Windswept wrote


This is an interesting point that merits some discussion.

I have been curious why the Hobie17 sailors haven't been attracted to the A class.

Secondly, Why has the class growth stalled in some regions (New England) or not taken off in others (Michigan).

Of course the cost and availability of the boat factors in... but the 17 sailors probably have the cash to buy the toys they want and the 17 is no longer in production. You might think that the sailors would quickly gravitate to the growing A fleet where new boats are coming online. But this is not happening.

So… here is my current take on the issue.

Seems to me that a major factor is the kind and nature of the racing opportunities in your region and the group of individuals who go racing on those weekends. The weapon of choice is really third or lower on the list of factors that matter.

So, If the A class primarily sails on a weeknight (Bristol Yacht Club) and doesn't compete on weekends... (New England region, 1 event a year) The A class would not work for you unless you lived near the club and could race on Tuesday night. This seems to be the case for any club with mast up storage and a racing program (EG the Sandy Hook fleet of every cat produced doesn’t tend to travel much.. The boats are there and they get their fill of racing locally.

So, In the Mid Atlantic region. If you want to go racing on weekends, the Hobie 17 racing program of Hobie Div 11 and one event in MD suits your life and interests … the current A class program in Maryland doesn’t replace the 17 program geographically, (distance to events) socially (all men socials versus families and couples sailing 16’s and 18’s at multi class regattas) or with an appropriate weekend schedule (regatta every couple of weeks with a fleet of sailors who reliably go racing)

If you live in the CRAM region… the single hander of choice is the F17 by nacra….and before that… the 5.5uni… No oxygen for the A class to get going in this region.

So to say
“The racing in the A-class is growing and getting more exciting.”


I agree, this is very true and just part of the story!

racers seem to factor

1) Geography (How close are the events to where you live)

2) Temporality (When are the events and can you get to them)

3-4) Social Structure (Does the fleet reliably turnout and go racing… Is their a social scene…party… etc etc that matches what you are looking for)

4-3) Competition ( How accomplished is the fleet of sailors and do you fit in with them. You might be just a weekend sailor with moderate skill and simply not fit into the competitive structure of a fleet with lots of international experience. (it sucks to finish a leg behind the majority of the fleet)

5) Boat (Do you like to sail this particular boat and how much does high end performance matter to you versus other factors like geography schedule social structure competition)

Dan Delave as F18 class pres is trying to work through similar issues in growing the F18 fleet across North America. Wouter H has wrestled with these issues for the F16 class as well.

(These comments ought to stir the pot up in the lazy hazy days of summer in the Northern hemisphere…. Or the long cold winter days for you Aussies and Brazilians)

Thought's or Comments!
Mark Schneider

Except that there are no cold winter days in Rio. I'm dressed in shorts, tshirt, no socks - and it is the month's coldest day.
We'll have to sleep without the air conditioner tonight.

I can only speak for myself - the boat was the most important choice for me. I wanted to sail solo with a spinnaker and I wanted to be able to sail with a friend occasionally. I'm completely fine sailing Portsmouth and so having the only boat of my class in our fleet doesn't bother me at all (actually I kind of like being different from everyone else).

Your choice is understandable.

Now put on the hat that said Fleet Commodore for you boat... Now what would you do? How do you grow your class or maintain interest? After all, the job is to enroll others in your flavor of fun!

With respect to the F16's I can be totally honest.

By far the biggest reasons the current F16 sailors have chosen for their boats are largely unrelated to the points you provide.

For F16's the main reasons are :

-1- The desire to use the boat for several different purposes. As in 1-up, 2-up, sailing with kids, racing and recreational sailing, spi and non spi.

-2- The desire to have a lightweight boat with gadgets.


These are the most often cited reasons for purchasing a F16. Several also name the desire to have a spinnaker on the boat by this is often secondary.

Available fleet racing, class structure, geography or "in class skill level" do not seem to factor in at all. It is discussed but never dwelled upon. I had expected these to be more of an issue.

One of the more interesting aspects is that F16's tend to go quite easily into far off places, like new mexico and arizona. On the world stage, like Finland and Shanghai China. A such geography can't be much of a factor.

I feel that the F16 are succesful in expressing a feel and alure of a modern high performance boat without really intimidating the potential buyer to the point were he becomes hesitant. It is still regarded by many as a small boat, although performant.

During test rides I often find that people still expect "a smaller boat", simply because it is 16 foot long and all 16's are ... . But nevertheless they are all totally pre-informed about the gadgets.

What I guess I am trying to describe here is that the F16 buyers are looking for a "manageable pocket rocket" mostly for the enjoyment of having one and sailing it, but not really for the racing or social structure. If F16 sailors turn to racing then it is mostly after they have purchased one for the other reasons and found it to be a competitive racer. Afterall it is always fun to place high in a fleet.

With this in mind, and when doing promo, I try to focus on the F16 versatility and the special feel one can derive of owning something out of the ordinary. With the later I mean, how many 2-up boat do you know that weight 240 lbs ?

Interestingly enough a very large portion of F16 sailors enjoy tinkering with their boats. Rerunning lines, trying a new block.

I guess for many of us it is a more inward forcussed enjoyment we get from these boats.

Selling on racing fleets and performance is hard for us F16's. Mostly because no-one believes the F16 performance before having had a test ride and secondly racing fleets like the F18's, A-cat and also the H16's are alot more glamorous then us. In customer perception we always loose on these points.

As a class chairman and also as promoter I have actively tried to install a policy of being confident to race everybody and everything. Partly because of the above stated issues, but also very much to open the minds of the sailors. I believe in the saying that you have got to set people free to keep them. That many react positively to opening up their choices rather then assuring them by regulating everything. People I talked to reacted positively to a "can do !" feel to the boat and class. As such I feel half of the F16 class promotion is to sell this concept. To have people play the game of high performance sailing on ALL fronts. Not only the refine your sailing skills but also tweaking your boat to suit your style of sailing the best. This arcs back into "fiddling with your F16" point referred to earlier.

Organisation is also hard because as a group we are like herding a bunch of cats. Again as crews we are more inwardly focussed. But as a result of all those individuals and opinions we get an exceptionally active class forum. That forum by itself is practically 85 % of our social class life.

In the beginning I wanted to set-up a class that was different, and I think what I asked for !



Summerized ; F16 seems to pefer to be promoted as :

-1- Versatile
-2- Being lightweight + having modern gadgets
-3- Enjoying specifically the owning of a modern boat and just sailing it.

Racing, available events, social structure (other then the forum) and class skill level have proven to not be significant points for us.

Wouter

Personally I think attracting people to the sport in general is the bigger challenge. I love the fact that there are a lot of different classes in CRAW. For people who have similar objectives, interests and constraints as I do, I think my particular class sells itself as long as the information is there (let me introduce you to Wouter... :-)).

In terms of the question of getting more people involved in racing catamarans, for me the friendly atmosphere at CRAW has been a big draw. I'm deeply lacking in experience and ability, but have felt very welcome there nonetheless.

But to be more proactive, it might also be interesting to try something like an annual regatta where you have to sail with a crew who has never raced a cat before - as a way of getting the word out.

A good idea to introduce people but what about follow up. I used to take a lot of people out for fun rides. Some were freaked out but all enjoyed the experieince as I always try to include them in the sailing process. The trick is follow up, getting them back out there before they just see it as a memory.
Clubs might have a couple of bangers that are working well, easy to sail and get them out there under their own steam. Then follow up again with help ( advice, location and inspection) buying own boat. I was at a loss when I looked for my first cat and had sailed monos a lot in younger days.

Class is an interesting concept as well...
Since the discussion is What factors are “Growing class involvement”
We should agree on the meaning of “Class”
Back in the day, a Class was defined as a minimum of 5 of the same kind of boats at the event. The class had a fleet captain, rules etc etc. The class was the people who moved as a group of people to regattas and dragged along the same kind of boat.

People would say… “Oh… the Hobie 16 is a great class… meaning the people…who also dragged along a Hobie 16.” Or the Flying Scott is a family oriented class…. Etc etc.

I see that you are using the word Class some what differently. You seem to refer to the different types of boats out racing… You might say... we had 5 classes racing today... eg one of each of a different type of boat. So, in this day and age... Class is not referencing the group of people on the beach... its really is used to refer to the boat.... Its interesting how we generally think of this issue. You would probably say... I belong to the F16 class... (lots of brand loyality, recognition, etc etc come your way) Yet, in reality you belong to the Portsmouth Class in your area. The Portsmouth class is the group of sailors on the beach that you will race against and you happen to each drag a different kind of boat around. Notice though ... NOBODY walks around and announces.. Well, I belong to the Portsmouth class!

So, when the observation is made. “the racing in the A class is growing and getting more exciting” …The observation is being made about the group of people.

Notice that in a separate Post, Bob Hodges listed the Sailors who are attending the worlds and his emphasis on their high powered sailing chops… (Olympics, Medals, etc etc).. Bob is using the term CLASS to reference the people and highlighting the competition that will occur. …

Wouter, I think correctly summarizes the thought process of the F16 buyer. CLASS in the traditional sense of the word would not be high on the list of factors.

Your decision was probably
Boat.
Geography
When does the Portsmouth racing occur.
Social Structure (CRAW fleet accepts your particular flavor of boat)
Competition
Class Structure. (no other F16’s around the area so you can’t have much of a class)

The Hobie 17 sailor is ranking these factors as I previously suggested and so not interested in the A class just to the south.

I bought an A Class
The decision for me was Boat (high performance)
Class structure (15 of em a half hour away)
Geography
Racing schedule
Competition.

So… if you are trying to grow your class (or explain the growth or lack their of)… What if anything is there to do?

Do you consider Geography, Boat, Schedule, Competition, Class Structure /loyalty and change your program to grow. Or are things good as they are?
Do you focus on getting novices into cat racing from the beginning?
Do you focus on getting novices into sailing a cat first?
Should the F16’s try to get a nationals going in North America?
Should the F18’s try to support three nationals in 2008?
Should the A class continue with their existing program of focusing on single yacht clubs as focal points?
Should the Hobie 20, 17 and 18 classes make any local rules changes now that the boats are out of production?
Should the Taipan 4.9 class embrace the square top main?
Should the Hobie 16 class embrace the spinnaker? (Its just a rhetorical question in this list (grin)?
Should Hobie regattas go back to 5 boats equal a class race… otherwise.. go home?
Should Hobie regattas score hobies that don’t make class(5 boats) in Hobie Open?
Should Hobie regattas run Open Class?
Should Hobie regattas run F18 class?
Should the F16 single handers try to schedule events with the F17 single handers?
Should we really support the SL16 Youth boat… or try to forget about it?
Should we get behind the Hobie 16 no spin as the youth boat?
Should the F18’s try to bump the Hobie 16 from the Pan Am games in order to grow their class?
Should Portsmouth set a threshold for CLASS participation of a Nationals with 5 or more boats as a minimum for getting a gold standard rating… Everyone else keeps their historical rating or gets a provisional rating until they make the threshold of a nationals with 5 boats?
Will the Tornado Class have a surprise featherweight team in the competition in China because the class voted down the change by not getting the 2/3 vote (failed by an eyelash)?

As once said… enquiring minds want to know?

We are hoping to see this nifty new Lindahl design tomorrow at the Silver Lake A-cat Invitational!!

Great questions Mark. I have a seven hour drive ahead of me tomorrow to get to a regatta and work still to get done tonight so will have to defer further response till I get back. One quick comment though - the idea of the F16 class - a multi-manufacturer restricted development box rule class with activity on several continents - was also strongly influential in my decision to go in that direction, so I guess the boat itself wasn't the only factor.

"Should the Hobie 20, 17 and 18 classes make any local rules changes now that the boats are out of production?"
Yes, the class association should start discussing the future, or call it the Hobie 16 class association

"Should the Hobie 16 class embrace the spinnaker? (Its just a rhetorical question in this list (grin)?"
Maybe not, eventually (5 more years best case?) the 17, 18 & 20 will need something else.

"Should Hobie regattas go back to 5 boats equal a class race… otherwise.. go home?" No

"Should Hobie regattas score hobies that don’t make class(5 boats) in Hobie Open?"
A portsmouth class within a Hobie regatta? now that's interesting, in light of reduced numbers and the future of the dead boats, not a bad idea. So many times I see a guy who sailed 17 when only two or three showed up, not do well on Saturday and be ready to pack it up after Saturday night's dinner, no chance of winning or improving place, no doubt a frustrating situation. Maybe I should re-think the 5 boat minimum answer.

"Should Hobie regattas run Open Class?" sigh

"Should Hobie regattas run F18 class?"
Definitely, non-Tigers wouldn't get Hobie points, and how many Tigers are actually "chasing points"?

Hmm... your one and only chance to start or agitate for the wheels of change is next week at the Hobie AGM meeting...

Those of us who are not members of the class would appreciate knowing that possible changes you selected were discussed, considered and a decision made. That would be progress from the outsiders point of view

If we are all in this boat together... it's comforting to know that the other side is pulling hard on the oars and in the same direction.

Mark

Unfortunately, not making the trip to Alameda this year.

I believe we all have to be in this boat together regardless of "the edict", that was ONE change. With the recent changes made by HCC (17, 18, 20) serious thought of the future needs to start now (IMHO). There's got to be an in between point or I see it dying. We've talked about the FX1, and the possibilty of it becoming the next dead boat. The promotion of any any cat at a local level is the answer to drawing more people to racing. HCA needs to relax their view of this. Years ago a crillion HCA regattas were available to race, now it involves up to 8-hour drives, that's not newbie friendly news. Sanctioned events look to be fewer and on a regional and national level in the future, unless the Tiger class grows.

I may be a one-man band blowing the horn for a change and there are a lot of people very paranoid about being ousted (post-edict) for doing anything other than the way it was 20 & 30 years ago, but come on people, it's a different world now. Again, there can be some common ground or the whole thing, in certain regions, goes kaput.

I like any opportunity for the Formula 18s to have a venue to sail. What do you get out of it as an organizer? More numbers to help pay for the event.

As far as points go. Maybe chasing the Hobie points does not do much but there are points for the NAF18s that are interesting. Those points will decide who is invited to sail the Worlds in Spain in 2008. For any regatta that 3 Formula 18s show up and is sailed using Formula 18 class rules, which is fair if you are inviting that class, will earn the sailors points for the North American Formula 18s.

Later,
Dan

It would appear that the HCA chair is actually contested this year between Bob and Pedro

Also
Nobody has proposed any changes to the existing program! (see below)

Sort of like voting... if you don't... you don't have much standing when you bitch about the outcomes.

From the Hobie class web site.

Roll Call (Kathy Ward)
Introductions (TBD)
- (Bob Merrick) Regrettably I will not be able to be at the AGM this year. I will be at the Pan Am Games in Brazil, competing in the Hobie 16.



Old Business

Treasurer's report: 2007 financials and 2008 budget (Steve Reese)
Reports (due to Bob Merrick by July 13)

Divisions (Division Chairs)
Division 1 report (Dan Williams)
Division 2 report (Dave Dixon)
Division 3 report (Jason Moore)
Division 4 report (Dave Wilder)
Division 5 report (Stephen Cooley)
Division 6 report (Chris Green)
Division 7 report (Andy Larson)
Division 8 report (Bob Johnson)
Division 9 report (Loyd Graves)
Division 10 report (Jeff Rabidoux)
Division 11 report (Ron Laporta)
Division 12 report (Dave Heroux)
Division 13 report (Alfredo Figueroa)
Division 14 report (Bev Collins)
Division 15 report (Scott Beach)
Division 16 report (Kevin Wilson)
IHCA (Lori Mohney)
Women (Heather Morrison)
Youth (Mimi Appel)
Membership (Tara Ames)
GEP (Kim Edmonds)
Newsletter (Matt Bounds)
Scorekeeper (Bill Jeffers)
Race Department (Paul Ulibarri )
Web site (Rich McVeigh)
New Business

Online membership database proposal(Steve Reese)
Special projects fund proposal (Rich McVeigh)
Carlton Tucker Award Nominations (Kathy Ward)
Hobie 20 Rudders open discussion
HCA officer elections: Executive & appointed officers (Ed Muns) Platform Statements Bob Pedro
Adjourn

Hi Dan

Any Thoughts on these two quesitons?



Tigers in British Columbia
Nacras TBD
F18NA's. TBD



AT LEAST this should be discussed at the AGM at the 16 NA's
don't you think?

Regarding F18s replacing H16s at the PanAm Games - That discussion will be happening at the Games, and the HCA Chair, Bob Merrick is already in on the discussion. This proposal was offered by some South American F18 fleets as an idea - it did not come from NAF18, HCANA, ISAF or IHCA. The US SAILING rep at the meeting following the Games has been brought up to speed on the topic. I think it is very unlikely in the short term - the idea is in its infancy. But there are some good points - pros and cons on each side of the issue. We'll see what happens in Rio.

Hi John

Thanks for the update.

The thread is about strategies to grow a class's participation.

So.. Does the Hobie 16 class... the rank an file... care?
Do they focus on attending the qualifier etc etc.
Is it old hat by now... is it the same old same old names which go forward to represent the USA.

Conversely, Would the F18 Class get really fired up about a qualificaton regatta for the pan am games and generate a competitive fleet, and thus growing the fleet.

Is the F18 class splitting along builder fault lines again and so not able to focus on a credible bid in the USA?

Would something like the Pan Am Games be a real shot in the arm for teh class?

Would it draw the Olympic guys into the fray?

Would that in and of itself be a huge plus for the F18 class?


The politics of how such a move would happen are not my focus here!

I heard what happens in Rio -- stays in Rio! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hi Mark -

This wanders from your topic a little - you and I have had long phone conversations about this stuff before. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

You have to keep in mind what the PanAm Games is supposed to do - offer Olympians some international-flavour competition in the quadrennium leading up to the Olympics. For many sports, the PanAm Games fulfills that intention. Not so for catamaran sailing. Tornado sailors are not going to H16 events to get themselves into the PanAms. There are a few Tornado teams that also sail in the NAF18 class, but F18 in the US does not seem to be the Olympic feeder that it is in the EU or Australia.

During the whole controversy regarding the 2012 Games that we just endured, many of us rejected the notion that the US should only support events in which we felt we had a chance to win. Instead, for the health of the sport, many feel that we should look at the classes competing in the US and world-wide such that the Olympic events reflect the overall sport everywhere - that undoubtedly means a multihull belongs in the Olympics. It is a less-selfish ideal that is difficult to articulate and even harder to stick with. With consideration to the PanAms, obviously, if you campare fleet size within the PanAm region, the H16 dominates and presents lower costs to competitors. The manufacturer did not support this Games, so it was a BYOB event - but there are plenty of competitive H16s out there. To be realistic, the US struggles to get into the top ten at the H16 Continentals when PanAm-region teams show up. It is even tougher at the Worlds. The same can be asserted, to an only-slightly lesser degree, with regard to the F18 class. A Euro team came to last year's NAF18 Nationals and won it, and the US has had inconsistent participation at the F18 Worlds. The F18, however, is indisputably a closer match to the current Olympic equipment, and there is some crossover between Tornado and F18 sailors in the PanAm region.

There is a lot to be considered - if the various PanAm-region F18 class associations can pull together with a clear message that shows real benefit to the whole sport, then there is a chance that the H16 could be replaced. Change is usually met with resistance. If the far-more polically active H16 fleets moved to oppose such a change, things could get contentious... which is bad for the sport overall. It would be far better if those within the ISAF and PanAm Games administrations came to better understand the issue and made a decision that benefits the sport and serves the purpose of the Games. Seeing as our sport represents a terribly small sliver of the PanAm pie, I would be flabbergasted if things unfolded that way, though. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />