Announcements
New Discussions
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Hop To
Tacking the A in big wind? #105472
04/30/07 11:17 PM
04/30/07 11:17 PM
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 713
WA, ID, MT
davefarmer Offline OP
old hand
davefarmer  Offline OP
old hand

Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 713
WA, ID, MT
I've had the Boyer out 3 or 4 times in light air and loved it. Saw 15 to 20 yesterday, and after overcoming my initial panic, I got it under control a bit. But I couldn't seem to maintain any momentum in the tacks, and generally ended up backing thru the turns. Having to come in off the trap and move aft to flip the stick around, while pointing into the wind and chop, seems to kill all speed. Care to offer advice? Choreography? Thanks!

Dave

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Tacking the A in big wind? [Re: davefarmer] #105473
05/01/07 12:47 AM
05/01/07 12:47 AM
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 902
Norman,OK
gree2056 Offline
old hand
gree2056  Offline
old hand

Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 902
Norman,OK
I know that feeling but it takes about 20-25 before my boat starts to lose momentum during tacks.


Once you go cat you never go back! Nacra 5.2 (Elsies)#1499, running an inter17 spin!
Re: Tacking the A in big wind? [Re: davefarmer] #105474
05/01/07 04:48 AM
05/01/07 04:48 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe

I'm not sure how the A-cat handle it but I found when singlehanding my F16 (also low on momentum) that when I move over too soon as the skipper that I kill boat speed in a tack. Pretty much you want to do sort of a roll tack in these big winds. And yes that can get a bit hairy.

Look at it from this perspective. The outward hull mast arc through the tack at speed while the inward hull slows down. If you move to soon over as the crew then you body mass will have to be accellerated from slow to fast in order to complete the corner. The energy required to do this has to come out of the momentum of the boat as the sails are not providing anyd drive at that point. Taking this energy will slow down the craft through the turn increasing the time needed to make the turn in which the rig ca not provide sail drive but the overall drag can sap more speed. In affect you only get deeper and deeper stuck at low speeds.

Now if you roll tack then the lee hull with your body mass on it will slow down the most while the light outer hull will easily swing about. When passed through the wind the sails will draw a little bit again and then you can move over and complete the turn before capsizing.

I hope this makes sense.

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 05/01/07 06:46 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Tacking the A in big wind? [Re: davefarmer] #105475
05/01/07 06:26 AM
05/01/07 06:26 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,449
P
phill Offline
veteran
phill  Offline
veteran
P

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,449
Dave,
I don't claim to be an expert but if you don't mind I will throw in my 2 cents and give my personal perspective based on sailing UNI on a number of others cats:-

I offer you two different techniques, however both involve roll tacks and both work well dependant upon execution..

First with the main cleated.
As you go into the tack pull in an armfull of sheet and cleat.
When you come in off the wire as soon as your knees hit the deck uncleat the main because you should already be thru the tack. I think this is the quickest but also the most risky because if your timing is out you are swimming.

Second is similar but the sheet goes into the hand with the tiller.
As you come in you move towards the back of the boat and rotated your tiller arm towards the back of the boat to minimise tha amount of sheet that is eased as you go into the tack.
In both cases the common theme is keeping the main sheeted tight as long as possible and letting it out as soon as you are thru the eye of the wind.

Anyone easing the main before the tack is looking for a slow tack. Both work best when going over the crest of a wave.

Give it ago in lighter air to perfect either technique. Timing is everything.

Good luck.

Regards,
Phill


I know that the voices in my head aint real,
but they have some pretty good ideas.
There is no such thing as a quick fix and I've never had free lunch!

Re: Tacking the A in big wind? [Re: davefarmer] #105476
05/01/07 07:19 AM
05/01/07 07:19 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 887
Crofton, MD
Chris9 Offline
old hand
Chris9  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 887
Crofton, MD
Add 235#s! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> Sorry.


Chris Allen
Nacra 20 Gertie
www.wrcra.org
Re: Tacking the A in big wind? [Re: davefarmer] #105477
05/01/07 08:49 AM
05/01/07 08:49 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 778
Houston
carlbohannon Offline
old hand
carlbohannon  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 778
Houston
It's a matter of timing. You just need to practice.

My techniques change depending on whether I scared myself or I annoyed myself with slow tacks.

1)Get the boat in position. You need to be pointing high but still have good speed. Watch for waves.

2) Move aft until up can in come from the wire and just miss the traveler.

3) These thing happen in sequence but almost at the same time. The sequence depends on how much I have scared myself or how tired I am.
(conservative) Easy the main until you stop flying a hull, start to come in from the wire and push the tiller to tack the boat, hit the tramp and release the trap, easy the main, flip the tiller, start pulling the main in as you go across, attach the trap and go out pulling the main in as you go.
(not scared) push the tiller, ease the main, and start in at about the same time. The rest is about the same.

Now that you are confused, the key is to stay powered up as long as possible and use the natural motion of the boat to complete a tack.

You are pointing hard with good speed. You pinch the boat up and ease the main so it will keep going instead of windmilling. You come in off the wire to keep the boat from falling on top of you and scramble across taking care of necessary things as you go

Now go practice in lighter air.

(I don't like calling this a roll tack. Roll tacking a Laser, you can exit a tack faster than you go into it. You are using your weight and your strenght to propel the boat using the center board as a paddle. I have never seen anyone do that on a multihull)

Re: Tacking the A in big wind? [Re: carlbohannon] #105478
05/02/07 09:57 AM
05/02/07 09:57 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 807
Hillsborough, NC USA
I
Isotope235 Offline
old hand
Isotope235  Offline
old hand
I

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 807
Hillsborough, NC USA
Quote
I don't like calling this a roll tack... I have never seen anyone do that on a multihull)

Rick claims you can roll tack a cat, and I don't dispute that. I sometimes intentionally fly a hull a little high when initiating a tack. That increases weather helm and helps bring the bows up to head-to-wind quicker. In kinetics terms, I am rolling the boat (exaggerating heel by moving my body) to facilitate a tack. Does that count? I suppose, if conditions were right, I could fly a hull coming out of the tack and then hike out to pull the boat back down. That would accelerate the boat out of the tack (the second half of a roll-tack).

Regards,
Eric

Re: Tacking the A in big wind? [Re: davefarmer] #105479
05/02/07 10:41 AM
05/02/07 10:41 AM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 395
LA
Acat230 Offline
enthusiast
Acat230  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 395
LA
Dave,

The boat tacks extremely well and when I blow a tack in breeze, I find I have typically straightened the tiller mid-way through the tack and/or released too much mainsheet. You want to steer a consistent and steady turn and only release enough sheet to get across the boat and come out of the tack bow down while you hook into the trapeze.

Sometimes it helps to look forward with your eyes to place yourself where you want the boat to come out of the turn (works for gybes too, trust me, your hands and legs go on autopilot) or watch your wake as you tack for the tiller correction (tip from John Lovell).

The bottom line is it takes a lot of practice. Commit to going out and doing a lot of tacks. Do ten tacks at 30 second intervals and then stop and take a break and think about what you are doing. There is a lot of little steps that you need to make flow.

It's all part of the fun.

Bob Hodges
A2 USA 230

Re: Tacking the A in big wind? [Re: Acat230] #105480
05/02/07 01:39 PM
05/02/07 01:39 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe

When reading this post my eye noticed this and my mind wondered :

Quote

The boat tacks extremely well

...

The bottom line is it takes a lot of practice.



Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Tacking the A in big wind? [Re: Wouter] #105481
05/02/07 04:09 PM
05/02/07 04:09 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 395
LA
Acat230 Offline
enthusiast
Acat230  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 395
LA
Quote

When reading this post my eye noticed this and my mind wondered :

Quote

The boat tacks extremely well

...

The bottom line is it takes a lot of practice.



Wouter


Every A-Cat I have owned has tacked faster than the other boats I have sailed (P-19, Tornado, F-18HT). It takes practice to get across the boat quick enough to keep from flipping over (especially on my A2). It also takes practice (a lot) to perfect the basic choreography of a great wire-to-wire tack (and that applies to any trapeze boat). That is one nice thing about the A-boat, you can really take advantage of smaller shifts upwind because it does tack so easily.

It's amazing in a race how much you can lose with a bad tack. Practice is key if you want to win a championship.

Re: Tacking the A in big wind? [Re: Acat230] #105482
05/02/07 04:35 PM
05/02/07 04:35 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe


I understand Bob,

The thing that just caught my eye was the transition from one extreme to another in about 5 to 8 sentences.

Was just amusing about this phenomenon. It all comes down to how you define "well". "well" as in quick, or "well" as in "easy to do".

My posts are not too serious this time.

Fair winds and good luck.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Tacking the A in big wind? [Re: Wouter] #105483
05/03/07 08:16 AM
05/03/07 08:16 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 778
Houston
carlbohannon Offline
old hand
carlbohannon  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 778
Houston
Quote

When reading this post my eye noticed this and my mind wondered :

Quote

The boat tacks extremely well

...

The bottom line is it takes a lot of practice.



Not talking about the same thing. The boat manuvers easily and the skipper is trying to teach himself to tack the boat perfectly, everytime.

Re: Tacking the A in big wind? [Re: Wouter] #105484
05/03/07 08:43 PM
05/03/07 08:43 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 805
Gainesville, FL 32607 USA
dacarls Offline
old hand
dacarls  Offline
old hand

Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 805
Gainesville, FL 32607 USA
What Bob Hodges said.
If you are dreamy-eyed in a breeze (or initiate tiller movement but delay coming in), the A will tack by itself before you are ready, and now you are on the wrong side. Ooops, Splash.
Practice the hand changes and move properly and these little boats tack like a dream. Carving and HOLDING the tiller at the correct angle is critical to complete a fast tack, which is what Johnny Lovell is doing when he is watching the wake. Way cool = 13 seconds wire to wire? Less?


Dacarls:
A-class USA 196, USA 21, H18, H16
"Nothing that's any good works by itself. You got to make the damn thing work"- Thomas Edison
Re: Tacking the A in big wind? [Re: dacarls] #105485
05/03/07 11:49 PM
05/03/07 11:49 PM
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 713
WA, ID, MT
davefarmer Offline OP
old hand
davefarmer  Offline OP
old hand

Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 713
WA, ID, MT
Wow! Awesome responses, thanks! With this input I can come up with a pretty clear idea of how to do it efficeintly. It's apparent that I'm just not committing, being unfamiliar with a new boat and frankly , pretty spooked about a boat this light in these winds. But I know it's doable, and that I'll get better with practice. And that with more hours on it, my confidence will improve, and that should help holding on longer and jumping at the right time.
Thanks again for all the generous advice. I enjoy this exchange immensely. What a great deal to be able to get tips from those of you even more seriously addicted than myself! One of the reasons I got the boat was for the challenge, and it looks like I won't be disappointed. Gonna drag it over the Flathead Lake tomorrow, and leave it there til Flight Risk goes in (June, when the water comes up so I can use the lift).

Dave

Re: Tacking the A in big wind? [Re: davefarmer] #105486
06/14/07 03:49 AM
06/14/07 03:49 AM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 254
Gower, Wales, UK
sailwave Offline
enthusiast
sailwave  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 254
Gower, Wales, UK
Do any of you guys use centre or boom sheeting and tack it like a monohull - i.e. you end up with the tiller behind your back having flipped it behind the falls one-handed. I can manage this in light winds but when it blows, it falls apart...

Re: Tacking the A in big wind? [Re: davefarmer] #105487
06/14/07 05:23 PM
06/14/07 05:23 PM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,147
Bay of Islands, NZ
W
warbird Offline
old hand
warbird  Offline
old hand
W

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,147
Bay of Islands, NZ
Tack as you reach the top of a wave. Place weight at back of boat to move less water. Let 12 inches of mainsheet out as you come eye to wind to allow mast to swivel and boat to complete tack. Move across as late as you can so wind pushes bows, which are high and clear of water across and head down of wind to get speed before pulling main in.
If you do not let main out you will not go across heavy wind with a wing mast.

Re: Tacking the A in big wind? [Re: Wouter] #105488
06/14/07 05:28 PM
06/14/07 05:28 PM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,147
Bay of Islands, NZ
W
warbird Offline
old hand
warbird  Offline
old hand
W

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,147
Bay of Islands, NZ
My boat tacks well but it take s practice.
Makes sense to me.
My car parks well............but it takes practice. : )

Re: Tacking the A in big wind? [Re: warbird] #105489
06/14/07 06:56 PM
06/14/07 06:56 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 461
Sydney Australia
Berny Offline
addict
Berny  Offline
addict

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 461
Sydney Australia
My two bobs worth;

In stronger winds you need to let more sheet out. I recently got caught in a heavy wind race with brainfade, wondering why I was blowing tacks and then it dawned on me that unlike light wind tacking where I can keep the main sheeted [430 - F14] I needed to dump about a foot of sheet.
I already new this but had forgotten <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> after a long period of light wind sailing.

Steering a wider arc helps also as it reduces rudder drag resulting from a more acute blade angle.

Bern

Re: Tacking the A in big wind? [Re: Berny] #105490
06/15/07 01:34 AM
06/15/07 01:34 AM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 254
Gower, Wales, UK
sailwave Offline
enthusiast
sailwave  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 254
Gower, Wales, UK
Rear sheeting. Do you guys cleat the main when tacking in a blow? If not (I try not to having got wet a few times <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> ) when do you find the best time to swap hands...?

Re: Tacking the A in big wind? [Re: sailwave] #105491
06/15/07 05:44 AM
06/15/07 05:44 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 461
Sydney Australia
Berny Offline
addict
Berny  Offline
addict

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 461
Sydney Australia
Untill I put the kite on my boat, I had no cleat on the mainsheet. Cleating the main is S l o w.

bern.


Moderated by  Damon Linkous 

Search

Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 652 guests, and 88 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Darryl, zorro, CraigJ, PaulEddo2, AUS180
8150 Registered Users
Top Posters(30 Days)
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics22,404
Posts267,055
Members8,150
Most Online2,167
Dec 19th, 2022
--Advertisement--
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1