If you have not read this declaration I suggest you do so, as it could have far reaching implications on the future of the F12 concept. This is a very important issue and should be carefully considered before proceeding forward.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~whijink/F12/

Regards,
Bob

Indeed, everybody should take careful notice of that declaration.

It has been on the F12 website for some time now, but it seems fashionable on this forum to read as little as possible.

Everybody also take note of my intention to reinvest into the class, a thing that will be impossible to enforce when the ownership rights have not been clearly defined from the beginning.

Wouter

Wouter may well have completely honorable intentions, but I don't see any way that the statement there has any legal standing. If there was a sticky post on the forum with that information then maybe a case could be made, but I strongly doubt that people participating here are doing so under agreement with the conditions outlined there.

Alot of the contributions so far have been pretty meger in usefulness and the bulk is just general banter and suggestion that ae never covered by any ownership rights anyway. The contributions made by Grob, Retired Geek and others that were indeed valuable were made under full knowlegde of the given statement. Lately a few more volunteers have approach me and the ones who have taken on a job in the project have been made well aware of this statement. I have yet to encounter a single person who pulled out of the project because of it.

Grob is the only one who contributed prior to the creation of final version of this statement but we have agreed that the F12 project has full rights to using his contributions. Additionally, any contributions made on the forum are by definition part of the public domain and any and all ownership rights will have been lost as result anyway.

As such all is fair.

We must also remember that ownership rights is widely misunderstood by the general public (what else is new) it has only any meaning when dealing with economic exploitation of the object covered by ownership right. No law system in the world forbids any person to legally copy any product as long as it is for his own personal use. So this statement will not affect 99% of the F12 enthousiasts in any way. It only impacts on the persons seeking to economically exploit the F12 and the F12 class. And I feel strongly that the persons doing the bulk of the work should also be the ones to have first rights to this. Currently the pool of active volunteers is very small indeed.

Wouter

If that's the case, then that's fine. I trust the other main contributors are on board also.



Which is what I would have thought - hence my earlier comment. Do I infer then that the statement on the F12 site refers to contributions that are made to you directly, i.e. by email?

Mark.

Not all have sought to cooperate with the group formed around me.

For example, Scarecrow and Phill Brander are possibly doing 1-man projects at this time. Grob (Gareth) has produce some drawings of an alternative design in the spring time 2007 but I think that design is now dormant. Phill calls his project the Blade 12 and has done so ever since it inception some 5 years ago. It is basically a different project from the F12 I started in public a year ago. It aims at different design goals and our disagreement was the cause that I started a different project under the name F12. I have no detailed info about either project except their statements (and drawings) as publicized on the F12 forum.

So how do we define being "on board" ?




Not exclusively. I reserve any and all rights that can be had in relation to the F12. Private communication is only a part of that. You will never see me explicitely define the area to which rights are retained as that is a legal trap. As by the same action I loose the rights to area's I may have overlooked.

Wouter

With legal point of view as long as there is no F12 trademark that cannot be reserved, so nothing prevents anyone creating a another project called F12 with different set of rules.

Everything posted here is public domain by nature. Also forums rules etc applies over such licenses, so I would be very careful and get written permissions about the authors to claim ownership to their ideas posted here.

It's a bit premature haggling over rights in my opinion. Besides, I think this need to be a coorperation to succeed, and it will not work out if someone wants to control the "rights" and other "stuff".

I think what you're saying (correct me if I'm wrong) is that you claim ownership of anything that ends up being part of a design/class associated with the name F12 that isn't already plainly in the public domain or encumbered by pre-existing intellectual property rights.

How do you see this working in relation to RG's claims to the F12 trademarks and web domains?

Also if someone develops a 12' formula class (in the usual sense of the term, not the OD class you are working on), how would you view the use of the name Formula 12 for such a class and do you believe there would be a clear demarcation between any IPR associated with such a project and your own?

I'm not trying to pick a fight with anyone here, just want to make sure there is clarity on where people stand.

There is laws about protecting trademarks and one needs to apply for a one to protect it. Even then there is lot of court cases when someone tries exploit a well known trademark. So currently the name F12 is free game.

The domains are not controlled in any way, only if there is a trademark holder who wishes to enforce it's rights later then usually court case is needed or parties must make agreement. And in this case domains were granted before trademark was so even if RG wouldn't have trademark there would be a good case to keep the domains still because they were given before the trademark was applied.

With all legal this legal censored and my experience with open source software projects (we could see a common relation to this case) I would be really careful unless this is going to be one man project that is called F12. If others participate there must be a good license for ensuring that contributors get their share of control etc, otherwise there will be other competing projects.

I just wanted to point out that these must be considered when creating a license and everyone in the class needs to have their say. Also for creating a commercially viable product trademarks and such must be considered (maybe too early for that?).

Wouter…to take what Mark MT has brought up a step farther…. If you are working towards a one design 12 foot catamaran than why lay claim to the F12 name? It makes no sense for you to call your one design a Formula 12 (which by your own definition it is not) unless your intent is to block anyone from forming a true F12 class which would be in direct competition with your 12 foot one design.

Regards,
Bob

BOB,
Thanks for the heads up.
I was not aware of this as I've never been to that site before.
Does this mean if I post on this forum I lose all rights?

Regards,
Phill

Whatever you post on this forum is still your creation, but the risk is that others notice your ideas and either develop them or use them as-is. You will have to sue them to stop them, but your rights are the same. Your rights can and will vary with national laws tough.
Unless you have a patent or registered trademark (and you will have to register the trademark in all nations as far as I know) you will have what lawyers call an "interesting case". At least this is what I have learned over the years.

Claiming ownership of others ideas by generic default is a nice idea. I hereby claim ownership of "fast sails". Everybody who from now on builds "fast sails" will have to surrender their design to me so I can control the term "fast sails" <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Phill,

you're a designer in Australia, unless you register each individual design you have no rights (refer JS9000).

Wouter,

You can have every cent I ever make off the F12 because I couldn't have done it without you (and because I'm not charging and have no intention of ever charging for my design).

Oh and stop making the assumption people visit your web page.

I never been to that site either, until now that is. The ownership claim is an absolute joke, you have neither the time or money to develop your design, your asking other people to contribute theirs, including building a prototype out of their own pockets, but you want to claim ownership of the F12. An absolute bloody joke.

Get over yourself.

So the little man lays claim to everything F12 including what is said on this list!!... That's to funny wouter... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
Albert Einstein

hey guys, stop worrying about this....when I got the web addresses I deliberately got the .eu.com and .us.com addresses which cost a bit more but come with the benefit that they come with automatic trademark protection and limited copyright protections (and I have filed a logo...the F16 one with a 2 instead of the 6) that is worldwide and as I understand it is not contestable if you own the web address.
So, the offer still stands, all the above is free to "F12" whenever anyone stands up and wants to run it for the benefit of all on the basis of including all.
Cheers
RG

RG,

I'm happy to host the web site (and have started drafting up some pages). Could you please email me your f12 logo. I'll talk to my host about adding the secondary domain names.

Is there anyone out there who is good with web site development. I can do it but I'm sure others are more skilled than I.

Hi Scarecrow,
emailed you the logo a moment ago and after you let me know you have your host lined up, I'll send you the transfer codes (they are only good for 36 hours) so your host can set up the primary site plus the redirects from the others so we have blanket coverage.
Cheers
RG