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Re: Tornado ruled out by ISAF [Re: Mark Schneider] #122659
11/09/07 11:56 AM
11/09/07 11:56 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 146
Crofton, MD
Todd Berget Offline
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Crofton, MD
Mark,

I'm curious what you mean by the A class being the worst example of what no olympics mean. Please elaborate.

I think the best case scenario would be the T class ending up like the A class. Worst case is extinction and a rise to the F18 class. Maybe this will open the door for a new 20 foot class to emerge (perhaps Volvo will want to kick start things a bit). Certainly will be an strange future ahead...

T


Todd Nacra 20 www.wrcra.org
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Tornado ruled out by ISAF [Re: Todd Berget] #122660
11/09/07 12:02 PM
11/09/07 12:02 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 887
Crofton, MD
Chris9 Offline
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Quote
Please elaborate


Did you really just do that? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Oh, Hey Mark. Yeah, I know I owe you a tele call.


Chris Allen
Nacra 20 Gertie
www.wrcra.org
Re: Tornado ruled out by ISAF [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #122661
11/09/07 12:22 PM
11/09/07 12:22 PM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,226
Atlanta
bvining Offline
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bvining  Offline
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Quote
we (catsailors) just lost our R&D department, all executive accounts and the whole PR budget to put it into business terms.


I think you guys are overreacting. Of the 100 Acat sailors in Fl, how many are contendor for Olympic medals? Charlie? Glenn and Mitch? Goran Marstrom is probably pissed, but he'll keep building stuff for the aerospace industry and making Acats, he's not going out of business.

The biggest R&D we've seen this year was from the CClass with foiling wing cats and Ben building a wing for his Acat.

Yes, I agree it sucks, but its not the end of the world as we know it. The sky isnt falling and catsailing isnt going disappear.

Bill

Re: Tornado ruled out by ISAF [Re: bvining] #122662
11/09/07 12:29 PM
11/09/07 12:29 PM
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Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
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I think you see the R&D thing from the wrong angle Bill. The Tornado class has been the R&D department for catsailing for everyday use. The C class has become so specialized that it's like comparing NASA to what GM has got going. The C class do fantastic stuff, and Ben might have taken a step towards bringing the technology into everyday use, but I still think the development done in the Tornado class has been more important.

This is not the end of catsailing for sure, but it is changing as we dont have olympic status anymore. A lot of money came trough the olympic status.

Re: Tornado ruled out by ISAF [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #122663
11/09/07 12:43 PM
11/09/07 12:43 PM
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South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Quote
I think you see the R&D thing from the wrong angle Bill. The Tornado class has been the R&D department for catsailing for everyday use. The C class has become so specialized that it's like comparing NASA to what GM has got going. The C class do fantastic stuff, and Ben might have taken a step towards bringing the technology into everyday use, but I still think the development done in the Tornado class has been more important.

This is not the end of catsailing for sure, but it is changing as we dont have olympic status anymore. A lot of money came trough the olympic status.


I disagree that the R&D is going away. I do agree that we've lost a prestigious position in the sailing community.

F18s, Acats, F16...all these open classes continue to see a pretty dramatic amount of development. I do believe that many F18 developments found their way into the Tornado class.


Jake Kohl
Re: Tornado ruled out by ISAF [Re: Jake] #122664
11/09/07 12:44 PM
11/09/07 12:44 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528
Looking for a Job, I got credi...
scooby_simon Offline
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Looking for a Job, I got credi...
this makes interesting reading.

Who is Charlie Cook ?

Quote
Charlie Cook (USA) was strongly in favor of the Keelboats and a proponent of dropping the multihull.


F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD

I also talk sport here
Re: Tornado ruled out by ISAF [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #122665
11/09/07 12:45 PM
11/09/07 12:45 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Mark Schneider  Offline
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The fate of the Tornado Class.... Doomed in North America

In North America, they have only held three regattas a year for the past several years.

the Miami OCR's.... the North Americans, the week before the OCR's and one other event, The US Nationals, usually in the Fall. (Cork has been dead for years)

So.... No Olympics... means. no invite to the OCRs... which means the RC and venue for the North Americans is also gone.

There is no club in the USA that has more then a single active Tornado in residence so... You have no club organization to step up and run OD events to keep the class alive. Not to mention the distances, time and cost in going to a 6 boat regatta.

As a two man cat... the Tornado has no equal... it's not even close! The refinements in the boat allow the crew teamwork and techinical skill to determine the outcome. Nothing will ever come close again without the stamp of the 5 ring circus. Sigh.... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

So... who exactly is the NATA class president who will be making these future events happen. He /She will be sainted if they can pull this one out of the grave. But with at most 15 to 20 boats in North America and 6 to 10 competitors.... You are hard pressed to see how you could keep a viable racing schedule going. Especially when the young teams, (Merick, Wierda, Jason) just had the carrot removed from the game and the senior teams are approaching retirment, (Lovel, Daniel, Chu).

As a beach boat.... You have think twice as well... Righting a Tornado without assistance is not trivial. 50% of the time... you might need a tow boat... The Tornado will join the other members of the dead boat society.

I think the nail is in the coffin... the OD Tornado activity is over after China!


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Tornado ruled out by ISAF [Re: Jake] #122666
11/09/07 12:54 PM
11/09/07 12:54 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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F18 developments???

Yeah... Like which one? ... I can't think of a single developement. I think the Tornado class has developed and led EVERY improvement you see in the production spin boats. You have 50 teams all trying to come up with a better way of doing it... AND... they are working 24/7 at it... What company would not go to school on the Tornado fleet. Hell... they just buy the talent.

The A class rules allows hull and mast and sail changes... but the hard wing sail may obsolete the entire fleet unless rule changes are put in.

In fact the F18 wants to LIMIT development. ... the F18 mantra is to also a SMALL amount of developement to keep more boats in the game.


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Tornado ruled out by ISAF [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #122667
11/09/07 01:03 PM
11/09/07 01:03 PM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,226
Atlanta
bvining Offline
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Yeah, I hear you Rolf, and you have a point... My spin on my HT is based on the Tornado spin shape, and other classes (F16, F18) probably have seen the same influence on sails from the Tornado.

But on the other hand, my Acat sail maker and my Acat mast maker dont have any involvement in T's and the guy who designed my hulls doesnt either.

At to take that point a bit farther, nobody adopted the Marstrom carbon snuffer tubes that the T guys use. Johnstone put one on his HT and one other guy bought one but thats it. No F16's or F18's use any of the snails or Carbon tube snuffers.

So how much more sail R&D could we expect out of the T's?

The T's still used centerboards, so they didnt offer any impact on gybing boards, Tfoil rudders or other foil ideas that might translate.

Did the Velocitek, or the new single strand kevlar rigging come from the T's? Other classes has carbon masts before the T's.

Re: Tornado ruled out by ISAF [Re: bvining] #122668
11/09/07 01:40 PM
11/09/07 01:40 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
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Except for the snuffer tubes, all good examples. You could also have mentioned the square tops, which I think were developed out of class (remember the Tornado Sport effort Mitch and Herbie put together?). However I still think we loose big time on not having the olympians develop stuff for us. There will still be development, as both you and Jake have pointed out, but I think we will not see the same investment of time and money.


Mark, I also think the Tornado is dead as a dodo for the next years in the US and other places. My hope is that the class rules now will evolve a bit and we will see the class going in a different direction. You know what I am talking about..

Re: Tornado ruled out by ISAF [Re: scooby_simon] #122669
11/09/07 01:46 PM
11/09/07 01:46 PM
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Posts: 1,187
38.912, -95.37
_flatlander_ Offline
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Quote
this makes interesting reading.

Who is Charlie Cook ?

Quote
Charlie Cook (USA) was strongly in favor of the Keelboats and a proponent of dropping the multihull.
From Scuttlebutt 11/05/2005, an editorial by Charley. My attention was arowsed by the first line of the second paragraph, and the very last sentence.

GUEST EDITORIAL -- Charlie Cook
The Olympic format agreed upon last week was the result of a careful
balancing of the interests of all stakeholders: sailors, sponsors, media
and event organizers. Olympic aspirants spend years and countless sums
training for and competing in the Olympics. They put their lives on hold.
They want to compete in a fair event, with the best sailors winning the
Gold. They don't want a format that amounts to nothing more than a lottery.
Corporate sponsorship has become the lifeblood of Olympic campaigns. Media
exposure is the currency of those sponsors. The more live TV coverage and
other opportunities for exposure the better - for all sailors.

Literally billions of dollars are paid to the IOC for the right to cover
the Olympics. The IOC have made clear that sports must adapt to this
reality or be eliminated from the Olympics. This is an issue at all levels
of the sport. Try explaining to an Editor who sends a reporter and
photographer to an event why the winner isn't event sailing on the last
day. The organizers of Grade 1 and World and Continental Championships of
Olympic classes are also stakeholders. Whatever format was decided upon for
the Olympics is likely to trickle down to other events. Clubs want a format
that's inclusive, and easily managed.

Some of the more radical proposals included an elimination series leading
to a three race winner-takes-all final series for four boats. That would
certainly have made for interesting live TV coverage on the final day of
each event. But, especially given conditions expected in Qingdao, it would
have reduced the competition to a lottery. In the end, the sport would have
been changed, in many ways for the worse.

The format settled upon represented a compromise in the best sense of the
word. The new format addresses the interests of all stakeholders. The
potential for a lottery is greatly reduced; the best sailors will win the
medals. A larger number of sailors will gain exposure through live TV
coverage. The final race will be meaningful and interesting to the media.
Finally, this is a format that organizers of Grade 1 events and class
championships can implement.

Early returns have been overwhelmingly positive. The IOC are reported to be
pleased with the format. The mainstream media think it's a good approach.
Most importantly, it didn't "change the game" for the most important
stakeholder - sailors around the World. -- Charley Cook, ISAF Council
Member (Group P - USA and CAN)


John H16, H14
Re: Tornado ruled out by ISAF [Re: _flatlander_] #122670
11/09/07 01:59 PM
11/09/07 01:59 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
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S
stuartoffer Offline
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Tornado News
Complete News Listings and Archives

ISAF Delares Itself To Be Monohulls Only - No Multihulls in 2012
internet - Friday, November 09, 2007
By mpg

The ISAF Council meeting began with a discussion of the recommended Events Committee slate which included Multihull Open (Event). However, it did not include a Keelboat event for either Men or Women.
Primarily because of this, the Events Committee slate of events narrowly missed receiving a majority: the vote was 16 In Favor, 19 Against, 1 Abstain

The Council then started over again, and voted for 6 Events for Men/Open & 4 Events for Women.
6 & 4 passed easily: the vote was 29 In Favor, 7 Against, 0 Abstain

The Council then voted on the Events that they wanted. Both Keelboats were voted in. The Multihull and one of the 2 person Womens dinghies were voted out.

Notes on the Council Discussion: Chris Atkins (GBR) was very strongly in favor of the Events Committee slate (which included a Multihull(Open) Event
Eric Tulla (PUR) was strongly in favor of the lasers, simple dinghies, and multihulls that are widely used by youth in his region.

Charlie Cook (USA) was strongly in favor of the Keelboats and a proponent of dropping the multihull.
John Cribbin (IRL) was strongly in favor of the Keelboats and strongly opposed to any 'Open' event.

Theresa Lara (VEN) strong support for Chris Atkins’ position
Spain, France, & Russia also supported multihulls. France and Russia voted against the Events Committee slate because they wanted keelboats to be added.

So plaese don't blame the RYA, they may not have helped!!!, BUT on this one Im afraid the problem may lie closer to your home than mine. Im afraid the expression a leopard never changes its spots comes to mind!!!!!!!

Maybe the USA should look who represents them at ISAF?

Re: Tornado ruled out by ISAF [Re: Catfan] #122671
11/09/07 02:31 PM
11/09/07 02:31 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 953
Western Australia
Stewart Offline
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Western Australia
Well..
Since ISAF has made this decision.. Then Cat classes do not need to hold to ISAF protocols.. Start a ICAF..
The new ICAF can declare its own membership and rules..

Decide which classes are International National and state events..

Re: Tornado ruled out by ISAF [Re: Stewart] #122672
11/09/07 02:48 PM
11/09/07 02:48 PM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 271
Atlanta, Ga
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I can't help but think too much emphasis is being placed on the Olympics.
If it is believed that the loss of catamarans in the Olympics will greatly hurt the sport, then it must be believed that the Olympics greatly helped the sport, since something cannot greatly hurt if it didn't greatly help. But look at how cat sailing has diminished since the late 80's early 90's...all during which catamarans were represented. How much could it have possibly helped? How many cat sailors have you known that got into the sport because of the Olympics, or truly sail only because of their aspirations to make it there?

I also have trouble believing the loss of the Tornado will cause a decrease in the loss of R&D. It's reasonable to say that Tornados led the way in many developments, but problematic to say that without them we would not be where we are today. Correlation does not imply causation.

I do want to say though that I feel for all you Tornado sailors out there. You guys got screwed. Some people obviously had their head up their @$& when voting.

by the way, ICAF...would be sick.(FTW)



Re: Tornado ruled out by ISAF [Re: Stewart] #122673
11/09/07 02:52 PM
11/09/07 02:52 PM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 17
O
Olli Offline
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Quote
Well..
Since ISAF has made this decision.. Then Cat classes do not need to hold to ISAF protocols.. Start a ICAF..
The new ICAF can declare its own membership and rules..

Decide which classes are International National and state events..


I totally AGREE. No reason to continue to send our money to ISAF. Their 'world sailing' events are crap anyway. Totally not organized for the sailors.

We need to organize similar to what the kayakers did and form our own international class that will represent us. Through proper lobbying we could even get our class back into the olympics in the future.

Re: Tornado ruled out by ISAF [Re: Mark Schneider] #122674
11/09/07 03:34 PM
11/09/07 03:34 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Quote
F18 developments???

Yeah... Like which one? ... I can't think of a single developement. I think the Tornado class has developed and led EVERY improvement you see in the production spin boats. You have 50 teams all trying to come up with a better way of doing it... AND... they are working 24/7 at it... What company would not go to school on the Tornado fleet. Hell... they just buy the talent.

The A class rules allows hull and mast and sail changes... but the hard wing sail may obsolete the entire fleet unless rule changes are put in.

In fact the F18 wants to LIMIT development. ... the F18 mantra is to also a SMALL amount of developement to keep more boats in the game.


Mark,

Tornado class has limited development FOREVER! Open your eyes dude. Who had square top sails first? It wasn't the tornado. Carbon masts? not the tornado. Spinnakers? not the tornado. Snuffers? not the tornado. Gybing Daggerboards? definitely not the tornado...as a matter of fact, those boards are REALLY old school.

The tornado class has gone a long way with sail development and I think they have been cause for a good bit of refinement in spinnaker shape - but new sail shapes are coming out monthly on F18s and lately there is a big initiative for refinement of F18 foils. New light-weight (and low cost) aluminum wing masts are now available that rival carbon...many changes...many developments.

Don't mis-interpret me here - I love the tornado and hate the fact that it's now omitted from the olympics in '12. I've got some harsh words I would like to toss at our buddy "Charlie" too. But to say that catamaran development is dead now that 12 active boats in the US don't have a golden nugget is not being clear headed.


Jake Kohl
Re: Tornado ruled out by ISAF [Re: Mark Schneider] #122675
11/09/07 04:23 PM
11/09/07 04:23 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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The F18 class was practically on its own with respect to developping the asymmetric spinnaker on cats for the first few years. The Tornado's were rather late to that game.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Tornado ruled out by ISAF [Re: Stewart] #122676
11/09/07 04:27 PM
11/09/07 04:27 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Yes, lets diss ISAF and reclaim the name "World Championships" without paying protection money to ISAF !

I'm all for it.

Like Janet Jackson sang a while ago :"What have you done for me lately ?"

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 11/09/07 04:28 PM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Tornado ruled out by ISAF [Re: Wouter] #122677
11/09/07 04:33 PM
11/09/07 04:33 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
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Thats a tought. How many catamaran sailors compete in monohulls as well?

Re: Tornado ruled out by ISAF [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #122678
11/09/07 04:39 PM
11/09/07 04:39 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 63
jdaf31r Offline
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On the bright side maybe those T's will go down in price and I will be able to get one to compliment the F18HT.

Jon

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