Somebody can tell me if I'm mistaken, but I believe this whole effort was directed towards OD pretty much from its inception.

Not entirely, in the public arena it was definately started as a strict formula setup hence the name choice F12. Phill and I had discussed the concept in private for several years but that project had stayed inactive for several year as well. Phill always aimed at a OD setup, but I figures it wasn't going anyway after several year of inactivity and hence I started the F12 branch off when in late 2006 there were many discussions on youth boats on the main cat sailor forum. This F12 forum is a direct result of that.

My intention at the time was to come to a strict formula rule setup that was like the F16 setup with a few added rules to make the boats less complex and more inexpensive to purchase and own. I was thinking of rules to force unstayed rigs made from round tubing, force boardless hulls and not use specialized fittings like traveller rails.

Within these limits the design was to be left open and I still believe such a rule set still allows alot of designer freedom.

But when we failed to reach agreement in Jan and Feb of this year I left the project alone for a while to see who was really active. Turned out most posters were just interested in mouthing off rather then reaching a true concensus. So I continued to work privately on the concept that now differed significantly from Phill original idea and it had progressed way beyond the stage at which the orginal was when it allowed to dooze off. This august (after the F16 GC) I decided to give it another shot but now I stood more favourably to the OD setup as I wasn't expect to much valuable contributions (as based on my earlier experiences). I figured that more advantages were to be had by fixing the hulls design and all everybody to license build the design were the builders fee would be gethered centrally to allow the class organisation to reinvest it in things like charter boats and bulk production of some of the more expensive items and selling them on at cost. Of course this demanded tighter control of ownership rights. Exaclt, the thing many jumped on to revive their "bitching without contributing anything meaningful".

After that event I figured I was better off on my own and get a full OD class going as Phill intended all along. Then Phill came back with a recently revived Blade 12 project and Scarecrow showed to not have left the project to have gone underground with his own OD design. The fourth design is RG's and I don't think he has a choice either way yet. From my perspective I'm happy to work inside a true formula rule as long as it doesn't try to mimic the A-cat class because I know that that simply won't work. See the Optimist example here. If you start a mini A-cat class you will get exactly that; a 15.000 bucks A-cat that is only 12 feet long.

If the others persist at going at it alone then I will do so too. I'm currently giving Luiz all the support that I can and hope that somehow we can still get that strict Formula going or OPEN OD (like the Tornado of 2 decades ago) whatever you call it.

And that puts us were we are now.

Wouter

Personally I see very little value in going one design and here is my logic:

A few years ago a good friend of mine who was then quite high up in Macdonald's Marketing and I had a conversation about Mc-cafe (which I assume is in the US and Europe too) and what a success it had become. The interesting thing was the background behind its introduction. The logic is that in most groups of people there is one person who "doesn't eat fast food" as a result if they are a particularly vocal member of that group (or the parent in a family group) they can stop the whole group eating at Macdonalds. This person was known as the gateway customer as they were acting as a gate stopping other potential customers coming into the store.

The idea of Mc Cafe was that it would remove this customer's excuse thereby letting the other customers in. The Mc Cafes were originally intended to operate at a loss, as the loss would be more than offset by the added turnover over the main counter. The truth is they were so successful that they actually make money in their own right.

Ok, back to boats.

First of what is our goal: To get kids sailing cats rather than monos.

Double bottem line of the class therefor needs to be:

1. Design of boat should be attractive to kids both in terms of styling and performance.

2. Design of boat should be attractive to parents (harder to please) from a cost, styling, performance and safety point of view.

(in both of these I include rigging time in performance)

Why is my Mac's story relevent...

If there is one element of a boat that doesn't appeal to either the parent or the child, either one of them could become the gateway customer and say this boat is not for us and move on to the next class. By providing a range of choices (4 at last count) hopefully one of the designs will slip through and get the kid into the class.

From a market research point of view it is interesting that the designs that have grabbed people's attention enough for them to say lets start building have boards and when specifically asked that is the solution they want.

You will see local one design classes develop (as you do with f18 and other formula classes) due to conditions, what was their first etc, however at this stage trying to get a one size fits all boat will actually minimise (or slow down)its acceptance. In ten years if there are 100 boats turning up to a worlds and chequebook racing is becoming an issue then lets let the people running the class then handle it.

I'm happy to see the formula rules tighened (luff length, mast height etc) but as stated previously I could not in good conscience vote or agree to limit choices on rigging boards/skegs etc. For example I see a great case for a two child trainer with a reduced main sail area and a jib.

And just to clarify, I see this boat as a kids boat for under 12s.

My basic sailing history is.

Age 6. Crewed (sailed with) my dad on an Hobie 14 turbo (pulling on jib and trapesing in light conditions) at regionial regattas.

Age 9. Sailing lessons (club wouldn't let us do them any younger).

Age 10-11 single handed dad's hobie 14 between and after races at regattas (too big by then to crew with him).

Age 12 Competed in (as crew) and finished in top half of fleet (about 40 boats) Hobie 18 Nationals

Age 14 Still sailing Hobie 18s, single handing TheMightyHobie18 from trap with main and jib.

Adult hood, aside from keelboats and a period of sharpie sailing with the uni I've only ever raced or wanted to race cats. I'm the product we are after and it was started by getting me racing cats at 6 years of age.

That has to be the best logic I've seen so far for not going down the OD route....it gets my vote, even if scarecrow comes from that small island across the pond thats the other state of NZ <grin> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Great post, great case study!

There is only one catch:
Getting kids into SAILING cats is not the same as getting kids into RACING cats.

If the goal is SAILING, it makes perfect sense to follow Scarecrow's advice and opt for a Formula.

If the goal is RACING, it makes more sense to follow the other logic (Optimist/Laser experience, pissing contests, etc.) and opt for a One Design.

If the goal is mixed, the decision depends on the priorities.

What is our primary goal: get kids into SAILING or RACING cats?

Getting them sailing should be the first priority...after you have them hooked you can "Trade Sheep" all you want. If its racing only, those that don't want to race will be alienated...If you are just trying to teach them to have fun on the water those that want to race will gravitate to that on their own…it will be a natural progression rather than something that is forced.

Regards,
Bob

These two goals are intertwined and difficult to seperate, not should we try to seperate them. Racing is whats attracts promotion, status and coolness. Recreational sailing is the breeding ground and the pool on which the builders achieve commercial viability.

To get from A to B a Model T Ford was succesful but this it was replaced by more performant cars over time. Car marketers always praise the sportiness of their cars not that it is succesful from getting you from A to B.

Think about that.

Besides I think we should really try to strike two birds with one stone.

Wouter

The F12 is for kids, so maybe we should think bikes instead of cars. Sportiness coupled with training wheels. Fast when seen by the kid and safe when seen by the parent.

Before the McDonald's cafe example I failed to realise that the reasons backing a One Design were based on giving priority to racing. Here are some possible explanations for the subconscient choice I implicitly made:

- Kids are competitive. The first thing they want after learning to sail is race with other kids.

- Races are probably the best way to keep kids interested after they can move around in a boat.

- Races are perceived by parents as safer than plain sailing or even regular classes because they imply supervision (RC), support boats (many teachers), parents' boats, bigger kids around to help, etc.

- Races make people gather during specific periods, forcing social networking. This helps make friends (and enemies). Social networking is considered positive for the development of kids (but some groups may be negative).

- Racing entry boats is comparable to doing tests at school: both activities accelerate the learning process and help measure the kids' progress.

- Racing requires skill. If a kid races or intends to race, he/she must receive more coaching and will become a better sailor sooner. Parents seem to know this.

- If we take plain sailing as the priority, prospect racers will migrate to another class soon (kids start competing almost imediately after they learn to sail). Early migration will translate into two entry classes, two entry programs, two entry groups - and half the number of kids in each group. It is reasonable to assume that both groups will receive a better and more focused trainment, but at the cost of nearly doubling organization and support efforts or catching less people. I believe we prefer quantity over quality in an entry boat.
Conclusion: I tend to agree with Wouter that it is preferable to target both sailing and racing with one class only.

Let's find more reasons to choose "sailing", "racing" and "both" as the main target so that we can make a list and decide. Short sentences will make the decision process easier.

And what makes boats built to a box rule [formula] unsuitable for racing?? F16, F18 aren't competitive? I don't understand. I would have thought the association with various different brands would increase the competitive nature of the game. What am I missing here?

I think Luiz's point (of course he can speak for himself) is not that a formula is unsuitable for racing in general (that's plainly not true), but that in the context of junior sailing, greater certainly of equality between boats will be more likely to convince parents of kids inclined to race to invest, since they will have greater confidence that their kids will be able to compete on equal terms.

In this context, perception may be more important than reality to an even greater degree than in an adult formula class. In the latter case most of us are comfortable with the idea that any difference in performance between different designs is less significant than differences in sailing ability. In a junior sailing context, with parents who may not be hard-core sailors themselves, a perception that you have to have the latest design to compete may be off-puting to parents who just aren't able or willing to buy the latest design.

Luiz, am I interpreting more or less correctly?

Having said all that, I get the impression that the consensus here on the forum is moving towards the formula approach - partly because of insufficient consensus about some of the important design features and partly for the reasons that scarecrow outlined.

Bob,
I agree, good post and it reflects what I have noticed teaching.
If we don't get them on the water and having fun we are not going to get them racing. Racing will come but if it is the focus you will lose most of them before they get hooked.
In a race there is only one winner.
The most enjoyable sailing classes for the kids that I've run is when we had the kids playing games in their 12 ft surfcats. They all come off the water happy.
When racing one or two were happy and the rest looked like they wanted to be somewhere else. Remember a competative child wants to win.
If you focus on getting them on the water and having fun the racing will follow.

Jeffs made a good post.
Nice and short and to the point.

I pick the ply up for the Blade 12 on Monday.
They have it in stock thank goodness.

BTW: 3800mm should be long enough.

One more point,

Racing among kids is different from racing full F18 courses that take on average 45 minutes to complete and go very close to the horizon.

A thing that worked really well with lasers a few times was to have short courses and short races. Say every 10 to 15 minutes as winner and then the next start. This was very succesful in getting the fleet going. If you screwed up one race then you could simply try again the next race and get lucky.

This format was even commericialized overhere by one guy. He has 12 laser standards and a pond of water and you could rent a laser for 2 hours including racing for I think 25 euro's. The water was about 1 meter deep (which is enough) and he would sail out to set some bouy out. Then from the jetty he would start and finish the races. Typically 2 laps, under 15 minute duration.

This concept became so succesful that he is booked for full a year in advance for every weeknight during the main summer months. There are groups of friends and groups from companies that have a fixed time and date on which they do their racing. Some groups even have small ladder competitions. The guys is able to make a living of this.

It sure helps that overhere the summer evenings have good daylight till 22:30 (10:30 pm) at night. He can bring in 500 bucks per evening and 5 days a week. So he can accept a few windless or rainy days.

Why ? Because the lasers are relatively easy boats to master and easily repaired while having enough performance to make racing fun.

I think a similar concept could well be had with F12's. Even more so as they will be easier to master still and even more performant. When they are boardlesss the damage risks are even less.

It was getting to concepts like these that kept me enthousiastic about the F12. I really think there is potential in this approach. Even towards youths. Just as they go out carting (also 25 buckes but now for a single 15 minute ride/race) they can go out racing sailboats on a nice day ! Racing as in 10 heats per 2 hours. And finish off a whole series in one go. Or just go broad reaching about, what ever they want. It is their 25 bucks.

If the kids are still very young and are put off by competitiveness then this concept will still work with "games" as defined by Phill. The fact that any parent can rent a boat for a few weeknight during the first summer is really important in lower the threshold. They will take to it and then a purchase will be justified or the kids gives it up after a few tries and then the parent is only what 200 bucks poorer (8 times trying) ?

Side effects are of course you'll get a stream of old charter boats being sold on each year and the fact that part of the eanings come from other groups then youths, who can be a bit undependable economically speaking. Basically the adult racing can be used to generate income that can be reinvested in keeping this program that is easily accessible to kids and youth alive and maybe even to reinvest the money on a larger skill with respect to kids like true coaching be a skilled sailor.

Everything costs money guys, so we will do well to design a proper income into this class and these boats.

If the boats are cheap enough in purchase and maintaince amd perform well enough with an adult on boards then I think this has real economic viability.

Wouter

I couldn't say it better, thanks.
Berny's confusion is caused by an apparent contradiction:

The application of tighter OD rules is more suitable for low cost racing even if they yield relatively slower boats (a feature that also helps selling to novice kids' parents).

A Formula gives more desin freedom, yielding better and faster boats, but costs will go through the roof when parents start their pissing contest.

It is more or less like production car racing, Nascar and Indy. Drivers start on strict OD production cars but may migrate to Nascar (= more freedom and expense) or Indy (= even more freedom and expense).

Mark's observation that the group tends to support a Formula is correct and I am sure this cuts the time lost in discussions, fights, votes, etc.

From my experience with the Optimist, a successfull worldwide youth Formula/loose OD will end as a Strict One Design anyway. But we are not forced to eliminate the Formula stage as they did with the Laser.

That's why I took someone's earlier suggestion to do both things: develop four boats under the Formula rule to be sailed as OD locally (or Formula internationally), and then compromise on a fifth boat as a strict one design, with an eye in the global market.

Saw a great 8 ft cat hanging in a shed not far from Darryl Barrett must be about 30yrs old and owned by a ex F18 owner. Darryl you know the boat the owners going to take some photos how hard would it be to make a plug of that one. The hulls had long skegs then small skegs just in front of the rudders to protect them. The rudders were small and the hulls would have been popped out of a mould then the decks put on. The rig was really heavy and with todays rigs it would look great, this is obviously for small kids but the design is so close to what were trying to do now.
regards

See, now that's the thing here. We're talking about getting young kids into sailing via a small cat class. The main aim I'm guessing is, or should be anyway, to put bums in boats but already we are having discussions about restricting the activity to an OD class which immediately excludes the many, many, many, existing small cats. There's plenty about, several here in Australia and I'm guessing elsewhere in the world and your master plan to achieve your objective is to make all these boats redundant. This is just BS. Why? I'll tell you why, it has nothing to do with getting kids sailing and everything to do with EGO!
If this was a legitimate effort, the main focus would be on the kids, but it isn't. They don't give a flying fig what sort of boat it is at age 8/10/12, they just want to have fun. And second you want to make all the efforts of people who've already done what you blokes want to do and make their efforts even more redundant than they already are, push them further into the background.
You'll expect support from the existing cat sailors but you have no interest in doing the same yourselves. No it's already become a pissing competition amongst all of you to see who has control, who can get the boat out into the public arena first, who can design the best boat and who can make a good dollar out of this. What a crock!

And have you done a market survey? I mean, is there a market for what you are doing. How many orders do you have? Are parents already lining up to buy or build this thing? I mean serious commitments to it? You've got the cart before the horse already, before you even get started.

And so the wheel turns and nothing changes except that there'll be more moulds rotting in back yards and more cats sitting in sheds and more sailing clubs going to the wall because what is needed is NOT another cat. The very last thing the cat world needs is another small cat!
What we need is people to support each other. We need people to get off their butts and help out at the club, help the kids and their parents by encouraging them to come down to the club and have a sail. Jumping in the rescue boats and coaching and organising fun races for the kids and to get this done, we should be making cheap boats available, like less than $1000, not $2000 or $3000 but $500 to $1000. Not 160, 180 200 hours in the shed building something which already exists. Cheap boats are there if you go looking but that's not cool, there no kudos in that.

No I'm sorry guys, this is just rubbish and all it will do is cause lots more people to become disillusioned with the whole silly mess and go bowling.

IMO Its not really rubbish Berny because I've been looking for a suitable cat but didn't know what was needed and whats not there for clubs is
Light weight
12ft
Easy to build
Rig to suit particular environment
The boat I saw is not perfect but is a great start. We all want different things out of this project. I will get some boats built as will others so it will get kids on cats off dinghys. If some want to get all serious and succeed in building a F12 class that only accepts certain boats good luck to them, it may be perfect in their part of the globe, but it wouldn't work in my part of Australia because its doing the Hobie exclusion thing which is crap.
I would never have seen the small cat without this forum because the owner lurks on the darkside but recognised my name from the posts. Sorry Berny cant go bowling with ya gotta clean the shed up to build some cats
regards

Berny,

There are very, very few about in the US, at least away from the coasts. What does exist are Bravos, outside of this the only thing available here are old H14's with soft decks and Waves (both 240# boats). The market here is the exact same population numbers that were available in the 70's and 80's (the baby boomer generation). The millenium generation, born between 1981 and 1995 is the market. There are large enough numbers to carve a chunk of cat sailors out of them, most of the older ones think Hobie 16's are cool. USA is primed and ready IMO. But I'm an optimist.

Sincere thanks for your views and inputs.

A Formula (box rule) is the way to go if the inclusion of existing cat classes is a goal. It certainly was a key goal during the development of the F16 class. I thought it wouldn't be the same in the F12 case because the four designs perform a lot better than the rotomolded cats, making inclusiveness of existing classes a formality: no kid would want the slower boats.

But if we focus on marketing instead of racing, manufacturers will certainly welcome the fact that one or more of their production cats is compliant to a Formula - something that can only happen with a OD class if they decide to produce it from scratch (i.e.: Hobie Tiger).

Berny,

you're coming across as tired and bitter. I'm not sure if this angst is because of your own experiance with the F14 or whether its because you don't think the people working here value what you achieved with that design or what.

Like many here I really like your boat and while I've not seen it in the flesh my understanding is that the performance is quite amazing. That being said, I believe if you were targeting youth catamaran sailors in the current market you missed your mark slightly. I was 18 before I could afford to buy a 15 year old Hobie 14 and until then I was stuck sailing other people's boats. As you are aware in the current situation most kids are learning to sail on monos and the ones who have parents willing and able to buy them new boats are as a result typically looking towards monohulls.

If the F12 initiative is successful then there should be a whole new market for F14 designs as kids grow out of these beginner boats and start looking for the next step. No-one is going to go from an F12 to an A Class.

It is my belief that the majority of people posting here are looking for a low cost entry level way to get kids sailing cats. Something which I thought was also a priority of yours.

In answer to your questions about market surveys etc the fact is that RG has 5 people about to start building his design and I have 3. This is all based on word of mouth and posts on this site. Once these boats are in the water they will then be able to be used for further promotion in magazines etc. But to have 8 people willing to spend their own cash based upon a concept alone suggests we are on the right track.

If you have actual valuable feedback, I'm sure it would be very welcome as you have in fact been there and done that, however, if you are going to continue to sit on the side lines taking pot shots at others please take it to Sailing Anarchy where that sort of thing is more welcome.

Regards

Chris Tucker

Hi all,
had a meeting this afternoon with the builders of 4 cats of my design and some changes were agreed to that I think will benefit everyone.
First, we swapped plywood for 6mm foam core with E-Glass skins that comes in pre-made sheets (or you can easily make them yourselves) and all of the internal stiffning will be replaced with sine wave stiffners, so we end up with just 2 bulkheads and the centercase inside. Next change is that it will be built in 2 halves in females frames. The last change is that we are going for a curved traveler track and a boomless rig. All of the above will ultimately make the boat cheaper and lighter and faster to build. Hulls have now been scaled to 3.8m along with some cosmetic changes to make the boat look nicer and float better. Will get some new pics finished shortly to show the changes.

Cheers
RG