Wrong again, Wout. The US H14 fleet has had a resurgence because boats are cheap and they make a nice 2nd boat. There's still a North American Championships and occasional class racing to be had, mostly in the in middle of the country (where coincidentally, the H20 is still strong.)

I know... it is a great boat. I love sailing the 20. A buddy of mine, Mike Hammond, and I were just out on his 20 this weekend, having a GREAT time. Discontinuing the 17 was a tough decision, as is the 20.

This is simple supply and demand. Not enough demand and continued production required too many supplies. It is a fact of business life that products reach the end of their sales cycle at some point. I won't bother listing the discontinued models of our competitors (and some competitors themselves) over the last ten to twenty years.

We cannot continue to build a product when that-product requires the purchase of large lots of materials where much of it would go unused. Those materials would not be used up in a reasonable time, if at all. Aluminum extruders are our number one issue for discontinuing product that is at low production volume. We have to buy thousands of pounds of extrusion when we do. This material must also be processed before it shelf hardens. We simply can't have materials just sit on the shelf for years to come. The cost of excess materials and the labor for processing unusable / unsellable materials are prohibitive.

We very much appreciate your support of the Hobie 20 through the last decade and a half. We will, of course, continue to support Hobie 20 replacement part needs through our Parts and Accessories department as we are the 14, 17, 18, 21 and TriFoiler along with others.

To address some concerns about our focus and future...

We are a vibrant and growing company. In fact, our sales of other product that we build is growing very fast. We are continuing to expand our production facility and warehousing both here in Oceanside and in Australia. Along with the Hobie Bravo, Hobie Wave and Hobie Getaway, Hobie 16, Hobie FX-1 and Hobie Tiger, we also build the Hobie Adventure Island (likely the number one selling small sailboat in the World now) and thousands of Hobie Mirage kayaks that sell equipped with accessory sail rigs every year. I believe we will continue to be the leader in bringing new sailors into sailing in general... and high performance sailing specifically as these consumers progress in their sailing experience.

Tike, to follow up on your point, they are obviously making more money selling crappy roto-molded boats to people who do not know any better.
The thing about the smaller companies is that they are focused on product and not profit.
Look at Daryll, his 14 is created from a desire to make something wonderful and World-beating. He cares about longevity as well and makes the boats out of best possible but his road is up hill as his logo is not known.
Once roto is up and running China will be pumping them out at 10 for every carbon or kevlar boat produced and the beach cat world will be drowned in mediocraty.

Wouter, can you imagine the money Hobie will make out of retro fitting 200,000 H16 with spinnies and snuffers!
2.5 K for some sail cloth and a bit of plastic...easy to post...Kerchingggg baby!

That is what the people are saying here...Hobie are making simple business decisions...and not taking responsiiblity for who they are, what legacy they have and what actually makes the World go around. It is time for business to understand that Ideal and quality trumps dollars and mediochrety every time. We look to people like Hobie for leadership and what do we get????Simple business decisions..it is the money mantra.
A chicken in every pot and a rotomold in every driveway.
If ever there was a reason not to encourage people into cat sailing it is this.
When I got my first cat it was a fibreglass PT, beater. That was 25 years ago and that boat is still a good little boat that sails fast and can be updated into a flyier. My boats since, while second hand have all had integrity until I have an excellent Hydra 16, Nacra 14 Squared and Taipan..... all still excellent sail boats and one is 25 years old......
vibrant shmibrant, Hobie reaks of midmanagement and design graduates. Rather than gettting rid of boat makers, get rid of a few people in the office.

Gotta love it when the people like this jump on the band wagon against Hobie when we make a change. Some posters are truly uninformed and just plain full of hot air at times.

This is a company run by excellent management and very intelligent engineers along with a staff that all get a say in product development. A company that was closer to folding in the early 90's and twice sold. A company that is now 10 times the size and, once again, successful at what we do. A company that continues to sell quality products for people who love to sail. A company that still has half its line of sailboats in glass production.

Sorry fellas, I take this quite personally.

On the contrary - Hobie are making simple business decisions ...and taking responsibility for who they are.

I'm no fan of their general strategy with respect to SMOD, but I'm a big fan of their right to spend their money how they choose to, just as I do mine (after tax of course).

Mark.

Matt, what is "shelf hardening"?

I agree that you can't justify maintaining production status of something you are selling just a dozen or so a year on. While the romanticists of the sport would want to believe that the manufacturers have some moral obligation to support the things we love, it's sometimes just not good business sense to do so.

Hobie has to do what Hobie does best- make the rotomolded cats that sell well and make money for the company. What pisses people off? The fact that Hobie is drifting (or motoring) away from high performance boats?

And yeah, what is shelf hardening??

Matt- I know advertising is expensive, but I've never seen an ad for hobie, other than sailing magazines. (I did see a couple of Bravo's in the new 007 movie)Our sport, regardless of builder, needs to be made cool again. It sounds really stupid, but looking back I think the day I bought my first boat was borderline spiritual event. On some small scale it changed my life for the better, and honestly that isn't something that happens all that often unintentionally with out loads of effort. I think that too many people view sailing catamarans as a black art. Something that only an elite few can grasp. Only an elite few get to perfect it, but thats the case with just about everything.

Come on down to Ventura - we have cat friendly yacht clubs that welcome the beachcats. AAMOF we have a race this weekend, one July 14th, and August 25th for Ocean distance races, and the Blue Water Regatta July 7th.

That's when Viagara sits on a shelf beyond it's use by date.

Matt,

I am going to take issue with several of your points.

You said
" It is a fact of business life that products reach the end of their sales cycle at some point."

I say every market you can name is somewhat cyclic. To make long term decisions based on sales figures during a down cycle is short sighted and irresponsible. To abandon all of the customers that have made your company what it is today is just plain arrogant. If it weren't for your loyal customers, your company would have never made it to the point of recovery. Now that the company is cutting the fat hog on the rotomold products to abandon virtually all of your other classes * is corporate arrogance at it's worst. Here's a question you might want to think about, what is HCC going to do when the Chinese or the Koreans start building better rotomold products at half the price of yours and you don't have anything else left in the wagon to sell ?
*(Excepting of course the H-16,and it is my understanding that just in the past few years started to sell enough units to save itself)

You said
"We cannot continue to build a product when that-product requires the purchase of large lots of materials where much of it would go unused."

I say your company is taking the easy way out and not looking very hard at options that would allow you to continue to build these boats and remain profitable. Reach out to the customers, many of them have ideas and resources that you haven't even yet considered. Talk to the Class Association, come clean about what it might take to keep these fleets alive. Think outside the box. Try to find ways to save the fleets that made your company great instead of focusing on the excuses for killing the class's

You said
"We will, of course, continue to support Hobie 20 replacement part needs through our Parts and Accessories department as we are the 14, 17, 18, 21"

In other words, you will continue to sell parts as long as it suits you AND is profitable. I wish I could just skim the cream in my business too.

You said
"I believe we will continue to be the leader in bringing new sailors into sailing in general... and high performance sailing specifically as these consumers progress in their sailing experience".

I believe you are rolling your smokes at both ends. Your Company doesn't bring anyone into sailing !
There are huge area's of the country that don't even have a Hobie dealer, and even larger area's where the Hobie dealer is all but invisible.
Here in Colorado, we only have ONE sailboat retailer left, and he is hanging on by a thread.
YOUR BEST SALES PEOPLE ARE THE PEOPLE SAILING YOUR PRODUCTS.
And you are systematically abandoning them
Oh, and if you look at the percentages of "performance sailors" compared to families and weekend warriors, your have a screwed up idea of what your target market should be.

You said
"This is a company run by excellent management and very intelligent engineers along with a staff that all get a say in product development.

I say, You may have good management but your marketing and customer relations department leaves a lot to be desired.
Intelligent engineers are great, one of the best engineers I ever knew was at the same time the poorest businessmen I ever knew. He spent most of his life broke until he hired someone to manufacture and market his product. Once he did that, he was financially successful as well. Point being if you are letting engineers have input to marketing and sales departments, you are fools. Let engineers do what engineers do and tell them to stay the heck out of marketing.
Market your strengths, you have strong stable great fleets out there full of great salespeople. Find a way to support them, they will support you back in ways you cannot even imagine. Oh yeah and while you are at it, keep the accountants in their place too.

You said
"A company that is now 10 times the size and, once again, successful at what we do. A company that continues to sell quality products for people who love to sail. A company that still has half its line of sailboats in glass production."

I say, hurrah for you, if you are so damn successful, why do you keep cutting great boats out of production because of a cyclic downturn in the market.
The pendulum WILL swing the other way. But if you have discontinued everything but the H-16 you leave the entire market open to your competitors.
Quality product??? Singular, One, an only lonely H-16 for the weekend/family sailor that likes to compete in a class.
Half its line of sailboats in glass production?
The Tiger is built in Europe!
The 16 is now built in Australia!
Like it or not, the Tiger is too much boat for many people.
Like it or not, the H-16 is NOT a one size fits all boat.
Like it or not, the future of class catamaran racing is not going to be the Wave or the Getaway.
Last but not least, nature abhors a vacuum, and like it or not, your customer base will drift away to your competitors.

You said
"Sorry fellas, I take this quite personally."


Matt, I have loved my Hobie 18 from the first day I sailed it over 27 years ago.
I have preached to anyone that would listen that a Hobie was the only boat to buy.
To watch your company abandon me and my friends, well, I take it quite personally too.


Respectfully,
Stephen Cooley
Hobie Division 5 Chairman

Stephen,

I could not have illustrated this better than you did with this statement...



Look, I love Hobie sailing too, but the bank is king. Ya gotta pay the bank... and frankly, the 20 might have been discontinued many years ago if some people would have had their way. It is Hobie enthusiasts such as myself and others at the company that kept some of these models on the market as long as they have been.



It may be cyclic for sailing in general, but it is normally called a bell curve for a specific product. There is a beginning, peak and a tapper off to the end.

I am not going to get into a pissing match over the rest of the statements.

"Shelf hardening" is a term we use to describe the natural hardening of aluminum extrusions over time. It doesn't take that long to become a problem. Another issue is corrosion. We have to bend and machine, harden and anodize before they harden or corrode.

Matt,
Would I be correct in saying that the cost of materials that caused the decision to cease the 20's production is more so in parts like the beams, mast, sails and etc. rather than the fiberglass production itself?
One of the reasons Vanguard is so sucessful is that many parts are shared (ie. the 420, V15, FJ share mast and boom extrusions and the Laser, Pico, Zuma, Sunfish and etc. do as well.) This brings the materials cost down. While Hobie has to buy different parts for all their boats.

Also, best selling small boat in the world? How many Adventure Islands are you selling?
-Todd

Lots of them...


Yes, aluminum is the biggest issue as I had mentioned. Common parts? We know the benefit, but this one is well down the road having been designed in the early 90's.

"I have loved my Hobie 18 for 27 years...."
I can't see anyone saying that about their rotomolded Getaway!

Good point.

Here in NL I haven't hear much at all about the SL16. I also think that Sirena is the official agent for the SL16 in Europe and so Nacra Europe may not have much to do with it. That possibility good well be a serious drawback. I hear the SL16 is doing well in France but their doesn't seem to be much interaction between France and the rest of Europe in the way of catamarans. The only exception to that rule would be Hobie cat France. What I'm saying here is that France seems to be very inwardly focussed with respect to catamaran builders. Many types of french boats do not get a significantly market share outside of France. The SL16 seems to go the same route.

But indeed the SL16 and Nacra 500 are direct competitors.

Wouter

disclaimer :

of course my comments are all my personal opinions. I compose them simply by looking at a few key economic pointers. Up till now these have been dependable, but they still not garantee anything.

And I also warn against the selfforfilling profecy syndrome. So please fight my facts and assumptions were ever needed or possible. This to get the picture more clear.

end disclaimer.





I said that the FX-one is on the right rope at this time. This class needs something to happen in the next few years or I suspect it will go the way of the Fox. The latter was regarded as a well behaved boat but it failed because it couldn't establish a large enough fleet of sailors economically supporting the class. Basically, even good designs can fail. Of course the fact that it failed to enter the US market sufficiently because it was too slow compared to the US inter-20 contributed, but that still doesn't make it a bad F20 design.

FX-one in the EU is in my opinion not very well established. For several years I looked up the EU championship results and general race results and it doesn't seem to gain much critical mass. For a design that has been launched in 2000 and directly in the EU market by a major boat builder, I think this to be telling. I haven't sensed my of a FX-one class structure. The only recurring activity of the FX-one are the European championships, but these are always held together with the Hobie Tiger EU championships and as such just piggy back along. I think even the Fox still has EU championships this way, but I need to check that.

Also in UK and NL the F16's are directly challenging the FX-one (and I-17's). In the UK the race has been run I'm afraid and in NL were are neck to neck but with the F16 still in her growth phase (launched here in earnest in 2004). And I need to say here that the F16 class in NL is still very small. It is supported and grown by well intending amateurs and only 1 (very modest) agentship. It is striking that such a group can compete directly with a massive builder/dealer network like Hobie. That really shouldn't be happening !

I believe the FX-one is good modern boat, so it is not so much the design itself that is the issue. It is the class structure and the support by the FX-one sailors to that class. This is too weak at this time. This is also largely caused by the fact that no area outside of the EU supports the FX-one at all. The only area outside EU that has FX-one's is the USA and there are only a handful there. I think Aus has 2 or 3 old dealer demo's sailing and apart from that I know of no exported boats.

So my opinion is that the FX-one needs to be heavily promoted by the Hobie company/network or it mirculously needs to grow in other place then NL and Spain or its economic markers will keep pointing downward.

The FX-one has got one thing going for it and that is its role in the hobie product line. It is afterall the ONLY hobie singlehander product in production at this time. Also it is the only modern entry boat by hobie at this time. Apart from the rotomoulded stuff it only has the Hobie 16 and Hobie Tiger as companions. Discontinuing the FX-one is a big loss to such a short "performance oriented" boat listing. The hobie 15 and Hobie dragoon are not really performance boats or entry boats for adults. The Hobie 15 is also a very rare boat, more rare then the FX-one.




It appears that is where the Hobie corp USA is allowing "the bottom line" to push them towards.

It may even be worse for hobie sailors. Eventually they may have to consider changing to a non-hobie class. One that is run more by the passion for catamarans then the suffocating "bottom line".

Eventually, catamaran companies need to accept that no one is getting rich of building performance oriented beach catamarans. Any young business student will strike-out this productline as soon as he sees the ratio between effort and return of investment. In companies employing such managers these products are eternally at risk.

The only way building performance oriented beach catamarans makes business sense (unless you can corner a large market) is as show cases for your skills. Where these high flying products build a public perception of your capabilities that reflects well on their other products which do have a good return of investment. One such example is a combined "boat builder sailmaker" business model like Goodall/AHPC. Apart from that personal passions and person fortunes are the sustaining factors. Were a business owner does it for the love of it while breaking even or making a very modest profit. Hobie at this time does not seem to have either of these concepts enclosed in their business and the FX-one has not achieved a sufficiently large corner of the market yet.


Maybe you also now see the attractiveness of Formula classes to builders and suppliers. The gains from new parts is too small to lead to an arms race, but the eternal modifying and upgrading of boats maintains a market of parts and replacements that earns these companies their profits. In strict OD classes you can only earn on the new boats and the very few replacements for broken parts. In formula classes, there is a market extension because nearly all owners personalize their boats and upgrade every few years (not buying a whole new boat, but upgrading their current boat to the next level). Upgrading by buying a totally new boat is only viable for owners when the boat is easily sold second hand for a very good price and in small classes like the FX-one this is difficult if not very difficult.

As you see there are many angles to this situation.




Well, all kite boats can be sailed well without the spinnakers, so why don't they just agree to race eachother without them ?

Safes you some money as well as a spinnaker does add 1000 bucks to a modern cat retail price.

Wouter