I got this letter from Colin Jenkins from England:

You have probably seen this already but it not...

The RYA have made submissions to explicitly drop the cat class from the
Youth Worlds and implicitly to drop the Tornado from the Olympic Games.
There is an online petition available here:-

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/CatamaranSubmission/index.html


There are links to the submissions from there.

CJ

What, they don't like the new French SL16? I thought the Brits loved cats?! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

The RYA love Cats as much as our Historical love of the French <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />
I'm not up to date with my history!! but I don't think a single century has past where we haven't had at least one fight with them.

I remember being in a pub in Brighton (Fiddler's Elbow I think), watching BBC news back when the Chunnel first opened. The BBC reporter was in another pub asking the locals what they thought about being connected directly to France. The locals said they didn't like it. When asked why they don't like France, one of the locals said, "Oh, we love France, it's the French we can't stand!"

I still laugh about that one! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

not so keen on the rya just now !!!! their attitude makes me want to hug a french man , or a welsh one come to think of it !

ex- SandyHookBayCatClub New Jersey sailor.

This issue concerns all Cat sailors.

The British equivalent of US Sailing is trying to remove Cat sailors from the London 2012 Olympics just as US sailing tried a few months ago.

Here in the UK we need your help, please sign the petition.

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/CatamaranSubmission/index.html

Best wishes
John Ready
Tornado GBR 432
http://www.thereadyfamily.com/London2012

How's Stylesy taking it? That friggin sux!

I have looked at the situation of sailing being included in the Olympic games, in general, and cats in particular, now for over 50 years, and I have to say that opinions that I formed and that I felt comfortable with all those years ago, still feel just as comfortable today.
It has always been my opinion that the Olympic organisers think of sailing either as, a necessary evil, or an inconvenience, or something that they wish would just go away and disappear, or at best some sort of tatty little freak side show tagging onto the coat strings of the MAIN event(s), something that very few people are interested in and that is problematic, at best, to organise and control. Today that is compounded as the IOC find it almost impossible to “sell” sailing as a media friendly event for anything any where nearly as profitable as they sell other events for.
I have always found it just a little strange that “way back” in the dim dark ages when sailing first appeared as an event within the “games”, that there wasn’t any movement from within sailing organizations to keep sailing separate from the Olympic games and instead formulate, and run their own “Olympic” games just for sailing. This always seemed to me to be the logical way FOR THE BENEFIT OF OUR SPORT. After all this is exactly what has happened to the winter Olympics and they certainly have not suffered from this separation.
Why does sailing feel that it needs the Olympic games? Sailing has always been more than competent in organising and running a multitude of “world” events without any assistance from the IOC (as well as the ISAF), In fact I would argue that the IOC and particularly the ISAF have held sailing back more than they have assisted it (not to mention the draconian control DEMANDED and profit bleeding from the sport by the ISAF)
Do we really need any of them?

We definitely don't. All we need is the sea, the boats and people who like to sail them.

ISAF, IOC and Olympic Games are disposable. Those "global" organizations are a bunch of parasites with their own agenda and very little to offer. I am particularly anoyed by the fact that the ISAF is so heavily UK biased. And I disagree with the idea of nations competing with other nations in general. It works like a simulation of war that exarcebates nationalisms, allowing for manipulation of the people in order to justify real wars.

Our sport should be governed directly by the sailors through Internet. I feel revolutionary today!

I'm all for it.

I shall make no secret of it. I active disapprove of ISAF and other organisations that created themselves and have just "assumed" leadership over sailing in the same way.

Wouter

Wow, i didn't realise other ppl felt the same way!

ISAF really is a monopoly, they are the only international sailing organisation.

There needs to be some competition.

As long as it dosn't end up like boxing.

TJ

Actually I think that's a good argument in favor of the ISAF. To ncik's point I think we need competition between sailors, not between administrators. Let's not throw the baby out - I believe the issue we're upset about (and we should be) is lack of representation and consultation. In general I think a single international body per se is a good idea.

I've run into a lot of snotty monohullers. I wouldn't mind a separate governing body.

I wonder if we could work something out with USSailing?

While there may be some very minor "scheming" going on to eliminate multihulls in the RYA and prior USSailing bids, these actions largely results from the fact that multihullers, while having a SIGNIFICANT portion of the racing/sailing scene, do not typically participate in these governing organizations. The answer is not to create a new separate organization to take up the fight, but to join and contribute to the existing organizations that are already in place and forget about us because we are not present.

ISAF would not allow us to call our Wave Worlds in Provo the Worlds, because only THEY could grant that name. In other words, they owned the name. HUH?!?!?!? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
We and the Turks and Caicos were threatened that if this event came off, the sailors would be penalized and so would the country.
We lost some sailors that like to attend other World events, but we still had 30 sailors from about 10 countries racing. And we still called it the Worlds.
In order for them to sanction a Worlds, you must have an International Class. Once done, you cannot make changes to your rules unless approved by them, and other such garbage.

Yet, when they want to approve a Worlds of their liking, they drop all the requirements of the class.

Ironic!

Rick

I am not sure just when the ISAF decided that only they had the right to ordain the usage of the word Worlds, but they have enforced this before and recently. I wish I could remember what classes or boats they refused that right to, but I do remember seeing this issue come up before. I am not a fan of these organizations, but MarkMT is right. What we need to do is to participate and gain visible representation within these groups and get in their faces about the needs of multihull sailors. Until we come together and demand a say in our future, we will always get the short shrift.

I agree that sailors should make their own rules.....but then we still need leaders.....to run a country on popular referrendum would be a disaster for minorities....no homos, no jews, no whoever else was out of favour.
Sailing I am sure could suffer in the same way from rejection of the new or different before calm investigation.

The fact is that the leaders need to be found here, by the people who sail the boats.

Rick,

Sorry but I have to disagree with you on nobody taking control of world championships.

I meet a guy at my sailing club who said he was a “world champion”. I sat down trying to gain more knowledge from these “champion”. After a few beers he told me there were five boats at these “world championships”. Three came from his club and two from a neighbouring club. This guy might have been a great sailor but somehow I don’t think I would put in world champion status for beating 4 boats.

If an organisation doesn’t have control of world championships then we shall have more people claiming to be world champions. Under your system you can run your “worlds”, then I could also run a Wave Worlds and claim to be the world champion.

Under the current system while it is not perfect at least some sort of criteria has to be meet. So when I meet a guy in the bar and he claims to be a world champion then at least another organisation recognised the achievement. There were guidelines meet and this person is worthy to be called a world champion. It wasn’t the local yacht club saying in “ The third Sunday of next month we will call it a world championships”.

But that should be the topic of another thread that will surely get a heated debate

This was my post:
RYA appears to have acted unilaterally to remove catamaran sailing from the Olympics. This is not only unfair to the many catamaran sailors in the UK, but includes disenfranchisement of catamaran sailors around the world who have always had much interest in Olympic sailing.
Present and past US Olympic catamaran sailors are always the leaders among the one-design class racers. They are looked up to as having established their credentials by participating or winning Olympic medals. These medals and such participation are always considered as definitive of world-class sailors. I personally know the names of all the cat sailors from the last 15 years, and know a number of them. It would be a terrible loss to American sailors to lose this valuable element.

Perhaps you are confusing morality and legality. The democratic system does not necessarily implies or yields a moral system.

When people want imoral things they vote for them - and get what they voted for. If the majority of the people wanted to live as racists, they would certainly vote for a racist government/law and would eventually get what they voted for. This is one excellent reason to admire the US people: they usually want moral things and vote accordingly.

An example from recent history: when the germans wanted nazis and racism, they voted for it and certainly got what they voted for. The whole thing was 100% legal - including racist laws, organized exterminations, etc., It certainly wasn't a moral system, though.

I believe that allowing people to vote directly each law through Internet, instead of having "people's representatives" vote on their behalf, just makes the democratic process faster and more direct. This does not necessarily endangers a nation's values.

In the german/nazi case, it is possible that some of the people who voted and empowered the nazis, would have voted against racist laws or (more likely) against legal extermination - if they could vote each law through Internet. I guess online voting would have made it possible to change things earlier and avoid lots of suffering.

Naturally it is safer to start learning and adjusting for the faster change pace of such system by means of testing a direct online vote system in less sensitive areas - like worldwide sailing management! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Could we please focus on the issue at hand on this thread.

pls sign the petition if you want to protect the future of catamaran sailng at the highest level. WE NEED YOUR HELP !!

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/CatamaranSubmission/

I agree. This is not a political thread, it is a thread to get catamaran sailors to show their support for the future of multihull sailing at the peak of competitiveness. Sign the petition, voice your concerns to both your national and international governing bodies and be heard.

I signed the petition. Note that a MNA can petition anything that suits its interests, but it is a long way to actually get it.

They are certainly asking for something that the French (or whoever) don't want, only to negotiate dropping the whole thing in exchange for something else they want. It is the political equivalent of kidnapping or blackmail - and I HATE it.

This is the type of thing that the UK does (a lot) to stay on top of ISAF's rankings and Olympic events. It is hardly a surprise that they never won the only race with rules partially made elsewhere: The America's Cup. Don't be surprised if one day the UK presents a submission requesting that ISAF decides everything related to the AC. Match Racing rules were created as a first step in this direction.

We want Direct Democracy NOW! Only a Direct Online Voting System can save our souls! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

This is a link to voice your opion about cats in 2012. There is an exsisting thread that is the response from the RYA.
http://www.the2012londonolympics.com/?
This is the thread link. Sign up and put you say in. I am TornadoSail2012 on the thread.

http://www.the2012londonolympics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8959

Thanks for the link Tom.

I'm curious what people think about how important youth cat sailing is to the health of competitive adult cat sailing. My completely subjective impression, unburdened by any real data, is that many cat sailors joined the sport from monohull sailing well after leaving their youth.

Mark, I think Youth Multihull Events are very important to the growth of Multihull sailing. Check the following link http://www.ussailing.org/championships/youth/multihull/

As example, look at some of the past winners:
Michael Slau, now, one of the top Hobie 16 sailors in all events
Sarah Newberry, Tornado sailor, moving up in the ranks
Eric Raybon,USA rep to the ISAF Worlds this year, and rising Hobie 16 and 17 racer, just to name a few.

Youth Events and Championships ARE the future of Multihull sailing.

Caleb Tarleton
US SAILING Multihull Youth Champ. Comm.

Just for info.
RYA statement on future Olympic and Youth multihull classes
<<http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/?article=138587>>

Looking over some of the data, for example that 29-er fully rigged with spi and all costs ONLY 8750 Euro's, I must say that the cat sailors and their organisations are not playing their game right. Afterall the SL16 (youth boat for cats) costs 13.000 Euro's. I can understand where RYS is coming from when the first 29-er worlds is said to have had 65 crews participating, with 100 crews now. The cat youth classes don't pull that much participation, they're not even close.

This brings us back to the problem of youth sailors in cat classes. Although this problem is compounded by the fact that the 29-er is not really a youth class (as the SL16 is) even though the RYA still sees it that way. They could also have quoted the H16 worlds numbers of over 250 crew participating, among which undoutable a large number of very young people.

They feel no real youth path towards Olympic multihulls (i.e. the Tornado) exists and they are arguable right about that. A Hobie 16 simply does not compare in any way to the olympic Tornado. Actually a crew coming of the 29-er is not expected to find more difficulty in mastering a Tornado then a youth team coming of the Hobie 16. That is not far of the truth.

So how to solve this ?

I have my personal opinions, which do revolve around getting them on well looking and performing cats early on like when they are 12. But what do others think and more important how do we actually get something implemented in real life ! We can argue till we are blue in the face that cats must become alot cheaper then they are now but how do we actually achieve that ?

Wouter

I'll say this as simply as possible: It's not about the boats.

If you don't believe me, the numbers don't lie. I've done some RC work this summer in the mono world (Newport, RI and Narragansett Bay), and am completely blown away by the Opti program (Club 420s numbers are also impressive).

There were 90 boats at a weekend regatta in June (not a championship).

There were over 450 boats entered at one regional championship regatta.

There were 128 at another regional regatta.

A new Opti costs about $3000, in the ballpark of a Hobie Wave. Neither of these boats is a "performance" class (for its respective number of hulls), but the Opti program crushes any youth cat program, period.

I'm not going to guess what the reasons are, but the numbers are tough to deny.

Mike

So why do the opti's have such large attendence and the waves don't ?

Wouter

Vanguard Opti $2,600
nice roof rack $300
Less than $3K

Hobie Wave $4,400
nice roof r...oops! forgot it weighs 245
trailer and beach wheels $1,100
Can't just leave it over here by the shed, we have to pay storage???

F16/A class are in the same ballpark as opti/Wave<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
F12 discussion?

That seems to be the million dollar question, wish I had the answer.

I think there are a lot of elements that add up to this result, I don't think it's a simple equation at all. Otherwise, we could just buy a trailer full of Waves, show up at the yacht clubs, and win over hearts and minds. Wait, didn't we try that?

Mike

I said "about $3000." There are other Opti manufacturers that charge more. My Wave price appears to be outdated. A Wave can definitely can be cartopped. At the events I've been to, there are several multi-Opti trailers, so I don't think that's critical anyway.



Well, you seem to have the mother of all tangents there. I was just trying to compare our most popular, least expensive boat to theirs. I'm not suggesting a Wave is remotely representative of how a Tornado sails, nor is an Opti representative of an A-Cup boat.

Read my message again. All I'm saying is that it probably wouldn't matter if we had a $1000 spinnaker-rigged cat. The Optis have an extremely impressive program, and that feeds the rest for monohulls.

Mike

I understand, but how did the 29-ers get there ?

In 2000 the 29-er was a totally new design without any class following.

Now it has passed many classes in numbers of participants and youths sailing it, according to RYA.

How is that the 29-er can achieve that were other boats like the Wave didn't. I think the Wave was launched around the same time and marketed by arguably a much larger company called Hobie cat.

I'm interested to find out why you think that is if the boat itself has nothing to do with it ?

Wouter

I said I don't want to guess, and I wish I knew the answer.

It seems too simple just to say it's because of the yacht clubs, but that might just be it. I don't honestly know how Optis are promoted to kids. It seems that they are exposed to them early (older siblings, mom/dad at the club for something else, etc.) and they see 50+ boats with kids sailing them, maybe that's enough incentive???

Beyond Optis, there are other boats to take a kid through high school, college and beyond. There are established programs, and I am unaware of ANY college that races cats. So between what they are seeing at the clubs, what they have to grow into (mom/dad influece?), what their friends are doing, etc. where is the incentive to sail a cat (other than to go fast).

So again, the boat doesn't matter. The Opti is a very, very slow tank (OK, more of a box). But, put a whole bunch of them on a starting line, and somehow, they're fun!?!?

Although, back in the 80s, there were routinely 200+ boats at weekend Hobie regattas in the US. Granted, those were primarily for adults. Obviously, we let the genie out of the bottle, and then it ran away. We're clearly not doing a very good job of bringing in new sailors. Lots of people are trying, it's just not working like it did in the "heyday." The factory says they're selling more Hobie sailing boats than ever, but the models they are currently selling just aren't making into the existing regatta program.

As for 29er vs. Wave, I don't know if this was company-wide, or if the dealers will admit to it, but I know for a fact that they go out of their way to promote Waves as being used for casual-sailing (non-racing) only. They typically don't even tell these sailors about the local Hobie fleets, which they view as only being for the "serious racers."

The class association didn't help this in the beginning, as Waves were not accepted as a racing class for many years. While there are now class rules published by IHCA, in the US, the vast majority of Wave racing is done under a separate umbrella. Rick and Mary can fill you in on more of that (if you haven't seen it here already)...

Mike

Maybe the boxiness and slowness of the Optimist is its selling point - it looks safe to the parents and it's unlikely to scare the kids off the water before they get hooked. And they get to do what all the other kids are doing.

As Wouter indicated, I think the 29er may be a better model for us to understand. In terms of target market, what is the appropriate modern cat design to compare it with? The SL16?

This is how Hobie presents the Wave in their web:

http://www.hobiecat.com/sailing/images/wave/gallery_02_lr.jpg

And this is how the 29er is presented at 29er.org:

http://mylatest.info/29er/images/argb2.jpg

Which one would you pick being a kid? They are just not compareable.

Here's my opinion:

The 49er is the "extreme" olimpic monohull. Kids like extreme sports. When a kid is sailing or leaving the Optimist, he is still too light and weak to sail the 49er. Convincing those kids that the 29er is the coolest available alternative is not difficult: after all, both look the same.

A similar situation once existed between the Optimist - 420 - 470.

The mulihull equivalent to the 29er would be a scaled down Tornado. The F16 or F14 could certainly be marketed as mini-Tornados but we would still miss the multihull equivalent to an Optimist.

I see it as a small one design cat powered by a simple rig, able to beat an Optimist in some key features:

-safety
-simplicity
-rigging time
-beauty
-price (if possible) and
-performance ( but not too fast, just enough to comfortably beat an Optimist. Parents prefer toys that keep kids within a manageable distance.)

An F12 could be the answer.

Lastly, both the Opti and the 29er are one designs. This gives a perception of "lower price and lower maintenance cost to remain competitive and get a reasonable resale value". We know that in the long run it isn't true, but the key for sales is "perception".

... whereas the RYA currently see the Hobie 16 as the youth cat. And the ISAF evidently have endorsed the SL16 (which whatever else you might think about it probably validates the view that the H16 is not the best youth choice).




Could the Hobie Dragoon fit the bill? How is this design faring in Europe? The RYA evidently use this for their Junior Catamaran Program, although they cite statistics for its (lack of) adoption to justify their stance on classes for the youth World's.

I actually started on a Scorpian and a keel boat that I do not remember, but got a MacGregor 14 with my cousin Scott at the age of 14. Still sail Lasers, a Hunter 27, a Tornado and my A.

I agree, an F-12 or the one design equivelant. I thought that Wouter was well along the way with a F-12 design.

[/quote]

.Quote: whereas the RYA currently see the Hobie 16 as the youth cat. And the ISAF evidently have endorsed the SL16 (which whatever else you might think about it probably validates the view that the H16 is not the best youth choice) end of Quote.

The ISAF World Youth Multihull listed for 2008 is the SL-15 (Sl-16), for 2009 it currently the Hobie 16 with spin.

Caleb Tarleton

PS have you all signed the petition?
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/CatamaranSubmission/index.html

I am well along the way of that design, indeed. And yes, the more I think about it the more I believe it needs to be a strict one-design setup. The F in the name F12 will just refer to the allowance to source your regulated parts of independent suppliers. I don't want to make is Single Manufacturer One Design. Basically the 29-er and opties are set up in the same way. I probably regulate the sail shape in detail as well. Not that I believe that is necessary or wise but because of "parent perception"

I believe the F12 is not the answer to all but it may well be the catamaran alternative to Opties and laser-1's.

I personally believe that not any single design is the answer, but that the right combo of organisation and a design that is well suited to gettting the organisation going is the key. Cheap but good looking, safe but performant and well behaved but simple in construction are the three key points the design should adhere to in my opinion. With that setup an small organisation can be started and on those selling points the boats can be marketed to the parents and the kids simultaniously. Most often the parent wishes diverge from the kids desires.

F12 in such a setup can only play the role of "get them young and hooked" and then as a feeder class into "real" cats like Nacra 500, F16/F18/A-cat, Tornado. That is the only viable route that I see an organisation like the RYA appreciate. I'm sorry to say I don't see the Wave, the Sl16 or the Hobie 16 is this line-up. SL16 will be replaced by the Nacra 500 because that is just so much better as a design. They are selling like hot cakes overhere, SL16 really isn't. The Hobie Dragoon may still have a role to play. I know this may upset several people but I think we must take a critical (and sometimes harsh) look at the situation.


My ideal path would indeed by like this

F12 : key target group of 12 years of age till 16, but possible to remain sailing till much older especially women. Daddy's car toppable play boat (as laser is now).

Nacra 500 : the doublehander boat from 16 years of age and daddies recreational cat. With spi it is better then the SL16.

F16 : As soon as a serious crew gets up to 120 kg combined, basically this means from 16 years onwards. Daddy's versatile recreational racer (both 1-up and 2-up mode). Feeder to both F18 and A-cat.

F18, A-cat : As the real training ground and racing classes for crews up from 140 kg (65 kg) ; 18 years and older. F18 as feeder class to Tornado. A-cat being the end stop for 1-up.

Tornado : Olympic slot.


This would be the equivalent of :

Opti/topper/Splash/Laser 4.7, laser radial and laser adult (F12 at 3000 Euro)
420, 470, 29-er (Nacra 500 = at 10.500 Euro)
29-er / RS600 / musto skiff (F16 = at 14.500 Euro)
49-er (F18 c.q A-cat/Tornado = at 18.000 and 25.000 Euro)

I think with such a line up we can really provide a comparable path to what the mono's have. The other halve of the story is then to organise such a setup into a organisation that is supported internationally by the cat sailors. With "try-out" programs and shared events where all 5 classes (except Tornado) are present. That will be the really hard part, but I think it can be done. Then the goal is to get all 5+tornado classes to refer to eachother in those specific roles and thus close the circle and present an unified concept and growth track to the outside world. This should not be too hard to do, won't cost anything.


With respect to the designs, those classes except for the F12 exist already and are sufficiently succesful to be assured continued existance. With the Nacra 500, one is even assured ample cheap second hand boats (BIG problem with the SL16). All the rest are self supportive. Nacra 500 is also significantly cheaper, by about 20%.

The F12 can be created, it will cost less then 4000 USD and perform as good as a Hobie 14 and the doublehanded 29-er. Setup time under 10 minutes and it'll weight under 65 kg. Ideal weight 60 kg (so women will love it), but with a range from 40 kg to 80 kg. 80 kg means two kids double handing will still have fun. Boat will carry alot more weight but not in a performance oriented way. It will be about 20% faster then the adult Laser-1 version and 30 % faster then the kiddies laser 4.7.

The intent of the F12 is to throw these boats around, maybe with some soda-pop sponsorship and spoil the young brats. Once you have gone fast at 12 years of age, you will never look at the slower dinghies in the same way again. As a result they will look at the next step up in cats (nacra 500/F16). Getting them at age 16 or 18 is too late as then they will have experienced their formative years in the dinghies classes and have made friends c.q. formed loyalties there.

That is my take on the situation.

I think we can make this work, it may not be perfect for everybody and I'm sure things could be made perfect here and there but this is what we as amateurs can MAKE to work with the minimal required effort and financial input. And these two considerations are of paramount importance. A perfect but unobtainable setup is as good as none. But we need to together, we ALL need to work together to make it happen and have a decent shot at succes.

I guess I'm asking for you guys feedback and possible involvement.

So what do you think.

Wouter

Lots of good thoughts Wouter. Two questions - you mention that the Dragoon may have a role to play, but it's not clear to me how it fits into your thinking about the F12. I don't know the boat at all but it's close to 12' so I'm just curious about why it wouldn't meet the requirements you have in mind for the entry class.

Secondly why do you think it is that the Nacra 500 is doing better than the SL16? Again I don't know either boat, but it's odd that Nacra are actually building/marketing the SL16 in the US. Maybe just hedging, based on the ISAF selection? Also you say the 500 will replace the SL16, but is that feasible if the ISAF don't change their stance?

Wouter

Im actually agreeing with all of your points... and nearly your choice of boats.

Then all we need is a cat friendly MNA,...... but how do we convince the parents to let their kids go down this route. Personally when you see the racing in Opti that is one tough market to crack.... suppose the other thought as to why they stay racing in monos is what do the friends do. If all your mates who you enjoyed racing opti with move into say laser 4.7 then the chances are you as a parent will go and get a 4.7 esp if they used to beat them.... then buy a radial rig full rig and for dear old dad a rooster 8.1, Big rig for a laser,all these rigs on 1 hull. Look at the money saved! And their gentlemen I think is the problem. Why spend the money on a cat when a laser will satisfy most of your sailing. As for the 29er think as cat sailors we should look at their marketing and LEARN how has a fleet that is less than 7 yo has got so popular.

It doesn't. F12 is oriented significantly differently then the Dragoon. The F12 is far more the equivalent of the laser-1, topper and splash while the dragoon is really much more the equivalent of the 29-er and 420.



Basically the Dragoon is a scaled down F18 to kids format, it comes with nearly all the drawbacks of such an involved boat. It is by no means as accessible as the optimist or laser dinghies (and spin-offs like the topper and splash). It is a full-on double hander with a spinnaker and requires dedicated crews that suit the boat.

I feel that no kids goes straight into the 29-er class, they start out sailing on easier and less complex boats. Only when the kid has proven his determination then the parents will consider a more expensive and involved boat. For these reasons I don't really consider the Dragoon as an entry boat for young sailors. I fear that for the above reasons kids will still start out in opties and splashes and laser and then be "brainwashed" into disliking cats and prefering 29-ers and 49-ers, because that is the way things are in mono world.

I actually like the Dragoon but it is a bit of neither. It is not entry enough and you grow out of it too soon. Also I'm sorry to say that it is made by Hobie. They have a talent for not picking the right colours and styling. I'm also not too sure if alot of crews are actually sailing that boat now, it doesn't seem to be really popular and its international presence is negligiable outside of France and the directly surrounding European states. As such is it much less well positioned then say the Nacra 5.0 and 500's.

In its race version it is not cheap. 2004 price was 7500 Euro's. That is cheaper then the 29-er. But no were near as inexpensive as the splash (3800 Euro). The splash is an smaller, more modern and lighter version of the laser. It features a more modern rig (more rectangular) and it is designed specifically for 12-16 year olds.

http://www.splash-boat.com/en/sales_info/dealers.htm

Again no kid at 12 gets into 29-ers straight away, they pass through the entry class like the splash first which feed into the 29er.

Another thing to consider is that the Splash organisation (and it is an large and ISAF recognized class) offers boats to active 12 years old sailors, for almost no fee at all. They can probably do that because the boats are so inexpensive and hardly anything can break because there aren't sensitive items like spinnakers on them. We can never do that with Dragoon as they are too expensive and use to much components like ratchet blocks and spinnakers. But the F12 is suited to such setups. Also the splash weights 75 kg (hull = 52 kg) and the mast is collapsable, that means it is truly car toppable and easily stored. The Dragoon isn't.

Maybe the F12 can be the feeder into the dragoon.

I still wrote that it may have a role to play.




Basically the Nacra 500 is faster, cheaper and has a much higher international presence, mostly because of its very similar predessor Nacra 5.0. In ALL other aspects the two boats are the same. Why go through the trouble of establishing a whole new class when you have such an alternative.

I haven't seen the Sl16's myself but comments by others seem to suggest that the finishing is not its strongest point. I have seen the Nacra 500's (there are already 5 of them at my club alone) and the finishing of those is top notch.

Forgive me for saying so but SL16 appears to be French and certainly Dutch sailors are not attracted to it. I now the Spanish are not embracing it and statements from F16 sailors in Asia suggest it is not accepted there. And we can continue this list with Australia, USA and the like while the Nacra 5.0 and 500 are getting interest its seems. At my club the nacra 500's are quickly gethering. The buyers prefer these.

Maybe also because the SL16 is advertised to much as a youth boat. In the end its is daddy who buys the boat because he wants to sail as well. The SL16 concept is just not right in this respect.

There can well be other reason I not know about, I'm sure there are, but SL16 is not happening from what I can tell.




I regret saying it but I think that I'm convinced that it is better to ignore ISAF as much as you can. They don't drive stuff or start new things, the are followers. If some group of enthousiasts make a particular class into a succes then they are right on top of it to make it ISAF recognized, but they won't do much on their own initiative. It has all the outward signs of a clocked up bureaucracy. Not a good place to start new initiatives or change the status-quo. Look at how the youth calender is setup now ; 2008 = youth worlds on SL16 but in 2009 it is on Hobie 16's again ! What a BS is that ? No-one is going to buy the SL16 at 14.000 for one year. This way the association with ISAF and its machination is rather the kiss of death.

In line with this reasonign I don't think it make much difference at all what ISAF prefers. The won't make it happen themselves, they won't help out in a meaningful way and they just wait for other people to do the work for them. If the Nacra 500 is better at that then they will just switch over in say 5 to 10 years time.

Wouter

Indeed so stuart,

We have nothing as cats now and the mono have everything lined up and sorted out. It will be an uphill struggle for sure, but not without opportunities.

I cna make a long post about this with idea's but maybe it is more effective to just point out that a similar scene was present when the F16's were launched. We had the Hobie 16's, the F18's and the A-cats, what more does a cat sailor want ? Still, we managed to find unique selling points and made the class grow. Sure it is difficult at first, but it can be done if you are smart about how you approach the problem both technically and in the way of branding/marketing.

Same can be said for the 29er. We already had the 420's right?

With respect to the laser, the different rig sizes are needed because only a 80 kg person can hold down the full rig in any significant wind, due to is very narrow width. The F12 is much wider and even light kids will be able to prevent the 7 sq. mtr. rig from capsizing. But even then, we can also have different size rigs on the F12 is we want to (but I don't think it to be necessary)

Wouter

Wouter, your "ideal path" is 6 YEARS too late. In the US, kids can start on Optis at age 6 (and I can't find a rule that says they can't start earlier):

http://www.usoda.org/index.cfm?id=153082&fuseaction=browse&pageid=107

And I really don't know why anyone wants to compete with the 29er. I've been to youth regattas with hundreds of boats and no 29ers. It's just not a big class here. RYA alluded to that as well in their submission.

A kid can sail an Opti from age 6 to 16. Most stop sooner because they get too big (or bored). The next boat up is either a Laser (as mentioned above, several rigging options) for singlehanders, or a Club 420 for doublehanders.

The Laser can be sailed into retirement. The Club 420 can be sailed in high school and college programs. They both have huge fleets.

Having said all of that, I maintain that it's not about the boats. These classes are the accepted boats at most yacht clubs, the infrastucture, convenience, and sheer numbers of which is quite formidable.

EDIT: More to the point of why the boat doesn't matter: there have been a ton of new boats introduced that have flopped (Escape comes to mind). Look at the number of models on Vanguard's website. The "establishment" of the clubs is the real strength. And, say what you want about Hobie 16s, they are still far and away the most popular racing catamaran in the world.

Mike

Mike, are you saying we should aim for kids to start their sailing experience in cats? I'm not sure that's realistic. I think parents and kids are probably happier starting in something slow and stable. An entry level cat can be a step up once kids are comfortable on the water and wanting to experience a little more speed.

I do agree with you about the important role of the organizational infrastructure, not to mention committed volunteers. But the suitability of the boat has to play some kind of role. Otherwise the new youth classes that have developed in the last 10 years would never have happened.

One other thing that I don't think has been raised - should an entry level cat be a single hander or double? Seems that a lot of under-16 monohull sailing is done solo.

Yes Mike, there are indeed alot of obstacles that need to be taken. Still, that doesn't mean we shouldn't try or give up all hope for succes.

Wouter

I say.

Single hander, but with ability to doublehand it through the initial stages, hopefully with another kid and possibly with parent.

Wouter

Sorry if it sounds like I'm in a panic, I'm not. Unfortunately, it's just not as easy as designing a new boat.

Mike

Wouldnt a doublehander be cheaper? (Since you only need half the boats).

What is probably most important is at what stage do young sailors decide they want to move on to a more high-performance craft? (Dragoon/29er etc).

Maybe we should be having this conversation on a 29er forum and ask them what influenced their decision process?

In that case I think you have missed the key points.

We are actually arguing that a clear track of growth needs to be formed in the catsailing scene, much like the opti, Splash/Topper, laser, 29-er, 49-er. That is what national sailing associations appear to want and find lacking in cats.

This means we first need to find a listing of boat types to use as building blocks for such a clear growth track. This is relatively easy.

Then the critical part comes and that is organising all these classes into a unit that supports the roles of the others in this track and stimulates growing through the ranks. This then needs to be expanded with special youth programs, hopefully with sponsorships, and when we are done we can reapproach our national sailing organisations and provide them with a fully devellopped track for cat sailing. That is what they need to make our case on the international level. At least they say so. But we even need to provide them with this even if they are just shoving us off. Only then can we corner them into a position where they are without excuses. Right now we are too easy baited and discarded. It doesn't even take much effort to talk our protests down like the RYA did recently. We have no position of power or influence and that needs to change.

But we have to start at the bottom and that means selecting the boats that will become part of this track and possibly create a new design if a sufficiently large gap is discovered. Without a proper sequence of "steps-up" ; all other organisational efforts will be largely useless. Mostly because the National sailing associations will in the end just refer to the total lack of true linkage to the Olympic Tornado and discard all efforts in one major sweep or the arm. And honestly, they will not be very wrong in doing so either.

Wouter

Tony,

Would you be so kind to execute your own proposal ?

It would indeed provide some valuable information.

Wouter

There are so many cat designs already on the market already, I'm just not seeing another design as the answer. And, I don't know how many ways to say this, the 29er is not our primary problem.

Wouter, the last thing I have time for is to get into an argument with you, but you completely contradicted yourself and bolster my case in the message above. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

First, you say I'm missing the point because I said designing the boat(s) isn't the important part.

Then, you say "Then the critical part comes" and admit it's not as easy as just designing the boat, that the infrastructure has to be built, sold to the MNAs, etc. This is what I've been saying the whole time: the infrastructure is where they are killing us, not the boat design.

And to MarkMT's question, I don't think it's unrealistic, from a technical point of view, to have kids start on cats. Cats are inherently MORE stable than monohulls, and Optis flip all the time. The design problem is, most (all?) cats are designed with too much sail area for a 6-year old to handle. If you don't start them on cats, why would they switch later?

I still say that even if we had really cheap, easy to sail cat, we'd get nowhere against the mono programs, without a massive paradigm shift. If we can get high schools and colleges to have cat racing, that might be a start.

I am extremely interested in this because I have a 10-month old, and I'm trying to figure out where this is ultimately heading. I'd love him to be racing cats at 6 years old (as a skipper). The only problem is, there's nothing less technical than a Hobie 16 racing in any sufficient numbers, and those are raced by adults or older teens.

So, I may have to buy an Opti...

Mike

Talking about contradicting oneself





But seriously, you are looking for this boat http://www.hobie-cat.net/site_gb/?produits,hobie_catsy

I knew that would come up... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

EDIT: Wait, you did it again!!!!! I said: "There are so many cat designs already on the market already, I'm just not seeing another design as the answer." You took issue with that, then you point to the design that proves my point:

"But seriously, you are looking for this boat http://www.hobie-cat.net/site_gb/?produits,hobie_catsy"

That is a nice boat that might do the trick. It would be best with the small main and no jib. It's still a bit bigger and more powerful than the Opti, but close enough. Now, how do we get that into the yacht clubs and cats into colleges?

Mike

Not many 6 year olds in colleges. So the cat for the colleges needs to be a different type. What do you think is the best cat design for that ?

What do you think is the best approach to get that design accepted in colleges ?





What is the underlaying principle you are after here. Do you feel that the choice in sailing career is most dominantly made at 6 years or there abouts ? That is to say in comparison to 12 years of age ?

Pardon me, but what do you mean exactly by "might do the trick" how do you think can the chances for success be increased, would a smaller platform do it ?

Wouter

I'm just giving you a hard time... a smaller platform might help, but then you'll tell me we need to worry about design again (and you may be right at the 6-year old level).

I didn't say put the Catsy in colleges, I think you may have read that sentence too quickly.

I haven't changed or hidden any "underlying" principle throughout these posts. I'm simply pointing out that there are many strengths in the mono model.

Obviously, not everyone sails to go to the Olympics or to race at college. But, the kids need something to do, and the parents want to be on the water (or at the club, or whatever). When there are races with 90 boats, it's an easy decision. Also, they are small, slow and perceived to be safe (they are actually promoted as "self-righting").

If we had a small enough boat that a 6-year old could sail (preferably a Hobie), I could probably get myself and a few other new Hobie parents to buy one and start a racing program. The problem is, we'd be outside the mainstream sailing organization, so our numbers would be destined to be limited. Not to mention, we are separated by lots of hours (like 5 or 6) of driving. Getting to 90 kid boats within a few hours drive would be a steep hill to climb, especially since we don't see 50 adult boats at most regattas anymore.

Mike

The Chesapeake Bay region... Not to mention the east coast does not have a 29ner program at all. Only the west coast seems to have any 29ner activity. Also, Brad Dellenbaugh's daughter is a great 29ner sailor so... BINGO....the USA has a program.

(I think New Jersey may have 4 boats that arrived last year.)

The east coast Yacht clubs have a program that goes like this
Single handed sailor... opti.... laser radial... laser ... College laser

the Double handed team.... two opti's... 420... College 420

So... the feeder to a performance boat will be the 420. Kids's trapeze in breeze.... Now... move them up to apparant wind sailing and Pick...
It could be the 29ner... or a catamaran.

On the east coast... NEITHER program has much of a chance.
No space... and most importantly... Not enough support from the parents.
With the catamaran... the double wammy is that NO College scholarship is available to you if you are a cat sailor. (no way to compare your skills to the other kids).

Parents won't support a performance boat UNLESS the colleges that have sailing programs make it clear they are recruiting those kids.... If it won't get you into the college(read IVY League) it won't be worth the parental investment of time and money.

Is this a REAL problem for the MNA's like US Sailing...
I don't really think so.

The elite Tornado sailors will tell you... Eh... at this age... it doesn't matter what you sail.. cat or performance dinghy... just so long you are dialed into the apparant wind sailing. Since that doesn't happen in the USA... Its a punt anyway. BUT... College is the opportunity to get lots of reasonable coaching and have your god given talent mature on those slow boats. The coaching which focus's a lot on tactics etc,... may not be THAT valuable in the end ... but it can't hurt... and most importantly... you mature in all ways.... fill out your body, develop the mental toughness for competing, etc etc. If you have talent... you will be noticed.

So. My point is... the programatic critique is true AND.... it is irrelevant. Olympic talent is developed after college by serious support and coaching.

IMO... the solution that is achievable is to CROSS TRAIN the kids before they get to college. Get them a racing experience on a catamaran, Hobie 16 or better. ... When THEY get to choose what they want to do with their time... They will come back to cats if we have a competitive and fun racing program for them to rejoin when they are able.

If they have the talent, funding and desire they will ALSO find their way to the Olympic Catamaran.

Now... the if the problem becomes political in that we must have this egalitarian and broad program of growing cat sailors... we indeed have an insurmountable problem.

My two cents worth!

I have to agree with a lot of that, Mark.

It would be nice if we could have a cat program for the youth, but may only be critical for showing a clear path of development leading into an Olympic class. I don't think that hoping we get people to crossover through osmosis is a long-term plan for success.

I'll be more than happy to buy Hunter an Opti and let him get his feet wet with a huge fleet, and one of these Catsy things (if we can get them and start a racing fleet) or a Wave to get his feet wet with cat racing.

With my luck, he'll want to play golf anyway...

Mike

Guys you are not going to bump people from the Opti even though the Open Bic is catching the Opti class by surprised with it's popularity. Still many of these classes have been around for a long time and people are perfectly happy with them so why change, what so they can sail a new multihull at a higher price tag. Opti’s or like dinghies are easy to transport and easy to find used, and many many sailing programs have them in their programs. You can’t create a little cat for the price of an opti, oops I guess there is the Hobie Bravo. Kids learn via the Opti, Sabot, El Toro, and now maybe the Open Bic, then they go to the 29er (not as big a class as some report), 420, then to the 49er. Or from the multihull perspective go from the Opti or Open Bic, and then go to the H16 and stay there like so many do. Sorry guys the H16 worlds are awesome and well attended with the youth division, women’s, masters, open class. Heck the H16 class does not even need the Olympics to put on a great world event and has great attendance. The H16 worlds has been going on now for over 30 years. As I have always told people many multihull sailors keep shooting themselves in the foot with their Hobie 16 bashing, etc. One thing that has made Opti’s and like dinghies popular is how the programs are ran, that is like a soccer program for kids. Parents can come and drop their kids off and the kids have a great time with a lot of other kids. So if you can do this with multihulls then you have a winning program, actually we already have a winning program by utilizing the opti programs and then introducing them to the H16. For me its getting the kids sailing via an Opti program and then plug them into the Hobie Class Assoc. That is what I am doing and it works.

And honestly where is the Olympics headed? No sailing in the Olympics is where. It’s only a matter of time before it happens due to cost, etc.

Now THAT's what I want to hear! Where are you doing this, and how are you successfully "pulling" kids away from the 420s and Lasers?

Mike

What is the typical change-over age?

According to the ISAF, the H16 is considered unsuitable for mixed crews.

http://www.ifds.org/technical/YouthMultiEval_05Com.pdf (page 3)

That's only for youth teams, and I would have to agree with them. It's tough to make the youth minimum weight with a mixed or all female team. In the 2007 H16 Youth NAs, my daughter (14 years old) sailed with a 16 year old female skipper and they had to carry the maximum of 50 lbs of dead weight to make minimum weight. They were totally overpowered the first day when it was blowing 15+ kts.

Can we try to avoid the Hobie 16 tar pit this time.

It has been discarded by several National sailing associations as being insufficiently suitable. Even ISAF itself is actively trying to replace it by the SL16.

For youth sailing as defined by the national associations its days are numbered and we all agree to some extend that it doesn't pass the Pepsi test with todays youngsters and teenagers.

The Hobie 16 youth class is a different entity in its own right and sadly unrelated to anything the national organisations find interesting. Without these being involved the colleges will never offer scholarships as there is no high profile ending (return of investment) for their efforts. It is common knolegde that companies will fund F18 and Tornado campaigns (after much convincing) but not any Hobie 16 teams.

The Hobie 16 youth class is fully geared towards keeping the sailors in the Hobie 16 class. This is their right but also contradictionary to growing and supporting the larger cat sailing scene or national sailing association programs for cats. As such it will not keep any multihull in the Olympic program and it will only garantee that the larger cat scene is starved of fresh blood as the H16 class will most definately try to corner it. I hate the say it but I've not found the Hobie 16 class to be much of a team player. Sorry.

Wouter

Agree,this is the right approach. At Sail Sand Point in Seattle, see www.sailsandpoint.org, this is what we are doing. We now have five Waves and six Hobie 16's in our program. In addition, we have a strong cadre of Hobie Cat Volunteers that teach Hobie 101, 102, and help train youth teams for the US SAILING Youth Multihull Champ. Three teams were trained last year, and attended the 2007 Event.

The number of H-16 students, both youth and adults is growing each year. The Waves have participated in three of our Hobie points regattas this year, with youths on board. The number of youths now racing multihulls both as skipper and crew is increasing due to these programs.

Caleb

Sorry to disagree Wouter, but our youth teams for the US SAILING Youth Championship were trained on both the Hobie 16 and the Tiger. The Tiger was used for the spin training. The Hobie 16 youth are now also sailing on the Tigers, mostly as crew, but and will eventually be skippers on Tigers and/or FX-1's. What better way to advance to the F-18 classes and hopefully to the Olympic Multihull class, no matter what it may be. In the Northwest, we do have a good record of Olympic sailing athletes. Why not add a Multihull sailor to this group?

Caleb Tarleton

I love it . . Wout says, "Let's avoid the Hobie 16 tar-pit" and then jumps in with both feet!

You are right, so let me rephrase that.


Let's avoid the Hobie 16 tar-pit.

Lets get back to the topic and that is how to adress the issues as given by RYA for not supporting cat classes; knowing what we know about the efforts already made by the UK (H16, SL16 and Dragoon) youth squads. And then generalize this analysis to cover the whole world.

Wouter

Yes..

MNA like the Brits and USA conclude that we don't have a program. It's too late and cats should be dropped!


So, we can argue that we do have a prgram and describe it once again for them.


Or say the hell with it.

Or, Build the program that they want...
This is the tough one. space, time, money, KIDS, JRS, College sailors , and sailors in the olympic pipeline are not there in the USA... Now the brits are saying the same thing and I thought they had a pretty good program.

So what now!

What Matt said, times 1000... Wouter, you'd do us all a huge favor by deleting that entire post. What you proclaim as fact are points that can be argued (with facts that point to the contrary) forever. And, none of that helps the discussion on this thread.

Anyway, Mark is spot on. We have a tough one to tackle, and while nothing is impossible, this is as close as one could imagine.

The good news is, we're all here actively discussing this.

Mike

Mark,
very good point.

The dutch have 500-700 at RoundTexel annually
The French have 300-400 at the various Long distance 'Raides'(France)annually

I expect these guys have lessons for us both! The French easily have the best strength and depth in their cat fleets, especially in Tornado, the Germans are very strong too.

UK RYA FORUM: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3418&PN=1

UK petition now at 1768 names with lots of top US names, pls add yours, its a fight we must all take up if we truly believe in our sport.
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/CatamaranSubmission/signatures.html

Sail fast, the only way, CATAMARAN!
Regards JR

Wouter,

I like the thought process here. I agree with others that opti sailing begind much earlier. I began on Scorpions, then Lasers, then at 14 my first cat. I think that there does need to be some road to go from a opti that would entice youths to switch to multihulls. I like the F12 and wonder if this can be setup to be a safe, easy to rig boat, that also is easy to right.

As avid catsailors, we need to develop and promote a path to the world of multihulls to our youth programs. We also need to get involved at a yatch club/youth program level and be directly involved with the programs. I have helped more than a few young sailors weave their way through to cats, and am using my a-class to do that right now with 2 teenagers who are sailing 420's and lasers. All I can do is get them out on it and get them excited about sailing cats. I use my classic rig Tornado for the same thing.

Again, the essential point is to develop a path. A path that can be supported at a club level and to get involved with it. It is also essential to get companies like Vanguard behind the production and development of the boats. Vanguard has a great track record with development boats as well as classes like the Laser & 420. I still regularly sail my laser. Steve Clark who is an avid cat sailor, might be approachable with the right boat/concept. I do not know him, but I would approach him if I believed in the class,concept and structure.

Back on topic, having a catamaran in the Olympics is extremely important. I can't speak for other countries but here in the UK the Olympics generates a huge amount of publicity. When the sailors do well, which the UK sailors do (except in the cats <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />) they become media stars.

At no other time is dinghy sailing found on mainstream television or on the front page of national newspapers. Our sailors were thrust into the public limelight after the last Olympics.

Like it or not there is no other event that gives the general public access to sailing like the Olympics, for that reason we need the Tornado to be included so please sign the petition.

Gareth

Posted by TeamVmg on Yatchs & Yatching Blog
http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3418&PN=1&TPN=5
Interesting stuf on this topic by a former top man in ISAF;

Paul Henderson: Sailing and the 2012 Olympics

To Fellow Buttheads:
I trust you will take the following biased opinion as being from a recently excommunicated "Pope of Sailing" and also a Member of the IOC. The IOC, in their wisdom, set the maximums for the 2012 London Games at 28 sports, 300 events, and 10,500 athletes. Here is what that means for sailing:

1) On sailing being kicked out of the Olympics:
Each sport is voted on by the 120 Members of the IOC, and it takes 50% +1 to remain Olympic. For the vote on events to be held at the London 2012 games, sailing received over 70% support. Of the sports that were dropped for 2012, Baseball got 35% and Softball 50% (missing the +1). Rugby 7's and Squash were voted on to replace the two deleted sports. However, they got only approx. 35% of the vote so were not admitted. The result is that there will be only 26 sports for London and a slot for 500 more athletes and two missing events. Several years ago a tabloid polled 100 of the movers and shakers of the Olympics who were asked the question: “What sports should remain in the Olympics?” Amongst these people, sailing ranked 8th, tying with Soccer out of the 33 sports, which included the "wanabees". By the way, Sailing is the sport the now IOC President started in as he rose up the IOC ladder. Long story short, sailing looks solid.

2) On sailing being promoted on TV during the Olympics:
Of the 28 sports, 14 get minimal TV. Sailing is one of them. Nothing sailing does will ever change this. Sailing is a participatory sport. However, Sailing was the number 5 sport in Olympic hits on the Internet. That is our medium and to prostitute the integrity of the sport for some "pie-in-the-sky" TV dream is ridiculous.

3) On sailing needing more countries competing in the Olympics:
Sailing gets close to 60 nations, which places it in the top half of the 28 sports. Sailing has had over 20 countries win medals in the last several Olympics, which is excellent, and shows how broad-based our sport is. This statement has many facets, as sailors must be sent by their National Olympic Committee (NOC). The Sailing authority has little power, including US Sailing Assn (USSA) and the Canadian Yachting Assn (CYA). Many countries have much more restrictive policies than the ISAF standard imposed by the IOC. While USA, by an act of congress, must send any athlete who qualifies (after years of fighting Canada also), many European countries will not send a competitor unless they are ranked in the top 8 countries. Even if you have 40 countries allowed in the Laser, it does not matter to the Europeans. If you are not in the top 8, you’re not going. How many countries can you fit into the top 8?

The emerging countries have difficulty qualifying at major regattas, so ISAF fills with these countries. I personally took on this responsibility to take the flak. The truth is that if a sailor could get their NOC to send them, then we could find a slot in the Laser and Boards. In the other classes, possibly only one competitor in each class was ever discarded. At 400 sailors and 11 classes, it was a minor inconvenience.

4) The 2012 Games: 10 Events, 380 sailors and more Women:
ISAF received the 11th event for 2000, which put the Star back in with the agreement that the event would be used in Athens 2004 for the Women's Keelboat. ISAF agreed that we would go back to 10 for London 2012. There is really no need, but the IOC is holding ISAF to the agreement (too bad for the UK - the premier sailing nation). Dropping 1 class and going down from 400 to 380 really means each remaining class gets more, as each of the now 11 events has each more than the 20 sailors deleted. In Savannah 1996, the women were at 19%. The IOC demands each sport be over 30%. In Athens 2004, sailing had over 35% women. Sailing is hitting this target, and any class changes will not be touching this requirement.

Having pontificated on the above, lets get to my bias on the classes. Sailors sail boats and that should be the criteria, not the equipment (classes). People and the sport should be the focus. ISAF does not pick classes per se. The classes are only the equipment used in a specific event. Sailing, like most sports, dictates the size and shape of the athlete done by the equipment selected. Sailing must pick the classes that allow sailors of all size and gender to compete. Singlehanded sailing is very restrictive on the size of the sailor as it dictates a narrow band of physique. I am also accused of being adamant that the sport is "Sailing" not "Air Rowing" (as the boardsailors do). Justifiably so! Therefore I would consider the following for the 10 classes:

1) There must be 4 classes where the women can compete: Single, Double, Keel, Mixed Doubles.
2) The Finn, Star, Women's Keelboat must remain so as to have classes which are geared to larger body shapes.
3) Cats and Skiffs should be sailed as Kinetics is of minimal help. Sailing is the sport! I would have a skiff for men and another for the women. I would also have two Cats - one high performance and the other mixed doubles.
4) The Laser is unchallenged for men and women.

If there are any slots left then let others, and they will, decide. There is another issue that must not be forgotten. Sailing is one of the Summer Sports, which is accessible to the disabled in the Paralympics. It is essential the keelboats remain so the facilities are in place for these wonderful, challenged sailors.

Paul Henderson
Ex Everything Else

RYA Youth and Olympic Catamaran Policy.





Last Friday I had a meeting with Brian Phipps and Rob White who made me aware of the depth of feeling in some quarters over the RYA policies in this area.

I have also been briefed by John Derbyshire the Racing Manager on the reasoning of the RYA Youth Steering Group regarding these submissions.

Clearly the RYA has not communicated its views sufficiently well in the areas of;



Youth cat race training

RYA submission on youth cat racing at the ISAF youth worlds.

Current RYA thinking on the Olympic classes for 2012.



…we will endeavour to do so in the next week or two.



I have suggested that John Derbyshire and Chris Atkins [the chairman of the RYA Racing Committee] meet with Brian and Rob so that both parties can explain their views. Following the meeting we will publish a paper that sets out our stance so that at least everyone is aware of the facts.



No RYA member’s money or club affiliation fees are spent on our Youth and Olympic programmes; it is all funded by the Lottery. We manage this funding in pursuit of medals in the relevant classes. There will be one less Olympic class in 2012.



I have coached and been involved with cats for over 30 years I even own one! …. There is no institutional anti-cat bias in the Association, but sometimes hard decisions have to be taken based on facts and not sentiment.



Rod Carr



RYA CEO.



22nd September 2007.

Another post from across the pond. Here is what some of them are saying about our efforts with our fight.


We can talk about this untill we are blue in the face , but this wont affect the RYA and its actions , we need to do something now before we run out of time to have any effect atall.
The American cat sailors had exactly the same problem when their organising body ANNOUNCED that they were submitting to remove cat sailing from the Olympics , our fellow cat sailors across the pond had the advantage in that their organisation made their intentions public and in time to do something about it .

USA cat sailors made the organising body change their submission to actually supporting future cat racing .

We need to learn from their experience and DO SOMETHING QUICKLY before its to late for us , time is not on our side due to the underhand fashion in which the RYA has gone about this .

I believe the US cat sailors started with 1 petition on line to which they could all agree to sign , with which they could show the level of dissaproval , not sure what else they did , but it worked .

With an online petition we can get all our fellow cat sailors and clubs to add their names to and will give us something to target our dissaproval with. For every cat sailor that writes in a forum there must be 100 that agree but wont speak out , but I bet they can be persuaded to sign a petition. Nor do they have to be specific cat sailors , just sailors with an interest in competition , sailing developement and overall fairness.

This reply is specifically intended to only answer some questions asked about the F12. It is not intented to move the discussion on the youth path and national associations towards the F12 in anyway. Depending on the outcomes of the larger discussion the F12 may or not be part of the "youth cat track".

Windswept.


>>I like the F12 and wonder if this can be setup to be a safe, easy to rig boat, that also is easy
>>to right.

As things stand now, the answer is "yes" on all above points. And in some cases even extremely so.


>>A path that can be supported at a club level and to get involved with it. It is also essential
>>to get companies like Vanguard behind the production and development of the boats.

I'm aiming for both with the F12. Mostly I want these boats to be cheap and light so they can easily be stacked or put on their sides to cut down on used Club spaces. Cheapness means that money involved in having the boats and the risk of damage is severly limited. Even the sails can be inexpensively home made by an amateur, even be developped by an amateur. I'm designing towards that ability specifically as to reduce the money footprint. Lots of the used concepts comes from landyachting experience, here lots of amateurs are succesful in building their own competitive rigs.

Additionally, I'm trying to maximize the potential profit margin under series production. Many of the F12 components become very inexpensive when massed into large single orders. Sail design is simple enough to be shipped off to Hong Kong (as the 20-ers are doing). I'm hoping this will make it very attractive for these companies to do the F12.

I'm adamently opposed to a Single Manufacturer setup though. F12 will be a One-Design class but then in the way the Tornado is.


>>Steve Clark who is an avid cat sailor, might be approachable with the right boat/concept. I do
>>not know him, but I would approach him if I believed in the class,concept and structure.

Such design talent will never go a miss. Still at this time, most of the designing is linked to getting the design just right for its expected marketing and usage. This is relatively unrelated to actual technical and optimal performance considerations.

Basically I'm trying to design the F12 as an integrated sailboat/marketing/production package.

I feel most other classes that have been launched fail on striking the right balance between these points.

Wouter

... And another tangent, thanks Wouter... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Back on topic, and I don't know why I didn't think of this sooner, but we have no cats in the Junior Olympic program, maybe that's something to aim for?

I helped run a junior regatta this summer, which was part of the Junior Olympic Festival program (events happen around the country). There were four racing circles: two for Optis, one for Lasers (4.7 and Radial) and my circle for Club 420s. I was told that the Club 420 is considered the "elite" class. Now, how did THAT happen???

Also, it can NOT be a good thing that every year, the US SAILING Youth Championships excludes cats, we have to have a separate US SAILING Youth Championship for cats. Who does this make any sense to???

Mike

NOT TRUE (any more)
The US Sailing Youth Championship will be held along with the others this year (2008). Unfortunatly, it's in January!
That's just too damn cold up here in the Northwest to get the kids any time on boats.

I hope you're right, but what event are you talking about???

This is the event being promoted by US SAILING:

http://ussailing.org/championships/youth/youthchamp/

Mike

This is the information I was given;

The tentative data on the Youth Multihull Champ
is
> back at Alamitos Bay Yacht Club, Jan 19-21, 2008 on the SL-16. This is
also
> the ISAF Youth World Qualifier. The Lasers, Laser Radials, 29er, RS-X
> boards will be held at the same event.

I'd much rather see it in San Fransisco in July.

It looks like I've got my events confused. You may be right about the separation.

Well, as it turns out, there are multiple Youth championships listed on the US SAILING website, just like for adults: http://www.ussailing.org/Championships/ So, I guess to answer my own question, this makes sense to US SAILING... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

In all reality, it seems the ISAF Youth qualifier is a separate event than the USSA "Youth Championships" event.

Thanks for pointing this out, this is fabulous news and we need to make this continue.

Mike

Don't miss the point.... the MNA's are looking for much more programatic effort...

A single event does not make a program !

Since I don't think we can ever measure in with what they want... I believe we must solve the problem with novel solutions.

things like a yacht club taking on the role of being a regional center for junior catamaran racing with charter boats for for junior teams that compete on a monthly basis. Teams would travel several hours for the events BECAUSE it was part of a program leading to elite sailing.

Any other novel ideas?

I see a possible convergence here :

for mono's

opti => laser (4.7/radial) => 420

for cats

opti => F12 => nacra 500


The nacra and 420 share the same make-up of ideal crew weight. I intend to have the F12 do the same with respect to the laser (4.7/radial). And it makes sense to have both tracks make use of the opti for kids in the range 6-12.

The follow up for both mono's and cat to this junoir track will be obvious.

Do you think we butt-in into the junior programs this way ?

Anybody know what the 420's go for ?

Wouter

Mark, you're saying EXACTLY what I meant. I in no way, shape or form would think that just having the cats in one event would change anything. I was just pointing out that part of the path to Olympics in the US includes Junior Olympics, and we are missing the boat with no cats in the program.

Wouter, google is your friend: http://www.theboathouse.biz/boat_vanguard_price_list.asp

If we had the mother of all programs, fully sponsored cats at locations all over the country, that would be a ton of work to put together for a few people. But, it's a good place to start. The tough parts would be finding the sponsor, then finding the kids willing to sail in the class that only has 10 boats at the regatta.

EDIT: Here's the novel idea (just came to me...): The 10-boat program just might work if we can make it more "elite" than the existing mono paths. We can tie it into the mono world, rather than trying to replace it, which won't work with just 10 boats per location. The magic trick is, make a regatta (preferably a series of regattas) that requires qualification from other classes (cats or monos, doesn't matter, just need some rules). Make the prize for winning the regatta (or series) a college scholarship. This might be one of those "it's too obvious" ideas, but certainly could work, may entice sponsors and parents to get excited, etc. I am not aware of any dinghy events that currently offer scholarships, but if they exist, I have full confidence that someone here will point them out for me... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mike

Guys, you know about this - http://www.nayma.org/ ?

I had forgotten about the SL16 traveling roadshow. Jim Young mentioned it at CRAW a few months back. Great idea if it works.

ah... the USA JO's.

How is your ulcer going!!!! In my region... the JO's rotate through the YC with Junior programs. ...Many want to have done their service before the JO's get to their club... Its a 48 hour headache with all of the kids running around. The limitation to including cats is first and foremost space... both on the club grounds... and on the water. Next... its' kids and boats who want to do the event. Finally, its not like kids are beating down the door for junior only regattas either.

We run a junior only Hobie 16 regatta at MRYC for the past two years. Best we have been able to do is 3 boats .... I tried to lend boats to CBYRA 420 and laser sailors. ( I solved the liablity issue once and still not much success) (Hobie 16's cause that is the cat that I can get).. No luck.... you can't even give a boat away.... WHY... because the schedule is SO Packed within a 2 month summer window and the top sailors that you want are heading north to Buzzards or nationals, etc etc. Also... the junior sailing directors have lots of influence over kids.... they are not getting the atta boys from parents if their kids move off the track and race a catamaran. They are an unexpected road block... in their Sail instructors world... a parallel catamaran program for their top sailors is a PIA and since their is no college level program, it must be a waste of time in their view.

So... My take is... we need to find a spot in the schedule... that has a lot of kids racing and show them the flag.... then we need this elite program where the good kids to take a cracK at racing a H16.... THEN the peice that I could not see how to make happen .... a development path while they are in college.... Finally, If you are still in the game and good enough.... you hit the Olympic development program. (of course... in the win now mentality of US Sailing Olympic.... the bucks go to this last step... I understand the limits... but... It means that local volunteers will have to make the previous levels of the ladder work. I think the F12 project is spot on..

The time to get the kids is at the 420 level.... they trapeeze and are not as fragile. A small cat is right there. BUT... It is going to have to be progrm driven.

Finally, the reality is... What 5 cats can you keep together ... At the regional level... It will be what you can get your hands on and keep going for a couple of years. SL16's would be ideal for 14 years old and up... BUT .... Hobie 16's no chutes is A GREAT alternative to nothing.

Still banging my head against the wall... one day I will break something...

Mark

No ulcer (yet)... Art's been at this forever and hasn't completely cracked the nut either, although he's way ahead of us (he has put fleets of boats together).

Well, like I said, if the carrot is a college scholarship, that MIGHT help, but it's like anything else. If we show up with a bunch of boats, we're basically stealing away talent, not adding numbers to the game. One could argue that this is what got non-Hobies in trouble at Hobie regattas... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

We really need to start kids on cats, not pull mono sailors away. That's a sure way to make sure we don't get invited.

In reference to your other points, if we are going to have a "program" that is taken seriously to support the Olympic multihull (the whole point of this thread, right?), then cats HAVE to be in the JO program.

Up here, there are quite a few kid-only regattas. There are tons of parent and coach boats to keep the adults busy. When youth and adult events are mixed, it's somewhat chaotic, and I don't think the kids benefit.

And, our JO regatta was 72 hours of kid control... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mike

We really need to start kids on cats, not pull mono sailors away. That's a sure way to make sure we don't get invited.


You think that this is an issue?.... I don't see kids having the same passion for the "class"... eg I am a 420 sailor.... Parents ??? Yes...... they want to get in the "right program" (Tell me to buy this boat... go here.... support kid.... fill out college application.... DONE) I don't see any young adult going back to a 420...
(lasers are the only single hander in the game).

We sell this as CROSS TRAINING.... the notion is well supported by US Sailing. They are not campaiging a cat for the summer....

My notion is that we need a yacht club with space to park 10 of Wouter's cheap cats. the catsailors of the club commmit to keeping these things running. Once a month... 3 events a season... they run an invitational event for the region's elite junior sailors.

You pull out the cats at the end of the intro junior sailing class at the club. ... give the kids a taste..... Tell em... they need to join the advanced program and qualifiy there to sail the cat.. The boats GO to the regiona. JO's. but kids OUTSIDE your region come down to compete. your regonal kids are on their laser or 420.

You need one of these centers in a region.

They feed sailors into the US sailng Youth events... the Hobie 16 junior events, etc etc.

Thoughts???

The UKCRA’s view on the RYA’s submission to ISAF

By Nick Dewhirst, UKCRA 20:37 27 September 2007 Average vote 5 stars, by 8 people - Please log in or register to cast your vote.
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The RYA has made two submissions against catamarans for the forthcoming ISAF meeting, which is due to take place on 1st – 11th November. There was no multihull representative on the RYA committee and UKCRA was not consulted nor even informed of these submissions, which we believe are misguided.

Firstly, Submission 129-07 seeks to replace the Open Multihull Class with yet another dinghy class effective from the 2009 Event in the ISAF Youth Sailing World Championships.

This undermines the position of the Olympic catamaran class by denying it a junior trainer. There is a natural progression from junior dinghy classes to Olympic dinghy classes, so how can the RYA expect the highest level of performance to be generated by Olympic competitors in cats?

Secondly, Submission 103-07 lists the events it proposes for the 2012 Olympic Regatta. These include two windsurfing classes and six dinghy classes but no keelboat or catamaran classes. They are relegated to an eviction vote, where only two of four candidates will survive.

This runs counter to the objective of the Olympics to be as inclusive as possible. The differences among dinghies are much less than between dinghies, windsurfers, keelboats and catamarans. The Open Doublehanded Multihull class is the only sailing class that is open to both sexes. There are a large number of catamarans that are actively raced by both sexes. This Open class can equally be made Mixed Sex, like tennis doubles, if that is preferred.

If the secondary Olympic objective is spectator excitement, the Tornado is unequalled. That is not just our view, but also that of the RYA’s peer, US Sailing, who say “Renowned for its strict one-design racing, superb balance and ability to be raced at great speeds in open water, the Tornado has long been acknowledged as "an almost perfect boat." There is no boat of its size that can match a Tornado going to windward in extreme wave conditions.”

If the secondary objective is accessibility, there are thousands of Darts, Hobies and Formula 18 and hundreds of thousands of Hobie 16 worldwide. If it is cost, then let it be noted that equipment is only a small part of the total expense of an Olympic campaign. If there is a combination of secondary objectives, the Hobie Tiger (Formula 18) is one-design, two-sexed, exciting and reasonably priced.

This is not to argue in favour of any one type of catamaran in preference to any other, but simply to state that whatever the objectives there is a catamaran to meet the requirements while making the range of Olympic classes as inclusive as possible. It is just as possible to change the type of catamaran as has been done among windsurfers.

What is the motive of the RYA? If it is not this Olympic ideal, is it cynical gold-digging on the basis that the greater the haul of medals the greater the funding for its staff and operations? If so, let it be noted also that the UK has a record gold medal run unparalleled in recent international youth sailing events. The British youth catamaran teams have won more gold medals than any other British class in the last four ISAF Youth World Championships. Our prospects for multihull Olympic medals are therefore good, even if the RYA has been unusually unsuccessful in the past.

Whatever its real motives, the reasons stated by John Derbyshire’s RYA Committee lack conviction.

“A natural progression for sailors” - Surely the Olympics are not about feeder classes, but about excellence.
“Exciting high speed racing” - There is no dinghy faster than an Olympic Tornado or indeed several other catamaran classes.
“Sailing in supplied equipment” – Have they spoken to Hobie who have a long history of arranging World Championships on that basis?
“A major percentage of dinghy activity taking place throughout the world” – Please supply comparative statistics to support that assertion, which many international catamaran racers would dispute.
“Equal opportunity for men and women” – Why then exclude the only sailing event open to both men and women?
“Symmetry of events makes the sport easier to understand for the public” – What do they mean?
Assuming there are good motives for letting catamaran racers down by disenfranchising their sport from the Olympics, would it not have been courteous to let us down gently, by explaining their plans publicly rather than burying them somewhere in the depths of the ISAF website. After all our members account for a significant proportion of sailing community they represent. Is the RYA bureaucracy so far removed from the frontline that it does not know we exist? Do they think that catamarans do not count? That is certainly how it appears.

If it is a matter of counting, may we suggest that Mr. Derbyshire count the number of signatures on the e-petition, "Against the RYA's recent submissions to ISAF", at www.ipetitions.com/petition/CatamaranSubmission/?e, where he can also read their comments on why they think his committee has got it wrong. He has upset 800 sailors already in the first two days, and many still do not know about his plans.

At this stage the RYA position seems to be a minority view in ISAF. Our analysis of the submissions shows that only Great Britain and a former British colony specifically submit that catamarans be excluded, while those in favour include the two most successful Olympic nations in the world, Russia and the United States. However the question has been raised, so cat fans need to lobby their national sailing authorities. We therefore call on the RYA to demonstrate that it does not have an anti-catamaran bias, not just by explaining itself but also by amending its submissions.

Related Comments: 4 comments on this article

More Information:

YachtsandYachting.com Catamaran Page

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This is so screwed up. What ever happened to kids sailing because it's the most fun thing they know? This system may (or may not) produce good outcomes in senior international competition, but I have trouble believing it's a way to create sustainable growth in participation in the sport in general.

(btw in case it not clear, not a dig at you in any way - just a comment on the system you described)

You are telling me....

I expected... enthusiasm... support... how can we help at the Bay Junior Organizational meeting.... I got the worst reception that I could imagine... Later on... one of the women who has been making this happen for years and years explained the "facts of life" privately. She is very clear that in her opinion... Parents are driving this bus... and the bus's goal is a "unique college application" for a high profile institution.

Also to be fair... the schedule is really tight...
The junior only events happen during the week... perhaps a third of the kids stay for a weekend regatta in opti's or lasers.... the burn out factor is quite high... I don't have any kids... but from what I read... this is par for the course in sport with travel teams using up all of a kids life. Why would sailing be different?

So... i am looking for a work around.

Mark

It seems that a complete cat program from youth starter to olympics would take huge human resources and more money than is probably in the entire catamaran market already. There are established youth programs in place and catamarans could be considered one of the next logical steps in that program... Look at the Optimist success claims based on Olympic results http://www.optiworld.org/ioda-oldboys.html The Tornado class is one of the progressions from their point of view.

What about a coordinated marketing program that introduces Optimist sailors to catamarans as a logical step after their 470 stint? Then a more agressive campaign for the 470 sailors as they leave the parental/coach umbrellas. This could provide dual benifit of setting expectations of progression in Olympic classes but maybe more importantly attracting new skilled sailors into catamarans for lifetimes.

Well that is the general idea with the line-up suggested.





I don't think it has to be. Afterall most classes in the line already exist. Nacra 500, F16, F18/A-cat, Tornado ; so no money is spend on creating this line-up. What needs to be done is coordinate the track between these classes, that is probably takes alot of manhours massaging and smooth talking objectionists but doesn't require any money.

Below the nacra 500 a gap is experienced apparently, so a design need to be found or a new design needs to be created here, together with building its class. That is more work and requires money, but luckily this needs to be a very simple and inexpensive cat anyway, that is if it is to furfill its role to max. So money investment might be very acceptable here. Currently the cost per new F12 (just as an example) is detailed to comes out at 3641 USD when the rudders, rudderstocks and the sail are bought from professional suppliers. These items are actually the two most expensive on the listing, homebuilding them saves about 900 USD and puts the overall cost to roughly 2500 USD. That is still not the same as the cost for a video game but much more attractively priced for a sponsor then a 10.000 boat. I think that it is within the reach of a dedicated club to raise the money to build several of these 12 footers.

I also strongly believe that this is an area why we mustn't look to closely at the obstacles (that will only demotivate) but rather at how one would make it happen if one was forced to do it with a gun to his head. It is often surprising how impossible things can be made to happen if you force yourself to make it happen "somehow !". A "can-do" mentality often does indeed produce results.

Wouter

Typed up a full posting but that one got lost, so here the summery





F12's :

Can be stacked on top of one another. When placed in a rack like they do with lasers then 9 F12's assembled platforms will need a "space box" the size of : length x width x height = 6.5 x 4.0 x 1.5 mtr = about 22 x 13 x 4 feet. The F12 mast can be taken apart into elements no longer then 3.5 mtr in under 5 seconds.

A laser-1 rack needs a space-box of about 4.5 x 4.5 x 1.5 mtr = 15 x 15 x 4 feet.

A fully dissambled F12 will fit into its 4.0 x 1.0 x 0.5 mtr = roughly 13 x 3 x 2 feet transport box that will weigh about 30 kg itself. F12 plus its box will be just shy of 100 kg = 220 lbs. Fully assembling an F12 in 10 minutes or less is a design goal and I think that that can indeed be done. Stacking the F12's in their transport boxes will allow 8 combo's to be stored or transported in a "space box" of 4.0 x 2.0 x 2.0 mtr = 13 x 7 x 7 feet. Boats+trailer will still be under 1000 kg weight = 2200 lbs and can be pulled by a modest family car. 2 adults will be able to unload and assemble all 8 F12's so they are ready to sail in under a hour = 15 minutes per boat.

24 F12's in their transport boxes will fit inside a 40 foot container, shipment to anywhere in the world like this will cost about 300 USD per boat.

A 65 kg F12 (platform weigth = 50 kg) can be car topped on any given car as typically only 50 kg roof load capacity is garanteed. 65 kg is close enough to be save, also because there is ample proof of 61 kg laser hulls being car topped.

Detailed cost estimate puts a new F12 (no labour costs) at 3641 USD when you buy your sail and dotan rudders. If you make these yourself (not too hard to do) then 2500 USD is possible. I think that I'm able to replace ply by foam/glass for simple homebuilding as well. That is more durable and cheaper in the long run as high quality ply is increasingly difficult to source.

The F12 can take the standard laser-1 rig, it has the same surface area, luff length and mast height. The Centre Of Effort will be close enough to the intended F12 rig as well. However looks are important and the battened F12 rig is much more modern in apparence, trim and performance. See attached picture. Shown is a 5.5 sq. mtr. 4.7 mtr luff sleeved sail on a homemade aluminium mast. The intended F12 rig is just a scaled up version with the same surface area as the laser-1, as such it will be 7.00 sq. mtr by 5 mtr long luff. mast height will be 5.7 mtr. mast weight is just under 10 kg = 22 lbs



I'm getting a little off track in answering the "space" question, but I felt that this could be important data with respect to club space and required investment in building the class. That is if the overall discussion concludes that a craft like the F12 has a role to play in the youth programs

Wouter

So in summary.... or what I read into this thread

1) the Opti has it right and a good starter boat for all

2) After the Opti kids tend to go into monohulls, due to peer pressure, parents or scholarships

3) Cat classes exist above the laser 4.7 and 420 range, thus a 'new' cat has to be designed to fill this gap.

4) Not enough kids go into cats see 2 and 3

5) Attitude towards cats by MNAs and Parents

6) Perception is that running a Cat is expensive, (not sure if thats just a UK thing or not)

7) Lack of support by MNA for a cat programme

So IMHO rather than having a US cat approach to ISAF and a UK one ALL cat sailors should unite and come up with a unified approach

Looking over the vanguard price listing :


A club420 goes for 6995 USD = 7000 USD where the lastest detailed cost estimate for the F12 is at 3641 USD and thus 2 F12's for 7282 USD.

A laser 1 (any version) will set you back at least 5000 USD.

Opt goes for 2600 USD.

Not a discouraging picture, I say.

Especially not with the ability of the F12 to take the laser-1 rig. That too cuts down seriously in start-up costs if the club already has several of these laying around. It would certainly be a good selling argument towards the club even though it is practically assured that special F12 sails will be made later.

Come to think of, with a suit of special F12 sails the laser-1's at the club will also have access to more powerful and more controllable rigs that can be put on the laser without modification. Multfunctionality and another selling point to convince the club's dinghy sailors that to allow cats in may be in their personal interest as well ?

Wouter

I think what you are proposing looks good. I agree with stuartoffer and have been saying pretty much the same, that what is needed is a unified approach to the issue. So that the US is not doing one thing and the UK and the rest of the world another. So maybe we need to begin a thread that specifically deals with the development issue solely. Actually, I think that thread actually exists and needs to be updated. Maybe Rick can set up a thread on the issue that stays on the front page and keeps it in everyones mind.

You are absolutely correct.

I think the line of proposed boats c.q classes certainly reflects this as well. All are present in ample numbers all over the world. The nacra 5.0 c.q. 500 class needs reviving, but I'm sure you'll find a willing ear at the European Nacra importer. They are reporting many sales of this boat and I'm sure they are happy to form a class with them. We just need to make sure that nacra doesn't change the design every 2 years from now on. I suspect none of the other classes like F18's and A-cats will object to accepting a youth pipeline being fed into their classes. They would be foolish to do so. Same for the Tornado and F16 classes.

Okay, I admit there are some impressive fools about. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />


I think it most promising to start contacting the individual international classes and try to work out a plan that is publically supported by all. This costs no money so they will be hard pressed to object. It is just some prominantly featured webpage on the international and national sites and some promise to try to work out some small coaching programs and clinic for young teams new to the class. The classes are big enough to be able to find a few enthousiastic volunteers to do something like this on a small scale. Doesn't have to be large scale from the start, just start small, proof the concept and then steady expand it over time.


Being noticed by the ISAF, RYA, US sailing and others is just more paper (e-mails) too. We just need somebody with some spare time and a high resistance against maddening bureaucray to exert continued pressure over long periods of time. We give this person standing and power by having all the class in the youth traject refer to him for any communication on these topics. In short, create a single focal point for these monolithic organisations and empower him. Then they can also not say that they didn't know who to contact anymore. Solves that issue as well.

Up till now this has all been "no-budget" activities, just takes time and dedication.

The hard part is to get an active "get them young" youth program going on the Nacra 500 (and Hobie 16's) and the cat alternative to the Lasers. This will require organising small events and more serious coaching. I think Mark Schneider has the right angle here. Start at the sailing clubs, contacting them and convince them to allow you to place a demo boat there and have access to their coach/young sailors. Only a few key clubs at first and then steadily expand the programs. Start small, proof the concept and expand later. That may luck futile at first but it will work.

That should cover the organisational and international unity side of things, at least as a start.


The other hard thing is finding or designing the catamaran alternative to the laser. Establishing that class will be major project. With the F12 I can offer a head-start but it will still not be easy. On the other hand I have received over the months inquiries from Norway, UK, USA, Holland, Spain and even places like Thailand. For a project that has no real internet presence I find that very encouraging. It seems to touch a snare in many people, they appear to like concept.

I dare venture that building it is easy enough to form small local building groups of enthousiasts. Some people inquiring about the F12 mentioning forming such groups themselves. It appears many do not find homebuilding an F12 as daunting as say home building an A-cat or F16. On the advice of Phill Brander I'm sticking to an easy to build hull shape. All the other stuff like homebuilding a mast and the sails are really not hard to do. I just measured up my class 5 sail and there is no seaming there. Just stichting panels together with reinforcements and cutting a luff curve. There is not bolt rope, eyes or other more complicated stuff required. It is on a par with stitching your own stunt kites and many a homebuilder has done that. I also envision having the boat owner cost his own panels and supplying that with proper a thread to a decent sized shoe/bag maker and have him use his industrial sized machine to stitch the stuff together. Otherwise if have contacts who could do it professionally and send it over. The package is small and light so should cost too much

What I'm trying to say here is that I think we can also make the laser alternative work. It will be more involved and require some committed hands-on activity but it can be made to work even without companies like Vanguard involved. Never count on their support, that way you are garanteed proper support by them.

The other alternative is to approach a company like VectorWork Marine and have them do the hulls which will then be completed by the homebuilders themselves. This is attractive to VWM as their core business is tooling and production but not chandlery and fitting out boats. The later is time consuming, expensive and takes alot of organising. So if the group of dedicated buyers is large enough then that route can be made to work as well. Maybe find similar setups using guys like Steve Clark and his semi-professional "shed" ? I think I know a likely victom in Australia as well. Once such programs are about getting kids into sailing many people can't just say "no!" anymore. Lets abuse that !

Yes I think both complementary tracks can be made to work with a "no budget" to "low budget" approach. Once the concept is starting to proof itself we can go and hunt for sponsors to expand the programs and maybe get on the road.

This is the way I would approach the situation.

Wouter