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Hobie 20 Discontinued #110441
06/26/07 10:17 PM
06/26/07 10:17 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 42
1
16nut Offline OP
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Hobie just announced that the Hobie 20 will no long be produced. So in just a few short years the, TheMightyHobie18, H17 & then the H20 have been axed (the H14 was axed a while ago). That leaves related to fiberglass boats the H16 (there best selling fiberglass boat), the Fox1, and Tiger. Of course their bigger sellers are the Island, Bravo, Wave, & Getaway. I think Hobie is doing a great job and just axing dead wood to be more streamlined and focus more on their strong class boats (H16 & Tiger). Any ways I just thought this announcement would be of interest to you all.

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: 16nut] #110442
06/26/07 10:31 PM
06/26/07 10:31 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 5,582
“an island in the Pacifi...
hobie1616 Offline
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“an island in the Pacifi...
Where can the announcement be found?


US Sail Level 2 Instructor
US Sail Level 3 Coach
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: 16nut] #110443
06/27/07 12:14 AM
06/27/07 12:14 AM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 1,037
Central California
ejpoulsen Offline
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Whoa, that really is a surprise. I've been hearing that in my area the Hobie 20 is an extremely strong class and interest in it is continuing to grow, with Div III events drawing 10 to nearly 20 H20s. I've even heard that some of the H20 sailors came from Tigers! Maybe it's a way of Hobie trying to steer folks back to the Tiger.


Eric Poulsen
A-class USA 203
Ultimate 20
Central California
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: ejpoulsen] #110444
06/27/07 07:39 AM
06/27/07 07:39 AM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,187
38.912, -95.37
_flatlander_ Offline
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Rumor started with a dealer in the MidWest, where we see ample numbers of this boat as well.

Send your dead boats to Hobie Divisions 3, 5, 7 & 14, I'm sure they'll linger for several years.

From one dead boat to another, TheMightyHobie18 & H20, in less than two years...damn <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />


John H16, H14
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: ejpoulsen] #110445
06/27/07 08:24 AM
06/27/07 08:24 AM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,187
38.912, -95.37
_flatlander_ Offline
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Whoa, that really is a surprise. I've been hearing that in my area the Hobie 20 is an extremely strong class and interest in it is continuing to grow, with Div III events drawing 10 to nearly 20 H20s. I've even heard that some of the H20 sailors came from Tigers! Maybe it's a way of Hobie trying to steer folks back to the Tiger.

34 boats in '06 and 33 boats at the '05 Nationals obviously has no weight in the Hobie US decision, BTW, of those boats maybe six were new. I don't think Hobie US gives a hoot whether or not US dealers import Tigers.


John H16, H14
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: _flatlander_] #110446
06/27/07 08:49 AM
06/27/07 08:49 AM
Joined: Feb 2006
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fin. Offline
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It's probably a good thing in the long run. I really believe the future of cats, as we have known them, lies with small companies like Vectorworks.

Expect to see Hobie license small builders with a passionate interest in racing catamarans.

Isn't that (small builders) really the way NASCAR works, and thrives?

Last edited by Tikipete; 06/27/07 08:51 AM.
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: hobie1616] #110447
06/27/07 10:09 AM
06/27/07 10:09 AM
Joined: Sep 2005
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38.912, -95.37
_flatlander_ Offline
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Quote
Where can the announcement be found?
confirmed the memo went to all dealers this week
Thread over


John H16, H14
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: _flatlander_] #110448
06/27/07 10:10 AM
06/27/07 10:10 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 141
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mini Offline
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Quote
BTW, of those boats maybe six were new. I don't think Hobie US gives a hoot whether or not US dealers import Tigers.


The H20 does not really sell anywhere outside the US and 6 boats is not enough to keep a production line for. Hobie does not make any of the fiberglass boats in the US. They are made now at Hobie Australia and imported, and I would believe they have no interest in making the 20. All the other Hobie fiberglass models come out of Hobie Europe.

Matt Miller could probably shed some more info on things, but Hobie is just concentrating on the rotomolded stuff that is making them money.

Hobie is essentially out of the cat market except for the plastic boats, Performance is now owned by a European group and may or may not be doing anyhting with their manufacturing. Even Vanguard is now owned by an English Company. Sailing in the US seems to be looking even bleaker than normal unless some of these groups can come up with a way to infuse some interest in the sport. But hey with our Hip-Hop gangster culture it may be difficult.

Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: mini] #110449
06/27/07 10:45 AM
06/27/07 10:45 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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Quote
Sailing in the US seems to be looking even bleaker than normal unless some of these groups can come up with a way to infuse some interest in the sport. But hey with our Hip-Hop gangster culture it may be difficult.


Put guns, people "of ill-repute" and drugs on them and they'll sell like hotcakes. Look at the Escalade....


Jay

Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: 16nut] #110450
06/27/07 11:17 AM
06/27/07 11:17 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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I can't suppress the desire to say : "Told you so !"

My next prediction. It will be going futher. (That was easy !)

Interesting to note is that nearly all 2007 hobie event promo posters in EU show Hobie 16's with spinnakers if it doesn't show Tigers. Size of attending Hobie 16 class (no spi) seems not to matter.

Also I think the Hobie FX-one is on the tight rope at this time. Hobie Fox has been discontinued a few years ago and I think the FX-one is just surviving for now. Actually it all dependents on what a certain 16 foot class will be doing in Europe over the next few years. If that class booms then both the I-17 and FX-one designs will have a hard time.

I think the Hobie 16 may see more modifications to it over the coming years. Maybe better downhaul system and traveller systems added. Of course all with very small steps at one time. Sort of how the laser was upgraded over the last few years. The big step will be a new mainsail (+jib) design and I fear that that will be too much for the class to consider. But it is what will be needed to reverse the trend. Sort of how the new Hobie 14 rig (squaretops) revived the US H14 fleet.

Also I see a new situation developping were Nacra now has a good and inexpensive entry catamaran for today's families and dinkies (double income no kids) but Hobie hasn't. The new Nacra 500 is a good looking, fast and well behaved boat. The Hobie 16 pales in comparison and the roto stuff simply does not catch on in EU. This new generation of potential boat owners doesn't know about "The Old Days" nor cares about them or the "100.000 sold". They want a good looking boat that is reflective of the times. Nacra 500 with gray pentex sails is exactly that. And watch out for that rotomoulded Dart 16. That design has the potential to be a very serious competition to the hobie roto stuff.

I predict the old guard with keep supporting the OD Hobie 16 in its 70's configuration, but as such they will loose the influx of new blood and whither over time. Point in case : out of 495 boats at Texel 2007 only 40 of them were OD Hobie 16's (add 7 h16+spi) = 8%. In the past this used to be VERY different; then there were 100's of them.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: waterbug_wpb] #110451
06/27/07 11:21 AM
06/27/07 11:21 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 833
St. Louis, MO,
Mike Hill Offline
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This is hard for me. I understand their decision. You can't keep a production line open for 6 boats a year. That probably doesn't make sense. I really like the Hobie 20. It's the best sailing non-spin boat I've ever sailed. It really has a sweet feel upwind. So I'll miss the boat.

I assume Hobie would continue to carry parts for the boat? Masts and booms and such? It would really suck if you couldn't get parts anymore for existing boats.

Also I thought they were still making the H17? Is the H17 officially dead now too? We have a pretty good fleet of H17's here at our local lake.

I wonder if Hobie would be willing to give their molds to someone that would be willing to continue to support the H20 class? I'm pretty sure they wouldn't but it would be a nice gesture.

I guess we could have an H20, TheMightyHobie18, and H17 dead boat Nationals. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> We'd probably get close to 100 boats.

Just wierd. Seems the boats just last too long and the demand doesn't exist for enough new boats to keep a big company interested in them.

PS. The AI is a neat little boat. Hobie really has some good ideas.

Mike Hill
Past owner of 3 brand new Hobie 20's.


Mike Hill
N20 #1005
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: mini] #110452
06/27/07 11:29 AM
06/27/07 11:29 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Quote

Performance is now owned by a European group and may or may not be doing anyhting with their manufacturing.



Their policy is pretty clear now;

Their focus in order of listing is :

-1- Infusion F18 (F18 in general)
-2- Nacra Inter-20 US rig
-3- Nacra 500
-4- Nacra 570

-5- maybe a little inter-17 or F17 or whatever it will be called in EU.

The rest is going out the door.

But very little has happened on the 17 foot front in the last few years.

The nacra Inter-20 thing (US rig) is a bit unconvincing at this moment. The intent is clear , they want to establish a new ISAF class with the Inter-20 US rig in OD status. But I'm not too sure that the EU market is supporting this. There were 17 Inter-20 US at Texel and 19 Inter-20 EU's + 15 F20 which are 90 % inter-20 EU anyway. Basically of the 47 to 52 Inter-20's at Texel only 17 of them sailed with the US rig when the rig conversion had been initiated 2 or 3 years ago. France, Australia and other regions in the world see no 20 foot racing next to the Tornado AT ALL. The UK I-20 fleet has largely switched to F18's I'm told. You'll need these area's for full ISAF recognition.

The next 3 years will make or break this intended Inter-20 ISAF recognized class.

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 06/27/07 11:31 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: Wouter] #110453
06/27/07 11:50 AM
06/27/07 11:50 AM

A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A



Quote

Their focus in order of listing is :

-1- Infusion F18 (F18 in general)
-2- Nacra Inter-20 US rig
-3- Nacra 500
-4- Nacra 570

-5- maybe a little inter-17 or F17 or whatever it will be called in EU.



In the US Performance are apparently promoting the SL16 pretty strongly. In Europe, do you see the SL16 and the Nacra 500 as competitors?

Mark.

Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: Mike Hill] #110454
06/27/07 12:43 PM
06/27/07 12:43 PM
Joined: Sep 2005
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38.912, -95.37
_flatlander_ Offline
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Quote
This is hard for me. I understand their decision. You can't keep a production line open for 6 boats a year. That probably doesn't make sense. I really like the Hobie 20. It's the best sailing non-spin boat I've ever sailed. It really has a sweet feel upwind. So I'll miss the boat.

I assume Hobie would continue to carry parts for the boat? Masts and booms and such? It would really suck if you couldn't get parts anymore for existing boats.

Also I thought they were still making the H17? Is the H17 officially dead now too? We have a pretty good fleet of H17's here at our local lake.

I wonder if Hobie would be willing to give their molds to someone that would be willing to continue to support the H20 class? I'm pretty sure they wouldn't but it would be a nice gesture.

I guess we could have an H20, TheMightyHobie18, and H17 dead boat Nationals. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> We'd probably get close to 100 boats.

Just wierd. Seems the boats just last too long and the demand doesn't exist for enough new boats to keep a big company interested in them.

PS. The AI is a neat little boat. Hobie really has some good ideas.

Mike Hill
Past owner of 3 brand new Hobie 20's.


Mike,

A recent storm at Lewisville tore up several 17's and 20's. A quick rumour started that if an order for (10) 17's came through Hobie would build them. Matt Miller quickly squashed that and stated they did not have the parts on hand to build ten boats. Subsequently, Hobie sold the last three 17 hulls they had in stock. I'm sure the same will hold true for the 20 when the parts are gone, they're gone.

Wouter,

Rest assured that this years' biggest gatherings of 14's (next month's NA's & daggerless with 19 boats at each) will be/were all class legal boats. Used parts and new sails are no problem, finding solid hulls is. Funny you would mention the FX-ONE as serious questions are being asked among the Hobie faithful. My question was exactly how is it doing in the EU and will it become the next "dead boat"?

As one local 20 sailor asked, "Are we all supposed to start racing Getaways?" A problem seems to be the vast majority of inland lake (Hobie) sailors are allergic to kites.


John H16, H14
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: Mike Hill] #110455
06/27/07 12:59 PM
06/27/07 12:59 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 101
chesapeake bay
davidn Offline
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chesapeake bay
Quote
It really has a sweet feel upwind. So I'll miss the boat.

I sold my H20 last August and got into an A cat (didn't want to search for crew anymore and wanted to race level in a good fleet, which we have here in the Chesapeake). I also miss the H20. In light to moderate winds, if you put the bows down that boat would carve to windward in an amazing way; the only boats that could outpoint us were A cats. It sailed great on all points and was quite a ride downwind in a blow--with those sharp bows. We often stuffed to the front beam, but if you knew it was coming, you could recover and keep going.

David
ex H20, now A cat

Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: _flatlander_] #110456
06/27/07 01:03 PM
06/27/07 01:03 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,246
Orlando, FL
tback Offline
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Orlando, FL
Quote
A problem seems to be the vast majority of inland lake (Hobie) sailors are allergic to kites.


You've now confirmed what I've been told:

"Kite pollen is rampant in the mid-west states" <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


USA 777
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: 16nut] #110457
06/27/07 01:08 PM
06/27/07 01:08 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 216
Lakewood, Colorado
MUST429 Offline
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Lakewood, Colorado
I said it over 2 years ago, The 20 is not an international boat, it will be the next to go. They'll ship production of the 16 to Australia, and before long you will be able to sail anything you want with a Flying H on the sail, as long as it's made out of plastic.

Given that as of today, the only Fiberglass Hobie you can buy new is the 16, how much longer can the Hobie Only regatta format survive. Something to think about.

Oh yeah, I forgot about the Tiger......... there's a boat that is just MADE for the family/weekend warrior.

Ya Rite.

Performance has their own group of problems and missteps.

Someone else opinioned that
"Expect to see Hobie license small builders with a passionate interest in racing catamarans."
I watched that happen many years ago when Nacra sold the molds and patents for the Sol Cat to a small group of passionate sailors. Needless to say, it didn't work.

I'd sure like to see it happen with the discontinued Hobie's, but unless it is really well funded, and someone takes a long view and doesn't need to make a living doing it, I don't have high hopes.

I sure wish Hobie Cat Company would look harder at ways to support the existing fleets possibly thru periodic limited runs of slow moving boats, and warehousing someplace besides Southern California where the cost of doing business is so high.

I understand that the only thing constant in life is change, but this does not bode well for the future of Catamaran racing in general.


Life is not about waiting for the storms to pass...
It's about learning to dance in the rain
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: MUST429] #110458
06/27/07 01:47 PM
06/27/07 01:47 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 14
Oklahoma, USA
H
hobieokc Offline
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H

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Posts: 14
Oklahoma, USA
So how is everyone feeling about the Hobie only regattas now? I believed in the one-design concept but assumed Hobie would continue to support the existing boats. How will the 17's, 18's, and 20's fare 10 years from now with no new boats?
BTW, Stephen, hope you and Sabrina do well @ the Championships. John M.

Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: hobieokc] #110459
06/27/07 02:13 PM
06/27/07 02:13 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Annapolis, MD
Hey... We have been this way before! The bottom line... we agree to disagree as to the present and future of cat racing in the USA.

If your fleet wants to run an open regatta... Just don't use the flying H in your NOR... Run your regatta just like a yacht club... any class that commits and gets the turnout that you want... goes racing.... (that might include classes likes skiffs, 505's Int Canoes or portsmouth cats and mono's.)

The guys who run the national and international class make the current class structure happen... They get the Nationals and Midwinters to happen. They seem to be all 16 sailors... who graciously make events for all of the other classes (except the Tigers ) happen. Appreciate what they do! (it ain't easy) ... and if racing in your region is served by droping the flying H.... better to do so sooner then latter. (Its hard to put the racing scene back together after it collapses).

(Consider... it might make more sense to run Hobie 16's and 17's in a single class after you factor in the skill and experience of the two small fleets.... )

Critical thinking about what makes the weekend worth doing is needed... If three boat one design classes work for you ..great... They don't for me.

The more interesting question is... What will we be racing in 5 years?






Last edited by Mark Schneider; 06/27/07 02:22 PM.
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: MUST429] #110460
06/27/07 02:35 PM
06/27/07 02:35 PM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 1,037
Central California
ejpoulsen Offline
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Central California
Quote
...this does not bode well for the future of Catamaran racing in general.


I was about to send in my registration for one of my favorite regattas (High Sierra Regatta run by a yacht club) when I noticed in the NOR that they had dropped the multihull class...

...I guess I'll go buy a Laser.


Eric Poulsen
A-class USA 203
Ultimate 20
Central California
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: ejpoulsen] #110461
06/27/07 02:45 PM
06/27/07 02:45 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
mbounds Offline
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Detroit, MI
Quote
Sort of how the new Hobie 14 rig (squaretops) revived the US H14 fleet.


Wrong again, Wout. The US H14 fleet has had a resurgence because boats are cheap and they make a nice 2nd boat. There's still a North American Championships and occasional class racing to be had, mostly in the in middle of the country (where coincidentally, the H20 is still strong.)

Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: 16nut] #110462
06/27/07 05:33 PM
06/27/07 05:33 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,252
California
mmiller Offline
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California
I know... it is a great boat. I love sailing the 20. A buddy of mine, Mike Hammond, and I were just out on his 20 this weekend, having a GREAT time. Discontinuing the 17 was a tough decision, as is the 20.

This is simple supply and demand. Not enough demand and continued production required too many supplies. It is a fact of business life that products reach the end of their sales cycle at some point. I won't bother listing the discontinued models of our competitors (and some competitors themselves) over the last ten to twenty years.

We cannot continue to build a product when that-product requires the purchase of large lots of materials where much of it would go unused. Those materials would not be used up in a reasonable time, if at all. Aluminum extruders are our number one issue for discontinuing product that is at low production volume. We have to buy thousands of pounds of extrusion when we do. This material must also be processed before it shelf hardens. We simply can't have materials just sit on the shelf for years to come. The cost of excess materials and the labor for processing unusable / unsellable materials are prohibitive.

We very much appreciate your support of the Hobie 20 through the last decade and a half. We will, of course, continue to support Hobie 20 replacement part needs through our Parts and Accessories department as we are the 14, 17, 18, 21 and TriFoiler along with others.

To address some concerns about our focus and future...

We are a vibrant and growing company. In fact, our sales of other product that we build is growing very fast. We are continuing to expand our production facility and warehousing both here in Oceanside and in Australia. Along with the Hobie Bravo, Hobie Wave and Hobie Getaway, Hobie 16, Hobie FX-1 and Hobie Tiger, we also build the Hobie Adventure Island (likely the number one selling small sailboat in the World now) and thousands of Hobie Mirage kayaks that sell equipped with accessory sail rigs every year. I believe we will continue to be the leader in bringing new sailors into sailing in general... and high performance sailing specifically as these consumers progress in their sailing experience.


Hobie Cat Forums
Matt Miller
Hobie Cat Company
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: fin.] #110463
06/27/07 06:10 PM
06/27/07 06:10 PM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,147
Bay of Islands, NZ
W
warbird Offline
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Bay of Islands, NZ
Tike, to follow up on your point, they are obviously making more money selling crappy roto-molded boats to people who do not know any better.
The thing about the smaller companies is that they are focused on product and not profit.
Look at Daryll, his 14 is created from a desire to make something wonderful and World-beating. He cares about longevity as well and makes the boats out of best possible but his road is up hill as his logo is not known.
Once roto is up and running China will be pumping them out at 10 for every carbon or kevlar boat produced and the beach cat world will be drowned in mediocraty.

Last edited by warbird; 06/27/07 06:13 PM.
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: Wouter] #110464
06/27/07 06:16 PM
06/27/07 06:16 PM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,147
Bay of Islands, NZ
W
warbird Offline
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Bay of Islands, NZ
Wouter, can you imagine the money Hobie will make out of retro fitting 200,000 H16 with spinnies and snuffers!
2.5 K for some sail cloth and a bit of plastic...easy to post...Kerchingggg baby!

Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: mmiller] #110465
06/27/07 06:39 PM
06/27/07 06:39 PM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,147
Bay of Islands, NZ
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warbird Offline
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Bay of Islands, NZ
That is what the people are saying here...Hobie are making simple business decisions...and not taking responsiiblity for who they are, what legacy they have and what actually makes the World go around. It is time for business to understand that Ideal and quality trumps dollars and mediochrety every time. We look to people like Hobie for leadership and what do we get????Simple business decisions..it is the money mantra.
A chicken in every pot and a rotomold in every driveway.
If ever there was a reason not to encourage people into cat sailing it is this.
When I got my first cat it was a fibreglass PT, beater. That was 25 years ago and that boat is still a good little boat that sails fast and can be updated into a flyier. My boats since, while second hand have all had integrity until I have an excellent Hydra 16, Nacra 14 Squared and Taipan..... all still excellent sail boats and one is 25 years old......
vibrant shmibrant, Hobie reaks of midmanagement and design graduates. Rather than gettting rid of boat makers, get rid of a few people in the office.

Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: warbird] #110466
06/27/07 07:17 PM
06/27/07 07:17 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,252
California
mmiller Offline
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California
Gotta love it when the people like this jump on the band wagon against Hobie when we make a change. Some posters are truly uninformed and just plain full of hot air at times.

This is a company run by excellent management and very intelligent engineers along with a staff that all get a say in product development. A company that was closer to folding in the early 90's and twice sold. A company that is now 10 times the size and, once again, successful at what we do. A company that continues to sell quality products for people who love to sail. A company that still has half its line of sailboats in glass production.

Sorry fellas, I take this quite personally.


Hobie Cat Forums
Matt Miller
Hobie Cat Company
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: warbird] #110467
06/27/07 07:17 PM
06/27/07 07:17 PM

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Quote
Hobie are making simple business decisions...and not taking responsiiblity for who they are


On the contrary - Hobie are making simple business decisions ...and taking responsibility for who they are.

I'm no fan of their general strategy with respect to SMOD, but I'm a big fan of their right to spend their money how they choose to, just as I do mine (after tax of course).

Mark.

Last edited by MarkMT; 06/27/07 11:10 PM.
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: mmiller] #110468
06/27/07 08:32 PM
06/27/07 08:32 PM
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South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Quote
This material must also be processed before it shelf hardens.


Matt, what is "shelf hardening"?

I agree that you can't justify maintaining production status of something you are selling just a dozen or so a year on. While the romanticists of the sport would want to believe that the manufacturers have some moral obligation to support the things we love, it's sometimes just not good business sense to do so.


Jake Kohl
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: Jake] #110469
06/27/07 09:10 PM
06/27/07 09:10 PM
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Hobie has to do what Hobie does best- make the rotomolded cats that sell well and make money for the company. What pisses people off? The fact that Hobie is drifting (or motoring) away from high performance boats?

And yeah, what is shelf hardening??

Last edited by PTP; 06/27/07 09:11 PM.
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: mmiller] #110470
06/27/07 09:33 PM
06/27/07 09:33 PM
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Northfield Mn
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Matt- I know advertising is expensive, but I've never seen an ad for hobie, other than sailing magazines. (I did see a couple of Bravo's in the new 007 movie)Our sport, regardless of builder, needs to be made cool again. It sounds really stupid, but looking back I think the day I bought my first boat was borderline spiritual event. On some small scale it changed my life for the better, and honestly that isn't something that happens all that often unintentionally with out loads of effort. I think that too many people view sailing catamarans as a black art. Something that only an elite few can grasp. Only an elite few get to perfect it, but thats the case with just about everything.


I'm boatless.
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: ejpoulsen] #110471
06/27/07 10:25 PM
06/27/07 10:25 PM
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Quote
...this does not bode well for the future of Catamaran racing in general.


I was about to send in my registration for one of my favorite regattas (High Sierra Regatta run by a yacht club) when I noticed in the NOR that they had dropped the multihull class...

...I guess I'll go buy a Laser.


Come on down to Ventura - we have cat friendly yacht clubs that welcome the beachcats. AAMOF we have a race this weekend, one July 14th, and August 25th for Ocean distance races, and the Blue Water Regatta July 7th.

Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: PTP] #110472
06/27/07 10:56 PM
06/27/07 10:56 PM
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“an island in the Pacifi...
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And yeah, what is shelf hardening??

That's when Viagara sits on a shelf beyond it's use by date.


US Sail Level 2 Instructor
US Sail Level 3 Coach
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: mmiller] #110473
06/27/07 11:15 PM
06/27/07 11:15 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
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Lakewood, Colorado
MUST429 Offline
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Lakewood, Colorado
Matt,

I am going to take issue with several of your points.

You said
" It is a fact of business life that products reach the end of their sales cycle at some point."

I say every market you can name is somewhat cyclic. To make long term decisions based on sales figures during a down cycle is short sighted and irresponsible. To abandon all of the customers that have made your company what it is today is just plain arrogant. If it weren't for your loyal customers, your company would have never made it to the point of recovery. Now that the company is cutting the fat hog on the rotomold products to abandon virtually all of your other classes * is corporate arrogance at it's worst. Here's a question you might want to think about, what is HCC going to do when the Chinese or the Koreans start building better rotomold products at half the price of yours and you don't have anything else left in the wagon to sell ?
*(Excepting of course the H-16,and it is my understanding that just in the past few years started to sell enough units to save itself)

You said
"We cannot continue to build a product when that-product requires the purchase of large lots of materials where much of it would go unused."

I say your company is taking the easy way out and not looking very hard at options that would allow you to continue to build these boats and remain profitable. Reach out to the customers, many of them have ideas and resources that you haven't even yet considered. Talk to the Class Association, come clean about what it might take to keep these fleets alive. Think outside the box. Try to find ways to save the fleets that made your company great instead of focusing on the excuses for killing the class's

You said
"We will, of course, continue to support Hobie 20 replacement part needs through our Parts and Accessories department as we are the 14, 17, 18, 21"

In other words, you will continue to sell parts as long as it suits you AND is profitable. I wish I could just skim the cream in my business too.

You said
"I believe we will continue to be the leader in bringing new sailors into sailing in general... and high performance sailing specifically as these consumers progress in their sailing experience".

I believe you are rolling your smokes at both ends. Your Company doesn't bring anyone into sailing !
There are huge area's of the country that don't even have a Hobie dealer, and even larger area's where the Hobie dealer is all but invisible.
Here in Colorado, we only have ONE sailboat retailer left, and he is hanging on by a thread.
YOUR BEST SALES PEOPLE ARE THE PEOPLE SAILING YOUR PRODUCTS.
And you are systematically abandoning them
Oh, and if you look at the percentages of "performance sailors" compared to families and weekend warriors, your have a screwed up idea of what your target market should be.

You said
"This is a company run by excellent management and very intelligent engineers along with a staff that all get a say in product development.

I say, You may have good management but your marketing and customer relations department leaves a lot to be desired.
Intelligent engineers are great, one of the best engineers I ever knew was at the same time the poorest businessmen I ever knew. He spent most of his life broke until he hired someone to manufacture and market his product. Once he did that, he was financially successful as well. Point being if you are letting engineers have input to marketing and sales departments, you are fools. Let engineers do what engineers do and tell them to stay the heck out of marketing.
Market your strengths, you have strong stable great fleets out there full of great salespeople. Find a way to support them, they will support you back in ways you cannot even imagine. Oh yeah and while you are at it, keep the accountants in their place too.

You said
"A company that is now 10 times the size and, once again, successful at what we do. A company that continues to sell quality products for people who love to sail. A company that still has half its line of sailboats in glass production."

I say, hurrah for you, if you are so damn successful, why do you keep cutting great boats out of production because of a cyclic downturn in the market.
The pendulum WILL swing the other way. But if you have discontinued everything but the H-16 you leave the entire market open to your competitors.
Quality product??? Singular, One, an only lonely H-16 for the weekend/family sailor that likes to compete in a class.
Half its line of sailboats in glass production?
The Tiger is built in Europe!
The 16 is now built in Australia!
Like it or not, the Tiger is too much boat for many people.
Like it or not, the H-16 is NOT a one size fits all boat.
Like it or not, the future of class catamaran racing is not going to be the Wave or the Getaway.
Last but not least, nature abhors a vacuum, and like it or not, your customer base will drift away to your competitors.

You said
"Sorry fellas, I take this quite personally."


Matt, I have loved my Hobie 18 from the first day I sailed it over 27 years ago.
I have preached to anyone that would listen that a Hobie was the only boat to buy.
To watch your company abandon me and my friends, well, I take it quite personally too.


Respectfully,
Stephen Cooley
Hobie Division 5 Chairman


Life is not about waiting for the storms to pass...
It's about learning to dance in the rain
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: MUST429] #110474
06/27/07 11:56 PM
06/27/07 11:56 PM
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California
mmiller Offline
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Stephen,

I could not have illustrated this better than you did with this statement...

Quote
I have loved my Hobie 18 from the first day I sailed it over 27 years ago.


Look, I love Hobie sailing too, but the bank is king. Ya gotta pay the bank... and frankly, the 20 might have been discontinued many years ago if some people would have had their way. It is Hobie enthusiasts such as myself and others at the company that kept some of these models on the market as long as they have been.

Quote
why do you keep cutting great boats out of production because of a cyclic downturn in the market.


It may be cyclic for sailing in general, but it is normally called a bell curve for a specific product. There is a beginning, peak and a tapper off to the end.

I am not going to get into a pissing match over the rest of the statements.


Hobie Cat Forums
Matt Miller
Hobie Cat Company
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: mmiller] #110475
06/28/07 12:01 AM
06/28/07 12:01 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,252
California
mmiller Offline
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"Shelf hardening" is a term we use to describe the natural hardening of aluminum extrusions over time. It doesn't take that long to become a problem. Another issue is corrosion. We have to bend and machine, harden and anodize before they harden or corrode.


Hobie Cat Forums
Matt Miller
Hobie Cat Company
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: Karl_Brogger] #110476
06/28/07 12:02 AM
06/28/07 12:02 AM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 756
Newport, RI
wildtsail Offline
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Matt,
Would I be correct in saying that the cost of materials that caused the decision to cease the 20's production is more so in parts like the beams, mast, sails and etc. rather than the fiberglass production itself?
One of the reasons Vanguard is so sucessful is that many parts are shared (ie. the 420, V15, FJ share mast and boom extrusions and the Laser, Pico, Zuma, Sunfish and etc. do as well.) This brings the materials cost down. While Hobie has to buy different parts for all their boats.

Also, best selling small boat in the world? How many Adventure Islands are you selling?
-Todd

Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: wildtsail] #110477
06/28/07 12:12 AM
06/28/07 12:12 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,252
California
mmiller Offline
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Quote
How many Adventure Islands are you selling?


Lots of them...


Yes, aluminum is the biggest issue as I had mentioned. Common parts? We know the benefit, but this one is well down the road having been designed in the early 90's.


Hobie Cat Forums
Matt Miller
Hobie Cat Company
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: mmiller] #110478
06/28/07 03:27 AM
06/28/07 03:27 AM
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Bay of Islands, NZ
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"I have loved my Hobie 18 for 27 years...."
I can't see anyone saying that about their rotomolded Getaway!

Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: ] #110479
06/28/07 05:14 AM
06/28/07 05:14 AM
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North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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In the US Performance are apparently promoting the SL16 pretty strongly. In Europe, do you see the SL16 and the Nacra 500 as competitors?



Good point.

Here in NL I haven't hear much at all about the SL16. I also think that Sirena is the official agent for the SL16 in Europe and so Nacra Europe may not have much to do with it. That possibility good well be a serious drawback. I hear the SL16 is doing well in France but their doesn't seem to be much interaction between France and the rest of Europe in the way of catamarans. The only exception to that rule would be Hobie cat France. What I'm saying here is that France seems to be very inwardly focussed with respect to catamaran builders. Many types of french boats do not get a significantly market share outside of France. The SL16 seems to go the same route.

But indeed the SL16 and Nacra 500 are direct competitors.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: _flatlander_] #110480
06/28/07 05:51 AM
06/28/07 05:51 AM
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North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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disclaimer :

of course my comments are all my personal opinions. I compose them simply by looking at a few key economic pointers. Up till now these have been dependable, but they still not garantee anything.

And I also warn against the selfforfilling profecy syndrome. So please fight my facts and assumptions were ever needed or possible. This to get the picture more clear.

end disclaimer.


Quote

Funny you would mention the FX-ONE as serious questions are being asked among the Hobie faithful. My question was exactly how is it doing in the EU and will it become the next "dead boat"?



I said that the FX-one is on the right rope at this time. This class needs something to happen in the next few years or I suspect it will go the way of the Fox. The latter was regarded as a well behaved boat but it failed because it couldn't establish a large enough fleet of sailors economically supporting the class. Basically, even good designs can fail. Of course the fact that it failed to enter the US market sufficiently because it was too slow compared to the US inter-20 contributed, but that still doesn't make it a bad F20 design.

FX-one in the EU is in my opinion not very well established. For several years I looked up the EU championship results and general race results and it doesn't seem to gain much critical mass. For a design that has been launched in 2000 and directly in the EU market by a major boat builder, I think this to be telling. I haven't sensed my of a FX-one class structure. The only recurring activity of the FX-one are the European championships, but these are always held together with the Hobie Tiger EU championships and as such just piggy back along. I think even the Fox still has EU championships this way, but I need to check that.

Also in UK and NL the F16's are directly challenging the FX-one (and I-17's). In the UK the race has been run I'm afraid and in NL were are neck to neck but with the F16 still in her growth phase (launched here in earnest in 2004). And I need to say here that the F16 class in NL is still very small. It is supported and grown by well intending amateurs and only 1 (very modest) agentship. It is striking that such a group can compete directly with a massive builder/dealer network like Hobie. That really shouldn't be happening !

I believe the FX-one is good modern boat, so it is not so much the design itself that is the issue. It is the class structure and the support by the FX-one sailors to that class. This is too weak at this time. This is also largely caused by the fact that no area outside of the EU supports the FX-one at all. The only area outside EU that has FX-one's is the USA and there are only a handful there. I think Aus has 2 or 3 old dealer demo's sailing and apart from that I know of no exported boats.

So my opinion is that the FX-one needs to be heavily promoted by the Hobie company/network or it mirculously needs to grow in other place then NL and Spain or its economic markers will keep pointing downward.

The FX-one has got one thing going for it and that is its role in the hobie product line. It is afterall the ONLY hobie singlehander product in production at this time. Also it is the only modern entry boat by hobie at this time. Apart from the rotomoulded stuff it only has the Hobie 16 and Hobie Tiger as companions. Discontinuing the FX-one is a big loss to such a short "performance oriented" boat listing. The hobie 15 and Hobie dragoon are not really performance boats or entry boats for adults. The Hobie 15 is also a very rare boat, more rare then the FX-one.


Quote

As one local 20 sailor asked, "Are we all supposed to start racing Getaways?"


It appears that is where the Hobie corp USA is allowing "the bottom line" to push them towards.

It may even be worse for hobie sailors. Eventually they may have to consider changing to a non-hobie class. One that is run more by the passion for catamarans then the suffocating "bottom line".

Eventually, catamaran companies need to accept that no one is getting rich of building performance oriented beach catamarans. Any young business student will strike-out this productline as soon as he sees the ratio between effort and return of investment. In companies employing such managers these products are eternally at risk.

The only way building performance oriented beach catamarans makes business sense (unless you can corner a large market) is as show cases for your skills. Where these high flying products build a public perception of your capabilities that reflects well on their other products which do have a good return of investment. One such example is a combined "boat builder sailmaker" business model like Goodall/AHPC. Apart from that personal passions and person fortunes are the sustaining factors. Were a business owner does it for the love of it while breaking even or making a very modest profit. Hobie at this time does not seem to have either of these concepts enclosed in their business and the FX-one has not achieved a sufficiently large corner of the market yet.


Maybe you also now see the attractiveness of Formula classes to builders and suppliers. The gains from new parts is too small to lead to an arms race, but the eternal modifying and upgrading of boats maintains a market of parts and replacements that earns these companies their profits. In strict OD classes you can only earn on the new boats and the very few replacements for broken parts. In formula classes, there is a market extension because nearly all owners personalize their boats and upgrade every few years (not buying a whole new boat, but upgrading their current boat to the next level). Upgrading by buying a totally new boat is only viable for owners when the boat is easily sold second hand for a very good price and in small classes like the FX-one this is difficult if not very difficult.

As you see there are many angles to this situation.


Quote

A problem seems to be the vast majority of inland lake (Hobie) sailors are allergic to kites.


Well, all kite boats can be sailed well without the spinnakers, so why don't they just agree to race eachother without them ?

Safes you some money as well as a spinnaker does add 1000 bucks to a modern cat retail price.

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 06/28/07 06:01 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: Wouter] #110481
06/28/07 06:07 AM
06/28/07 06:07 AM
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West coast of Norway
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Quote
"Shelf hardening" is a term we use to describe the natural hardening of aluminum extrusions over time.


This is news to me, that alu extrusions harden over time? What is going on, oxydation below the surface level? Does this mean that old masts are suspect as they stiffen and hence become more brittle?

Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: mmiller] #110482
06/28/07 06:23 AM
06/28/07 06:23 AM
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Wouter Offline
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Quote

Aluminum extruders are our number one issue for discontinuing product that is at low production volume. We have to buy thousands of pounds of extrusion when we do.


Interesting. One wonders how small builders like VectorWorks Marine and AHPC handle this. Their stock size is at max 500 kg or 1000 lbs, that is about 35 masts.

The new custom beams for the Aussie blade comprise an initial stock size of 250 kg (500 lbs), about 60 beams (or 30 sets for 30 boats).

Total stock costs for the alu (masts and beams) is not more then one fully fitted boat. Through sharing of production batches the costs have been reduced further. Although it must be said that he fact that they use straight beams instead of curved ones is helping.

In their opinion, producing and stocking hulls is much more of an issue.

In Australia, small classes who lost builder support have found a neat way to compensate for the alu "issue", the class itself owns the extrusion dye and the class itselfs maintains a stock of masts and beams. And this is really not as expensive as it seems, so maybe this is an idea for the H20 owners ?

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: PTP] #110483
06/28/07 06:30 AM
06/28/07 06:30 AM
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Wouter Offline
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Quote

And yeah, what is shelf hardening??



Matt Miller's version of "being uninformed and just plain full of hot air."

Sorry Matt.

Wouter

(Aluminium age hardens, a proces that is artificially induced and accellerated during production to improve the material properties of alu masts. The same proces, although very slowly, continues even when the mast is on the boat and may well take decades before it effects becomes significant. It is not a reason for not using 6 year old masts on new boats)


Last edited by Wouter; 06/28/07 07:00 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Y'all are wondering why? [Re: 16nut] #110484
06/28/07 06:42 AM
06/28/07 06:42 AM
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 195
Straight Outta Hell
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Straight Outta Hell
I guess y'all don't know that Hobie USA's big market is to resorts and rental operations who want the plastic 'things.' Resorts buy large numbers at once and buy somewhat frequently what with the destruction rate of such hard-used boats. Hobie is merely answering to their market.


Engineers running the biz? Absolutely, obviously, not in our case here. Hobie is demonstrating what happens when MBAs run the whole show. First: the outing of X-boats from regattas, now: the discontinuation of classes. If engineers have their preferred choices, they would be producing what they think are the kewlest highest-tech products at the most efficient production price possible. They would care less what happened at regattas, for that has nothing to do with design and production. No decent engineer wants to touch marketing with a 20-foot pole, and that's why they're 'bad' at it.


This sig would be something witty, but the censors are against that.
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #110485
06/28/07 06:50 AM
06/28/07 06:50 AM
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South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Quote
Quote
"Shelf hardening" is a term we use to describe the natural hardening of aluminum extrusions over time.


This is news to me, that alu extrusions harden over time? What is going on, oxydation below the surface level? Does this mean that old masts are suspect as they stiffen and hence become more brittle?


I've heard of "age hardening" (precipitation hardening) but that term is a bit of a misnomer - it's a heat treatment process...I've never heard that aluminum extrusions gradually harden over time...or maybe "age hardening" is a quick way to do what might naturally take place over a large period of time?


Jake Kohl
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #110486
06/28/07 07:38 AM
06/28/07 07:38 AM
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Wouter Offline
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All engineering metals are alloy's of some degree as the pure metals themselfs have often rather poor material properties. The basic principle of alloy's is that material properties are improved by enclosing elements (atoms, bubbles or "layers") of dissimilar metals inside the structure of the base metal. These enclosures pre tension the framework (through dislocations) that links all atoms to eachother and as such resist stretching or deformation by blocking reordering of the atom/molecule grid. Often they also change the chemical properties of the material, increasing corrosion resistance for example.

In effect alloys are a solution of the base metal with much lower quantities of dissimilar metals; a solution that has been frozen into a "fixed" state. However this state is not entirely "fixed", overtime and very slowly, these atoms/bubbles/dislocations may relocate themselfs or change the shape/size/composition. With it a significant portion of the alterations to the (alloy) material properties may occur.

This natural tendency to slow change over time is often much accellerated artificially during production to "soften" material or "pre-harden", i.e. to arrive at the exact desired material properties. This is the intent of heat treatments of alloys. It is then frozen down to a much much much slower speed so these properties are maintained within certain margins for many years.

Some alloys became softer over time other harden. Everything is possible depending on the initial state the solution was frozen into.

But shelf hardening is just non-sense. Because the same proces would also occur after the boat was sold. So if someone claims that selfhardening over say 3 years makes stock alu masts unfit for retail then they are also implicetly saying that the same stuff has become "worn-down" on a 3-year old boat as well. Not something customers want to hear.

Having said this, it is also not necessary on beach cat alu products like beams and masts. Nice stable alloys are currently available for that. The only item I came across that had significant aging problems were the alu castings on Prindles (hobies ?). And even then it would take 10 to 15 years to be significant (which is still not the same as unacceptable).

The only exception would be when certain manipulations were required to the items after being extruded. Certain machining activities and such, but still I have not found this to be a big issue with modern extruded alu alloys. Maybe Hobie has to do something to their beams that is an exception to this general rule but I wouldn't know what. With regard to mast I can't think of a single activity that would make building up masts problematic after say 5 or even 10 years.

I know that on modern designs with straight beams, straight V-ed dolphinstrikers and obviously straight masts; you don't need to do any machining after extruding, anodising and cutting them to length at the extruders yard. Pretty much all you need to do is to drill holes, rivet/bolt/screw parts into place and cut the sail entry slot. None of this is ever a problem.

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 06/28/07 07:41 AM.
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: Jake] #110487
06/28/07 07:58 AM
06/28/07 07:58 AM
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North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Quote

(precipitation hardening) but that term is a bit of a misnomer - it's a heat treatment process...


I'm not sure if you can read this Jake, but the reason it is called "precipitation hardening" and not plain "heat treatments hardening" is because there two ways to harden metals which both use heat treatments to regulate the amound of hardening.

Precipitation hardening uses the effects of enclosed dissimilar metal inside a base metal. Here the heat treatment affects the size, shape and distribution of the enclosures.

Plain heat treatment hardening (English name ?) use the ability of a certain metals to change their own metal structure to different forms. These changes are nearly always the results of temperature. As such there is no need for any alloy elements and as such it is a different hardening method to precipitation hardening. A good example of this plain hear hardening is normal iron/steel. Heat it and then cool it very rapidly and it will became very hard (and brittle). This can then be soften again by mildly heating it for a given period of time at a lower temperature. Allowing portions of the dissimilarity to morph back to less hard grid structures.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: mmiller] #110488
06/28/07 08:18 AM
06/28/07 08:18 AM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,187
38.912, -95.37
_flatlander_ Offline
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_flatlander_  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,187
38.912, -95.37
Quote
"Shelf hardening" is a term we use to describe the natural hardening of aluminum extrusions over time. It doesn't take that long to become a problem. Another issue is corrosion. We have to bend and machine, harden and anodize before they harden or corrode.

Still looking at my 20 and trying to figure which extrusion you bent?
Skip the black and clear anodize it, black anodized aluminum doesn't age gracefully and I can paint the comp tip.
Black will be "way cool" on your plastic boats, it was cool in the 80's, today I don't care.


John H16, H14
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: Wouter] #110489
06/28/07 08:35 AM
06/28/07 08:35 AM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,187
38.912, -95.37
_flatlander_ Offline
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_flatlander_  Offline
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Quote
In Australia, small classes who lost builder support have found a neat way to compensate for the alu "issue", the class itself owns the extrusion dye and the class itselfs maintains a stock of masts and beams. And this is really not as expensive as it seems, so maybe this is an idea for the H20 owners ?Wouter

...and the 18 owners, and the 17 owners.
What class besides Mosquito has done this?
Who and where is the sugar daddy that will buy molds? (IF Hobie would sell the molds)
What, about $5K (17) to $8K (20) for a one-zy run set of hulls?

I suppose a special dispensation may be requested to satisfy IHCA General Rule 6. NON HOBIE CAT COMPANY MANUFACTURERS OF EQUIPMENT and written approval from the IHCA can be obtained to be designated as "Hobie Class Legal"


John H16, H14
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: warbird] #110490
06/28/07 08:56 AM
06/28/07 08:56 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 975
South Louisiana, USA
Clayton Offline
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Clayton  Offline
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Posts: 975
South Louisiana, USA
Quote
"I have loved my Hobie 18 for 27 years...."
I can't see anyone saying that about their rotomolded Getaway!


Maybe if Hobie didn't make the 18's last so long some of those sailors would have bought new ones! Obviously as a customer of 27 years ago he expects Hobie to sit around with new boats until he finally wants another one.

As a buisness owner (and most of you are not) we have a problem called employees, they tend to want to get paid at the end of the week! Each company does what it deems best for their bottom line, if someone out there can do it better by all means get out the check book and make it happen. Vectorworks seems to be doing that (lets see what happens in a couple of years with additional models and waning sales of the older style). I think thats great for them! I wish I could buy one of those Blades.

Blasting Matt about what Hobie is doing is like telling one of my employees you don't like how I'm running my business... he's got nothing to do with what decisions I make so you're wasting your time.

Just my rant,

Clayton

Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: Clayton] #110491
06/28/07 09:50 AM
06/28/07 09:50 AM
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 182
Appleton, WI
blockp Offline
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blockp  Offline
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Posts: 182
Appleton, WI
I was enjoying reading this thread, but I’m beginning to just shake my head at it. There are a lot of people brighter than me on this forum, so please enlighten me.

Maybe I’m off base, but I just don’t understand everyone slamming Hobie for making a business decision. I can’t sit in my board meetings with a straight face and tell the other members that even though product line A is no longer selling and we’re loosing loads of money trying to keep the line open, I vote we should keep running it... I can’t show my wife the end-of-year numbers on my properties and tell her that this one over here is loosing money, but I really like the tenants there so I don’t want to sell it. It just doesn’t make any logical sense. If it’s loosing money, it’s time to look for other options. Is a company not allowed to evolve over time? Sorry, but a stagnant company is one that’s not going to be around for very long.

A company has to keep money coming in to keep the doors open. A garage hobbyist is different (provided they are not using their hobby for their main income, at that point, they’re no longer a hobbyist anyway), because they don’t have quite the same fixed costs as a business with employees and buildings, hey can handle a slow period in sales. They can just put the hobby on hold for a few months until they get their next order in. With a larger business, you have employees, those employees want to get paid and they don’t really care if sales are up or down, they want their paycheck (oh yeah, and lay-offs aren’t real popular option amongst hourly employees). The bank wants their money for the mortgage on your buildings. The utility company wants to get paid for providing you with lights and heat. Some of these costs are fixed whether you’re selling your product or not.

I don’t understand how everyone on the outside of Hobie thinks they know better than Hobie to make this decision. We’re not seeing their financial or sales reports. We don’t know the real numbers. Do you really think Hobie hasn’t looked at their processes in building this boat and tried to trim the fat? If they have any business sense at all, they’ve been doing that since the boat was first being designed and prototyped and have continued to try to save money in the build process since that day.

On the issue of Hobie abandoning their customers… that’s a whole different topic than why they’re closing a line. Don’t mix the two. Maybe they are abandoning their loyal customers, but I still think it’s their right to evolve in any direction they think will make them money and keep their business thriving. Isn’t it better for a company to close a product line and stay in business than to just slowly tailspin into bankruptcy? How can you fault anyone for making a business decision that will keep them profitable in the long run?

Obviously, just my opinion, blast away <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
Paul

Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: Clayton] #110492
06/28/07 09:56 AM
06/28/07 09:56 AM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 695
Ft. Pierce, Fl. USA
Seeker Offline
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Seeker  Offline
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Posts: 695
Ft. Pierce, Fl. USA
For Hobie, evidently the romance is over…Her passion for what you long for is gone…Hobie is just a material girl in a material world. Just like the X-girl friend in high school… or an X-wife… they have “moved on”… “grown in a different direction”…and their “needs” are not being met (turning a profit) by their faithful followers. She has found a new “sugar daddy” the Resort/Rental market. You…my friend…are a faded memory. It was good while it lasted but “that was then…this is now”. Can’t pay current bills from sales profits earned 10 years ago.

So to all you diehard Hobie fans out there that are heartbroken…suck it up…yes, you will take a financial hit because your boat is in the dead boat society (a fate suffered by all boats eventually)…but don’t despair…other girls are out there (Hi-Performance oriented Cat Builders) that would love to build a relationship with you…who knows?... maybe Hobie is doing you a favor by “letting you go”. Now you can broaden your horizons and discover new catamaran possibilities that were not available while you were “married” to Hobie. Quit groveling…it won’t do any good, and it’s down right embarrassing to watch…Just like the x-girl friend or x-wife that dumped you, Hobie doesn’t want you back…unless it is on their terms, plastic…Go your separate ways, hold on to the good memories and let go of the rest…

Your free…A new passion a waits…choose wisely and enjoy every minute of it.

Regards,
Bob

Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: Clayton] #110493
06/28/07 10:23 AM
06/28/07 10:23 AM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 216
Lakewood, Colorado
MUST429 Offline
enthusiast
MUST429  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 216
Lakewood, Colorado
[quote
Maybe if Hobie didn't make the 18's last so long some of those sailors would have bought new ones! Obviously as a customer of 27 years ago he expects Hobie to sit around with new boats until he finally wants another one.

Blasting Matt about what Hobie is doing is like telling one of my employees you don't like how I'm running my business... he's got nothing to do with what decisions I make so you're wasting your time.

Just my rant,

Clayton [/quote]

Just for the record, I bought the FIRST of my brand new Hobie 18's 27 years ago. The last New 18 I bought was delivered to me on a Wednesday in October of 2003, the same week the announcement was made that they were discontinuing production on the H-18.

Further, over the past 6 years, I have bought and refurbished 10 Hobie 18's using factory parts whenever possible. Looking back over my purchases I have spent not spent less than $1000 on HOBIE parts in any one year, and some years I have spent significantly more than that.

I have not yet had the opportunity to make my feelings known to any of the rest of "Hobie Management", and their stable of "intelligent engineers" aren't posting here so I cannot address them either. However, if we don't use the path of communication that Matt Miller provides, how will our thoughts ever make it to the upper echelon? If we just roll over and say nothing, HCC will think it is just fine that they abandon us.

Having been self employed for over 30 years, I do have a fair understanding of some of the issues facing HCC.

I certainly do not understand ALL of the issues but it seems to me that there must be a way to approach this that does not include killing off all of the classes with the exception of the Hobie 16.

Stephen


Life is not about waiting for the storms to pass...
It's about learning to dance in the rain
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: _flatlander_] #110494
06/28/07 11:14 AM
06/28/07 11:14 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Beside the Mosquito's I think the Arrows did something similar.

I'm not trying to start a revolution here but how about walking up to Hobie US and claim that it is in their interest to GIVE you the old dyes (moulds) for free as compensation for discontinuing to "do" the H17, TheMightyHobie18, H20. Afterall the dye (mould) has already been payed for and is not of any use to them any more as they won't be ordering any new batches. You probably have to rename the design but that is no biggy. Just call it the MidWest-20 and be done with it.

The alu extrusions are not the difficult or expensive part. Producing new hulls will be. But I seem to remember that the Mosquito class even owns a set of moulds.

Of course this all will ONLY work when the H17, TheMightyHobie18, H20 sailors can organise themselfs into a strong class organisation outside of the IHCA. With class officials willing to really get into "class work".

Others have done it, so therefor you guys can so too. It just takes a can-do mentality and the willingness of the boat owners to invest in their own futures. It will certainly be something else then transferring your IHCA membership fee once a year and pontificating about 100.000 boats sold.

So the real question will be how strong these owners love their boats and how willing they are to go the extra mile and make it survive as a class.

But I can tell you that if these guys succeed at this that the enjoyment of being part of the surviving class will be heaps more. You'll be proud of what all the members of the class will have achieved by working together and nobody will able to take that away from you. That is a great rush.

I say; go for it !

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 06/28/07 11:24 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: 16nut] #110495
06/28/07 01:07 PM
06/28/07 01:07 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,459
Annapolis,MD
Keith Offline
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Keith  Offline
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Posts: 1,459
Annapolis,MD
[Linked Image]

R.I.P. Hobie-20...

Sad day, but not unexpected.

When I was a lad I lusted after the Hobie-16. Ironically, I've never sailed a 16...

But my first beach cat was a Hobie-14 I got after getting out of college. I remember being dismayed at the announcement that 14s would no longer built in the U.S., and I thought "what a shame", as I thought then and now that with a little marketing that boat is the perfect answer to people sailing Lasers.

I moved up to the 18 and remember feeling dismayed when the announcement came that 18 production would cease. I thought "what a shame", because I thought then and still think that the 18 was about the best dual-purpose cat ever made - great for day sailing and blasting around and a good racer too.

I moved up to the Hobie-20 and really enjoyed that boat. Although I quickly moved to the 6.0 (better boat for the heavy sailor), I still have a soft spot for the H-20 for the way it sailed. I also happen to think it's one of the prettiest beach cats (Tornado is my other choice). But lack of updates to the boat and sail plan said to me its time was running out. So even though I haven't sailed a 20 in couple of year, I still feel "what a shame", as I think if some updates were allowed it might have had a longer life.

And no, none of those boats were bought new by me. But I can't begin to total up all the Hobie factory parts I bought through the years fixing those boats up to sail and race. But I understand you need to sell boats to keep the lines open.

Oddly enough, when word came that 6.0 production was to cease, I didn't feel that bad. As much as I really like the 6.0, there was already a follow-on boat from Performance that answered the need being expressed by the 6.0 sailors, and that was the I-20. And as they've been dropping boats, other boats have been introduced as well. Less of a feeling of death, more of a feeling of moving on.

After moving to the N-20, my first impression was that the helm felt like my old H-20 - responsive, light, and lively.

So I guess that's why I feel worse when Hobie cancels a boat, because there's nothing to move to in the Hobie line up. It feels more final. And whether we currently sail Hobie boats or not, we all owe Hobie credit for the revolution that gave the whole thing its breath of life in the first place.

But, like the rest of us, I feel compelled to offer my $0.02 for some things that could have been changed. And I'll admit up front that I'm not a manufacturer/engineer. But, I was always amazed at the number of unique casted bits and extrusions on my 18. It seemed at the time that if things like the mast step were changed to the standard post/ball of the other boats, the boom used the same extrusion as the 20, the hulls were modifed to use a straight beam or one without casted end bits, the tiller connectors used from the 20, etc. the cost would be reduced on those items quite a bit. And that would have helped the economies of scale needed to make the other boats profitable as well. The 16 could have have done that as well (at least the step, boom, and tiller connectors), again adding to the numbers for the bulk orders of castings. As the boats get cancelled the opportunites for that happening lessen and go away. It sometimes seemed that the desire to not ever change things for the sake of the OD class meant nothing could even be done to help production. And again I feel that if the 20 could have modernized a little some excitement and boat sales might still be there.

It's interesting times for this sport. I was thinking about it all last night and realized I don't remember when the official plug was pulled on Prindle. Has it been? Seems to have quietly disappeared. We should have had a wake. In this year alone, Performance has been sold overseas, Hobie quits the 20, and my other boating love, Corsair, has moved to Vietnam. And for all the good and sound business decisions that led to all that, it still feels a little odd as a multihull sailor. I wish them all success.

But this year we have four new F-16 Blades from Vectorworks in our club, joining the the active Taipan we already had. The N-20 has formed a OD class at the local "official" yacht club. So it looks good, at least locally. I hope that Vectorworks continues to step up, what they're doing looks good so far.

We've gotten the word out about the sport and we have people looking to buy (mostly used, some new), sail, and race catamarans. The local Hobie dealer doesn't notice, and that's sad. But they have less and less to offer, and don't want to promote what they do offer as it pertains to the sport.

So, R.I.P. Hobie-20. Welcome to the Dead Boat Society. As always, you'll always be welcome at the X-Boat races.

Attached Files
111859-DSCF0935sm.JPG (21 downloads)
Last edited by Keith; 06/28/07 01:30 PM.
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: Keith] #110496
06/28/07 01:17 PM
06/28/07 01:17 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
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West coast of Norway
Not to yank your chain mmiller, but this is in my opinion a weakness to the SMOD concept.
Perhaps you could try selling in the idea of donating the moulds at least to the class so hulls could be buildt in the future? Or releasing measurement templates and converting the H-20 class into something like the Tornado where everyone can build a boat. Your PR drones should be able to make something out of that, instead of the current sentiments we see here. Just a suggestion..


Now I am wondering how long it takes for an alu mast to 'harden' enough as to make it useless/unreliable..

Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #110497
06/28/07 01:21 PM
06/28/07 01:21 PM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 117
Northern VA
bsquared Offline
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Northern VA
Hobie has never made real money off of racers (well, not since the 80s, anyway). The resorts and rentals help, but the MAJORITY of their income (I'm guessing) has been and will continue to be Mom and Pop weekender who want a boat to putz around in; a large percentage of these boats will sit a lot of the time. They sell more kayaks than sailboats now, even WITH the cheap import competition. I bet the 16 still gets some crossover sales from this "fun" market AND the rental area AND a heck of a lot of parts sales; ain't nobody (statistically speaking) buying a Tiger or 20 to fool around with on the lake, and I can't imagine a rental place that would put up with the maintenance and liability issues of renting these boats (especially crew-chewer 20s :-).

The cat racing scene is declining in the US. Look at Div 11, covering most of the Chesapeake Bay and Jersey Shore; some great sailing areas in the most densely populated part of the country. Attendance has been on a down trend since the 80s. We used to have a 10-12 boat 20 fleet; last year the Div Championship was based on a two-boat match race at one regatta. I think I might have the newest 20 in the whole Div with a '98 (that I bought used). The 18s are still hanging in there, and even jumped up a little recently, but only one? of those guys has bought a new boat in the last 5 years. HOW CAN YOU SUPPORT PRODUCTION with those kind of sales in a major market?? How many ex and new racers are now on A-Cats, Nacra 20s, F-16s, and even back to 16s? Even worse, how many are not racing?

Other than the Hobie 18/20 (and Shark?), there isn't ANY viable US one design two-man big boat non-spin cat racing. That market looks pretty f'ing small. Is there viable racing in this segment in Europe? Clearly most cat racers are not boat-loyal; the latest/greatest always sells some boats. IMO a lot of people moved to the 20 because it was faster; some of them didn't like that faster = more work and more fragile, and went back, and some of them liked faster still and moved on. H18s, P19s, H20s, Mystere 6.0s, and N6.0s all came to market as the fastest affordable racer you could get (we'll leave the Tornado out of this for the moment, but where is the US fleet on THAT?). Now the fastest affordable racer you can get has a spin, and all of those other boats have really dropped. Give Hobie and the class association some credit; if we were talking about a brand X 18 and 20, they would have already disappeared as a class. Square tops are new, carbon masts are new, maybe everything will have a spin in the future. A cheap simple Getaway snuffer kit would sell a few, I bet.

Get back to the Shark. Here is an old design limited production class in this same category still hanging in there, and you can still buy a new Shark at a fairly resaonable price (I think). I cannot belive the builder is making enough to live on soley by building Sharks. In theory, the class COULD commission a builder and make new 20s; they could even approve slight changes to account for non-Hobie design and parts (are they still building Hurrican 5.9s in the UK?). I still suspect that even a small builder would be hard pressed to live off of 18 AND 20 sales, but if this builder was also making Mobjacks and Buccaneers (to name two monohull classes that have already gone through this MULTIPLE times), then maybe it works. It does NOT work for a volume manufacturer UNLESS they want to make a statement AND have money to burn.

I hope the boat lives on, and I would LOVE to see a super 20 with square top, carbon mast and skinny daggers, carefully handbuilt and weighing in at 375 or less :-) I don't see Hobie building anymore, though, and I don't blame them. Oh, by the way, expect to see a classified ad next spring for a cherry '98...

Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: bsquared] #110498
06/28/07 01:45 PM
06/28/07 01:45 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,252
California
mmiller Offline
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mmiller  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,252
California
While we are picking on Hobie for cancelling production on the Hobie 20. Lets have a moment of silence for the list of other boats that have passed... and feel free to add, as there are many. Many more have been changed so often that they are not even the same boats.

I know of a few (hey... most are from Performance):

Nacra 5.0
Nacra 5.2
Nacra 5.5uni
Nacra 5.5sl
Nacra 5.7
Nacra 5.8
Nacra 5.5NA
Nacra 18sm
Nacra 18
Nacra 6.0
Nacra 6.0 NA (several vesrions)
Inter 18 (several versions)
Prindle 15
Prindle 16
Prindle 18
Prindle 18-2
Prindle 19
Narca I17
Nacra F18
Super Cat 20
Super Cat 17
Hard Core 16
Sol Cat 18
Sol Cat 20
Alfa Cat
Pacific 18
Escape Velanza 16'7"
Express 6.0 spi
F-31R Tri (Kona SC)
F-33R
Firebird 26
Formula 40
Formula 500
Freestyle 474
Fulmar 19 Tri
G-Cat 5.0 Turbo 1-up rchr
G-Cat 6.1
Gemini 3000
Gemini 3200
Gemini 33.6
Gemini 3400
G-Force 18
G-Force 21
G-Force 21/W1000 w/spi
Gougeon 32
Gulfstream 35
Hardcore 16
Hirondelle 24 M.H.
Hughes 35
Hurricane 500
Hydrosail 21
Isotope Slp 2-up, 250# crew min
Iroquois 31.6
Jump Ahead Cat
Kantola 38
Lynx Cat (14')
MacGregor 36
Maine Cat 22
Malibu Outrigger
Marstrom 18
Musketeer
Mystere 5.5 XL 1-up
Mystere S
Nacra 4.5 Slp 2-up
Nacra 4.5 Uni 1-up
Newick Native 38 Tri
Osborn 42
Paper Tiger
P-Cat 2/18
P-Cat 3/18
PDQ Cat 32
Phoenix
Piver Tri 17 (Textri)
Poison Oak
Prindle 20
Privilege 42
Reynolds 21
Scamp
Sea Spray 15(Mod,Can.)
Sea Spray 18
Seaside 22
Seawind 24
Shearwater Mk IV
Shockwave 37
Sizzler (SA=150)
Stampede
Tahoe 18 Tri
Thai Mk 4
Tiger Cat
Topcat (1-up
Trac 18
TrailerTri 680
TrailerTri 720
Tramp
Tremolino Tri
Ventilo 18HT Uni sp2up
Ventilo 20 Slp 32' spi
Viva 27
Warrior 29
Wilson 20 Tri


Hobie Cat Forums
Matt Miller
Hobie Cat Company
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: Wouter] #110499
06/28/07 01:55 PM
06/28/07 01:55 PM
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 182
Appleton, WI
blockp Offline
member
blockp  Offline
member

Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 182
Appleton, WI
Quote
claim that it is in their interest to GIVE you the old dyes (moulds) for free


When I was a kid, a friends parents owned a glass company. As I understand it, when they were done with a mold, it cost them money to dispose of it and if someone asked them for it, they would give it to them with the stipulation that any boat that came out of the mold would need to have a badge stating the designers name on it.

Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #110500
06/28/07 02:03 PM
06/28/07 02:03 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,252
California
mmiller Offline
veteran
mmiller  Offline
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Posts: 1,252
California
Quote
I am wondering how long it takes for an alu mast to 'harden' enough as to make it useless/unreliable..


The point is that we have to buy raw extrusions. These have minimum runs in the thousands of pounds per die / shape. This material is received here unhardened (they are in an annealed state from the extruder). The concern was for the extrusion not to be wasted / damaged by corrosion or not bend properly (such as the 14,16, 17 and 18 crossbars). We first machine and then send for hardening and anodize. In the case of the 20, the concern is mostly corrosion, the material will have cosmetic blemishes that would be unacceptable. In the case of bending, the material will actually begin to harden naturally and at some point it will not bend properly and sometimes kink. We would have to spend labor on materials that would not be used. That raises the cost per boat to an unreasonable level.


Hobie Cat Forums
Matt Miller
Hobie Cat Company
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: mmiller] #110501
06/28/07 02:08 PM
06/28/07 02:08 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,459
Annapolis,MD
Keith Offline
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Keith  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,459
Annapolis,MD
Quote
While we are picking on Hobie for cancelling production on the Hobie 20. Lets have a moment of silence for the list of other boats that have passed... and feel free to add, as there are many. Many more have been changed so often that they are not even the same boats.

I know of a few (hey... most are from Performance):



No disrespect meant here, but at least Performance has newer boats to choose from. What's Hobie's replacement for the 20...

Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: mmiller] #110502
06/28/07 02:11 PM
06/28/07 02:11 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,252
California
mmiller Offline
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mmiller  Offline
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Posts: 1,252
California
Quote
it is in their interest to GIVE you the old dies (moulds) for free


Before you get too excited about getting the molds... This concept has been raised before, after other models have been discontinued. It doesn't work, but I would think we would always listen to a serious offer.

We will still be using them to build replacement hulls when needed and we are going to continue to supply replacement parts for many, many years to come.


Hobie Cat Forums
Matt Miller
Hobie Cat Company
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: Keith] #110503
06/28/07 02:20 PM
06/28/07 02:20 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,252
California
mmiller Offline
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mmiller  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,252
California
Quote
at least Performance has newer boats to choose from. What's Hobie's replacement for the 20...


The "latest" Performance boat is the I20 right or do they call that the N20 now? We tried the Fox, but that didn't go over well. Why? Honestly? I think the 20 footer market is so small here that we are just stepping out for now. That's the only logical way to go.

We are sticking with the 12-18 footers that sell well.


Hobie Cat Forums
Matt Miller
Hobie Cat Company
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: mmiller] #110504
06/28/07 02:20 PM
06/28/07 02:20 PM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 1,037
Central California
ejpoulsen Offline
old hand
ejpoulsen  Offline
old hand

Joined: May 2002
Posts: 1,037
Central California
Quote
Quote
it is in their interest to GIVE you the old dies (moulds) for free


Before you get too excited about getting the molds... This concept has been raised before, after other models have been discontinued. It doesn't work, but I would think we would always listen to a serious offer.

We will still be using them to build replacement hulls when needed and we are going to continue to supply replacement parts for many, many years to come.


There's a hard core group of Sea Spray devotees out there--didn't they acquire the moulds??? Are Sea Sprays being produced now in someone's garage?


Eric Poulsen
A-class USA 203
Ultimate 20
Central California
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: mmiller] #110505
06/28/07 02:27 PM
06/28/07 02:27 PM

A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A



Quote

Paper Tiger


This doesn't belong here - it has never been dependent on factory production and is still thriving today with both new boats and self-build plans available. However, I think one could reasonably include the Tiger Shark in the list as well as plenty of others indigenous to Australasia.

Mark.

Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: ] #110506
06/28/07 02:39 PM
06/28/07 02:39 PM
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 182
Appleton, WI
blockp Offline
member
blockp  Offline
member

Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 182
Appleton, WI
Quote
Quote

Paper Tiger


This doesn't belong here - it has never been dependent on factory production and is still thriving today with both new boats and self-build plans available. However, I think one could reasonably include the Tiger Shark in the list as well as plenty of others indigenous to Australasia.

Mark.


<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> That's funny. you picked one boat out of a list of 50 or more that he threw out there... really doesn't change his list a whole lot. I think that chuckle warrants a smiley <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I realize you were just trying to make his list more accurate, but it struck me funny.

Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: blockp] #110507
06/28/07 02:57 PM
06/28/07 02:57 PM
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 69
Austin Lake MI
jes9613 Offline
journeyman
jes9613  Offline
journeyman

Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 69
Austin Lake MI
To add to the list
Dingo - My first boat, fond memories of it.

Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: blockp] #110508
06/28/07 03:17 PM
06/28/07 03:17 PM

A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A



Glad I could add a little cheer to your day <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. I absolutely agree with the subtext of Matt's post (hopefully clear from my earlier comments). Just gotta stick up for the mighty PT!

Mark.

Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: mmiller] #110509
06/28/07 03:23 PM
06/28/07 03:23 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 216
Lakewood, Colorado
MUST429 Offline
enthusiast
MUST429  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 216
Lakewood, Colorado
A few glaring omissions from your list

The Hobie 14

The Hobie 17

The Hobie 18

After so many years of being THE Leader in the catamaran sailing community, It distresses me a great deal to see you justify the direction your company is taking by comparing yourselves to so many followers.


Life is not about waiting for the storms to pass...
It's about learning to dance in the rain
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: mmiller] #110510
06/28/07 03:42 PM
06/28/07 03:42 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,459
Annapolis,MD
Keith Offline
veteran
Keith  Offline
veteran

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,459
Annapolis,MD
Quote
Quote
at least Performance has newer boats to choose from. What's Hobie's replacement for the 20...


The "latest" Performance boat is the I20 right or do they call that the N20 now? We tried the Fox, but that didn't go over well. Why? Honestly? I think the 20 footer market is so small here that we are just stepping out for now. That's the only logical way to go.

We are sticking with the 12-18 footers that sell well.


I'm not saying that simply because it is called the N-20 it is a new boat different from the I-20. Point was that when the 6.0na was retired the I-20 was there to pick up. The name change was a marketing decision I'm sure, not cause for derision. You could call the H-20 the Hurricane II if you thought that would help.

Honestly, the imported Fox attempt was half-hearted at best. It didn't take off because it didn't fair well in comparison to the I-20s. I'm not sure you can judge the market for 20 foot cats based on that effort.

Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: MUST429] #110511
06/28/07 04:02 PM
06/28/07 04:02 PM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 117
Northern VA
bsquared Offline
member
bsquared  Offline
member

Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 117
Northern VA
After so many years of being THE Leader in the catamaran sailing community, It distresses me a great deal to see you justify the direction your company is taking by comparing yourselves to so many followers. [/quote]

Come on, we could make the same list with automobiles. The Camaro/Firebird had a lot of supporters, too, but GM dropped that one. That list tells the whole story (and why didn't I pick up on the missing Hobies?). Beachcats are not a static market. It all comes down to how many active racers out there are buying new 14s/17s/18s/20s, because ONLY the active racers are buying them. Clearly not enough for Hobie. If you want to change their mind, build the fleet and find 20 new buyers a year (is 20 enough?). And don't let those 20 guys buy any of the dozens of decent used boats...

Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: bsquared] #110512
06/28/07 04:13 PM
06/28/07 04:13 PM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 117
Northern VA
bsquared Offline
member
bsquared  Offline
member

Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 117
Northern VA
OK, how many I-20s are out there in the US? <500? <300? How many are active? H20 sail numbers got up to the 900s, not sure they sold that many. How many F18s in the US? How many active 19'-20' racers in dead boats (non-Hobie)? <200? On the whole bay, I see <5; probably <5 up in Jersey, too. There's a bigger market for replica Cobras, I bet.

Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: bsquared] #110513
06/28/07 04:21 PM
06/28/07 04:21 PM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 11
Z
Ziv_Levanon Offline
stranger
Ziv_Levanon  Offline
stranger
Z

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 11
I think you guys are really missing the point here...Hobie make Getaways because they SELL!!!! and they SELL because people BUY them... and people BUY them because this is what THEY want. THEY want a boat which takes 5 minutes to rig, takes hardly any time to fix and give them maximum time on the water. it's that simple. It gets many more new people to the water (in a very friendly safe way) and it is the future of sailing and it's biggest hope. out of the thousends of new comers will come the next generation of racers...for sure.

Last edited by Ziv_Levanon; 06/28/07 04:22 PM.

Hobie Cat Dealer Havazellet Hasharon ISRAEL
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: bsquared] #110514
06/28/07 04:21 PM
06/28/07 04:21 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,252
California
mmiller Offline
veteran
mmiller  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,252
California
Quote
After so many years of being THE Leader in the catamaran sailing community


Rest assured, we still are. Hobie is far and away the number one manufacturer of cats and a huge contender for small sailboats in general.

That hasn't changed.

What is changing is our standing as a leader in small boat manufacturing. We have been moving up that list steadily.


Hobie Cat Forums
Matt Miller
Hobie Cat Company
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: Keith] #110515
06/28/07 04:23 PM
06/28/07 04:23 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 749
Santa Cruz, CA
SurfCityRacing Offline
old hand
SurfCityRacing  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 749
Santa Cruz, CA
Dang, so much meanness,
Matt is taking a beating here and he's just an employee of Hobie. Give him a break! How many other manufacturer's representatives are putting themselves out here to get hammered? Not many! That in itself should be a testament to Hobie's commitment to its customers. Matt provides accurate information, technical and otherwise all the time. And, he responds to questions on the forums usually pretty fast. There are no other manufacturers doing that what so ever. So get over the bashing, it's not his decision to discontinue the 20. Let's be a little more civil to each other. It's easy to fire off on someone on the phone or on the forums. Speak to people like you were speaking to them in person.

The Catsailor forums get a harsh sometimes and it stops the flow of useful information. We see posts all the time talking about how we can grow interest in the sport. When newbies get here, I'm afraid they might get turned off by the hardened words.

Now, basically we are having an emotional response to this decision, and not thinking it through. In my tenure as a dealer for Hobie, since 1998, I have sold 4 Hobie 20's. And here in Div 3 we have one of the largest 20 racing fleets in the world. We have the current NA champions sailing at our regattas, as well as some other top placing sailors. Typically we have 12-15 boats on the line and it's growing everyday. People have been importing new(er) boats from Washington, Texas, Iowa, SoCal and all over.

Is there anyone out there that was planning on ordering a new 20 for the NA's in Alameda? That's where I was planning on selling a few new 20's, but nothing materialized in the form of a deposit. You would figure that the largest class regatta of the year would yield one sale of a new boat, right? That tells me that interest in new 20's is not there and it was probably a good decision from a manufacturers standpoint. The newest 20 bought in our division is a 2000...it's now 7 years later. The newest 20 being sailed in our division is a 2003 imported from TX.
There you go.

Despite my harsh tone, I'm kind of bummed too. Just give Matt a break, he doesn't deserve it! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: bsquared] #110516
06/28/07 04:26 PM
06/28/07 04:26 PM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 263
SC
zander Offline
enthusiast
zander  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 263
SC
Matt, I totally understand the reason to stop production, simple supply and demand. The rotos are what sell in quantity and are obviously cheaper to produce therefore a higher margin. I think the mistake was made when HCA demanded that only Hobie boats could compete in HCA events. I can only assume that was a last ditch effort to sell alot of boats for a product line that was already on the brink. Could better product development have saved it? We'll never know. Personally I think it was the wrong move, and it alienated many sailors, and potential customers. I think the market is small for the higher performance boats, at least here in the U.S. Catamaran racing seems to be much bigger in Europe. Sorry to see the line shrink further, I think it's only a sign of things to come.


P.S. there are alot of sailors who wanted a spin rigged 20 footer. I'm 215 lbs. and if I want crew I need a 20 footer. As I recall it was the comptip that killed the fox. Made it too hard to trim. The what if the tiger had one??? Where would it be?


Always borrow money from a pessimist. He won't expect it back.
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: mmiller] #110517
06/28/07 04:31 PM
06/28/07 04:31 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,252
California
mmiller Offline
veteran
mmiller  Offline
veteran

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,252
California
Man... shoot the messenger. I'm just two stars now! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Hobie Cat Forums
Matt Miller
Hobie Cat Company
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: mmiller] #110518
06/28/07 04:34 PM
06/28/07 04:34 PM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 11
Z
Ziv_Levanon Offline
stranger
Ziv_Levanon  Offline
stranger
Z

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 11
dont worry matt..we are right behind you..hiding..


Hobie Cat Dealer Havazellet Hasharon ISRAEL
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: zander] #110519
06/28/07 04:43 PM
06/28/07 04:43 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,252
California
mmiller Offline
veteran
mmiller  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,252
California
Quote
I think the mistake was made when HCA demanded that only Hobie boats could compete in HCA events.


The mistake was made before that. It was allowing open class in... to begin with. Restricting open class is a whole different can of worms, but Hobie Alter's concept of one design was a good one and is practiced by most one design classes.

Quote
As I recall it was the comptip that killed the fox.


We actually sold the fox with aluminum masts after a VERY short attempt at using CompTips, so that wasn't it. I think the deal that killed it was here already. The I20 is sold in the USA with an over sized sail plan. The Fox was a Euro F20... we could have had an F20 fleet here in the US but for Performance making the I20 non-conforming.


Hobie Cat Forums
Matt Miller
Hobie Cat Company
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: mmiller] #110520
06/28/07 04:56 PM
06/28/07 04:56 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe

Quote

... but Hobie Alter's concept of one design was a good one and is practiced by most one design classes. ...



Otherwise they wouldn't be called one design classes in the first place, right ? Nice circular reasoning !

But Matt is right, on business reasons the discontinuation of the H-20 makes sense.

So that makes Trifoiler, Hobie 30 mono, Hobie Fox, H13, H14, H15, TheMightyHobie18, H17, H20.


<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> On to the next round. Please, make your bets ! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

The remaining choices are :

Hobie 16, Hobie FX-one and Hobie Tiger.


Which boat type is the next to be discontinued in this glass fibre death match for the "bottom line" - award.

As with the Highlander, there can be only one !


Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 06/28/07 04:57 PM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: ] #110521
06/28/07 05:03 PM
06/28/07 05:03 PM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,147
Bay of Islands, NZ
W
warbird Offline
old hand
warbird  Offline
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W

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,147
Bay of Islands, NZ
Paper Tiger was business built by "Tiger Boats" for many years and I have owned three. So there is the argument that they stopped production.
Tiger Boats built some but only a few Tiger Sharks, I think less than 30...But they were also home built by a few people. The Paper Tiger was designed as a home build but became so successful that TB started up.

I also want to say that this is not a personal attack or a particularly anti Hobie one. For me it is a general disapointment in business direction. A whole lot of people in the world have had enormous pleasure from what Hobie started.
But it is interesting that the most successful boat is the one he designed for no other reason than that it would be a great sailboat.

Last edited by warbird; 06/28/07 05:17 PM.
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: Wouter] #110522
06/28/07 05:16 PM
06/28/07 05:16 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,252
California
mmiller Offline
veteran
mmiller  Offline
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Posts: 1,252
California
Quote
So that makes Trifoiler, Hobie 30 mono, Hobie Fox, H13, H14, H15, TheMightyHobie18, H17, H20.


If we have to include the 13, 15 and Fox (Euro boats) in the list...

We have to expand the list of available fiberglass product to include all of the Hobie France products that are still available:

Hobie currently sells...

Fiberglass:

Hobie Dragoon
Hobie 14
Hobie 15
Hobie 15 Club
Hobie 16
Hobie Max
Hobie Fx-One
HObie Pacific
Hobie Tiger
Hobie Fox

Not just three...


Hobie Cat Forums
Matt Miller
Hobie Cat Company
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: warbird] #110523
06/28/07 05:17 PM
06/28/07 05:17 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528
Looking for a Job, I got credi...
scooby_simon Offline
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
scooby_simon  Offline
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528
Looking for a Job, I got credi...
Quote
Quote
it is in their interest to GIVE you the old dies (moulds) for free


Before you get too excited about getting the molds... This concept has been raised before, after other models have been discontinued. It doesn't work, but I would think we would always listen to a serious offer.

We will still be using them to build replacement hulls when needed and we are going to continue to supply replacement parts for many, many years to come.



Why not do as Reg / Rob White do with Hurricane 5.9 hulls; they build the hulls and Andy Webb in Harwich fits out the boats and sells them on.

Afterall, The Hobie 20 is very very similar to the Hurricane 5.9 !


F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD

I also talk sport here
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: Wouter] #110524
06/28/07 05:34 PM
06/28/07 05:34 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 5,582
“an island in the Pacifi...
hobie1616 Offline
Carpal Tunnel
hobie1616  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

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Posts: 5,582
“an island in the Pacifi...
Quote
Which boat type is the next to be discontinued in this glass fibre death match for the "bottom line" - award.

The Hobie 16 will outlive ****.


US Sail Level 2 Instructor
US Sail Level 3 Coach
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: hobie1616] #110525
06/28/07 06:17 PM
06/28/07 06:17 PM

A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A



Matt:

How about developing a F-16 boat. Seems to be where things are going. I would love to by a new Hobie as a replacement for my current Hobie 17. But I have to look at the Blade as I need one I can sail one up most of the time and with grand daughter when she can. By the way I have owned a 14 Turbo, 16 and now 17, along with Mystere 4.3.

Doug

Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: ] #110526
06/28/07 07:40 PM
06/28/07 07:40 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Matt,

Why exactly was allowing open class in to a Hobie club’s regatta “the problem”?

I argue that the problem was that the HCA allowed their yacht clubs (fleets) to conduct races for a Hobie class with less then 5 boats.

If HCA was serious about the notion of One Design then they would operate like many of the one design sailing Yacht Clubs... When a specific Hobie class did not meet the numbers... Out would go their start, class and trophies …instantly… no racing for that regatta (Back in the day...the Hobie SI's declared... 5 boats = a class or no race! I assume they sent people home… it was before my time.)

One design classes hang on to their niche in a yacht club by RUTHLESSLY throwing out classes that do not meet the participation requirements of the Yacht club.. They argue... “Hey... access to racing is king... If you want to race... then pick one of the fleets that is viable on our pond. don't like this policy ... fine!... go find a club that matches your interest. What!… none exist on the pond!… oh well better get used to the idea of racing a XXX”. When space comes available… a new class is allowed into the club (that is the hard part though… finding that new class).

The Hobie Class Association did not have their clubs (hobie fleets) do this ... They did not put the screws to their sailors in dying classes to maintain the class or switch over. The emphasis became… just sail a boat with an H on it. ... A one design yacht club would have said... Hey... 4 Hobie 18's...average turnout for two years!... SORRY!.... No class or racing at all for you guys... It's either a 16 or a 20 for you if you want to race at all much less in one design catamarans!

So, the mistake the HCA made was not in allowing open class... rather it was in not killing off the fleets that failed the 5 boat minimum at a regatta and pushing those Hobie sailors into the open class. Instead, … HCA lowered the bar... It is now ONE Stinkin boat = a class.... (maybe you can call it a class ... but I hardly call it a race with just one boat)


So, when the HCA saw the general decline in cat racing and said… OK… we will play a zero sum game… “Hey You guys.. .. come over and race in our Hobie game… we will convert you to our brand… Life will be good again.” The HCA did not win this game. The HCA misunderstood open class racers and how they would behave. The Hobie clubs said… “OK... we allow for an open class... Those sailors will see all of this Hobie One design activity... and switch out of open class and into one of the Hobie OD classes. This was a complete misread of what these open class sailors were interested in by sailing their particular boat. These sailors may have liked one design if it happened but the fact of the matter was … they were perfectly happy to participate in an HCA open class regatta... OR one of their own open class regattas OR not at all. They liked the boat they had, the level of commitment it required, etc etc… they clearly ranked performance or some other factor over one design racing. Moreover, they saw these tiny Hobie classes of less then 5 boats and saw where one guy always won and one guy was always DFL and said… Eh… no thanks… I am not switching classes that one design race isn’t much better then what I have now.

Bottom line, I don’t see any logic behind the notion that hosting an Open Class hurt Hobie one design sailing. It also most certainly true that open class did not HELP Hobie one design sailing though.

Now… having said this… It’s not clear that you can stand against the tide of history and what sailors want to sail. These monohull fleets are not flourishing with the survival of the fit strategy either. So… killing off weak classes isn’t the whole story. I think that open class as a fall back if one design falters WOULD have worked well if you had put the low attendance Hobies into the open. (Toss in the those 4 Hobie 18’s along with left over P16’s P18’s etc etc you might have maintained interest in racing catamarans.) ….

So… Since the HCA tossed the open class in the mid Atlantic. What has happened. Division 11 Hobie turnout has not grown. They have attracted one open class sailor Back into his old boat, a TheMightyHobie18 to sail with his niece at the mini mega this year. The H20 class died. A 20 boat A class fleet and a 15 boat A class fleet emerged out of thin air and the open class still putters along. Finally, A Cats are well on their way to taking over a one design yacht club.

So, while its clear that an open class does not help Hobie OD racing… I can’t see how its has hurt the Hobie OD scene either.


So… what am I missing… How did open class HURT… (I know it hasn’t helped the HCA scene).


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: warbird] #110527
06/28/07 09:13 PM
06/28/07 09:13 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 337
Victoria, Australia
C2 Mike Offline
enthusiast
C2 Mike  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 337
Victoria, Australia
Quote

The thing about the smaller companies is that they are focused on product and not profit.


That is the biggest load of BS I have read in a while. *Every* company actually has an obligation to it's stakeholders (owners, creditors, employees, customers etc) to be profitable. As nice a guy as Daryl and all the other smaller companies are, I'm positive that they haven't invested all that time and money without expecting a return.

Tiger Mike

Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: mmiller] #110528
06/28/07 09:21 PM
06/28/07 09:21 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 32
Serge L. Offline
newbie
Serge L.  Offline
newbie

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 32
just to keep the record straight, Tremolino tri is not dead, there is a new builder, modified models, 2 new hulls are built right now, it uses Aquarius-supplied parts for the rig and it's still an awesome boat.

Serge

Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: warbird] #110529
06/28/07 09:22 PM
06/28/07 09:22 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 337
Victoria, Australia
C2 Mike Offline
enthusiast
C2 Mike  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 337
Victoria, Australia
Quote
That is what the people are saying here...Hobie are making simple business decisions...and not taking responsiiblity for who they are, what legacy they have and what actually makes the World go around. It is time for business to understand that Ideal and quality trumps dollars and mediochrety every time. We look to people like Hobie for leadership and what do we get????Simple business decisions..it is the money mantra.
A chicken in every pot and a rotomold in every driveway.
If ever there was a reason not to encourage people into cat sailing it is this.
When I got my first cat it was a fibreglass PT, beater. That was 25 years ago and that boat is still a good little boat that sails fast and can be updated into a flyier. My boats since, while second hand have all had integrity until I have an excellent Hydra 16, Nacra 14 Squared and Taipan..... all still excellent sail boats and one is 25 years old......
vibrant shmibrant, Hobie reaks of midmanagement and design graduates. Rather than gettting rid of boat makers, get rid of a few people in the office.


Hmmm... How many Hobie 20's have you bought in the last 5 years to support the class? Get real - do you think that (insert any boat builder here) should spend money on a boat that has been not profitable for years and not likely to ever be, just in case you might want one in the future?

It would appear that you have *never* bought a new boat which makes it a bit rich for you to get up on your soap box. Bottom line - sailboat making is not charity. If you want a class to survive - buy the boats and without question they will keep making them. Unless you are prepared to dip into your own pocket then don't bitch when they move onto profitable lines.

Tiger Mike

Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: Jake] #110530
06/28/07 09:33 PM
06/28/07 09:33 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 337
Victoria, Australia
C2 Mike Offline
enthusiast
C2 Mike  Offline
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Victoria, Australia
Quote
Quote
This material must also be processed before it shelf hardens.


Matt, what is "shelf hardening"?

I agree that you can't justify maintaining production status of something you are selling just a dozen or so a year on. While the romanticists of the sport would want to believe that the manufacturers have some moral obligation to support the things we love, it's sometimes just not good business sense to do so.


Also known as age hardening. Check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_hardening. It is particularly prevalent in areas where there are large changes in temperature. Age (or shelf) hardening of aluminum changes it's bending characteristics and makes the section more brittle.

In a previous life I ran a company that curved and bent metals for all sorts of applications. One was aluminum bull bars for cars and trucks. A pack of ally tube that was open at one end and left outside for a month over summer was useless for bending even though it looked fine. The covered end would be fine but the end that was exposed to the weather would snap like a dry twig. Given time, the entire length would be the same even when it was covered.

Tiger Mike

p.s. yep - bored at work today!

Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: C2 Mike] #110531
06/28/07 09:41 PM
06/28/07 09:41 PM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,921
Michigan
PTP Offline
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PTP  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,921
Michigan
Quote
Quote
Quote
This material must also be processed before it shelf hardens.


Matt, what is "shelf hardening"?

I agree that you can't justify maintaining production status of something you are selling just a dozen or so a year on. While the romanticists of the sport would want to believe that the manufacturers have some moral obligation to support the things we love, it's sometimes just not good business sense to do so.


Also known as age hardening. Check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_hardening. It is particularly prevalent in areas where there are large changes in temperature. Age (or shelf) hardening of aluminum changes it's bending characteristics and makes the section more brittle.

In a previous life I ran a company that curved and bent metals for all sorts of applications. One was aluminum bull bars for cars and trucks. A pack of ally tube that was open at one end and left outside for a month over summer was useless for bending even though it looked fine. The covered end would be fine but the end that was exposed to the weather would snap like a dry twig. Given time, the entire length would be the same even when it was covered.

Tiger Mike

p.s. yep - bored at work today!


What prevents this from happening with a finished mast that is left in the florida sun all day everyday? Does anodizing prevent/limit this?

Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: Wouter] #110532
06/28/07 10:02 PM
06/28/07 10:02 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 337
Victoria, Australia
C2 Mike Offline
enthusiast
C2 Mike  Offline
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Quote

Plain heat treatment hardening (English name ?) use the ability of a certain metals to change their own metal structure to different forms. These changes are nearly always the results of temperature. As such there is no need for any alloy elements and as such it is a different hardening method to precipitation hardening. A good example of this plain hear hardening is normal iron/steel. Heat it and then cool it very rapidly and it will became very hard (and brittle). This can then be soften again by mildly heating it for a given period of time at a lower temperature. Allowing portions of the dissimilarity to morph back to less hard grid structures.
Wouter


Do you mean "case" hardening? Which typically happens with tool steels and/or annealing where a metal is "softened" for machining or bending and then hardened again afterwards. There are a heap of different techniques for different desired results. Don't underestimate the effects of age hardening on Aluminum though. In some climates it can be very surprising!

Tiger Mike

Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: PTP] #110533
06/28/07 10:12 PM
06/28/07 10:12 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
Carpal Tunnel
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Northfield Mn
life without toys is a void - nietzsche


I'm boatless.
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: PTP] #110534
06/28/07 10:23 PM
06/28/07 10:23 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 337
Victoria, Australia
C2 Mike Offline
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C2 Mike  Offline
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Victoria, Australia
Quote

What prevents this from happening with a finished mast that is left in the florida sun all day everyday? Does anodizing prevent/limit this?


Nothing. I am referring to those components that are bent/curved such as beams and tiller tubes etc. Once the bend is done, the age hardening would have little/no impact. In the context of a mast, over time I guess it will become slightly stiffer but doubt that it would have much impact on how the boat sails.

Tiger Mike

Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: C2 Mike] #110535
06/28/07 11:51 PM
06/28/07 11:51 PM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,147
Bay of Islands, NZ
W
warbird Offline
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Bay of Islands, NZ
The BS you call it is about wanting to deliver the best and profits follow, like Walt said, build it and they will come.
Profits for shareholders is exactly the excuse the Million dollar CEOs use as a mantra to rip people off in every corperation...it is getting tired sport and it is unsustainable..check out the planet..it does not like it....and I do not mean global warming, I mean creating too much rubbish.
Time to suck it in and make excellent, long life product, not crap.
There is nothing wrong with providing a SERVICE and getting a profit for that rather than reluctantly putting out substandard service for a target profit...and the highest possible profit all of the time...this mentality creates the devious mendacious marketing we see every day.
"never mind the quality, feel the width!"

Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: C2 Mike] #110536
06/29/07 12:01 AM
06/29/07 12:01 AM
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Posts: 1,147
Bay of Islands, NZ
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warbird Offline
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Bay of Islands, NZ
I don't have the money to buy new boats. But I have good boats because good boats were built and on sold. That gives new boat buyers a market to sell into so they can afford to upgrade. Or do you give your second hand boats away? So the three boats I have are still inservice, highly maintained and have many years left in them. The purchasing and maintaining of them directly contributes to the compaines thanks. The eco-footprint the companies have in these three boats is minimised by the long life potential people like me put into them.
Do you imagine I would EVER buy a second hand Getaway? It is the Skoda of 16 foot boats for gods sake; it's freezing, winter and raining and I'll bitch about whatever I like.

Last edited by warbird; 06/29/07 12:04 AM.
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: warbird] #110537
06/29/07 03:37 AM
06/29/07 03:37 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 337
Victoria, Australia
C2 Mike Offline
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C2 Mike  Offline
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Victoria, Australia
Quote
The BS you call it is about wanting to deliver the best and profits follow, like Walt said, build it and they will come.
Profits for shareholders is exactly the excuse the Million dollar CEOs use as a mantra to rip people off in every corperation...it is getting tired sport and it is unsustainable..check out the planet..it does not like it....and I do not mean global warming, I mean creating too much rubbish.


You are living in la-la land. I use that mantra when it comes to the business I run. To say that I rip people off is highly offensive and very wrong. For any CEO to deliberately run a company at a loss (where an future surplus is not likely) is not ethical and illegal in many countries. Guess what the first department that gets cut when a company starts to run out of money (a curious side effect of un-profitable companies)? People get sacked and it usually starts in the R&D area where they develop the new products for tomorrow.

When you manage a company or have any decision making power, please let me know so that I can be sure I have no money invested there.

Tiger Mike

Last edited by TigerMike; 06/29/07 03:48 AM.
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: warbird] #110538
06/29/07 03:46 AM
06/29/07 03:46 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 337
Victoria, Australia
C2 Mike Offline
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C2 Mike  Offline
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Quote
I don't have the money to buy new boats. But I have good boats because good boats were built and on sold. That gives new boat buyers a market to sell into so they can afford to upgrade. Or do you give your second hand boats away? So the three boats I have are still inservice, highly maintained and have many years left in them. The purchasing and maintaining of them directly contributes to the compaines thanks. The eco-footprint the companies have in these three boats is minimised by the long life potential people like me put into them.
Do you imagine I would EVER buy a second hand Getaway? It is the Skoda of 16 foot boats for gods sake; it's freezing, winter and raining and I'll bitch about whatever I like.


Hehe I can see why you probably don't have the money for new boats. It's very easy to give advice to others in what to do with their $$$ but it's not so easy whey you are in the hot seat. In your list I didn't see any Hobie products in the boats you previously owned and think your chip about hobie-cat would prevent that from happening no matter what they built.

As for the Getaway, what's wrong with it? It has a target market and seems to fit the bill nicely. Can't see me buying one either new or old either but I'm not the target.

Tiger Mike

Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: C2 Mike] #110539
06/29/07 04:17 AM
06/29/07 04:17 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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North-West Europe
Tigermike is right here :

Quote

In your list I didn't see any Hobie products in the boats you previously owned and think your chip about hobie-cat would prevent that from happening no matter what they built.



The bloody guy sails and owns both the Hydra 16 and the Taipan 4.9; there is no way he is ever going to be satisfied with any Hobie beach cat product.

Some Hobie guys need to get out more; there is a whole other beach cat world out there.

Although I do agree that Warbird is coming on a bit strong.

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 06/29/07 04:17 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: C2 Mike] #110540
06/29/07 06:11 AM
06/29/07 06:11 AM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,147
Bay of Islands, NZ
W
warbird Offline
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warbird  Offline
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Posts: 1,147
Bay of Islands, NZ
You have made this a personal attack Mike, to that degree you can eat a bug.
I never sugested a company should be run at a loss, just that profit is not reason to produce crap product.
I sail a Hydra to sail with a mate who has one and because it is a finely tuned and quality sail..rather than the H16 which is not.
I sail a Nacra 14 beacuse it is fun and tough and a good beater in big wind and WAY better than the H14.
And I sail a Taipan because it is WAY better and faster one man boat than any equal length and weight Hobie product ever will be.
It is not that I can't buy a Hobie, it is that I don't want one and the way they are going, I never will.
You say the Getaway is a good boat..but you wouldn't have one.....imagine that.
Re making money, I paint and sail and live here..where do you live Mike? How often are you on the motorway..the nearest is 300k away from my life..money is well second in my life style choices.

And you are wrong mike, as the Tiger comes into a price range I think it's worth I will have one...or a Nacra 17..whichever comes first.

Attached Files
111930-CobblersPoint.jpg (60 downloads)
Last edited by warbird; 06/29/07 06:22 AM.
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: C2 Mike] #110541
06/29/07 06:17 AM
06/29/07 06:17 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
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South Carolina
Quote
Quote
Quote
This material must also be processed before it shelf hardens.


Matt, what is "shelf hardening"?

I agree that you can't justify maintaining production status of something you are selling just a dozen or so a year on. While the romanticists of the sport would want to believe that the manufacturers have some moral obligation to support the things we love, it's sometimes just not good business sense to do so.


Also known as age hardening. Check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_hardening. It is particularly prevalent in areas where there are large changes in temperature. Age (or shelf) hardening of aluminum changes it's bending characteristics and makes the section more brittle.

In a previous life I ran a company that curved and bent metals for all sorts of applications. One was aluminum bull bars for cars and trucks. A pack of ally tube that was open at one end and left outside for a month over summer was useless for bending even though it looked fine. The covered end would be fine but the end that was exposed to the weather would snap like a dry twig. Given time, the entire length would be the same even when it was covered.

Tiger Mike

p.s. yep - bored at work today!


Wikipedia:
Quote
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(Redirected from Age hardening)
Jump to: navigation, search

Precipitation hardening, also called age hardening or dispersion hardening, is a heat treatment technique used to strengthen malleable materials, especially non-ferrous alloys including most structural alloys of aluminium and titanium. It relies on changes in solid solubility with temperature to produce fine particles of an impurity phase, which impede the movement of dislocations, or defects in a crystal's lattice. Since dislocations are often the dominant carriers of plasticity (deformations of a material under stress), this serves to harden the material. The impurities, in fact, play the same role as matrix substances in composite materials. Just as the formation of ice in air can produce clouds, snow, or hail, depending upon the thermal history of a given portion of the atmosphere, precipitation in solids can produce many different sizes of particles, which have radically different properties. Unlike ordinary tempering, alloys must be kept at elevated temperature for hours to allow precipitation to take place. This time delay is called aging.


Sounds like you guys need to store your raw aluminum extrusions indoors.


Jake Kohl
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued/Open class [Re: mmiller] #110542
06/29/07 07:08 AM
06/29/07 07:08 AM
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 195
Straight Outta Hell
B
Boudicca Offline
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Straight Outta Hell
Mr Schneider,

Mr Miller is correct in his assertion that Hobie should never have allowed the open class in the first place. The reason is obvious, if Mr Miller doesn't like to admit it: allowing the open class in allowed sailors to directly, empirically that is, compare different makes of boats. And it became obvious that certain boats were just...BETTER.

Once Pandora's Box was opened, it was a worse mistake to try to close it, though. What should have been done was to immediately produce comparable product. It was a long while before the H-20 came out, and it took Europe to produce the H-Tiger. What's done is done, though, and Hobie is not in the business of the Hobie Way of Life, they're in business to make money. The Hobie Way of Life ain't gonna feed Mr Miller and his family. Or keep the Alter clan in the manner to which they've become accustomed up there in the Great Northwest.

(BTW, Mr Miller, it would not have been that much trouble to oversize a sailplan to match the I-20, would it? It's common knowledge that all the wind in the US is taken up by Congress and the great suck of Texas, therefore the US tends to have lighter airs to sail in.)

As best I can tell, any interesting boats Hobie is producing is pretty much Hobie Europe. I've seen the ads in the French/Aussie/Euro multihull mags. Hobie's got boats over there I'd never even heard of, and I bet most of the US hasn't either. There's a pity.


This sig would be something witty, but the censors are against that.
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: Jake] #110543
06/29/07 07:13 AM
06/29/07 07:13 AM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,147
Bay of Islands, NZ
W
warbird Offline
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Bay of Islands, NZ
To Tiger Mike and all other Hobie sailors. I want to make an unreserved appology. We all sail cats for fun and excitement and much needed release of pressure and all sorts of other good reasons.
Good luck to you Mike and and your racing and to the dad who is trying to relax and treat his kids on the Hobie Getaway. There is nothing pretty about a boat snob and that is what I was being.
I beleive some of what I said about a need for better business practice but when I read back over this thread I am out of line.

Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: mmiller] #110544
06/29/07 07:43 AM
06/29/07 07:43 AM
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 195
Straight Outta Hell
B
Boudicca Offline
member
Boudicca  Offline
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Straight Outta Hell
Your Performance Cat list is incorrect.

Performance still produces the 5.0 (N500)
the 5.7 (N570)
and the 5.8 (N580)

Always one step ahead...


This sig would be something witty, but the censors are against that.
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: warbird] #110545
06/29/07 07:44 AM
06/29/07 07:44 AM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 117
Northern VA
bsquared Offline
member
bsquared  Offline
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Posts: 117
Northern VA
Well, I agree with Mark that the Open class didn't help Hobie; it probably helped the local fleets with turnout and manpower, though, and banning it has definitely hurt the local fleets and divisions for the same reason. Somehow the idea of "let's get all the cats togther for a bigger event and have more fun" turned into an issue of "participation is declining; let's not have anything to do with other boats and that will save us." Well, my dates may be off, but seems like the 17, 18, and 20 have all been killed since we went Hobie-only. Too little, too late, and addressing the effects and not the cause. Probably shouldn't have even brought this up, because it's all been said many times before, but is cetainly is ironic at the least. Clearly we're on the path for Hobie-only to be Hobie 16-only, and a lot of us saw that coming. I'm betting that Hobie 16-only is not going to improve participation...

Last week I did an all-Hobie open class regatta with a 14, 2 16s, 3 18s, and a 20. It was surprisingly competitive (all sizes won at least one race on handicap), although clearly not as competitive as the 15 boat A-Cat fleet at the same event. Is this the future of HCA events? When is HCA going to encourage and promote a Getaway class?

Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: bsquared] #110546
06/29/07 07:47 AM
06/29/07 07:47 AM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 117
Northern VA
bsquared Offline
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bsquared  Offline
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Northern VA
Still looking for an answer to an ealier question; is there an active European or Australian turnout in a two-man 18-20 foot non-spin boat?

Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: Boudicca] #110547
06/29/07 08:23 AM
06/29/07 08:23 AM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,187
38.912, -95.37
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Well gee wizz, better add the Hobie 12/3.5 and H21 to the list of discontinued.

The thing is, and why we us (or at least me) inland/Midwest racers wanted to stick our heads in the sand and not see this coming is that Hobie sanctioned racing is the best available. Lakes aren't typically big enough for distance racing, it's all cans. This physical constraint also makes setting long enough weather legs impossible, and higher than national average wind speeds prevail on the plains from the Gulf to the Canadian border. I said earlier it seems there's a kite allergy, better stated, the time and effort in setup (when traveling to events) and short/er legs doesn't seem worth the "hassle", added to the fact we're talking about (as Stephen aptly put it) weekend warriors.

Other than Hobie sanctioned the choices are scarce. You say step out and try another boat. That may mean leaving it at a yacht club and racing the same few boats every Saturday, like was said, a couple guys trade off winning, and one finishes DFL every time...sound enticing? With the Hobie events that go on here at least there's enough boats that you can have a race within a race, in the typical 10 to 12 boat H20 start. That's what keeps OD racing fun for most.

We're spoiled with the speed of the 20, going back to the, comparitively speaking, weight sensitive 16 is not a pretty option. Us baby boomers' kids are racing now, have crewed on and are even buying 20's, that's why it hurts. Again, like Stephen said, we've raised these kids to think Hobie is the best boat. A boat with an overlapping jib is 'our niche'.

We can ride this out for five years or more. Suppose that's long enough to figure out viable alternatives. My fear is the racing will fragment and die in the interim.


John H16, H14
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: _flatlander_] #110548
06/29/07 08:34 AM
06/29/07 08:34 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,459
Annapolis,MD
Keith Offline
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Quote
Well gee wizz, better add the Hobie 12/3.5 and H21 to the list of discontinued.



Both iterations of the Hobie-21, the SE and Sport Cruiser. Delve into the land of monos (the 33 is now being built by somebody else, anyone remember the Magic 25?) and there's a couple more. Power boats too... I'd actually love to pick up a new Hobie Power Skiff.

Sorry...

Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: mmiller] #110549
06/29/07 08:59 AM
06/29/07 08:59 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,459
Annapolis,MD
Keith Offline
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Keith  Offline
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Quote

We actually sold the fox with aluminum masts after a VERY short attempt at using CompTips, so that wasn't it. I think the deal that killed it was here already. The I20 is sold in the USA with an over sized sail plan. The Fox was a Euro F20... we could have had an F20 fleet here in the US but for Performance making the I20 non-conforming.


See? Here we go again. The Fox's failure was Performance's fault for not conforming. A little bit of thought into the Fox rig and a US version of F-20 could have materialized with two manufacturers. The H-20 could have retired just like the 6.0 and Hobie would have a more modern boat as its replacement, and we wouldn't be having this conversation. The Tybee could be featuring both. Instead, it's Performance's fault for adjusting the product to the market place. Bad, bad, Performance.

But - I want to say that I have the utmost respect for the Matt and the other Hobie dealers and techs that show up here. I hope they realize that what sounds like everybody on a hate fest aimed at them is really everybody frustrated and sad. We do love Hobie for what it has done for the sport. Those of us that have sailed and raced Hobies still have a soft spot in our hearts for the boats and the company. But the company and the community seem to be taking different paths.

Yes, everybody here realizes that Hobie is doing really well as a company. We all realize that Hobie is answering a market call with the roto-molded boats they are selling, and that has been a great business decision for them. We understand that, we really do. And we're happy that the company is thriving.

But it should be obvious now that the people in this community aren't as interested in those products for the most part. So when we hear statements that Hobie is a leader in the sport some just shake their heads. That's part of the frustration here as well. We're not currently interested in Kayaks. And they don't see Hobie as even desiring to focus on what this community is looking for anymore, which adds to the frustration. It may be just a matter of perception, but in so many matters, perception is reality.

Anyway, I hope continued success for Hobie, Matt, and the dealers. I also look forward to the day when they decide to bring out an A-Cat, an F-16, a new 20', or an update to the Tiger. Out of that list, only the 20 is outside the company's concentration on the 12-18 foot market.

Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: _flatlander_] #110550
06/29/07 09:02 AM
06/29/07 09:02 AM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 503
BrianK Offline
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Quote
Well gee wizz, better add the Hobie 12/3.5 and H21 to the list of discontinued.

The thing is, and why we us (or at least me) inland/Midwest racers wanted to stick our heads in the sand and not see this coming is that Hobie sanctioned racing is the best available. Lakes aren't typically big enough for distance racing, it's all cans. This physical constraint also makes setting long enough weather legs impossible, and higher than national average wind speeds prevail on the plains from the Gulf to the Canadian border. I said earlier it seems there's a kite allergy, better stated, the time and effort in setup (when traveling to events) and short/er legs doesn't seem worth the "hassle", added to the fact we're talking about (as Stephen aptly put it) weekend warriors.

Other than Hobie sanctioned the choices are scarce. You say step out and try another boat. That may mean leaving it at a yacht club and racing the same few boats every Saturday, like was said, a couple guys trade off winning, and one finishes DFL every time...sound enticing? With the Hobie events that go on here at least there's enough boats that you can have a race within a race, in the typical 10 to 12 boat H20 start. That's what keeps OD racing fun for most.

We're spoiled with the speed of the 20, going back to the, comparitively speaking, weight sensitive 16 is not a pretty option. Us baby boomers' kids are racing now, have crewed on and are even buying 20's, that's why it hurts. Again, like Stephen said, we've raised these kids to think Hobie is the best boat. A boat with an overlapping jib is 'our niche'.

We can ride this out for five years or more. Suppose that's long enough to figure out viable alternatives. My fear is the racing will fragment and die in the interim.


Man, I love the spin boats, but Im with ya in that it is too much of a PITA to set up a spin boat for a one day local fleet race (guess Im lazy). Thats why I love the Wave, easy setup and sailing.

After looking at the success of the Nintendo Wii, Im thinking Hobie may be on to something with pushing the Wave and Getaway. We need new sailors and a boat they will sail, and the bulk of them are not going to come from spin class boats, thats for sure.

Heres my idea: every fleet in the US should also start a mirror Wave fleet. Build your Wave fleets with old and new sailors, and when your ready, COME TO THE WWF SUPER INTERCONTINENTAL WAVE CHAMPIONSHIPS, coming to Melbourne, Florida:

World Wave Federation Intercontinental Wave Championships
NOVEMBER 10th-11th, 2007
Hosted by Performance Sail and Sport
with video coverage by Adventure Online TV
at Pineda Park, Melbourne, Florida

Lots of room for boats and a brand new community building.

Lots of Wave sailing planned in between partying. Have a Wave, come! Dont have a Wave, come anyway, its going to be a big party!

WWF Past Videos:
http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid823619038?bclid=24526455&bctid=147010045

http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid823619038?bclid=24526455&bctid=6165826

http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid823619038?bclid=24526455&bctid=6141283

The regatta champion will be the first name added to the new WWF Championship trophy, being custom designed by world famous artist Neitze-boy.

The host WWF Club, The Space Coast Wave Crashers, has accepted a challenge by the South Florida Wave Crashers Union, led by Rick White. All other area Wave Crashers Associations are also welcome!

More details to come!

Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: bsquared] #110551
06/29/07 09:14 AM
06/29/07 09:14 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528
Looking for a Job, I got credi...
scooby_simon Offline
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
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Looking for a Job, I got credi...
Quote
Still looking for an answer to an ealier question; is there an active European or Australian turnout in a two-man 18-20 foot non-spin boat?


Yes,In the UK I can think of 2.

1, Hurricane 5.9, however they are also sailed with a Spi and currently run their open meetings with both boats.
2, Dart 18.

The Dart 18 is also sailed in mainland EU, Ithink there are a couple of Hurricane 5.9's around the rest of the EU too.


F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD

I also talk sport here
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: mmiller] #110552
06/29/07 09:40 AM
06/29/07 09:40 AM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 263
SC
zander Offline
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SC
Matt please don't get me wrong I really do understand the decision. If I think about it from a strictly business perspective it makes complete sense. I just think it's a shame, Maybe shame on the US market, you have to sell boats or fold it up.

My only experience with the fox was at spring fever years ago. At that time the comptip seemed to be the complaint. I haven't seen one race since. I own a n-20, just makes sense for my weight and I do understand the sailplan difference. I think that might catch up with us as well if things move moreto the formula. I wouldn't mind a wave but not as my primary race boat.

I don't want to "shoot the messinger",sorry if it seemed that way. Unfortunately you have become the one with all the answers for some depressing news. Sorry.


Always borrow money from a pessimist. He won't expect it back.
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: bsquared] #110553
06/29/07 10:52 AM
06/29/07 10:52 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Wouter  Offline
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North-West Europe
Quote

Still looking for an answer to an ealier question; is there an active European or Australian turnout in a two-man 18-20 foot non-spin boat?



I can think only of the Dart 18 catamaran, but I'm sure that that is not what you have in mind.

Other then that, no.

Everybody has gone to spinnakers, A-cat is no 2 person boat and the only non spi 2-up boat that isn't totally dead, besides the Dart 18's, are the Hobie 16's.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: Wouter] #110554
06/29/07 12:11 PM
06/29/07 12:11 PM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 117
Northern VA
bsquared Offline
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bsquared  Offline
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Northern VA
Yeah, I don't really include the Dart 18 in the TheMightyHobie18/20 category :-) That's a pretty small 18. I almost see that as a H16 competitor. I bet you don't see too many crews at 330-350 lbs...

Given that the Hurricane/20 is a UK boat, would expect to see some still racing over there, but as noted earlier, they appear to be on a limited production basis, too. The "big" two man boat still seems to be a niche market within the already-small US market :-(

I never understood this particular problem ... [Re: _flatlander_] #110555
06/29/07 01:01 PM
06/29/07 01:01 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Wouter  Offline
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Quote

This physical constraint also makes setting long enough weather legs impossible, and higher than national average wind speeds prevail on the plains from the Gulf to the Canadian border. I said earlier it seems there's a kite allergy, better stated, the time and effort in setup (when traveling to events) and short/er legs doesn't seem worth the "hassle", added to the fact we're talking about (as Stephen aptly put it) weekend warriors.



I never understood this particular problem and I think many people see problems were none are to be found.

Take for example the setup up time of a Hobie wave. How much faster is that then say uni-rigging a F16 or F18/Tiger ? Even with the latter two ONLY having the mainsail fitted, which will be faster and more enjoyable. The Wave or the uni-rigged F16/F18 ?

How much more work it is to sloop rig (no spi) either boat compared to the H20 or TheMightyHobie18 ?

I have my lazy days as well and often I sail my own boat with just the mainsail. I have even done that several times with 2 or 3 persons on board. The boat takes it in its stride, powers along nicely although at a somewhat slower speed (but not much slower).

Why can't these midwest guys just pick a modern boat, one with a trusted future, and just agree among themselfves how it will be raced at this or that event.

Then with respect to lakes. A normal race course is about 1 mile long and roughly 1/2 mile wide. All of the spi crews can work that big sail inside that box, several of us even singlehanded. So how small are your lakes, anyway ? I figure most aren't THAT small.

High winds then, what are we talking about here ? sustained 20 knots and higher regulary ? If not then these lake sailors are not getting more then us Aussies and Dutchies. With the latter getting confused seas thrown into the mix as well. If they are all pulling spis in that (even when singlehanding) then why not not these lake sailors ?

I strongly believe some of these lakes sailors we are referring to are just looking for reasons to not have to see the obvious.

If a lake is large enough, the winds low enough and the crews willing enough to handle Hobie 18's and Hobie 20's then why should there be any reason to not sail a Nacra-20, F18/Tiger or a F16 without the spi and spi gear ?

If that is still too much (I wouldn't know why) then just sail those boats without a jib.

Several of us are doing that regulary in the F16 class and therefor so can you guys. I'm sure it can be done with the F18/Tigers as well.

And if ever you get to the coast or a big lake with a weekend regatta then you can throw everything on get busy ! Can't do that with a Wave for example.

Remember you can always easily downgrade a fully fitted boat, but not easily upgrade a resort boat.

Just whatever you do pick a boat that has a future in Europe as all other are likely to vanish over the next couple of years.

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 06/29/07 01:08 PM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: One more time [Re: Wouter] #110556
06/29/07 02:37 PM
06/29/07 02:37 PM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 393
Syracuse,N.Y
pbisesi Offline
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pbisesi  Offline
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Syracuse,N.Y
Hobie Cat Company-For profit business
Hobie Class Association- Volunteer owners group
NOT the same thing...

At no time(both when the company ran the class or when it switched to the private group) did either allow open boats.

Open boats in the Northeast USA started when some Hobie owners did not want to cut their mast and install a comptip.
This was happening in Rochester and Buffalo, the two largest regattas in Div 16 at the time.
Then as long as they were running a seperate start for non class legal boats they invited other cats to increase their numbers.
Well, it didn't work out, both events started to lose boats in time and not grow as anticipated.
In Syracuse we had some old salts who pleaded to not allow the open boats as it would fragment the class and we would see a loss of numbers instead of a gain.
There were a number of reasons why this may have been the case. One of the ones that I saw was there were to many starts at a regatta. If you were in 16C fleet you might have to wait an hour for your start and then have a 30min. race. This turned off a lot of people who stopped showing up. I truly can't think of anyone over the last 15 years that switched to a differant brand boat and continued to race in this area. So the idea that sailors are seeing better boats when the events opened up(non sactioned) doesn't have a lot of merit.
Having to many differant boats and fleet levels (Hobie company & HCA issue) along with adding two more open starts at the regatta's caused it to be no fun for the newbies.
The consolidation of boats may turn out to be a good thing.
Remember, there were open boats for 15 years. It didn't raise the numbers.
We(Fleet 204)stuck with the Hobie only format. We were the largets Cat race in the country last year and are consistantly in the top 5 year after year. It's hard to argue with results.

By the way I am for the F18's sailing at the HCA events and breaking out manufactures at the F18 Nationals to crown brand champions along with the overall.
I think the Hobie 16 and the F18's along with the A cat will have continued success and the others will come and go.


Pat Bisesi Fleet 204
Re: One more time [Re: pbisesi] #110557
06/29/07 03:27 PM
06/29/07 03:27 PM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,187
38.912, -95.37
_flatlander_ Offline
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_flatlander_  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,187
38.912, -95.37
Wouter I agree it is more of a perception than reality. I look at the time to set up the 20 as double that of the 16. There are varying degrees of busting your boat down that we don't need to hash out here (please?). Adding a spin to rig time varies from 5 to 30 minutes (depending on who you ask).

At last years Mid-Americas I witnessed (for the first time) Tigers "flying" downwind and thought "Damn...why aren't we ALL doing that?!?"

If the ladies, daughters and sons can handle the front end of a 20, they can also handle a spin...again perception. A Tiger with a self-tacking jib only and no spi would be like a step back to riding along on the 16. HF18SN (tiger no spi) 63.65, still faster than a 20. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Pat I like your idea of allowing MM F18's starting with Tigers. That leaves a lot of choice for product to put on the race course.


John H16, H14
Re: One more time [Re: _flatlander_] #110558
06/29/07 03:57 PM
06/29/07 03:57 PM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 440
Graham, NC
WindyHillF20 Offline
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WindyHillF20  Offline
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Graham, NC
Hobie continuing to support discontinued models is rubbish! They allready have low/no inventory on TheMightyHobie18 items such as jibs, traveler parts, etc. Its just a matter of time before the inventory will be totally exhausted on 14,17,18 and now 20 parts.
I don't see Hobie getting the customer following they experienced with glass cats from the roto and kayak owners. IMO its the continuation of Hobies internal struggle to determine who they are and how they fit into todays world. We as Americans are being feed a continual stream of disposable products that we consume in great numbers. Quality and longevity seem to no longer matter. If plastic is what the masses want then thats what they'll get.

Re: One more time [Re: WindyHillF20] #110559
06/29/07 04:29 PM
06/29/07 04:29 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 733
Home is where the harness is.....
Will_R Offline
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Will_R  Offline
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Posts: 733
Home is where the harness is.....
I sailed the Fox a couple of times and I thought the writing was on the wall from the moment the boat landed here. If you don't even look at the comp tip debacle, the smaller sails doomed it. Why buy a Fox when the I20 is faster? That's how people perceived it.

I sailed the Fox a couple of times, it went nicely. Sadly, however I felt at that moment that a US-F20 was even more of a pipe dream. IMHO, it was Hobie's arrogance that got it killed. "Performance isn't meeting F20, but we will... they'll just be happy to be on a Hobie 20' boat with spi". Wrong. People just wanna go fast, lol

It has been discussed... b/c I talked a/b it with some friends... putting an I20 rig on the H20... ;-)

Sadly, as most everyone else has said, money talks. Unfortunately, tradition and good will won't get very far in feeding people and paying the mortgage.

Re: One more time [Re: WindyHillF20] #110560
06/29/07 04:32 PM
06/29/07 04:32 PM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 11
Z
Ziv_Levanon Offline
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Ziv_Levanon  Offline
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if by selling Getaways Hobie is getting back to the masses than they are doing the very right thing. cat sailing is not only about racing...as a matter of fact mybe 15% are racing...the rest are out there to have fun and enjoy themselfs in a reasonable price


Hobie Cat Dealer Havazellet Hasharon ISRAEL
Re: One more time [Re: Ziv_Levanon] #110561
06/29/07 04:38 PM
06/29/07 04:38 PM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 11
Z
Ziv_Levanon Offline
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Ziv_Levanon  Offline
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in our club, which stores 120 cats (mostly Hobies and Nacras) when I organize a regatta, I have 10-15 boats, when I organize a raid, with a nice BBQ in the middle, we have 40-50 boats.
easy simple math...


Hobie Cat Dealer Havazellet Hasharon ISRAEL
Re: One more time [Re: Ziv_Levanon] #110562
06/29/07 05:30 PM
06/29/07 05:30 PM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,147
Bay of Islands, NZ
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warbird Offline
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Bay of Islands, NZ
People have been talking about what a PINTA the spinny setup is to rig etc. I have no race fleet so with my development boat I have decided on small jib and roller furling hooter a la Rick.....I suppose some people like the million line rig but I sail alone and just cannot be fagged.
Re Getaway. I suppose I look at the 17 with wings and the 18 with wings and wonder why anyone would bother with the rotomold...but I am not a dad.
The Hobie 17 always struck me a a wonderful dedicated boat. Like the Mazda MX5 when it first came out. Dedicated to a specific and no comprimise. I was stunned it did not take off like wild fire and more stunned when it was discontinued. But I do remember one racing against H16s. It was faster but the guy could just not make it tack. It is a fabulous family boat with the jib in the right hands. We have a family of dad and kids who use one here for play and have a ball.

Re: One more time [Re: pbisesi] #110563
06/29/07 05:42 PM
06/29/07 05:42 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Mark Schneider  Offline
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Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Hi Pat

I completely forgot about the start fiasco.
It was truly ugly when every class was awarded a start... the sequence at Gunpowder took 35 minutes to complete one year..10 minute sequence plus 16 A, B and C plus 17's 18's and 20;s... (Open started on the 5 minute gun). Worse.. you would only have a handful of boats in most of these starts... Yes.. the C fleet would go one lap and then sit for half an hour.... Not fun.

It took forever (years) to get the starts down to three..
16's, + 17's and 18's. + open and 20's The HCA rules did not speed this process up if I remember... Lots of noise about wuf wuf wuf... Our three boats deserve a hobie class start... its a hobie regatta after all and that is what the rules say.

Many dinghy clubs on the bay will run regattas with just two classes.. It makes it easy to manage the water and the property. Yacht clubs who host large annual regattas have to be careful to keep the action moving. eg multiple courses or clever management. The last one we attended, Rock Hall set a winward leeward course and had you finish up wind above the A mark ... then Cruise back to the start line. Certainly spread the boats out (two cat classes and 3 or 4 monohull classes). (kind of hard to P when you are single handed and have to keep moving...)

Mark


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: Wouter] #110564
06/29/07 06:02 PM
06/29/07 06:02 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 337
Victoria, Australia
C2 Mike Offline
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C2 Mike  Offline
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Victoria, Australia
Quote
Tigermike is right here :

Quote

In your list I didn't see any Hobie products in the boats you previously owned and think your chip about hobie-cat would prevent that from happening no matter what they built.



The bloody guy sails and owns both the Hydra 16 and the Taipan 4.9; there is no way he is ever going to be satisfied with any Hobie beach cat product.

Some Hobie guys need to get out more; there is a whole other beach cat world out there.

Although I do agree that Warbird is coming on a bit strong.

Wouter


I really don't care what he sails. If another manufacturer doesn't make a product that fits with you want then that is fine. Sail what suits your needs. It's entirely different to accuse them of being greedy so-and-so's etc.

Tiger Mike

Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: warbird] #110565
06/29/07 06:18 PM
06/29/07 06:18 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 337
Victoria, Australia
C2 Mike Offline
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C2 Mike  Offline
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Posts: 337
Victoria, Australia
Quote
You have made this a personal attack Mike, to that degree you can eat a bug.
I never sugested a company should be run at a loss, just that profit is not reason to produce crap product.
I sail a Hydra to sail with a mate who has one and because it is a finely tuned and quality sail..rather than the H16 which is not.
I sail a Nacra 14 beacuse it is fun and tough and a good beater in big wind and WAY better than the H14.
And I sail a Taipan because it is WAY better and faster one man boat than any equal length and weight Hobie product ever will be.
It is not that I can't buy a Hobie, it is that I don't want one and the way they are going, I never will.
You say the Getaway is a good boat..but you wouldn't have one.....imagine that.
Re making money, I paint and sail and live here..where do you live Mike? How often are you on the motorway..the nearest is 300k away from my life..money is well second in my life style choices.

And you are wrong mike, as the Tiger comes into a price range I think it's worth I will have one...or a Nacra 17..whichever comes first.


When you start to throw stones, don't be surprised when others come back with rocks. When you say that all CEO's are ripping every body off in every corporation - that is offensive. Don't play all innocent when it comes back to bite you.

I really don't care where you live or what you do - I just hope you are happy. I'm happy where I live and work hard to make a contribution to society managing several businesses and volunteer organizations. I'm sure my lifestyle would not suit you and that is fine but I love it and am very happy. You do what you do, don't crap on others who make different choices.

Tiger Mike

Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: warbird] #110566
06/29/07 06:20 PM
06/29/07 06:20 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 337
Victoria, Australia
C2 Mike Offline
enthusiast
C2 Mike  Offline
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Posts: 337
Victoria, Australia
Quote
To Tiger Mike and all other Hobie sailors. I want to make an unreserved appology. We all sail cats for fun and excitement and much needed release of pressure and all sorts of other good reasons.
Good luck to you Mike and and your racing and to the dad who is trying to relax and treat his kids on the Hobie Getaway. There is nothing pretty about a boat snob and that is what I was being.
I beleive some of what I said about a need for better business practice but when I read back over this thread I am out of line.


No worries. Time to go for a sail....

Tiger Mike

Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: bsquared] #110567
06/29/07 06:22 PM
06/29/07 06:22 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 337
Victoria, Australia
C2 Mike Offline
enthusiast
C2 Mike  Offline
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Victoria, Australia
Quote
Still looking for an answer to an ealier question; is there an active European or Australian turnout in a two-man 18-20 foot non-spin boat?


We get about a dozzen or so TheMightyHobie18's to our state titles every year. Maybe up to 20 at a nationals depending on the location. That is all that I can think of.

Tiger Mike

Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: C2 Mike] #110568
06/29/07 10:53 PM
06/29/07 10:53 PM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,147
Bay of Islands, NZ
W
warbird Offline
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warbird  Offline
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Bay of Islands, NZ
MIke, Enron is an example of just what thieving B....s corperates are. Give me a break, it is not your nonsense that backed me off it is how I view myself and how I like to present. I do not mean to denigrate the boats of others and I appologised for that but I don't slip into the stupid category either. In my time I have had six settlements from corporates, phone companies etc. I have taken them on myself and the only reason they have had to pay out settlements is that in general corperate attitude is theft by deciept and I am good at catching them.

Your self righteous offence and defence of corperate strategy is vacuous and pathetic because at no time was the finger pointed at you and or the work you do. You chose to be offened for all corporates and if you think average corporate behaviour is honest, you are naive.

I hope you are happy to Mike, but do you know what, I think you are too angry to be happy.

Last edited by warbird; 06/29/07 10:59 PM.
Re: One more time [Re: Ziv_Levanon] #110569
06/30/07 02:42 AM
06/30/07 02:42 AM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 545
Brighton, UK
grob Offline
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grob  Offline
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Brighton, UK
Quote
if by selling Getaways Hobie is getting back to the masses than they are doing the very right thing. cat sailing is not only about racing...as a matter of fact mybe 15% are racing...the rest are out there to have fun and enjoy themselfs in a reasonable price


Good to hear a voice of reason, remember Hobie is making this decision based on boat sales and boat sales are what benefits cat sailing most, sailing snobbery against rotomoulded cats does not benifit cat sailing. Many of these boats go to resorts where even more people get to sail them.

I think catsailing will benifit more from two rotomoulded cat sales than one racing boat sale. Therefore concentrating your efforts on the higher selling models benefits not only your bottom line but the sport in general.

Gareth

Re: One more time [Re: grob] #110570
06/30/07 03:02 AM
06/30/07 03:02 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,449
P
phill Offline
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phill  Offline
veteran
P

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,449
Gareth,
You make a very good point.

Exposing new people to cat sailing in a pleaseant fun environment like a resort would have to be a good move
and leave a lasting positive impression of the sport.

Much better getting new sailors and expanding the sailing base than just moving the chairs around the deck of a sinking ship.

So it is quite reasonable to conclude that any company that can get cats into resorts is also helping grow the sport in general.

Regards,
Phill


I know that the voices in my head aint real,
but they have some pretty good ideas.
There is no such thing as a quick fix and I've never had free lunch!

Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: warbird] #110571
06/30/07 04:00 AM
06/30/07 04:00 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 337
Victoria, Australia
C2 Mike Offline
enthusiast
C2 Mike  Offline
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Posts: 337
Victoria, Australia
Quote
MIke, Enron is an example of just what thieving B....s corperates are. Give me a break, it is not your nonsense that backed me off it is how I view myself and how I like to present. I do not mean to denigrate the boats of others and I appologised for that but I don't slip into the stupid category either. In my time I have had six settlements from corporates, phone companies etc. I have taken them on myself and the only reason they have had to pay out settlements is that in general corperate attitude is theft by deciept and I am good at catching them.


Uhhh I hope we both realize that I wasn't trying to say that every corporation are model citizens. That said, even in Enron's case, it was a handful of very corrupt people who were in very powerful positions that bought the whole thing down. I'd suspect that more were involved than were actually charged however in the context of the company that handful tainted many thousands of honest people who worked hard, all for naught. Surely you don't think HC discontinuing the H20 places them in the Enron league.

Quote
Your self righteous offence and defence of corperate strategy is vacuous and pathetic because at no time was the finger pointed at you and or the work you do. You chose to be offened for all corporates and if you think average corporate behaviour is honest, you are naive.


I'm not offended for all corporates but I will defend myself when people make stupid statements to which I am part of the sub-set. As for corporate honesty - believe it or not - I have been around the block once or twice and even when I have had a run-in with another company (I think it's a fact of life with everybody from time to time), in all situations it has been a case of an honest screw up or lack of communication that is the root of the problem. I'd suggest that out and out dishonesty is actually quite rare.

Quote
I hope you are happy to Mike, but do you know what, I think you are too angry to be happy.


Thanks for the diagnosis Mr Freud. Actually most people who know me personally (face to face) have a very different opinion. Thanks for the sentiment anyway - believe me - I am very content and I don't loose any sleep over being annoyed about anything.

Cheers,
Tiger Mike

Re: One more time [Re: grob] #110572
06/30/07 05:21 AM
06/30/07 05:21 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe

The only 15 % race fallicy:

I have to disagree to some extent with the notion that the fact that only 15 % race means that the other 85 % who don't race carry much more weight in whole sailing scene.

We have personally found that even small but active race groups keep sailing clubs alive. Loose even such a 10 to 15 % group of active racers and the club will see a significant downturn and with it growth and boat sails.

It is like motor bike or automobile racing. Only 0.5 % of the cars build actually race once or more in their life span, STILL it is a major consideration to car builders. Why because it is all about product placing and public perception. Every recreational sailor and weekend warrior likes to reflect his own endeavours against those of the racing hero's.

At our clubs (I've been personal involved with two of them) we have found that club race day attracts alot more clubmembers then the racers themselfves. Other members know that something will be happening that day and that therefor a good size group will hang around the clubs how creating buzz that they enjoy participating in or interacting with. In fact there are more spectators then races on such a day and often they don't actually watch the racing but engage in conversations with others while enjoying a drink and generally have a good time.

In one club we lost this racing scene to mismanagement and surprisingly enough the "good fun" days were almost immediately gone. And interestingly enough in a club with about 100 boats on its parking for 15 to 20 years and an active club racing fleet of ONLY 10 boats, it collapsed to 50 to 60 boats in parking and no racing fleet within some 2 to 3 years. In effect is lost 40 to 50 boats when only 10 boats quite club racing. It has not recovered yet and probably won't soon.

At the club I'm at now similar things had happened a few years earlier and when I switch clubs, because I was an active club racer at the time, they had just initiated a major effort to bring back their club racing. Since then the club has done all right again and a few crews from 2 neighbouring clubs sail over on race day to join us on race day. Again the group is not big in its entirety. about 10-15 boats.

So never ever underestimate the footprint of 10-15 % of the cataraman scene or any sport. This is the group that is pulling the other 85 % along, they are the back bone that keeps the whole 100% standing up. Strike that down, because indeed this group requires alot of investment for meager returns, and you'll risk bringing the whole scene down.

Why ? Because this group are the active sailors, they are the volunteers, they are the guys who are always around at the club and on the water and welcome new sailors, take people out for test rides and maintain the presence on the net and in the local newspapers, they organise the events and maintain the permits.

The other 85 % of the scene, whether they are sailing glass or rotomoulded boats, are one lazy group of free riders that are absolutely NOT interested in organising anything or even being present/sailing for more then 5 times a year. When this group is left to their own devices then they will totally collapse within 2 to 3 years. Which in turn requires them to trailer their boats back home after each sail, which is again too much for most of this group and so they quit. Thus bringing down the scene with them, incl. the roto stuff sales. Irrespectibally of what happens at the resorts.

I've seen this happen in various forms.

This is just the devils deal one has to make as a company when doing boat building in the small boat sailing scene. You have to maintain the core group of 10-15 % of active sailors (=racers) or risk losing the whole 100 % of the privately owned boats (excl. the resorts). Doing this cost money and effort and there is simply no way around it. That is why alot of builders like to enter formula classes as here the investment in maintaining the active portions is shared over more then one pair of shoulders.

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 06/30/07 05:21 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: C2 Mike] #110573
06/30/07 07:01 AM
06/30/07 07:01 AM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,147
Bay of Islands, NZ
W
warbird Offline
old hand
warbird  Offline
old hand
W

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,147
Bay of Islands, NZ
Mike, you have put your point to me in a reasonable way. Thank you. I take it on board.
Hope you had a good sail.

Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: warbird] #110574
06/30/07 08:25 AM
06/30/07 08:25 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Karl_Brogger  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Jesus! This is just getting stupid.

Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: Karl_Brogger] #110575
06/30/07 09:48 AM
06/30/07 09:48 AM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 393
Syracuse,N.Y
pbisesi Offline
enthusiast
pbisesi  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 393
Syracuse,N.Y
What's with all the level headed reasonable statements by Wouter.
Only one thing can take a guys edge off like that.
A women and then a kid.
Wouter,..What's her name and when are the kids coming?


Pat Bisesi Fleet 204
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: pbisesi] #110576
06/30/07 10:27 AM
06/30/07 10:27 AM

A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A



Quote
What's with all the level headed reasonable statements by Wouter.
Only one thing can take a guys edge off like that.
A women and then a kid.
Wouter,..What's her name and when are the kids coming?


TigerMike making personal attacks.... Check

pbessi making personal attacks.... Check

mbounds drinking the cool-aid pretty hard.... Still waiting

come on lets complete this Hobie thread guys.

Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: warbird] #110577
06/30/07 11:42 AM
06/30/07 11:42 AM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,921
Michigan
PTP Offline
Carpal Tunnel
PTP  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,921
Michigan
Quote
MIke, Enron is an example of just what thieving B....s corperates are. Give me a break, it is not your nonsense that backed me off it is how I view myself and how I like to present. I do not mean to denigrate the boats of others and I appologised for that but I don't slip into the stupid category either. In my time I have had six settlements from corporates, phone companies etc. I have taken them on myself and the only reason they have had to pay out settlements is that in general corperate attitude is theft by deciept and I am good at catching them.

Your self righteous offence and defence of corperate strategy is vacuous and pathetic because at no time was the finger pointed at you and or the work you do. You chose to be offened for all corporates and if you think average corporate behaviour is honest, you are naive.

I hope you are happy to Mike, but do you know what, I think you are too angry to be happy.


Are you a PI attorney? The only things worse than corrupt companies are PI attorneys.

Last edited by PTP; 06/30/07 11:44 AM.
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: pbisesi] #110578
06/30/07 12:33 PM
06/30/07 12:33 PM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 545
Brighton, UK
grob Offline
addict
grob  Offline
addict

Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 545
Brighton, UK
Quote
The other 85 % of the scene, whether they are sailing glass or rotomoulded boats, are one lazy group of free riders


Yes thats the kind of level headed reasonable statement I have come to expect.

I don't know how your club operates but in the clubs I have been inolved in in the UK, all members have to help out and do duties. That inlcudes those that sail only 5 times a year. You have to understand that as peoples life priorities change (usually kids) we cannot all sail every weekend. And I don't think that the 15% (or whatever number it is) that race regularly are more important or do more to promote the sport than the 85% that don't.

Gareth

Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: grob] #110579
06/30/07 05:03 PM
06/30/07 05:03 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe

Quote

I don't know how your club operates but in the clubs I have been inolved in in the UK, all members have to help out and do duties. That inlcudes those that sail only 5 times a year.


It is the same at our club and the other one I was a member of. However, these people just show up to a prearranged schedule and do their duty. The guys and gal organising the whole shabang, making the schedules, preparing the work etc are still mainly those 15 % of the whole group.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: pbisesi] #110580
06/30/07 05:06 PM
06/30/07 05:06 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe

Sorry to disappoint you Pat, but that isn't it.

Maybe it is just that my new career is agreeing with me alot better.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: One more time [Re: Wouter] #110581
06/30/07 05:08 PM
06/30/07 05:08 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 337
Victoria, Australia
C2 Mike Offline
enthusiast
C2 Mike  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 337
Victoria, Australia
Quote

In one club we lost this racing scene to mismanagement and surprisingly enough the "good fun" days were almost immediately gone. And interestingly enough in a club with about 100 boats on its parking for 15 to 20 years and an active club racing fleet of ONLY 10 boats, it collapsed to 50 to 60 boats in parking and no racing fleet within some 2 to 3 years. In effect is lost 40 to 50 boats when only 10 boats quite club racing. It has not recovered yet and probably won't soon.


Interesting observations. I wouldn't have picked such a dramatic effect. I know we are getting a bit off the topic but what do you mean by mis-management? What sorts of things happened and how did you (I mean as a group) turn the situation around?

Cheers,
Tiger Mike

Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: PTP] #110582
06/30/07 06:37 PM
06/30/07 06:37 PM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,147
Bay of Islands, NZ
W
warbird Offline
old hand
warbird  Offline
old hand
W

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,147
Bay of Islands, NZ
I am an artist and work or don't work when I want.
Most people are just treading the mill and trying to get ahead and cannot find time or energy to fight back.
I know that electronically I can create company records that I can request under or official information act to trap the companies in their deciept.
Most companies these days record all phone conversations. These too can be requested.
The mendacity of the typical company is easy to trap these days given these sorts of records.
I have a problem with my contract provided router. I know every time I turn it off it will show on the service providers records. SO I do not have to ring and wait for 20 minutes to tell my provider this. I just ell them once by phone that the problem is a continuing one and I will ring if it gets better...
I have to pay in advance for the service so the company, knowing my router is not providing promised service are not fulfilling their contract with me in an honest way. I have paid, they are not providing.
When people say they will ring back and don't the conversation in which they made promises is recorded so one request for all this information supplies me with a company provided record with which I can take then to a disputes tribunal. They cannot use a lawyer and drive my costs up. They will fold before the disputes tribunal and give me a substantial credit and a new router.
My dealings with companies tell me this. Never trust them and presume they are knowingly in the wrong.

Last edited by warbird; 06/30/07 06:43 PM.
Re: One more time [Re: C2 Mike] #110583
07/01/07 04:58 AM
07/01/07 04:58 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Quote

Interesting observations. I wouldn't have picked such a dramatic effect. I know we are getting a bit off the topic but what do you mean by mis-management?



Scheduling significantly less club races per year. Not being on top of who has race committee duty for the day. Cancelling races when say only 6 boats are going to race when the club house rules dictate 7 boats at minimum. Doing only 1 race a day because the conditions weren't perfect. Taking 1 hour or more breaks between each individual race. Would take forever for the results to be posted. General slacking on everything related to club racing.


Quote

What sorts of things happened and how did you (I mean as a group) turn the situation around?


What happened was that the active crews started second guessing "the racing", so if the inland had some grey skies then more and more crews would not even go to the beach. This resulted in the club getting less often the minimal amount of racers and more often cancelling the race day to the sachrine of the crews that did show up. Within a very short time no crews showed up at all unless the conditions were absolutely perfect (which is rare). With this club activity gone less recreational sailors showed and the active sailing started going to neighbouring clubs to do racing. From then on it was downhill very quickly. Some aggrevating happens were added to that and that was that.

I'm one of the crews that switched in that period. I was one of the last to do so but I have never looked back. The latter 2 years just weren't the same as the period before. I didn't feel any connection to the club anymore and it is hard to be friends with crews that are on the beach only 5 times a year or less. I felt lonely and figured I got never feel worse then that after I switch and only feel better so I did.

The club I'm not had similar happens right before I became a member there and they solved this by giving extra attention and status to the club racing. They find 2 volunteers (active sailor) to become the dedicated RC of the club, put money into maintaining a RC boat that could do the RC work in all conditions and just scheduled club races every weekend were there wasn't racing outside of the club. This means about 9 to 10 race days per season and our season runs from april to october. So on average a club race day in every two weeks.

The dedicated RC we had was firm in everything. They layed down full race-course that would also be found at larger events and they would always lay out the course irrespectabally of the weather and how many boats would show up. Even when the winds were non-existant or downright nuclear, they would show up to the club, make preparations and postpone the racing the wait for improvements. If the winds were within 3 knots and 25 knots then the racing would be held, rain, sunshine, cold, didn't matter. The races were always done back to back, so no return to the beach for lng breaks. Preliminary Results were read out loud while the racing crews were drinking a beer at the club house. Neighbouring clubs were actively invited and kept up to date on our club racing.

What happened. All the crews would show up EVEN when the conditions were mostly likely to bad to race. But because you can now unless you have stood on the beach for a while all crews didn't take the risk of losing out on several points and came anyway. Most definately also because everybody would be there anyway, and it would always be great fun drinking with the others and generally talking non-sense. Of course other club members would show up as well and the group in the bar could be quite large. Producing results including the times lead to the crews really going for it, trying to improve themselves over the season. Newbies showed up and felt more secure because alot of more experienced sailors were out there with them often giving valuable advice. Etc, etc, etc.

From there the club racing scene crew back and quite a few crews bought brand new boats over the years. They felt they could justify it and several of them started racing outside of the club racing scene.

This active group of about 15 crews bought (new) over the last 3 years : 3 Infusions, 2 Tigers, 1 Capricorn, 2 inter-20, 1 FX-one and 3 F16's. The other crews bought relatively new second handers and/or 1 year old suits of sails to upgrade. In general this group is creating turn-over beyond their numerical size. Just outside of this group I believe 2 new nacra 500, 2 new nacra 570, 1 new nacra 580 and a handful of second handers were bought. Some of this group are recreational racers/sailors but of a relatively active grade. 2/3 of our clubmembership is old beaten up boats which are badly maintained and who show up less then 5 time a season. In this group there is no money to be earned next to their membership fees. But they do enjoy the buzz of the larger club from time to time, looking at new boats bought, talking with the new owners, asking for a testride. And this buzz comes from ....

You'll get the point

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 07/01/07 05:01 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: 16nut] #110584
07/10/07 03:19 AM
07/10/07 03:19 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 29
malgray Offline
newbie
malgray  Offline
newbie

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 29
WOW what a marathon!
I have been a catsailor in Australia for thirty years. I have been a Hobie dealer for more than half of those. I've seen the boom and I've seen the bust. Things here appear similar to how they are in the USA.
People still love catamaran SAILING but they increasingly couldn't give a rats rectum about catamaran RACING. Maybe that is because the racing fraternity is full of painfully opinionated people who bleat on, with utopian ideals?
Right now I can't get enough used Hobie Cats. Everybody wants one but no one turns up to racing regattas.
Over the years, I've conducted youth training and regattas. I have sponsored and run many racing clinics. I formed the F18 class here. Our racing numbers are still declining.
I am glad that I have a rotomold range of boats and sailing kayaks to sell and make money from, so that I can stay in business long enough for Catamaran racing to become popular again.(if it ever happens)
Instead of criticizing Hobie for choosing to run a business in a way so that it EXISTS in the future, may I suggest that some of you could use your energy to promote the sport.
Some plastic boats are recyclable

Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: malgray] #110585
07/10/07 09:27 AM
07/10/07 09:27 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,459
Annapolis,MD
Keith Offline
veteran
Keith  Offline
veteran

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,459
Annapolis,MD
Quote
WOW what a marathon!
I have been a catsailor in Australia for thirty years. I have been a Hobie dealer for more than half of those. I've seen the boom and I've seen the bust. Things here appear similar to how they are in the USA.
People still love catamaran SAILING but they increasingly couldn't give a rats rectum about catamaran RACING. Maybe that is because the racing fraternity is full of painfully opinionated people who bleat on, with utopian ideals?
Right now I can't get enough used Hobie Cats. Everybody wants one but no one turns up to racing regattas.
Over the years, I've conducted youth training and regattas. I have sponsored and run many racing clinics. I formed the F18 class here. Our racing numbers are still declining.
I am glad that I have a rotomold range of boats and sailing kayaks to sell and make money from, so that I can stay in business long enough for Catamaran racing to become popular again.(if it ever happens)
Instead of criticizing Hobie for choosing to run a business in a way so that it EXISTS in the future, may I suggest that some of you could use your energy to promote the sport.
Some plastic boats are recyclable


Well, again, I don't anyone here begrudges the fact that Hobie makes what it makes to stay in business - we're happy about that, really. But people here are bummed that our side of the sport seems to not be in Hobie's business plan anymore.

Also - be careful, lots of us here are actively involved in keeping the sport going and growing. If it weren't for some of our efforts the sport would already be gone in more areas than it is. I feel bummed that the Hobie dealer literally around the corner from our Fleet has no interest in what is going on in their backyard simply because they feel the day of 100 boat regattas is over. Maybe if there was a little interest we could help bring those days back. In the meantime our new OD fleets are A-Cat, Nacra-20, and probably soon to be F-16. In addition to the regular open class (I mean X-boats).

We have continued to pull 14 boats for every Tuesday night race this year. While that doesn't sound like much, that's up from just around 5 boats a few years ago, and it's every Tuesday night. And that's in addition to the A-Cat and N-20 OD schedule that also goes on In Galesville for the West River Sailing club.

Anyways, I wish continued success to Hobie and all its dealers. I also can't wait to see what's next out of Vectorworks.

Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: Keith] #110586
07/10/07 01:56 PM
07/10/07 01:56 PM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 393
Syracuse,N.Y
pbisesi Offline
enthusiast
pbisesi  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 393
Syracuse,N.Y
Hobie Cat Company is interested in our side of the sport(Racing).
There are 215 team registered for the H16 Worlds. They will all sail on factory supplied boats.
There are old salts like John Hauser, past Champions like Hobie P Alter(Jr.)with his son and young guns like Fleet 204's own Matt Perkins and Mike Siau going to sail the opens and represent the USA.
They continue to support the Class Association by helping with newsletter printings, lots of raffle prizes for regattas and have supplied H16's and Tigers for Alter cups along with US Sailing Youth Championships. I could go on, but maybe you just can't see it sailing another brand of boat. You can't expect to get dealer support when you buy someone else's boat. They have to put their attention where it will bring a return.
My feeling for some time is the H16 will stay strong, the Tiger will do well,mainly from the work of the F18 class, and the other Hobie boats will hang around for years even if they are not building new ones.

There are 94 boats for Div 16's Mini-Mega with people still looking for charter boats.
Mini-Mega


Pat Bisesi Fleet 204
Re: Hobie 20 Discontinued [Re: pbisesi] #110587
07/11/07 08:34 AM
07/11/07 08:34 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,459
Annapolis,MD
Keith Offline
veteran
Keith  Offline
veteran

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,459
Annapolis,MD
Quote
Hobie Cat Company is interested in our side of the sport(Racing).
There are 215 team registered for the H16 Worlds. They will all sail on factory supplied boats.
There are old salts like John Hauser, past Champions like Hobie P Alter(Jr.)with his son and young guns like Fleet 204's own Matt Perkins and Mike Siau going to sail the opens and represent the USA.
They continue to support the Class Association by helping with newsletter printings, lots of raffle prizes for regattas and have supplied H16's and Tigers for Alter cups along with US Sailing Youth Championships. I could go on, but maybe you just can't see it sailing another brand of boat. You can't expect to get dealer support when you buy someone else's boat. They have to put their attention where it will bring a return.
My feeling for some time is the H16 will stay strong, the Tiger will do well,mainly from the work of the F18 class, and the other Hobie boats will hang around for years even if they are not building new ones.

There are 94 boats for Div 16's Mini-Mega with people still looking for charter boats.
Mini-Mega


Hobie OD racing on the Chesapeake is dead. I know there are other areas that are active and that Hobie supplies boats. Excellent. However, the only action now on the Bay is Open class and the other established OD classes mentioned. And we've been growing it. My approach to the dealer at the boat show was not as an owner of another boat, but as the Captain of a local Fleet literally in their backyard wondering if they wanted to participate. I'm not asking them to support my non-Hobie boat. But I do wonder why they wouldn't like to see some presence for their product in a growing scene. And my comment about Hobie not paying attention to our side of the sport is regarding their dwindling product lineup for the non-roto crowd.

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