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#105029 - 04/30/07 03:26 PM Re: I sense that I had missed something. * [Re: NCSUtrey]  
Joined: Jun 2001
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Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
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North-West Europe
Quote

We'll see how the F16 fairs when its Portsmouth numbers take a good hit in the near future...



Hell, I'm the one who has been saying for years now that the US F16 rating should be the same or very close to the F18 rating.

I'm on your side on this one ! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I also quoted the elapsed times and here peachy handicap numbers have no influence.

Finishing 18 minutes behind the 2nd, 3rd and 4th Nacra 20 on elapsed time and after 4 hours of racing in light winds doesn't seem to shabby to me. This difference still translates in a winning US-PN F16 rating of 63.7. This is quite close to a the F18 rating at 62.4. In other words it will have to be a BIG drop for it to have an impact on F16 regatta results !

Now back the Nacra 20.

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 04/30/07 03:44 PM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
-- Have You Seen This? --
#105030 - 04/30/07 03:27 PM Re: I sense that I had missed something. [Re: tshan]  
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Mary Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mary  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

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Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Quote
Doesn't it take fleets of mixed type/brand of boats (as you would be comparing performance over the same course, conditions, etc.) to be used for Portsmouth rating calculations? Just guessing here....


Yes.

#105031 - 05/01/07 06:56 AM Re: I sense that I had missed something. [Re: Mary]  
Joined: Feb 2005
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Karl_Brogger Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Karl_Brogger  Offline
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Northfield Mn
I have no experience on a N20. But sitting on the beach they are a very good looking boat. This is my 2nd season racing a H16 and the Nacra seems too technical, and too reliant on having really good crew for me, (which I never have consistently). The one design racing for Nacra's in the upper midwest isn't as convient for me either. I've only done a couple of Portsmouth reggata's on my 16 and didn't care for it. Mostly because there were a few spin boats that were borderline terrifying when they'd come tearing by you downwind. And starts, I had a couple of brilliant starts only having to make room 20 sec.s after the gun for the boats that point much higher. Whether this is heresy or not, I have no clue, but I've heard it takes a couple of hours setup time on the bigger spin boats as well. I don't like the half hour it takes to launch a 16. But I still really want to experience a N20 sometime.


I'm boatless.
#105032 - 05/01/07 08:21 AM Re: I sense that I had missed something. [Re: Karl_Brogger]  
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 885
Chris9 Offline
old hand
Chris9  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 885
Crofton, MD
Arrival to launch time from mast up storage on trailer with skilled crew including getting drygear on: 40 minutes.


Chris Allen
Nacra 20 Gertie
www.wrcra.org
#105033 - 05/01/07 08:34 AM Re: I sense that I had missed something. [Re: Karl_Brogger]  
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Timbo Offline
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Timbo  Offline
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Sebring, Florida.
The only thing faster to rig than a Hobie 16 is maybe an A cat. The only thing slower to rig than two guys on an Inter 20 is...one guy doing it alone! Still, when I raced mine with my son, I could do it alone in under an hour, as long as he stayed out of the way!

It only looks intimidating, it's not that big a deal once you have done it a few times, but you will never be as fast rigging any spinnaker boat vs. a Hobie 16.

The "really good crew" will always be an issue if you want to race a 20 foot anything, or an F18. That is why some like the F16 class, you can race solo if crew is an issue or two up if you have crew. And as the Alter Cup crews just proved, it's not a "light air, light crew only" type boat.

Last edited by Timbo; 05/01/07 08:39 AM.

Blade F16
#777
#105034 - 05/01/07 08:43 AM Re: I sense that I had missed something. [Re: Timbo]  
Joined: Jun 2001
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David Ingram Offline
Carpal Tunnel
David Ingram  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,904
Clermont, FL, USA
Quote
T
The "really good crew" will always be an issue if you want to race a 20 foot anything, or an F18. That is why some like the F16 class, you can race solo if crew is an issue or two up if you have crew. And as the Alter Cup crews just proved, it's not a "light air, light crew only" type boat.


What's your definition of heavy?


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
#105035 - 05/01/07 08:59 AM Re: I sense that I had missed something. [Re: David Ingram]  
Joined: Mar 2006
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tback Offline
veteran
tback  Offline
veteran

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,243
Orlando, FL
Quote

What's your definition of heavy?


for Timbo it's got to be:

A term included in the call sign of large aircraft for purposes of air traffic control.

For example, air traffic control could say "Flight 277 HEAVY, come to heading 230 flight level 320 for traffic." referring to a plane having the capability of a gross weight in excess of 255,000 pounds (115,700 kg) whether or not they are operating at this weight during a particular phase of flight.

Last edited by tback; 05/01/07 09:01 AM.

USA 777
#105036 - 05/01/07 09:35 AM Re: I sense that I had missed something. [Re: David Ingram]  
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Timbo Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Timbo  Offline
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Posts: 6,021
Sebring, Florida.
Ding, heavy would be me eating pizza, drinking beer, and eating cake, while sailing... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Really though, what I meant was there was this prevailing attitude that the Blade was only for small people, but I saw some heavier people going very fast, faster than some lighter people.

I have no idea what the range of crew weights were but I think Matt and Gina were among the lighter of the 20 crews, I don't know who was the heaviest.

As I have been saying for two years, the hulls have lots of volume aft and can cary weight well. You don't have to be a skinny sailor to go fast on it. Certainly if you are going to race it solo you will have plenty of power.


Blade F16
#777
#105037 - 05/01/07 09:42 AM Re: I sense that I had missed something. [Re: Timbo]  
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,276
John Williams Offline
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John Williams  Offline
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Posts: 3,276
Long Beach, California
Matt and Gina were around 285 I think. Heaviest team I heard was Layline at 360. There was a big grouping of teams around 310 - that's what JC and I weigh together. 310 is not enough on the N20 in my opinion - need something around 340-350. The days of people asking me to crew on a 20 are past, I'm afraid. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
#105038 - 05/01/07 10:01 AM Re: I sense that I had missed something. [Re: John Williams]  
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David Ingram Offline
Carpal Tunnel
David Ingram  Offline
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Posts: 3,904
Clermont, FL, USA
Thank you John, that's the answer I was looking for.

Dave


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
#105039 - 05/01/07 10:05 AM Re: I sense that I had missed something. [Re: tback]  
Joined: Feb 2005
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Karl_Brogger Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Karl_Brogger  Offline
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Northfield Mn
Quote
flight level 320


FL320 doesn't exist, unless something has changed since I went to school for ATC.

#105040 - 05/01/07 10:43 AM Re: I sense that I had missed something. [Re: David Ingram]  
Joined: Jun 2001
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John Williams Offline
Carpal Tunnel
John Williams  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

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Posts: 3,276
Long Beach, California
Hey Ding -

It is not so much a strength thing on the 20 - I think you need the rail meat to hold the boat down as the breeze comes up. He who depowers first going uphill seems to lose. A good spin halyard set up and a pair of tuned 57mm autos on each side of the boat make the crew work achievable for just about anyone. I simply don't have the mass to do my part on the wire... it takes a 210-pound skipper, minimum, to get the two of us into the ballpark. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
#105041 - 05/01/07 10:52 AM Re: I sense that I had missed something. [Re: John Williams]  
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,114
MauganN20 Offline
Carpal Tunnel
MauganN20  Offline
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BANNED
Quote
it takes a 210-pound skipper, minimum, to get the two of us into the ballpark.


That shouldn't be hard in the I20 class to find a skipper that heavy.

Hell, the "walking toothpick with a pingpong ball head" is up to 200lbs as he types this.

#105042 - 05/01/07 11:37 AM Re: I sense that I had missed something. [Re: MauganN20]  
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,459
Keith Offline
veteran
Keith  Offline
veteran

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,459
Annapolis,MD
Quote
Quote
it takes a 210-pound skipper, minimum, to get the two of us into the ballpark.


That shouldn't be hard in the I20 class to find a skipper that heavy.

Hell, the "walking toothpick with a pingpong ball head" is up to 200lbs as he types this.


I'm slowly crawling my way down to 210... I think that's a big thing about these boats - either you're lighter and feel at a disadvantage, or heavier and are thankful for a boat that can handle your weight. For the heavy guys if you go to any other class you're looking for crew that weighs 100 lbs to get competitive.

#105043 - 05/01/07 11:55 AM Re: I sense that I had missed something. [Re: John Williams]  
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 885
Chris9 Offline
old hand
Chris9  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 885
Crofton, MD
John,

You just found one shipper in that ballpark. When can you be availible? Can you make Tuesday nights on the Chesapeake Bay? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Chris Allen
Nacra 20 Gertie
www.wrcra.org
#105044 - 05/01/07 11:57 AM Re: I sense that I had missed something. [Re: Keith]  
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Mary Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mary  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
It's too bad that weight has to be so much of a factor for people to feel they can be competitive on catamarans. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

#105045 - 05/01/07 11:58 AM Re: I sense that I had missed something. [Re: Chris9]  
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,114
MauganN20 Offline
Carpal Tunnel
MauganN20  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,114
BANNED
John, I'll let you drive/crew anytime on Undecided. You available this weekend? Would love to have an authentic rockstar on board <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

#105046 - 05/01/07 12:31 PM Re: I sense that I had missed something. [Re: MauganN20]  
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,573
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
waterbug_wpb  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,573
Naples, FL
My crew is 200 and I am a shade lighter at 175. Now, if I could just get my hands on another N20, we'd be set, right?

Crash diets are for quitters. Just buy a bigger boat.


Jay

#105047 - 05/01/07 12:32 PM Re: Depower [Re: waterbug_wpb]  
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 117
bsquared Offline
member
bsquared  Offline
member

Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 117
Northern VA
Quick partial hijack-how flat can you get the main with max depower? I'm used to completely boarding the top third of my H20, and this weekend on the NACRA I couldn't seem to get all the curve out the top. Twisted off nicely, just not flat. Not a common guest on this beast; is that a function of the square top; not enough downhaul (I had some adrenaline left and COULD have pulled more); not enough diamond tension; or no traveler (we weren't quite at that point yet)?

Regards being a "boy's boat", it was sure a workout for me. It was the first race of the season, but still... HOLDING the chute wasn't bad; it was pulling it back in that was the workout :-) The light fluky stuff Saturday was more of a workout than the strong stuff Sunday, because the chute seemd a lot more stable Sunday.

#105048 - 05/01/07 12:33 PM Re: I sense that I had missed something. [Re: Mary]  
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,276
John Williams Offline
Carpal Tunnel
John Williams  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,276
Long Beach, California
Hi Mary -

I'm not one to suggest that if you don't weigh a certain amount that you shouldn't consider racing. That's absurd. I sail very light on my F18 often - well below the minimum and I have to carry corrector weight even with the small sail plan. But I am not one of the tip-top skippers in the fleet. It is futile to deny that each boat has a preferred crew weight range in overall conditions - when you claw your way to the top like these Nacra 20 teams are doing, it is the tiny discriminators that make a difference between 1st and 3rd. The Nacra 6.0 was vulnerable when under-crewed, and the Nacra 20 is even more so, in my opinion. That doesn't mean that a minimum weight (or less) team can't be competitive throughout the season. When Kevin Rejda and I were seeking the 6.0 Championship back in the late 1990's at minimum weight, it finally sank in that one windy day at Nationals was all it took to take us out of contention. We were a top team and raced everyone hard, but sooner or later, the breeze comes up and the first one to max out the downhual was the first one to travel down... at that point, you're just not going as fast and as high as the boat can go.

But do you think that is discouraging? I don't - I'm still sailing light and pushing as hard as I can. Breeze came up at Hartwell for a day, and Tina and I hung in there for a third in the biggest breeze.

edit:: Remember when the first question on the beach was "how much do you weigh?" Back when I raced 16s, I got asked all the time because I was small and the 16 likes a minimum weight crew - same as the Nacra 20, only reversed. The weight thing has been around a looooooong time. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Last edited by John Williams; 05/01/07 12:52 PM.

John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
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