently who certainly knows what he is talking about who said he talked with one of the F18 manufacturers who stated that he had to try hard to OVERBUILD the boat to get it up to weight. Isn't the era of 400 pound 18 footers coming to an end yet? Even 400 pound 20 footers should die soon.
As far as reliability/durability, I haven't had my boat for very long but I see no reason why it won't last as long as any other boat.

Soooooo... WTF is with manufacturers that still make boats heavier than they need to be? There are minimum weights, etc etc, but when do you think the regular F18 class might decide to shed 100 unnecessary pounds?


What is so compelling that the weight of the most successful cat class introduced in the last 25 years be changed? Overall the F18 class is still going gangbusters.

Lowering the weight will probably improve their performance somewhat but then again will that extra knot of boat speed make them more enjoyable to sail?? Probably not. Will it make them more flighty and more difficult to handle in windy conditions for new people to the class? For sure.

Will the number of extra sailors that you attract to the class be more than those that leave because they are po'ed that their boat is not worthless because it is too heavy?

The very fact that HT didn't take off world wide is a strong indication that having the lightest class weight is not the most important thing when building a successful class.

Why did the founders of the class choose 180kg as a minimum?? Who knows. I'm sure there would have been a reasoned explanation at the time. Now, for better or worse, that is the weight for the foreseeable future. I don't see any compelling case to change it.

Tiger Mike

Last edited by TigerMike; 03/30/07 06:38 PM.
Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: PTP] #102154
03/30/07 06:36 PM
03/30/07 06:36 PM
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Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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The HT design is a bit twisted... right.

You can debate the uni with a chute concept.... IF all you did were windward leeward races... great... but if you do the distance races... or raids as the EU guys call them... that missing jib and tall stick hurts like hell in high wind balls to the wall reaches.

Since the beam is 8 feet. not 8' 6"" and the stick is really tall... you have some issues.

... you can roll the boat around the course if you are not carefull. Its not hard to get the rig out of balance with your righting moment. The HT design formula is by no means the last word in how to build a GREAT 18 foot two person Cat.... (See the lust for a Blade 18 on F16 threads)

Finally, the Bim Hull shape seems to be optimized for lake sailing... It is much more challenging to sail it in big wind and waves then the other designs.... weight having nothing to do with this feature.

Its a fun boat as designed... Enjoy it.

Mark


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: PTP] #102155
03/30/07 06:40 PM
03/30/07 06:40 PM
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Toronto, Ontario
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Because I think people don't want to RIP THEIR TRANSOM's off like Randy did at the Tradewinds..

But seriously, the f18 should have been 50lbs lighter..oh well.

Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: pitchpoledave] #102156
03/30/07 06:52 PM
03/30/07 06:52 PM
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Because I think people don't want to RIP THEIR TRANSOM's off like Randy did at the Tradewinds..

But seriously, the f18 should have been 50lbs lighter..oh well.


has this happened any other time? Has anyone heard of any other similar catastrophic failure on an F18? That one incident gets brought up... what about the N20 that had a problem during last years Tybee? I can't remember the details but it was some sort of failure that led to them having to drop out. Please let me know if there were any other instances of the transoms ripping out.

I am not saying the HT is the perfect boat by any means... I am just curious about with all the advances in boat building it hasn't been applied to most beachcats so at least make them easier to move around on the beach.

Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Mark Schneider] #102157
03/30/07 07:16 PM
03/30/07 07:16 PM
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Heavy means the ability to take abuse from the user... Well.. that is Matt Millers point... I am not sure I understand how this actually works though.. How does more resin equal more abuse resistance?


Specifically the Hobie 17 experience: After the boat was introduced, we had to change to a heavier cloth and more of it. Mostly due to users poor trailering techniques. We had to use more cloth in the wing tubes because of lazy wing removal and installation. What the designers envisioned had to be changed for the reality of the marketplace. Easy and fool proof is what is expected from a Hobie Cat. The boat got heavier.


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Matt Miller
Hobie Cat Company
Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: PTP] #102158
03/30/07 07:18 PM
03/30/07 07:18 PM
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Victoria, Australia
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Quote

I am not saying the HT is the perfect boat by any means... I am just curious about with all the advances in boat building it hasn't been applied to most beachcats so at least make them easier to move around on the beach.


Invest in a set of cat-trax or similar and moving an F18 about is easy enough. It's a bit awkward to put the rollers under by myself (but can be done) however it's no problem at all with the 2 of us.

Cheers,
Tiger Mike

Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: pitchpoledave] #102159
03/30/07 07:36 PM
03/30/07 07:36 PM
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Because I think people don't want to RIP THEIR TRANSOM's off like Randy did at the Tradewinds..



Still waiting to hear anyone else who has heard of a transom getting ripped out of a HT...

Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: mmiller] #102160
03/30/07 07:41 PM
03/30/07 07:41 PM
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Heavy means the ability to take abuse from the user... Well.. that is Matt Millers point... I am not sure I understand how this actually works though.. How does more resin equal more abuse resistance?


Specifically the Hobie 17 experience: After the boat was introduced, we had to change to a heavier cloth and more of it. Mostly due to users poor trailering techniques. We had to use more cloth in the wing tubes because of lazy wing removal and installation. What the designers envisioned had to be changed for the reality of the marketplace. Easy and fool proof is what is expected from a Hobie Cat. The boat got heavier.


You couldn't just cut down on the other overbuilt areas of the boat?

Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: PTP] #102161
03/30/07 08:22 PM
03/30/07 08:22 PM
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Sebring, Florida.
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The real reason the F18HT class didn't take off in the USA was, there were (and still are) no US builders who could supply boats as quickly as they could supply the Tiger or Inter 18 instead. It would have cost Hobie and Nacra a bundle to produce an entirely new design and with no established class here in the US, quite risky for them to invest that kind of money.

There were many long debates here on Catsailor back when the Bimare F18HT was chosen for the Worrell race, about the suitablility and availability of the Jav 2 for the Worrell 1000. In the end, I think 5 of them did run that race along with the Inter 20's and one of them did finish in front of several Inter 20's. Not too bad for an 18 foot "lake boat" out in the ocean racing against 20 footers.

The F18HT class is active in Europe, where there are seveal builders who support the class. I was lucky enough to get a ride on one of the newer designs last summer with Andi Lutz, on his Mattia F18HT, http://www.goeast.ch/ost

They are good boats, light, powered up and fast, but you have to be good to handle them because like an A cat, they are not very forgiving of mistakes in big wind, but in light to medium there aren't many 400lb. boats than can hang with them.


Last edited by Timbo; 03/30/07 10:54 PM.

Blade F16
#777
Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: Mark Schneider] #102162
03/30/07 08:32 PM
03/30/07 08:32 PM
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Annapolis Md.
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I see a market for an 18 footer that can operate on the same basis as the F16. I personally would dig an 18' spin boat that I could launch, sail and right solo but also be able to run 2 up. How about a new class, we'll cal it F18LT, min weight 230 to 250 lbs and correct what might have been goofy about the F18HT rule? I'm too light for heavy boats and heavy liquor. Ed


Still hazey after all these beers.
F-16 Falcon #212
Re: WTF is with 400 pound boats????? [Re: PTP] #102163
03/30/07 10:09 PM
03/30/07 10:09 PM
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Toronto, Ontario
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You are right that a lighter boat would be nice, but not under built. What I think is the problem is that there needs to be a stronger 20 foot class for the lighter air that we get here in NA and also for the heavier teams. In a lot of places you go F18 or else open class if you want a 20 footer. Which sucks if your total weight is 400lbs..

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