| Re: Blade's strengths and weakness?
[Re: Robi]
#120497 10/20/07 01:05 AM 10/20/07 01:05 AM |
Joined: Jan 2006 Posts: 13 Dubai, UAE davidh
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Posts: 13 Dubai, UAE | Having had mine for a year and just recently helping build two new blades. On mine I've replaced ropes, cleats etc and moved things to where I want them. I think the new blades are pretty much spot on regarding fittings. Matts done a great job evolving his product & out of the box, there's nothing I would change (except tiller extension)!
Dave H
VWM Blade F16
UAE719
Dubai
| | | Re: Blade's strengths and weakness?
[Re: davefarmer]
#120498 10/20/07 05:22 AM 10/20/07 05:22 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 9,582 North-West Europe Wouter
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Having sailed all versions of the Blade I agree that the evolution is there. On the very last day of the Zandvoort event (second day of distance racing) I crewed for Geert on his Alter Cup boat. I can only say :"WOW, what a upwind monster". We had heard these comments form the US Alter Cup sailors and I can only concur. That sail design is just right.
I'm very happy with Taipan but I do think the Blade is overall better. The strong points of the Taipan are its 1-up performance in very light winds. Blade's are nicer in all other conditions in my opinion. The only real caveat is that big wind under spinnaker the Blade stays flat and calm for all the way up to the threshold and then falls off it. The Taipan is certainly less dive-happy, it is in fact more so but because the bows start nodding a little before meeting the actual threshold you get ample advance warning, on the boat you can power it up all the way to inches of the threshold and feel like you have still acres left. That is what get most newbies and a few experiences sailors as well. But once get the know the craft better you'll know where the push and were to hold back a little. In my opinion the Stealth has its strong point right there with the T-foils. And so we have covered all 3 strong points of each boat. The Viper and Aussie Blade are still to young to be judged on this but they are said to be a little bit more forgiving downwind in a blow as well. It certainly looked that way.
Also there is another thing that most F16 sailors do well to learn. It simply pays so much to anticipate the wind and gusts on the downwind legs. If you are a fraction to late then yes the bows goes (but still recovers all the time) be on time and you drive it deep and accellerate fast with each gust. Timing is absolutely everything here. If a guyy is walking away from you under spinnaker (like Tim I expect) then it is this that he is doing right. It will feel like you are bearing off and heading up again BEFORE the gust is there. Look for, train yourself on it and experience the results.
Wouter
Wouter Hijink Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild) The Netherlands
| | | Re: Blade's strengths and weakness?
[Re: davefarmer]
#120499 10/20/07 05:55 AM 10/20/07 05:55 AM | Anonymous
Unregistered
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Unregistered | Hi Dave,
I would not call the "Formula Catamarans Australia" Blade (the only one I have experience with) lightly built. It is every bit as strong as the Taipan, with it's standard Kevlar outer skin and Kevlar reinforcing of bulkheads and frames it seems bullet proof <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />. Or at least Hobie 16 proof so far, I have hade one bounce of leaving a dent but no cracking of the skin. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> | | | Re: Blade's strengths and weakness?
[Re: Wouter]
#120500 10/20/07 07:16 AM 10/20/07 07:16 AM | Anonymous
Unregistered
| Anonymous
Unregistered | Wouter, what makes the Aussie Blade different from VWM wrt downwind behavior? Are there any differences in hull shape? | | | Re: Blade's strengths and weakness?
[Re: davefarmer]
#120504 10/20/07 09:55 PM 10/20/07 09:55 PM |
Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 1,121 Eastern NC, USA tshan
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,121 Eastern NC, USA | are you all as happy with the Blade? These boats are built really light, aren't you seeing them break some? Thanks! My thoughts on buying a used US based VWM Blade: 1. Make sure the hulls are kevlar (almost all are). Look for dimpling, as described in earlier posts. 2. Check whether the daggerboards leak (my first low aspect boards leaked) 3. Inspect the rudders closely (the earlier types cracked at the rudder head) That's about it. Most of these items have already been replaced on all early VWM Blades, but if you are looking for things to check - then that is it. Later models of the VWM have already have these evolutions in place. It is an evolution and things do get better in each cycle. This is not a trend for VWM boats, but for all boats. Certain hull numbers have always been coveted because they are "stiffer" or "better built" - N5.2 2300 series boats are "the fastest" still today. AHPC has had many more boats built from their moulds and have had a chance to perfect their product. US built VWM Blades have had many fewer boats built, but have been improving them with each cycle. The latest boats have been VERY good, IMO. The Blades are just as well built, just make sure they have been taken care of and kept up to date. You will find lemons in every line of boat/car/golf club/etc. You just need to know what to look for.
Last edited by tshan; 10/20/07 09:59 PM.
Tom | | | Re: Blade's strengths and weakness?
[Re: PTP]
#120506 10/21/07 04:57 AM 10/21/07 04:57 AM | Anonymous
Unregistered
| Anonymous
Unregistered | Hi all,
as suggested I would agree that Kevlar makes no difference when it comes to dents, the amount of denting that occurs in a Glass or Kevlar outer skin is a result of the core stiffness, as was said, solid glass boats had little trouble with this but they are to heavy and flexible for a F16 hull.
So the amount of denting is reliant on the density of the foam core on boats like Taipans and Blades and then it is still a balancing act between weight and dent resistance,along with thickness for overall stiffness. I have certainly seen some Mosquito's in OZ that dent to easily. Can not comment on those in the US, it may be worth asking the manafacturer if he has altered foam core density at all, as that is what they did with the Mossies in OZ. | | | Re: Blade's strengths and weakness?
[Re: fin.]
#120508 10/21/07 09:07 AM 10/21/07 09:07 AM |
Joined: Jul 2004 Posts: 2,718 St Petersburg FL Robi
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,718 St Petersburg FL | I can't think of anything I would call a weakness. The cosmetic dimpling I have results from hitting things or dropping it off the trailer <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />.
Fortunately, I havent't hit any channel markers (with the hull) yet <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />. Or those pesky anchor lines that always get in the way. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> | | | Re: Blade's strengths and weakness?
[Re: Robi]
#120510 10/21/07 09:51 AM 10/21/07 09:51 AM |
Joined: Mar 2006 Posts: 1,246 Orlando, FL tback
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Posts: 1,246 Orlando, FL | [/quote]Or those pesky anchor lines that always get in the way. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> [/quote]
HAHAHAHAH
Yea Robi, that was an incredible sight. Sorta' like stubbing your toe on the (elevated) crack in the sidewalk and finding your face on the cement!
But more damage to the foils that dimpling your hulls ... unless you count the dimple on your forehead from smacking the water.
HAHAHAHA
USA 777
| | | Re: Blade's strengths and weakness?
[Re: tback]
#120512 10/21/07 10:34 AM 10/21/07 10:34 AM |
Joined: Feb 2006 Posts: 3,348 fin.
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,348 | [/quote]Or those pesky anchor lines that always get in the way. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> HAHAHAHAH Yea Robi, that was an incredible sight. Sorta' like stubbing your toe on the (elevated) crack in the sidewalk and finding your face on the cement! But more damage to the foils that dimpling your hulls ... unless you count the dimple on your forehead from smacking the water. HAHAHAHA [/quote] I take it your team lost. . . again <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />. | | | Re: Blade's strengths and weakness?
[Re: fin.]
#120513 10/21/07 10:51 AM 10/21/07 10:51 AM |
Joined: Mar 2006 Posts: 1,246 Orlando, FL tback
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Posts: 1,246 Orlando, FL | No actually played pretty good. Held the #2 ranked offense in the country to 23 pts ... while we scored 44. Yipppee.
Much better than the drubbing we took at So.FL last week.
USA 777
| | | Re: Blade's strengths and weakness?
[Re: Robi]
#120514 10/21/07 11:14 AM 10/21/07 11:14 AM |
Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 1,121 Eastern NC, USA tshan
old hand
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old hand
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,121 Eastern NC, USA | Tom, I remember you and Terry ran into dagger board and or rudder problems. I have one of the same dagger boards and rudders and have never had to deal with delam problems. WIERD! Exactly right, Robi. I did not intend to imply that all boards and rudders were bad - but there were a limited few problems. It'd be a good thing to check prior to purchasing a 2004/2005/2006 Blade, imo.
Tom | | | Re: Blade's strengths and weakness?
[Re: tshan]
#120515 10/21/07 11:56 AM 10/21/07 11:56 AM |
Joined: Mar 2006 Posts: 1,246 Orlando, FL tback
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veteran
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,246 Orlando, FL | I had a delamination problem with one rudder (an original carbon fibre rudder--not being produced any longer), VectorWorks replaced both rudders without question.
USA 777
| | | Re: Blade's strengths and weakness?
[Re: ]
#120516 10/22/07 08:42 AM 10/22/07 08:42 AM |
Joined: Sep 2005 Posts: 1,187 38.912, -95.37 _flatlander_
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,187 38.912, -95.37 | Hi all,
as suggested I would agree that Kevlar makes no difference when it comes to dents, the amount of denting that occurs in a Glass or Kevlar outer skin is a result of the core stiffness, as was said, solid glass boats had little trouble with this but they are to heavy and flexible for a F16 hull.
So the amount of denting is reliant on the density of the foam core on boats like Taipans and Blades and then it is still a balancing act between weight and dent resistance,along with thickness for overall stiffness. I have certainly seen some Mosquito's in OZ that dent to easily. Can not comment on those in the US, it may be worth asking the manafacturer if he has altered foam core density at all, as that is what they did with the Mossies in OZ. and from Bobcat My boat isn't Kevlar. Kevlar may be something to look for. and from PTP Not sure kevlar would makes much of a difference. and from Tom (tshan) 1. Make sure the hulls are kevlar (almost all are). So is there a consensus here? Are you saying kevlar reduces, but does not eliminate dimpling? Are there other attributes or drawbacks of a kevlar outer skin? For instance, added resistance to puncture wounds? More difficult to repair? Thanks
John H16, H14
| | | Re: Blade's strengths and weakness?
[Re: fin.]
#120520 10/22/07 03:42 PM 10/22/07 03:42 PM |
Joined: May 2002 Posts: 1,037 Central California ejpoulsen
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 1,037 Central California | I have an AHPC Kevlar Taipan that seems to be very strong and I have not seen any dimpling, leaking, daggerboard well issues, delamination, etc. I have no idea about the Blade.
Eric Poulsen A-class USA 203 Ultimate 20 Central California
| | | Re: Blade's strengths and weakness?
[Re: _flatlander_]
#120521 10/22/07 04:38 PM 10/22/07 04:38 PM |
Joined: Jun 2005 Posts: 61 Northwest-Germany Hamburg Holger
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 61 Northwest-Germany Hamburg | The outer layer of a sandwich composite has to withstand tensile loads and the inner layer compression loads in case of an impact. When we compare the different laminate materials: Tensile strength [MPa] E-glass 2400, Kevlar 3000, Carbon 4000, we see that carbon is the strongest material, but in case of an accident Kevlar has it's large advantage over the other materials. Strain at break point E-Glass 4.5%, Kevlar 2%, Carbon 1.2%. The 1.2% figure for carbon fibre indicates that though very strong it is also very brittle and will break shortly after the load stress passes yield point. So the advantage of Kevlar as outer layer is, that it is lighter than glass, stronger in tensile strenght and not brittle. In case of repair Kevlar will fuzz at the surface if you want to sand it, and it is hard to cut. It must be covered with glass or gel coat. Here the source for the above mentioned with more technical background: http://oneoceankayaks.com/Sandcore.htmhttp://www.auf.asn.au/scratchbuilder/composites.html
------------- Dynautic Blade F16-GER 001
| | | Re: Blade's strengths and weakness?
[Re: Gato]
#120523 10/23/07 03:19 AM 10/23/07 03:19 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 9,582 North-West Europe Wouter
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Carpal Tunnel
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Posts: 9,582 North-West Europe |
Those are not good reasons to discard Kevlar as Carbon is at least as sensitive to UV when untreated and glass is at least as hydrophile as Kevlar can ever be. Both other materials are used extensively so why not Kevlar.
Wouter
Wouter Hijink Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild) The Netherlands
| | | Re: Blade's strengths and weakness?
[Re: waynemarlow]
#120526 10/23/07 11:25 AM 10/23/07 11:25 AM |
Joined: Sep 2005 Posts: 1,187 38.912, -95.37 _flatlander_
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old hand
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,187 38.912, -95.37 | Farrier will not allow Kevlar on the outer skin, not sure why, can anyone enlighten me, Back to what Holger said In case of repair Kevlar will fuzz at the surface if you want to sand it, and it is hard to cut. It must be covered with glass or gel coat. Concured by extensive search of "kevlar" on this forum (after I asked) seems the common layering is gelcoat, glass, then kevlar. The common theme for kevlar use is not structural strength, but improved dent resistance
John H16, H14
| | | Re: Blade's strengths and weakness?
[Re: Gato]
#120527 10/23/07 11:30 AM 10/23/07 11:30 AM |
Joined: Jun 2005 Posts: 61 Northwest-Germany Hamburg Holger
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journeyman
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 61 Northwest-Germany Hamburg | How does the water come to the Kevlar strands as long as it is bedded in the epoxy matrix? Epoxy does not absorb water, like polyester or vinylester. So when the Kevlar is stored dry prior the laminating process, everything would be ok? And most builders use a gelcoat or painted surface which inhibits UV.
------------- Dynautic Blade F16-GER 001
| | | Re: Blade's strengths and weakness?
[Re: ncik]
#120530 10/23/07 08:11 PM 10/23/07 08:11 PM |
Joined: Jun 2004 Posts: 1,479 Thailand Buccaneer
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Posts: 1,479 Thailand | The Kevlar is stiffer and doesn’t dent (just be sure to leave the car/house keys at home and not in your back pocket)... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
"House prices have risen by nearly 25 percent over the past two years. Although speculative activity has increased in some areas, at a national level these price increases largely reflect strong economic fundamentals." – Ben Bernanke – 2005
| | | Re: Blade's strengths and weakness?
[Re: Buccaneer]
#120531 10/23/07 08:41 PM 10/23/07 08:41 PM |
Joined: Sep 2003 Posts: 264 Long Island, NY gregP19
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Posts: 264 Long Island, NY | I'm changing from the "hook" system to the "keyhole" system for my harness. To me that is a good way to be proactive in the interest of minimizing holes in the hulls of my fragile Blade.
G Gove
Blade #728
Long Island, New Yawk
| | | Re: Blade's strengths and weakness?
[Re: davefarmer]
#120532 10/24/07 03:19 PM 10/24/07 03:19 PM |
Joined: Jun 2005 Posts: 61 Northwest-Germany Hamburg Holger
journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 61 Northwest-Germany Hamburg | I found that the round 80x2mm alu beams are not so stiff as expected. I think these are the recommended ones which most homebuilders use. In choppy waves i can see and feel some vibration in the platform. Compared from memory to my former Nacra 500 it is noticeable more. Would a replacement with 80x3mm carbon tubes for example bring effectively more stiffness? How far does a little more flexible platform suffer in speed compared to a optimized platform with more rigid beams? Probably working on my sailing skills has more effect than new beams, but it is always nice to have optimal material for the beloved sport.
------------- Dynautic Blade F16-GER 001
| | | Re: Blade's strengths and weakness?
[Re: Holger]
#120533 10/25/07 04:28 AM 10/25/07 04:28 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 9,582 North-West Europe Wouter
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Posts: 9,582 North-West Europe | 80x2 beams are in the homebuilding plans because these are universally availbable the world over while having a good ration between weight and stiffness.
Not all stiffness comes from the beams, the stiffness of the beams landings and torsional stiffness of the hulls between the beams is important as well. Basically, we need to find out first what the case of your problem is and adress that.
Going for 80x3 mm beams will give you 50% more beam stiffness but this will not translate directly into 50% stiffness increase of the whole platform because of the other factors named above.
Weight increase (for 2 beams) will be about 4 kg.
It is worth a try, but I don't expect more then 25% stifness increase.
How much does the boat flex now ?
Measuring this involved laying the platform up on its sterns (without mast etc) and seeing how far one bow needs to be lifted before the other bow is lifted clear of its support as well.
By the way the nacra 500 (and nacra 5.0) used the beams of the larger boats like the Nacra 6.0 and F18's and that makes them very stiff for the Nacra 500. Of course this comes at a cost, in the case of the Nacra 500 this cost is roughly 50 kg additional boat weight and 20% slower performance.
Stiffness of a platform is important but certainly not all important. More stiffness is mostly better in the way of feel in very choppy conditions. In the way of all-out speed I'm not sure how important is really is.
Wouter
Last edited by Wouter; 10/25/07 04:31 AM.
Wouter Hijink Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild) The Netherlands
| | | Re: Blade's strengths and weakness?
[Re: Wouter]
#120534 10/25/07 03:11 PM 10/25/07 03:11 PM |
Joined: Jun 2005 Posts: 61 Northwest-Germany Hamburg Holger
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journeyman
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Posts: 61 Northwest-Germany Hamburg | How much does the boat flex now ? Measuring this involved laying the platform up on its sterns (without mast etc) and seeing how far one bow needs to be lifted before the other bow is lifted clear of its support as well. Wouter
For a exact measurement in this manner I'll wait till the season is over, and I have to take the mast down. Probably beginning of the november. So far I enjoy the last sailing days with cold feet
------------- Dynautic Blade F16-GER 001
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